| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Arcane Trickster approved.
This spell is actually pretty goodon the Druid list. It give the druid a cheap damage dealing spell that can be used as a base for metamgic spells. The thing that is great is that it makes Spell Focus(Conjuration) into not just a feat tax.
If there is a fix to be made it would be to half the damage progression. This way it would lose some power around lvl4-5 when it really shines, the power falls really quickly after that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's a matter of opinion.
It's really not.
It goes above and beyond the accepted norms of 1st level spells.
Touch Attack.
No SR.
No Save for Damage
D6/level
Save against Status Effect that is one of the nastier ones.
All in one.
Let's compare to some other spells
Magic Missle, Auto Hit but less damage. SR: Yes, no status effect.
Shocking Grasp, SR: Yes, Same Damage, Melee Touch, and no Status Effect.
Chill Touch, SR: Yes, Lower Damage, Melee Touch, Status Effect with a Save.
Ray of Enfeeblement, SR: Yes, No Damage, Ranged Touch, Status Effect with a Save for half.
Offensive spells by comparison shows that Snowball is significantly better. Changing it so that it doesn't punch through SR for free and lowering the status effect to Fatigued would bring it much more in line with 1st level spells.
Offensive spells by comparison shows that Snowball is significantly better. Changing it so that it doesn't punch through SR for free and lowering the status effect to Fatigued would bring it much more in line with 1st level spells.
I will add that the spell have to be in evocation.
I will add that the spell have to be in evocation.
Offensive spells by comparison shows that Snowball is significantly better. Changing it so that it doesn't punch through SR for free and lowering the status effect to Fatigued would bring it much more in line with 1st level spells.
It should probably be in Evocation though Conjuration junkies will have an issue with that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good, not too good. About par for course for 1st level spells.Demonstrably false. As has been shown in this very thread.
If it was, and it had, this thread would be over by now.
"Demonstrably false" is one of those terms that does not often apply.
That's a matter of opinion.It's really not.
It goes above and beyond the accepted norms of 1st level spells.
Touch Attack.
No SR.
No Save for Damage
D6/level
Save against Status Effect that is one of the nastier ones.All in one.
Let's compare to some other spells
Magic Missle, Auto Hit but less damage. SR: Yes, no status effect.
Shocking Grasp, SR: Yes, Same Damage, Melee Touch, and no Status Effect.
Chill Touch, SR: Yes, Lower Damage, Melee Touch, Status Effect with a Save.
Ray of Enfeeblement, SR: Yes, No Damage, Ranged Touch, Status Effect with a Save for half.
Offensive spells by comparison shows that Snowball is significantly better. Changing it so that it doesn't punch through SR for free and lowering the status effect to Fatigued would bring it much more in line with 1st level spells.
It may be better than quite a few DAMAGE spells (though I submit Magic Missile is at least as good considering it's auto-hit, Force damage, and has more CONSISTENT damage at 5d4+4 vs 5d6) but it still falls well within the bounds of power of other first level spells like Grease and Color Spray.
Also, it being a ranged attack isn't a total advantage. As someone else mentioned, a melee attack can afford to miss. Missing on a ranged touch attack wastes the whole spell.
At low levels, I'd even say it's not an advantage at all—that it evens out. Later on, it gets more lopsided (touch attacks get easier), but it's still not that big considering you're getting spells like spectral hand.
Also, it being a ranged attack isn't a total advantage. As someone else mentioned, a melee attack can afford to miss. Missing on a ranged touch attack wastes the whole spell.
At low levels, I'd even say it's not an advantage at all—that it evens out. Later on, it gets more lopsided (touch attacks get easier), but it's still not that big considering you're getting spells like spectral hand.
Very true; hitting touch AC is is not especially easy for a low-level wizard. the issue is that if you're up against things out the bestiary, touch AC tends to be close to static or actually scales downwards with level.
Really, it seems like most of the issues with snowball stem from metamagic-boosted versions of it at higher levels. At the levels where you would be using level one spell slots in combat, it's rather underwhelming.
I think it's a shade too powerful for a 1st-level spell. It's actually more powerful than scorching ray at caster levels 4-7! I have a problem with that, especially because I tend to run low-to-medium level games. (We usually top out around level 10-12.)
