So I was looking at how to get my inherent bonuses on my wizard in later levels. I saw a lot of convoluted ways to achieve a 52 strength to allow blood money to do your wish materials for you.
Is there something stopping you from simply using blood money in small increments to make diamonds worth about 3k each or so, and then combine those smaller diamonds with another fabricate spell later to achieve a 25k diamond and your wish material components?
Doesn't this also create a problem where you're just fabricating wealth?
You're misunderstanding, I use blood money to supply the materials for the fabricate (diamond dust) which after fabricate is cast becomes a real diamond. Had I not cast fabricate the mats would disappear.
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...um, yeah, I guess that's technically within the rules. But don't. Because yes, it creates a problem; using that method can give you essentially unlimited wealth. While that seems cool at first, you'd destabilize the game to the point is isn't worth playing any more. After all, why play a game you can't lose?
As a GM, I'd tell a player that tried that, "Congratulations, you win Pathfinder. Now go play something else while the rest of us have fun."
Spells with one round casting times explicitly don't take effect until the next round so you cant use Fabricate with blood money. Even if you could get the spell down to a standard action, fabricate doesn't change the material, only its arrangement so I would say the item fabricated would disappear at the end of the turn.Casting a spell with a cast time of 1 round (Fabricate with material limit in this case) is a full-round action. So if you were in combat and you cast say sleep on your turn (also 1 round casting time) and someone ran up, hit you after you finished (full round action), you wouldn't need to make a concentration check, because you weren't casting.
Now if you read blood money it actually creates the base material, which is used in the spell so you state, "I am creating a 500 pounds of iron for my fabricate spell", which is then transmuted by the fabricate spell into a 500 pound ingot (no craft check really needed). Bam 500 pounds of iron in ingot form from fabricate. Which doesn't disappear because it was used by a spell as a spell component (Yes it is cheesy as hell but I think it works).
Regards,
DRS
Wrong
Srd
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
IMO, Blood Money + Fabricate doesn't work, because Fabricate also targets the material to be converted, and that material doesn't work.
Anyways, the path to free wishes is not hard.
Ally casts restoration, holds the charge, readies an action.
You cast Blood Money, take one million strength damage, and immediately fall unconscious.
Ready action to apply Restoration.
You immediately wake up, proceed to cast Wish.
Is it within the rules to go to negative strength? I thought the absolute minimum was 0 for stats (and then bad stuff happened).
prototype00
This is one of the Classic "if you dont have a GM, you Can do it tricks".
It is not a unreasonable Reading of the rules. But it is unreasonable to expect it to be allowed.
This is one of the Classic "if you dont have a GM, you Can do it tricks".
It is not a unreasonable Reading of the rules. But it is unreasonable to expect it to be allowed.Actually, you should call for paizo to fix things like this. Instead of letting the game have terrible spells like blood money, why not ask for a better game?
Note: Blood money is instantly banned in my game because of totally broken of a concept it is.
I just play with friends. So the bad rules are just discarded. And it is the GM that get to bane the bad ones.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The real solution to all this is to just say no to blood money. It's easy to say no on Golarion - the only copy of the spell on the entire planet belongs to one of the runelords.
I mean, the spell is not only not CRB, it's not in any player-intended book. It's from the appendix of an AP.
Is it within the rules to go to negative strength? I thought the absolute minimum was 0 for stats (and then bad stuff happened).
prototype00
You can, explicitly, take ability damage beyond your actual stats.
Just a quick note for clarity, the required STR to combine Blood Money with Wish is 51, as the 25,000 GP cost of Wish requires 50 STR damage to cover and you need the remaining 1 point to not go unconscious. I personally feel that when you start casting a spell (even a long round one) with Blood Money the components are "in use" and thus won't turn back to blood unless your casting get interrupted. Using Wish is purely to increase how RAW tight the method is and allow for +5 Inherent stat boosts to all stats.
No, no, no. You absolutely must complete the spell in that round. This is because permanency is a two-round casting time.
I am not sure of the relevance with Permanency here.
You can, explicitly, take ability damage beyond your actual stats.Is it within the rules to go to negative strength? I thought the absolute minimum was 0 for stats (and then bad stuff happened).
prototype00
So if there were a way to get immunity to unconsciousness..... i don't know of any off-hand, but that would be quite cool, yes?
There is a JJ quote that if you start casting a "more than 1 standard action spell" with a Blood Money component the component is consumed when you start so you don't need to worry about it disappearing.
I believe he reversed his position in another quote later on in that thread if I recall the debate from way way back correctly. Regardless, it says you have to use the components before the end of the turn.
"Material components created by blood money transform back into blood at the end of the round if they have not been used as a material component."
And if you are using them as part of casting a spell that takes more then 1 round they are "being used as a material component" and thus will no revert unless the spell is interrupted. I only use Wish duplicating X spell because it is more RAW tight, thought truthfully I consider the explanation I gave above very RAW tight as well, just slightly less so.
