So I'm quite fond of the Druid/monk multiclasses and was wondering how it actually stacks up against a straight Druid- 12d8 damage versus 9th lvl spells. I'm not actively campaigning that one is better than the other, but I'd just like to see which one people prefer and why.
If its an 'either or' situation, I prefer the Druid 20. I can see a level of monk... maybe two, on a druid build, but if I'm playing all those levels rather than starting off later in the career, I'd have a hard time choosing a level of monk because it delays spells. If you've gone melee druid and spells matter less, dipping monk probably seems even less attractive due to prioritizing strength and constitution, meaning you get less out of the wisdom bonus to armor class.
Honestly, I'd argue it's down to party role. I'm sure there will be the usual flurry (puns!) of people who insist full casting is the greatest thing in the system; however, a Druid 20 (at least, designed for casting) is not nearly as capable of managing the front-line for a party. Summoning takes time and, in my experience, dropping a massive load of difficult terrain or fog just infuriates more than helps. It's a much superior to be the occupying body the enemy must pass.
For utility, by the point you have 5th-level spells, you will gain little more versatility out of casting. For skills, 4+int still leaves you comfortable pulling your weight outside of combat.
I'd personally say that there's little in it besides "What is your role in the party?" which makes it seem rather apples vs. oranges.
The monk/druid is going to focus on wildshaping into something big and nasty to flurry with a big natural attack using Feral Combat Training. In general, if the straight druid flies up and away the monk/druids main tactic of full-attacking with big damage die natural attack is gone as he can't reach his enemy.
While I'm unfamiliar with the druid spell list, I'm sure there are some that will allow the straight druid to take down the behemoth. Assuming the monk/druid doesn't go first or can't kill him in the first attack I'm giving it to the straight druid.
Which is better for a party though is an entirely different and distinct question. If the party is built around having a wildshaped druid monk being the tank/damage dealer of the group then it can work very well. Causing lots of damage. Alternatively, if the party consists of a fighter, wizard, druid, rogue then the druid will be expected to provide more support to the party than being actively involved in combat himself. Which is better will really depend on a specific party and situation.
In a straight one on one, I would bet on the not multiclass druid.
. . . Wall of Stone: is a great control spell (wall of thrones is better). . . .
Yes. Druids summon kings. Kings tell you to get out of their country. Exceptionally diplomatically powerful. (Unless you are a Stark. Then you just die in the next book.)
We're discussing a druid20 casting antilife shell , which has Area "10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you" totally negating an AT LEAST Large monk10/druid10 with Reach at least 10 exactly in what manner ?
That's provided he doesn't for some odd reason choose to go elemental out of pure frustration.
You do realize this is ground for endless debate and DM fiat, but antilife shell isn't an end all, be all spell?
Taking flight and blasting away, or something like that, is still pretty valid for the druid20.
Curious...
Do they have a mix-match option for wildshaping?
Could you take different aspects of different creatures and mix them?
If not, this should be an option...
I know this is kinda off topic, forgive my musings on the subject.
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The level 20 Bard that manipulated the individuals into the fight and is running bets on who will win.
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So, you're saying that really high level spells can unbalance the game? That's a newsflash. Of course a spellcaster with access to lots of 9th level spells is probably going to win against just about any multi-classed character.
You could say put a lvl 20 druid against a lvl 20 Zen Archer Monk and see how that goes, or a lvl 20 druid against a lvl 20 Divine Focus Wizard.
Given the amount of time spent discussing level 20 performance on the forums, I must be in the minority of people who rarely play a level 20 character.
So, you're saying that really high level spells can unbalance the game? That's a newsflash. Of course a spellcaster with access to lots of 9th level spells is probably going to win against just about any multi-classed character.
You could say put a lvl 20 druid against a lvl 20 Zen Archer Monk and see how that goes, or a lvl 20 druid against a lvl 20 Divine Focus Wizard.
Given the amount of time spent discussing level 20 performance on the forums, I must be in the minority of people who rarely play a level 20 character.
No, we just have a lot of theory crafters.
In any event, I'd still put my money on the single class druid over the wildshaping monk/druid after about level 6 or so. Once the single class druid can fly away and cast spells at the hulking behemoth on the ground it goes south quickly.
