I have a 14th level magus with a focus on archery who is tearing through my encounters with ease. Though one would think that downplaying the melee aspect would weaken the class, between numerous buffing spells, improved snapshot, and clustered shots making damage reduction trivial he dishes out tons of damage. Worse, he is very difficult to damage or threaten; often improved invisible and flying in and out of cover behind the rest of the party; when fully buffed and fighting defensively his ac goes over 40. The rest of the group is strong but not optimized to this extent, and at times I think they feel a bit overshadowed. I feel that the kind of monsters I'd need to threaten him might be too powerful for the rest of the group to handle. He always makes a point of the fact that eventually his buffs end and that he can only be that powerful for so long, but in my experience at high levels characters can dictate the terms of a day and go rest when needed. As I look through the last adventure for Curse of the Crimson Throne, I'm not sure what to add to make things somewhat of a challenge.
At the same time, I know that crafting and optimizing a character is a big part of the enjoyment this player gets from the game, and everything he's chosen have been from paizo books and taken to perfect his desire for a wizard archer. I don't know that I want to necessarily nerf his character.. Anway, anyone have this problem before or any advice on how to challenge him more in combat?
Wind of wall. Obscuring mist. Protection from arrows. These ways are viable. And how about his touch ac? Or reflex saves? Maybe will saves? Hopefully he don't have a so high wisdom, even if will saves are good for magi.
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I have a 14th level magus with a focus on archery who is tearing through my encounters with ease. Though one would think that downplaying the melee aspect would weaken the class, between numerous buffing spells, improved snapshot, and clustered shots making damage reduction trivial he dishes out tons of damage. Worse, he is very difficult to damage or threaten; often improved invisible and flying in and out of cover behind the rest of the party; when fully buffed and fighting defensively his ac goes over 40. The rest of the group is strong but not optimized to this extent, and at times I think they feel a bit overshadowed. I feel that the kind of monsters I'd need to threaten him might be too powerful for the rest of the group to handle. He always makes a point of the fact that eventually his buffs end and that he can only be that powerful for so long, but in my experience at high levels characters can dictate the terms of a day and go rest when needed. As I look through the last adventure for Curse of the Crimson Throne, I'm not sure what to add to make things somewhat of a challenge.
At the same time, I know that crafting and optimizing a character is a big part of the enjoyment this player gets from the game, and everything he's chosen have been from paizo books and taken to perfect his desire for a wizard archer. I don't know that I want to necessarily nerf his character.. Anway, anyone have this problem before or any advice on how to challenge him more in combat?
I think the biggest problem is your acceptance of 'players dictating the pace of the adventure'. I dont know crimson throne, but the single biggest way to balance a character like this is more encounters. Just plug in 2 or 3 encounters before the important ones. You dont have to put lots of work into them, just grab a few cr 14 monsters from the bestiary that fit the theme and put them in a room. If the players bail after less then 4 or 5 encounters and come back after resting, put in more filler encounters. Dont let them get to the important fights without having gone through 3-4 relatively difficult ones before hand
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Don't forget about dispell magic, start peeling away the spells. Also in my experience if a PCs character get known enough, plenty of mobs of weaker foes, designed to make him use his spells before a bigger fight can help are bound to happen with a connected leader.
Edit: Dang Kolootroni beat me too it with better words.... :(
We've had the GMs take various measures to balance things out. In one game our Gunslinger was severely outpacing everyone else in terms of effectiveness. The GM had us fight a high level Giant with sorcerer levels who Dominated the Gunslinger and forced us to deal with the problem. That was pretty effective (it helps that the Gunslinger was one of the more experienced players and willing to play along with it, though).
There's also always traps, ambushes. If the party decides to rest, have the team beset upon without giving the Magus time to set up his buffs. Dispel Magic traps, too... our GM threw at us "second one through the doorway trips the Greater Dispel Magic trap" one time.
If the Magus is obviously the threat, Dispel Magic and other debuffs should be expected to be targeting him. At 14th level, opponents using Quickened Dispel Magic, either casting or as an SLA, should come with the territory. Follow that up with a SoS if a caster or pouncing full attack if a monster.