I've re-written snowball for my home game so that it works more like magic missile. On a successful ranged touch attack, a snowball does 1d6+1 cold damage, plus save or be staggered 1round. You throw one additional snowball for every two levels above 1st, to a maximum of five at 9th level. If you hit one creature with more than one snowball, it only receives one save vs the staggered effect. SR applies.
This version scales more like an exemplar 1st level spell (magic missile), and still does the standard max damage for a 1st-level spell. At no point will it overshadow an exemplar 2nd level spell (scorching ray), while still having an interesting effect.
This version also has the possibility of staggering multiple opponents for 1 round, although most opponents will likely make their saves by the time you're throwing 5 per round.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lump me in with those that say to add SR and to put it with evocation.
I say keep SR:No, but I'm fine with it being Evocation.
Haladir: Your rewrite if it was SR: No, would also be acceptable.
Adding SR and putting it into Evocation makes sense. It is still a great spell at that and I may suggest going a bit further even, but I have no dog in this fight.
. . .
And a half-orc falchion wielder can out damage that in a round every round. Falchions are OP, BAN-HAMMER!
SSSHHHHHH!... (or they'll ban falchions next).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
SSSHHHHHH!... (or they'll ban falchions next).. . .
And a half-orc falchion wielder can out damage that in a round every round. Falchions are OP, BAN-HAMMER!
You expect a two handed blade to be able to do decent damage? Might as well ask for water balloons to be a supported combat style.
You expect a two handed blade to be able to do decent damage? Might as well ask for water balloons to be a supported combat style.SSSHHHHHH!... (or they'll ban falchions next).. . .
And a half-orc falchion wielder can out damage that in a round every round. Falchions are OP, BAN-HAMMER!
Nope, nope. It's too easy to fill balloons with acid or poison and be abused this way... nothing says abuse like spending, at minimum, 84 gp a shot for 1d2 dex damage. We shall not mention casters milk venomous familiars and druids to milk venomous animal companions for free... as a class feature. :\
...it does make me want to see a ninja with an eldritch heritage green sting scorpion, though.
A save or die that is basically never useless? nerf please
Inb4 useless against high HD foes.
The DC is stuck at one, but stun is a nasty condition. Fighter and Ranger at level 5 still have awful will save, and stunned is a free disarm that also wrecks your ability to defend yourself and steals your turn. Vermin and undead are the ones who are immune, but that's a problem that almost every spell in the illusion/enchantment schools share. Color spray is pretty darned powerful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not sure if hte game needs more color spray -like 1st level spells. That kind of justification is wierd to me, basically no option would be broken because infinite simulacrum would be more broken.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fixing Snowball would be easy. SR: Yes. Problem solved.
Instead, someone decided to recycle the (bad) 3.5 idea of making conjurers better blasters than evokers.
Fixing Snowball would be easy. SR: Yes. Problem solved.
Instead, someone decided to recycle the (bad) 3.5 idea of making conjurers better blasters than evokers.
Tell that to dazing spells....
|
Necro to celebrate the stealth nerf this got in Ultimate Wilderness.
I couldn't find much in the way of discussion or announcements since it's release so I decided to perform unholy magics to bring this to peoples attention.
Snowball is now: Evocation [Cold, Water]
Added to the Bloodrager Spell list
Allows SR
No longer has any Save nor can it Stagger an opponent.
Finally, it is no longer the most powerful 1st level spell in the game. (Aside from Blood Money which should only existing in a MAX of 2-3 spellbooks on the entire planet)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't get what the fuss was about. If your spellcaster is spending rounds doing single target damage, you should be celebrating as a GM.
I am not certain as I do not play in P.F.S., however is the original version of Snowball not also still valid for play?
Old version :Equipment: all equipment except cauldron of overwhelming allies and spear of manhunting are legal for play; Spells: flurry of snowballs, ice spears, Irriseni mirror sight, and snowball; See the rules and Chronicle sheet download for additional sanctioned content.Spells: all spells on page 26 are legalNew version :Spells: The spells in this book are legal for play except forest's sense, and grasping vine. Vine strike is now legal for play.
EDIT : Oops, apparently not ...
Organized play uses the most updated version of an option unless the previous version is specifically exempted. People of the North now counts as a valid source to use Snowball, but all players must use the UW wording regardless of which source they own.
Organized play uses the most updated version of an option unless the previous version is specifically exempted. People of the North now counts as a valid source to use Snowball, but all players must use the UW wording regardless of which source they own.
