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I'm working on a new character for PFS and I have been tossing around a bunch of ideas, ranging from Voodoo Witch Doctor styled Witches to Zangief styled Tetori Monks but as I try towork out what character to play, a realization came over me.
Where are all the Paladins? I have been playing regularly for the past few months now and not once have I seen a Paladin. And I have a theory why. And it is amazing because it is a single word theory: Murderhobo.
Is it impossible to play a Paladin in PFS? My current character, someone I thought was going to be a morally gray Rogue, has been appalled at some of the things that have happened in our weekly games and I wonder if a Paladin, even one who is not Lawful Stupid, could actually hang out with the people associated with the society.
Also, I just realized that a good chunk of people will read this and be like "Yeah, whats the problem?"
What do you guys think? Am I correct or is there another reason why Paladins just aren't represented in PFS often? And what kind of advice would you give to someone thinking about doing it? I have no clue what I am going to be making, but heck, maybe seeing some responses might help.
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I'm playing a paladin in PFS and it's a lot of fun. I think it's an area thing.
Here, people seem a bit more inclined to play nice when there's a paladin present, but so far that's not a problem with the scenarios involved. They involve a little bit of bending the truth, but not doing actual BAD things. I figure, I'm not allowed to lie. But if lies are needed for the greater good, I'll just stand in the back and let someone else talk.
I've seen lots of paladins in society, and I myself have two (one is a stonelord or Torag though, so he barely counts as one).
Never had a Paladin in a PFS game, either as DM or Player.
I also have 2 wizards in pfs, one of them is my seeker character!
But wizards do seem pretty rare in society, seems most people prefer sorcerers.
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I think it has to do with the high amounts of slightly-less-than-legal and less-than-good activity the Pathfinder Society indulges in quite often. But I have seen paladins in PFS before, and sometimes I wish I hadn't. I knew one guy who thought being a Paladin meant that everything you do is good and justified, and that he could kill an unarmed opponent who had surrendered and was incapable of defending himself, because the guy didn't immediately apologize. Also thought he could eat formerly sentient creatures. Hehe, that Pally fell from grace quickly enough.
The problem from my experience is that the Society is portrayed in PFS to be more like their rivals the Aspis Constortium than the Pathfinder Society in the non-PFS source material. PFS portrays them as unscrupulous thieves and mercenaries a lot of the time land so its no wonder that players follow suit.
Ya, though they are quite obviously trying to move away from that in later seasons, which I actually like the greyness area. Like there are missions where if you don't rob a (mostly) innocent merchant you loose a good chunk of your wealth for the mission. I actually liked that grey area stuff but the are trying to make it.more black and white. Consequently, they have also attempted to change what it takes to succeed as a pathfinder, which I think was a terrible idea on their part.
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.
This isn't particularly unusual. My druids and clerics often do this. Cleric one is a follower of Calistria, he doesn't like killing his opponents because its crueler to be saved by your opponent. The cleric of Gorum only kills in combat. Knocked out enemies that had the fortitude to survive meeting him deserve a chance to engage in battle at another time. The druid just doesn't like to kill if he or his badger isn't going to eat it. Don't waste meat and all that.
My local area has one guy who only plays paladins. As such we see him and a couple of randoms every week. We don't get as many wizards as most wizard types try other classes rather than deal with the no crafting railroads that PFS is. They are a pain to navigate the low levels with and most of the higher level power is highly constrained by PFS rules and mission structure.
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I rock a sword and board paladin who alternates between defending his allies with Covering Defense and being the main front liner. He only does real damage when smiting, but his AC and saves are usually enough to give him the endurance to outlast the enemies best options.
Its a little rough.
The society is basically the second largest organization for smuggling on golarion. A LOT of what they do is underhanded and outright illegal. Toss on that the entangled table variation of alignment, no reason to pump intelligencem low skill points and you're cruising for a bruising.
I think the 'temporary' nature of PFS scenarios tend to discourage role-play and character development in favor of mechanical effectiveness... and since the Paladin is really the only class that has a built-in mechanical penalty for a role-playing transgression, that can make it a tough sell. I also think that you'll see a lot more of them in areas with GM's who don't make 'getting the paladin to fall' one of their priorities.
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btw.. the topic for this thread is a bit well off. It reads like you are sigh.. annoyed/tired with Paladins.
To your point though. I bet a lot of new Paladins hit the scene in Season 5 with the worldwound and all. Lots of otherworldly creatures to slay and so on.
The Paladin should be the moral compass of the party or lead by example. When the characters in your group want to kill the npc because 'hes annoying and a dick' then its up to the Paladin to stand up for the npc and disuade people from doing so.
We have a fair few Paladins locally , most are the 2 handed weapon types.
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We have a variety of Paladins locally, yesterday we had the Seelah pregen being used at our table, while the other table's GM is one of the folks locally who runs a Paladin.