Fickle Winds and Wind Wall should play havoc with him at this point as well, and be readily available to his opponents.
Wind of wall. Obscuring mist. Protection from arrows. These ways are viable. And how about his touch ac? Or reflex saves? Maybe will saves? Hopefully he don't have a so high wisdom, even if will saves are good for magi.
Protection from arrows is useless. DR/10 magic. What 14th level character doesn't have magic bow and even if they didn't cluster shot applies the DR to the total damage not damage per arrow. I housed ruled this spell to resist arrows and added protection from arrows and level high spell that works like protection from energy.
Personally cluster shot is too powerful a feat. No negative for using it so you might as well use it all the time. DR then is trivial. I house ruled clustered shot applies a -1 to hit per arrow included in the shot. So two arrows is -2 as you'd never use cluster shot with 1 arrow.
Best spell though to avoid arrows is fickle winds.
Most answers seem to be spells, I guess I need to insert more spell casters into the mix of enemies. They tend to be terrible because the magus readies an action to hit them and they will likely lose their spell. But at least that's not a round of full attacks. Maybe I'll throw multiple mid level mages at them.
He can ready if he likes.
Have them flip the bird at him and proceed to cast a Quickened version of the same spell.
Turnabout is fair play.
Is he a Myr, or is this literally a Magus that doesn't use spell combat/spellstrike?
He rarely uses those abilities, so yes I suppose he could be doing more damage using hand to hand. Between gravity bow, rapid shot, haste (from the group wizard) and a bunch of other enhancements he puts on his bow, archery seems powerful enough. He can usually get a full attack in and just inch 5ft each turn in and out of cover while flying invisible w/ an ac over 40. Anyone have answers for this tactic other than spells? Just left an undead dungeon so at least some of them could have lifesense.. just feels odd having to have casters almost every fight so I can negate his massive advantage with dispels or wind walls.
I think I'm just not as big a fan of (or as skilled at) DMing high level combat, and his tactics are giving me a taste of why.
Well, that's casters at high levels for you.
My experience has reinforced that the game does in fact begin to break at post 12th level. This magus situation sounds familiar in that I've experienced this phenomenon from both sides. Used to just adapt, now it spells the end is near for the campaign. YMMV.
Personally cluster shot is too powerful a feat. No negative for using it so you might as well use it all the time
...A lot of feats have no downside to using them. You spent the feat, that's the cost to gain its benefit.
You could have a mad bomber alchemist nova on him. IF you want to kill him instead of just challenge him.
Honestly, most of high level play is about spells, so that's why they're the answer here.
If you want to have a caster work, a Contingency that pulls up Fickle Winds when targeted by arrows works.
Two words: Behemoth Pudding with some added hit dice. Also it's a good challenge for any party. It eats arrows, adventurers, splits in two, and a bunch of good stuff.
I would like to see his built it sounds fun. I meen i Think the magus is a bit Down on the list for Breaking the game with archery but i have been known to be Wrong from time to time.
I would like to see his built it sounds fun. I meen i Think the magus is a bit Down on the list for Breaking the game with archery but i have been known to be Wrong from time to time.
Now that I think some more about it, Magus is actually a decent Archer class even without Myrmidarch (which is a mess anyways).
- Bonus feats are welcome for any Archer
- Arcane Pool can enhance a bow, and Arcana such as Ghost Blade are actually not restricted to melee weapons
- Accurate Strike is restricted to melee, but Arcane Accuracy is not
- 3/4 Spellcasting with a good combat-oriented list, and some ability to poach from the Wizard list
- Spell Recall, especially Improved, gives you great spellcasting endurance
- Ability to get a a Familiar, which along with Wands, Improved Familiar, and UMD (Int-based with a trait!) can solve a lot of the action economy problems of buff-happy characters
On the other hand, 3/4 BAB means the Magus is late to Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot, and Snap Shot + Improved Snap Shot.