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Given the amount of time spent discussing level 20 performance on the forums, I must be in the minority of people who rarely play a level 20 character.
If the game flat-out doesn't work at 20th level, then maybe the rules shouldn't pretend to go that high to begin with, until that can be corrected?
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So I'm quite fond of the Druid/monk multiclasses and was wondering how it actually stacks up against a straight Druid- 12d8 damage versus 9th lvl spells. I'm not actively campaigning that one is better than the other, but I'd just like to see which one people prefer and why.
With all due respect Prototype00, I think it is unfair to compare just the Unarmed damage to Level 9 Spells.
Saves, Defenses, Abilities, etc. would all play a very significant roll for both sides of the fence here.
If you want, I can supply you with a Qinggong-Flowing Monk/Druid I've created.
I'm not to keen on casters though, so I can't supply the same for a straight Druid.
Also, Speaking Of, I just got chewed out by a very ignorant and closed-minded GM on roll20.net, for an application I put in as either a Monk or Monk/Druid. I thought it was hilarious, and gave him a good burn. It's absurd how immature and offensive someone can be, to someone putting in an application with respect and sincerity.
I'd throw my Monk 16/Druid 4 into this any day!
Orc Barb 6/Druid 14!
Raging with mounts!
We're discussing a druid20 casting antilife shell , which has Area "10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you" totally negating an AT LEAST Large monk10/druid10 with Reach at least 10 exactly in what manner ?
That's provided he doesn't for some odd reason choose to go elemental out of pure frustration.You do realize this is ground for endless debate and DM fiat, but antilife shell isn't an end all, be all spell?
Taking flight and blasting away, or something like that, is still pretty valid for the druid20.
A wildshaped druid in elemental form does not count as an elemental, and would still be kept out by anti-life shell.
Summoning elementals would work, but the Druid 20 can do that too, and she's got elder elementals where the Druid/monk has only large.
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Monks and Druids have a slight synergy, the person who makes the most of it might very well have an advantage over the singleclasser, especially if he uses ambush tactics. Environment as it should will play a major factor.
I would have to say "slight" is an extreme understatement. :P Seriously. I don't know who would win, or with what tactics, but the synergy is impressive. All I study and optimize are Monks and Monk/Druids, and they are SO much fun to use!
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Druid 20, hands down. Wild Shaping into a monstrosity and 9th level spells and something like a T-Rex animal companion trumps ... well, just about everything, but especially the weaksauce of the monk.
Well, a multiclass still serves well, a 17 Druid/ 3 Monk will have (thanks to monastic legacy and a monk's belt) 8d8 damage on their favored natural attack (or unarmed strike if they want to combine it with multiattack) 9th level spells, wis to AC and quite decent saves.
Though only an even 10/10 split lets you hit for 12d8 damage.
On the subject of antilife shell, does planar wildshape make you an outsider? If so, antilife shell basically does nothing.
I did not mention wildshape because the straight druid and the monk/druid are basically equally as good at wildshaping due to shaping focus (wildshape stops improving at 14th level with huge elementals).
Of course the Monk/Druid does more damage while wildshaped than a straight druid.
prototype00
Yeah, it's a little bit suspect when people say, "Well, maybe the druid 20 is a suicidal pacificst who spends his actions casting plant growth and otherwise lets the druid/monk kill him, so obviously they're evenly matched except for player skill."
Let's assume equal player skill to begin with, then look at the likely results. For a valid experiment -- even a though experiment -- we get only one (1) independent variable.
On the subject of antilife shell, does planar wildshape make you an outsider? If so, antilife shell basically does nothing.
I'd have thought it was a non-argument the moment one used PvP in a largely co-operative game.
But if we're doing that, the Druid 20 never has to stick around if the fight goes south - he can just teleport out. Ergo, by the ability to run away, losing is eliminated for the Druid 20. Hence, I'd argue any fight between the 2, overall, the Druid 20 has won. If he needs to run first, he can come back for a second round, fully prepared.
I think full caster level always beats out whatever benefits you might get from the other class, whatever it may be.