Ah, thank you; I have updated my post to reflect this. Sorry to be a pain but I like to keep a reference document to track where I get things from - can you direct me to where this is stated? I have tried the Organized Play F.A.Q. to no avail, (unless I simply missed it!), My search-fu is weak today.
Page 73—Replace the text of the snowball spell with the following.
School evocation [cold, water]; Level bloodrager 1, druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one ball of ice and snow
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You throw a ball of elemental ice and snow at a single target as a ranged touch attack. The snowball deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level you have (maximum 5d6).
|
|
Don't get what the fuss was about. If your spellcaster is spending rounds doing single target damage, you should be celebrating as a GM.
Single target Damage on a Ranged Touch that has damage scaling better than any other 1st level spell, on top of applying Staggered on a failed Fort Save meant that is was essentially "best in class" for damage as well as Crowd Control/Utility.
It was just way too good, and I'm glad to see it updated, the power creep has been REAL, and pullback decisions like this help give me faith that Paizo is able to recognize balance problems, something that has been proven over and over to be an essential part of Organized Play.
Just imagine being a PFS GM at a level 1 table with 3 TOTALLY DIFFERENT spellcasters all of whom spend almost all of their 1st level slots on just two spells, Snowball and Color Spray.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm afraid I disagree on a number of points in regards to Snowball. Mostly, because I do not play PFS. Thus I have lee-way to adjust encounters against my player's tactics. However, it still peeves me off to no end when instead of just banning something from PFS they decide to ruin a good thing for everyone else as well.
As a GM without PFS restrictions, I have no problem with my party deciding to prepare nothing but Color Spray and Snowball. Mostly because the next encounter will now be composed of Skeletons, who are immune to cold damage, stagger, and mind-effecting effects. The whole party could have Snowball as an at will SLA and I could still make the campaign interesting for them.
In regards to the changes themselves the Stagger loss, while reasonable, is secondary in my mind to the fact that the spell now lacks SR pierce. As a conjuration effect, it should ignore SR similar to Acid Arrow as the elemental matter in question is conjured and not evoked. I'd have preferred that to stay as it messes with the consistency of conjured damage spells. That makes it harder to explain the difference between conjuration and evocation magic to any new players that join my group
Well, color me silly. I didn't notice that shift.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Removing SR, making it no longer stagger, and making it no longer a creation effect so you can throw it into antimagic areas? In my opinion... hitting all three of those at once was too much.
I'm speaking from experience having seen a witch build to use the non-nerfed version and seeing the girl whiffing it all the time as an elf witch with high dexterity. She does okay damage when it hits and *sometimes* staggers some poor sod, but the original wasn't as game-breaking as people make it out to be.
I tell you right now that the witch I play that's using spells like enlarge person and ear-piercing scream is crushing it in comparison, and since gaining level 3 to be using glitterdust and such? She goes well beyond snowball damage or stagger effects in power.
Ultimate Wilderness did the right thing in changing Snowball. The powergamers were doing everything they could to abuse it. When every caster and their familiar in the party uses Snowball - it's clearly problematic. Now, with the fix, it is much more reasonable and gives those same casters plenty to complain about.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With all three changes, now it's a terrible spell with pretty much no reason to ever pick it other than "my character likes cold spells". Things being what they are, though, I suppose a more gradual approach to the situation was doomed from the start. Back to everybody prepping magic missile as their 1st-level "single-target" blast again, I suppose.
Well, I would be fine if the spell get converted to evocation and allow SR.
I keep my 5 year old opinion.
With all three changes, now it's a terrible spell with pretty much no reason to ever pick it other than "my character likes cold spells". Things being what they are, though, I suppose a more gradual approach to the situation was doomed from the start. Back to everybody prepping magic missile as their 1st-level "single-target" blast again, I suppose.
I mostly agree, though Snowball does perform better than Magic Missiles from caster levels 2-8. Of course, anywhere past level 5 (or 6) you have 3rd level spells and they will blow any single target damage option out of the water especially as a level 1 spells.
Naturally, Magic Missiles never missing more than makes up for the damage loss but its still...something? (I guess Snowball being Cold could also help if you are a Sorcerer with the right bloodline or like to use Rime Spell.)
Seems like a great candidate for intensify spell. 10d6 single target damage for a 2nd-level slot is pretty good. Not as good as scorching ray, but it at least has the advantage of not doing fire damage.