As an online player/GM, I see a bunch of Paladins in the online games, usually in mid-to-high-tier tables.
Locally, we do have some Wizards. I have one in my stable, another local loves them, but is using PFS to play other types of PCs that he is not as familiar/comfortable with. I have seen other Wizards, and arcane casters of various types, around our tables.
A lot of experienced gamers, in my experience, tend to use PFS as a testing grounds for PCs of types they don't normally use. That's how I do it, myself. My area of preference, for example, is ranged fighters, but I think I only have about 4 of them in my stable of PFS PCs, but I also have 4 sorcerers, 1 wizard, 2 maguses, 1 rogue, a couple of trip/disarm builds, 1 bard, and a couple of GM credit blobs in the wings...
Most of the Paladins I've seen at my table are Gishes with sorcerers, and possibly a level in Oracle to let Cha act as Dex in terms of AC, and then EK from then on. Don't doubt the power of being able to eventually add your CHA to AC 4 times with the right features/feats/magical items. The paladin aspect (add Cha to saves) just makes them all the more invulnerable.
I've seen them come in terms of
(Pal2/Ora1/Sor1/EK06/Mystery Cultist 10)
(Pal2/Ora1/Sor1/EK10/Hell Knight Enforcer6)
(Pal2/Synth18)
(Pal4/Sor16)
(Pal2/Monk1/Ora1/Synth1/Sor1/EK10/HKE4) (This was the stupid high AC build)
(Pal2/Monk4/Ora1/Synth1/Sor1/EK10/HKE4) (This was the stupid high ranged AC build)
Most of the Wizards have been gishes with EK, synth, and others in it.
Wizards tend to be a little less on the optimal side compared to the Sorc, but have other powers to make up for it.
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I play a paladin hospitaler online. Honestly, i have a great time playing lawful and playing good (aka not lawful stupid). The greatest moment I his career thus far was after another player had gone down, and I had fought them off while standing over his unconscious form (not single handedly mind, there were 3 other players there doing most of the damage, i helped him back up, emptied my wand of healing and a large number of lay on hands for the day, and used my scroll of lesser restoration to get him back to fighting fit. The guy was ecstatic. He had basically written off his character as dead, and was so grateful to be not just alive, but back to fighting fit. He backed up my paladin for the rest of the session. When we took prisoners and one guy wanted to kill them, he was right there backing me up in saying "awwww hell naw".
Long story short- I play my paladin sub optimally. I spend large amounts of my character wealth and resources helping a bunch of strangers that I will not ever likely see again. And it feels great.
Side not- my summoner is selfish as all hell, and is more than willing to leave the entire party in the lurch if things get ugly. Just in case you got the mistaken impression that I was secretly a good person. I make characters, and then play them to role.
My PFS paladin is now level 9, and he hasn't been on a single Society mission that required him to violate his code or his faith. His Phylactery of Faithfulness is as untested as the day he bought it.
What scenarios? Either you're incredibly lucky or you have a really loose definition of that code.
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After tonight's game, I have played at least one game with generally every player in our group of Pathfinders (I think we number around 30, so thats a lot), and tonight's session alone would have caused just about any Paladin to fall from grace... There was debauchery, murder and pillaging... and that was the players!
I thought about trying to create a Paladin to act as a good example. I might still do so.
Edit: Oh yeah, and animal abuse. When the GM put a group of dogs on the table, the who group made a collective groan about having to kill them, then went about killing them in grisly manners. (with no thought about not murdering them! lol)
I play a paladin hospitaler online. Honestly, i have a great time playing lawful and playing good (aka not lawful stupid). The greatest moment I his career thus far was after another player had gone down, and I had fought them off while standing over his unconscious form (not single handedly mind, there were 3 other players there doing most of the damage, i helped him back up, emptied my wand of healing and a large number of lay on hands for the day, and used my scroll of lesser restoration to get him back to fighting fit. The guy was ecstatic. He had basically written off his character as dead, and was so grateful to be not just alive, but back to fighting fit. He backed up my paladin for the rest of the session. When we took prisoners and one guy wanted to kill them, he was right there backing me up in saying "awwww hell naw".
Long story short- I play my paladin sub optimally. I spend large amounts of my character wealth and resources helping a bunch of strangers that I will not ever likely see again. And it feels great.
Side not- my summoner is selfish as all hell, and is more than willing to leave the entire party in the lurch if things get ugly. Just in case you got the mistaken impression that I was secretly a good person. I make characters, and then play them to role.
This guy gets it.
A paladin is an ideal not a character out to optimize himself, but make the party do the best they can with him as an ACTIVE example.
I had my biweekly PFS game today. One paladin showed up and insisted on stabilizing all enemies not killed outright, even during combat.
Now that is an example of lawfull stupid. It certainly is not forbidden for paladins to save enemies, but it's not required at all costs.