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I'd munchkin it: You can't spend STR you don't have... so you can't do a wish with Blood Magic. Fabricate can't make magic items, nor can Blood Magic... so go ahead, I dare you to make a bunch of diamond dust and convert it to diamond... and then wish for something magical to happen. Good luck...
I would allow (per the spells) for someone to make gold coins, convert it to ingots (or vice versa) with the two spells. Again, limited based on their own Str total. The assumption that you can get 40000 gallons of blood in one go to cast the spell for wish is pretty ridiculous.
As written, its just horribly broken. All you need to correct the entire problem is a contingent restoration spell... 6th level spells and you have endless money/resources.... as written.
As you take the stat damage from the Blood Money spell, you fall unconscious if your STR is less than 0. Ergo, that is the reason for the aforementioned "limit" on the spell. You fall asleep, you can't finish your other spell that uses the materials, and well, it fails. And since NOBODY BUT YOU can use your blood (read the spell), then it can't be used as material components by other players. (if you don't cast another spell, it doesn't transform, and if you fall asleep while casting another spell it turns back to blood... so STR stat is a logical limit)
So 11 str could make 5000 gp in gold per casting with Fabricate (without falling asleep). Which is horribly broken.
@maouse: It seems to me that you're straining at gnats and swallowing camels in your objections. Blood money is capable of creating any valuable component, so the difference between gold coins and diamond dust is not particularly relevant, and the needed diamond for a wish spell is not itself a magical item -- no more magical than the bat guano you need for a fireball.
But even if you can only create 5000 gp in gold ingots with a Blood Money spell,... five castings of the spell and a jeweler give me the diamond I need. If I'm at a level where casting wish is an option, finding a jeweler is trivial.
Even the strength limitation is easily overcome. Where's that 30 Str BSF (Boris the Strong and Fair, obviously) again? I can use a spell like magic jar, cast form of the dragon and a few other tricks, and I've got as high a strength as I want or need.
What I'm really not seeing is why this is an issue. If you're of a high enough level to cast wish, 25k is pocket change -- and a CR 8 efreeti (which can grant you three wishes) is a nuisance that you can shake down for lunch money. So you're really pushing the rules to prevent me from doing in a complicated way what I can do very simply and directly.
I'd munchkin it: You can't spend STR you don't have... so you can't do a wish with Blood Magic. Fabricate can't make magic items, nor can Blood Magic... so go ahead, I dare you to make a bunch of diamond dust and convert it to diamond... and then wish for something magical to happen. Good luck...
I would allow (per the spells) for someone to make gold coins, convert it to ingots (or vice versa) with the two spells. Again, limited based on their own Str total. The assumption that you can get 40000 gallons of blood in one go to cast the spell for wish is pretty ridiculous.
As written, its just horribly broken. All you need to correct the entire problem is a contingent restoration spell... 6th level spells and you have endless money/resources.... as written.
As you take the stat damage from the Blood Money spell, you fall unconscious if your STR is less than 0. Ergo, that is the reason for the aforementioned "limit" on the spell. You fall asleep, you can't finish your other spell that uses the materials, and well, it fails. And since NOBODY BUT YOU can use your blood (read the spell), then it can't be used as material components by other players. (if you don't cast another spell, it doesn't transform, and if you fall asleep while casting another spell it turns back to blood... so STR stat is a logical limit)
So 11 str could make 5000 gp in gold per casting with Fabricate (without falling asleep). Which is horribly broken.
Right, that's why you get 51 STR... I think you are missing something here.
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So if there were a way to get immunity to unconsciousness..... i don't know of any off-hand, but that would be quite cool, yes?You can, explicitly, take ability damage beyond your actual stats.Is it within the rules to go to negative strength? I thought the absolute minimum was 0 for stats (and then bad stuff happened).
prototype00
I have a way to become immune to unconsciousness. Now, you have to be a special race that no GM would ever allow, but I'm pretty sure most GMs don't allow you to do free wishes either, so it may as well be said.
Ah, but is it immune to being trapped in a (sufficiently large) bucket?
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Ah, but is it immune to being trapped in a (sufficiently large) bucket?
You can, explicitly, take ability damage beyond your actual stats.Is it within the rules to go to negative strength? I thought the absolute minimum was 0 for stats (and then bad stuff happened).
prototype00
Do you have a citation for this, out of interest?
"Equals or exceeds" seems pretty clearly to allow you to take more damage than you have score.
Exactly.
Pupsocket called out an explicit wording. Inference from another statement is implicit (ie 'assumed'), not explicit. Splitting hairs I know, but it is very important for this discussion.
The reason it is important is because the 3.5 rulebook used the same wording, but had an additional line which was removed in pathfinder, likely to reduce word limit:
"Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0."
Thus, the 'greater or equal' is presumably there simply to ensure noone tries to claim you have to take exactly as much damage as you have remaining in order to go unconcious/die. There's no assumption in there about having an ability score less than 0 at all.
However,
Did the dev intentionally remove the qualifying statement in order to allow for lower than 0 ability scores, or was it simply a matter of an assumption that people understood they did not drop below 0, and so removed that text to save space? We simply cannot answer that without an FAQ, and I would expect table by table variation.