There is still always the option of pulling out your Qinggong powers to deal with things like antilife shell. Learning Mighty fist of the earth is actually not the worst idea ever if you're this dedicated to melee attacks, and I suppose an Oread druid expecting a druid on druid fight could totally prepare it in his 1st level spell slots. Emergency ranged options are a nice thing to have. Now you just need to convince your DM to let your Behemoth Hippo hold a rod of lesser quicken in his mouth ;)
a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid i[n] a straight fight.
If by "straight fight" you mean no animal companions and no spells, then, maybe. Otherwise... wut.
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Uhmm, fights like this always go like this:
round 1: non-druid does whatever he wants, pure druid casts Euphoric Tranquility on non-druid. No save, and you can't attack, cast spells or Run away.
Fight's over at this point, all that's left is dropping the non-druid into a box and going home.
Silly argument.
Given the amount of time spent discussing level 20 performance on the forums, I must be in the minority of people who rarely play a level 20 character.
It takes a lot of time for a group to get there. In addition, even if you have a group that is together for that long, a GM that can actually deal with it and wants to is another problem. Then the players are also a factor. The higher you go in level the more strain it puts on a GM to run it, while having fun.
So I'm quite fond of the Druid/monk multiclasses and was wondering how it actually stacks up against a straight Druid- 12d8 damage versus 9th lvl spells. I'm not actively campaigning that one is better than the other, but I'd just like to see which one people prefer and why.With all due respect Prototype00, I think it is unfair to compare just the Unarmed damage to Level 9 Spells.
Saves, Defenses, Abilities, etc. would all play a very significant roll for both sides of the fence here.
If you want, I can supply you with a Qinggong-Flowing Monk/Druid I've created.
I'm not to keen on casters though, so I can't supply the same for a straight Druid.
Also, Speaking Of, I just got chewed out by a very ignorant and closed-minded GM on roll20.net, for an application I put in as either a Monk or Monk/Druid. I thought it was hilarious, and gave him a good burn. It's absurd how immature and offensive someone can be, to someone putting in an application with respect and sincerity.
I am bored. If you give me the link I will entertain myself with him for a while. :)
a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
What? From the ground? Good luck with that, your weapons wont being doing much from down there. Except if you have a bow...oh wait windwall and fickle winds.
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I seriously doubt that.a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
glad to know you dont know how good going in surprise, having a +20 to your inititive, and being able to kill a 200 hp characte rin one hit is.
before the first druid would even be able to act you would be on him and have killed him.
a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
Define "Straight fight"
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I seriously doubt that.a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
glad to know you dont know how good going in surprise, having a +20 to your inititive, and being able to kill a 200 hp characte rin one hit is.
before the first druid would even be able to act you would be on him and have killed him.
What? From the ground? Good luck with that, your weapons wont being doing much from down there. Except if you have a bow...oh wait windwall and fickle winds.
someone has arrows?
Define "Straight fight"a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
you can see each other, or druid (full) is ambushing, then you roll dice and the sohei goes first , every time because of the sohei's initiative class feature. no pre combat buffs or spell casting!
level 8 druid can earth glide ALSO!! and why does everyone keep talking about arrows?!someone has arrows?Do arrows go through the ground? Because a level 20 druid has no reason not to be earth gliding pretty much all of the time.
In case someone takes an arrow to the knee...cuz then you're a town guard.
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In case someone takes an arrow to the knee...cuz then you're a town guard.level 8 druid can earth glide ALSO!! and why does everyone keep talking about arrows?!someone has arrows?Do arrows go through the ground? Because a level 20 druid has no reason not to be earth gliding pretty much all of the time.
i understand thank you. lol that was the funniest "arrow to the knee" ive heard in a long time.
Because they are flying and out of reach
how do you guys figure a monk 12/ druid 8 cant also fly?
I seriously doubt that.a 12 sohei/ 8 druid will crush a 20 druid is a straight fight.
glad to know you dont know how good going in surprise, having a +20 to your inititive, and being able to kill a 200 hp characte rin one hit is.
before the first druid would even be able to act you would be on him and have killed him.
200 hit points is not hard to get by level 20. Even a D6 class can have over 200 hit points by level 20.
How are you going to guarantee that you can do 200 hit points with one hit? For the purpose of this question we will assume no nat 1 is rolled.