If there's a good reason for sparing a life, for instance if you want to bring them to justice and are close to authorities or need intelligence, then such an action might be usefull. But generally speaking a paladin does not need to bend over backwards to safe the lives of his enemies.Getting a knife and killing all bleeding fallen anemies is another matter, but desperately saving your enemies life is not required as a paladin.
I think that as a paladin it's important to define your guidelines as you start playing a paladin: not lying, being truthfull, show mercy when you can and your wrath if you must. Being chivalrous, righteous and an example to others. I am always a little ambivalent about the paladins do not retreat rule as I think it would be cruel to condemn everyone to death just because you stubbornly fight on against the odds.
I always tend to make sure that the paladin is not cowardly in combat, but retreating and surviving to fight another day is definetly honorable. If the paladin dies his/her followers friends are left without their protector and that responsibility is upon the paladin's shoulders as well.
If the entire party is heavily damaged and the paladin is at full health, I think it's reasonable for the paladin to retreat in order to minimize the chances of casualties for his companions. And I believe that a loud retreat performed by the Paladin in order to draw the enemy to himself instead of his companions is a very heroic action.
The rule that states paladin's must accept an invitation to personal combat is shaky as well as knights indeed lost great personal honor if they refused, but not everyone was allowed to challenge a knight (technically only other knights were allowed to do this). And the challenged knight may choose weapons so if you are challenged go for the joust.
The code of chivalry off course did demand that a paladin would be an example in appearance, deeds and virtue at all times. Protect the innocent and the weak, respect legitimate authority and act with honor.
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Lawful stupid would be trying to force the rest of the party to use merciful combat and avoid killing party in order to comply with the paladin's code.
Trying to save the lives of people and not be a murderhobo is an RPG choice, not Lawful Stupid.
==Aelryinth
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I interpret the "no retreat" thing as not leaving your teammates in the lurch. If something dangerous has to be done you're not allowed to be a coward. But if there's also a volunteering higher-level barbarian you don't have to insist you do it.
Although this attitude did nearly kill me a couple of times. But I want my paladin to be the guy other people like because they can count on him.
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#2-19: Shades of Ice—Part III: Keep of the Huscarl King
#3-09: The Quest for Perfection—Part I: The Edge of Heaven
#3-11: The Quest for Perfection—Part II: On Hostile Waters
#37: The Beggar's Pearl
#3-13: The Quest for Perfection—Part III: Defenders of Nesting Swallow
#5: Mists of Mwangi
#4–21: Way of the Kirin
Good there..
#8: Slave Pits of Absalom
That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?
#4–11: The Disappeared
Don't know that one.
#4–05: The Sanos Abduction
#5–03: The Hellknight's Feast
Rise of the Runelords - Burnt Offerings
#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.
So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?
#5–14: Day of the Demon
It's certainly possible to play PFS scenarios as an amoral, violent sociopath; it may even be 'easier' from some perspectives. But it's never been necessary.
Paladins are operating under more constraints than don't be an amoral violent sociopath- There are other goods besides lawful.
Not that most pathfinders actually engage in them but still...
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Keep in mind that a Paladin's code is not set in stone. Some Paladins have a very different code than others. I ran for a paladin/rogue in PFS that worshipped the God of Executions. He was perfectly willing to finish off evil foes following a combat as an extension of his gods divine mandate, acting as judge jury and executioner. I run for another paladin is play a redeemed Tiefling who invariably uses non-lethal damage and tries diplomacy and intimidation when possible.
There are a few adventures in PFS, Bloodcove disguise for example, that might be difficult for a paladin, however sometimes Silence is Golden.
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#8: Slave Pits of Absalom
That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?
By rescuing the person they were sent to free?
#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.
So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?
Why is this hard to believe?
Keep in mind that a Paladin's code is not set in stone. Some Paladins have a very different code than others..
Other paladins have ADDITIONAL codes, or clarifications to the existing code. The core ones still apply.
By rescuing the person they were sent to free?#8: Slave Pits of Absalom
That one can be very problematic. How did your character deal with the very legal practice of slavery?
You mean someone elses legal property?
Why is this hard to believe?#5–07: Port Godless - Yes, Port Godless was no problem for a paladin.
So you didn't cast any spells, didn't use any divine abilities, the whole adventure?
I think the usual -i don't recognize any authority i don't agree with is legitimate- is more likely.
Remember that being lawful doesn' mean you have to be blindly obedient to whatever the local legal structure is. It means you have to abide by your own code of discipline and respect local laws to the degree they do not conflict with your own.
There are lots of Andoran Paladins who do not see slavery as legally valid and are perfectly entitled to do something about it...as long as it doesn't involve full-on anarchy and stuff. But most Andorans consider slavers something rather lower then dirt, too.
==Aelryinth