Pathfinder suffers a great deal from being based on the 3.5 system but with a truncated rules set that does not list examples or special conditions. In these circumstances it is often impossible to adjudicate a solution to an unclear rule because you can't use 3.5 rules text in PF, no matter how sensible they may be or how similar the rulesets are. As paizo divorces itself more and more from its predecessor, these issues are only going to become worse.
You interpretation is probably more correct RAW honestly, as much as it galls me. RAW in pathfinder often makes me want to shoot myself.
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What is the profession or crafting skill for turning diamond dust back into a diamond? What isthe crafting dc of this?
I was of the understanding that fabricate would let you succeed at a crafting check and i thought the whole reason why this wasnt possible was because turning diamond dust back into a diamond...there didnt seem to be a reliable agreement on which craft to use or even what the crafting woukd be without the spell.
Pupsocket called out an explicit wording. Inference from another statement is implicit (ie 'assumed'), not explicit. Splitting hairs I know, but it is very important for this discussion.
You are right. I don't have an explicit statement. What I do have is a clear, unambiguous inference.
The reason it is important is because the 3.5 rulebook used the same wording, but had an additional line which was removed in pathfinder, likely to reduce word limit:"Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0."
Thus, the 'greater or equal' is presumably there simply to ensure noone tries to claim you have to take exactly as much damage as you have remaining in order to go unconcious/die. There's no assumption in there about having an ability score less than 0 at all.
However,
Did the dev intentionally remove the qualifying statement in order to allow for lower than 0 ability scores, or was it simply a matter of an assumption that people understood they did not drop below 0, and so removed that text to save space? We simply cannot answer that without an FAQ, and I would expect table by table variation.
Pathfinder suffers a great deal from being based on the 3.5 system but with a truncated rules set that does not list examples or special conditions. In these circumstances it is often impossible to adjudicate a solution to an unclear rule because you can't use 3.5 rules text in PF, no matter how sensible they may be or how similar the rulesets are. As paizo divorces itself more and more from its predecessor, these issues are only going to become worse.
You interpretation is probably more correct RAW honestly, as much as it galls me. RAW in pathfinder often makes me want to shoot myself.
You are missing a vital piece: Ability damage works very differently in PF than it did in 3.5.
In PF, ability damage is a thing that happens to you, you accumulate levels of a thing called "ability damage" which causes some penalties, and if your ability damage equals or exceeds your matching ability score, you fall unconscious until such time that it is no longer the case.
At no point are you referencing a value of zero.
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I'd not noticed, but restoration has a casting time of three rounds, so you can't use a readied action to cast restoration. But! It's a touch spell, so I think you can cast it, hold the charge, and ready an action to touch someone...
Common missed thing, If I had a nickle for every time someone tried to do it in combat or when rounds mattered ;-)
You will have a big amount of table variance on your "cast blood money as a swift, fall unconscious, get a restoration, complete your round casting wish" thing. I for one, would say by the time you got a chance to act again to cast Wish the diamond would be gone.
Why would the diamond be gone? Someone casts the spell, readies an action with their held charge. You're still acting on the same turn you cast blood money. You take your swift action, you go unconscious, the cleric touches you with a readied action, and you say "I wish..." on the same turn.
I don't think there's specific rules support for the idea that if you are incapacitated mid-turn, you continue as normal during your turn. It would be within a game master's purview to rule that you don't recover consciousness soon enough to continue your actions.
I know that I'd consider the following sequence of events questionable.
* Enemy monster commences claw-claw-bite routine, hits with first claw.
* Friendly spellcaster uses readied action to incapacitate monster.
* Enemy spellcaster uses readied action to restore monster
* Enemy monster continues with second claw and bite attack.
Essentially, I'm not convinced that "recover consciousness" is a free action....
Fabricate allows you to make an instant crafting check to complete an item.
Diamond Dust to Diamonds is effectively a Make Whole spell, not a Fabricate. You can't craft Dust to Diamonds...you need raw diamonds to make finished diamonds. You could Fabricate Diamonds to diamond dust, however.
If the raw material for Fabricate is both the components and the target of the spell, you're effectively making a whole item out of blood money basic items. It would revert to base form at the beginning of the next round when it is not used up as a material component. A crafting check entitles reforming/reshaping an existing supply of raw material into something else. It's still made out of that raw material.
So, this item made out of your blood by blood money would get reshaped and thinned down to a completed item, and after the spell is done, the part that is not used up/winnowed down/reshaped by Blood Money hits the magic timer, is no longer a material component, and reverts back to blood.
So, no, it wouldn't work. You'd have to do the 51 Str route, make the whole item at once, and then consume it all.
Having something left from Fabricating it is no different then if you made up a 1000 gp item from Blood Money and then used up 500 gp of it. The part not used up reverts to blood. So it would be with Fabricate.
==Aelryinth
So if there were a way to get immunity to unconsciousness..... i don't know of any off-hand, but that would be quite cool, yes?
For the record a zero strength would leave you paralyzed not unconscious. They are different conditions.