Well, I just paged through the modules. Skeletons of Scarwall is full of mooks who can't deal with a flying archer, and only 1 enemy who can deal with invisibility. Crown of Fangs has it's own problems (how many badly designed 8th level fighters does it take to challenge a level 14 party?), but there are at least plenty of enemies who can actually participate in high-level combat.
I would like to see his built it sounds fun. I meen i Think the magus is a bit Down on the list for Breaking the game with archery but i have been known to be Wrong from time to time.Now that I think some more about it, Magus is actually a decent Archer class even without Myrmidarch (which is a mess anyways).
- Bonus feats are welcome for any Archer
- Arcane Pool can enhance a bow, and Arcana such as Ghost Blade are actually not restricted to melee weapons
- Accurate Strike is restricted to melee, but Arcane Accuracy is not
- 3/4 Spellcasting with a good combat-oriented list, and some ability to poach from the Wizard list
- Spell Recall, especially Improved, gives you great spellcasting endurance
- Ability to get a a Familiar, which along with Wands, Improved Familiar, and UMD (Int-based with a trait!) can solve a lot of the action economy problems of buff-happy charactersOn the other hand, 3/4 BAB means the Magus is late to Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot, and Snap Shot + Improved Snap Shot.
The number of bonus feats is very low 3 in all( 5,11 and 17 i Think) the other points are true but not overvelming so and several of Them are also possibly in other builts. Can even argue that a fighter Can better spare the feats to get a familiar than the magus.
Sounds like he is running three to four buffs every battle, and seems like too much prep time and not enough encounters. Gravity Bow is not on the Magus list, allowing that little add had to cost something, maybe a dip into ranger/sorc/wizard or an arcana? Crimson Throne has a fair amount of indoor adventure, this has to mess with line of sight and position.
Anyway, any decent level archer, built properly, will have all those feats and add spells and it can be tough. Would try and surprise the group or something to minimalize all those buffs. Add a few incorporals with touch attack stealthing through the walls and it might be interesting to see the buffless party manage, especially with tight corridors with tight corners. Rather see a proper encounter for the party than one built to hose just one character.
Deflect Arrows feat.
I know this can deflect all of Manyshot's arrows... how does it interact with Clustered Shots?
Deflect Arrows feat.
I know this can deflect all of Manyshot's arrows... how does it interact with Clustered Shots?
It doesn't. Clustered Shots is all of your arrows fired in succession as normal. Deflect Arrows only messes up Manyshot because they're fired simultaneously.
The number of bonus feats is very low 3 in all( 5,11 and 17 i Think) the other points are true but not overvelming so and several of Them are also possibly in other builts. Can even argue that a fighter Can better spare the feats to get a familiar than the magus.I would like to see his built it sounds fun. I meen i Think the magus is a bit Down on the list for Breaking the game with archery but i have been known to be Wrong from time to time.Now that I think some more about it, Magus is actually a decent Archer class even without Myrmidarch (which is a mess anyways).
- Bonus feats are welcome for any Archer
- Arcane Pool can enhance a bow, and Arcana such as Ghost Blade are actually not restricted to melee weapons
- Accurate Strike is restricted to melee, but Arcane Accuracy is not
- 3/4 Spellcasting with a good combat-oriented list, and some ability to poach from the Wizard list
- Spell Recall, especially Improved, gives you great spellcasting endurance
- Ability to get a a Familiar, which along with Wands, Improved Familiar, and UMD (Int-based with a trait!) can solve a lot of the action economy problems of buff-happy charactersOn the other hand, 3/4 BAB means the Magus is late to Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Improved Precise Shot, and Snap Shot + Improved Snap Shot.
I just said it was decent, I would still rate a Paladin or Ranger archer higher.
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I know my players well enough that we can chat outside the game if it looks like someone has built something that effectively minimizes other player contributions in battle. You'll know when other players are getting exasperated.
I wouldn't modify battles to specifically "take them down a notch" as players will catch on pretty quickly, though adding some random encounters or some challenges where time is an issue (party can't rest at will) can alleviate characters casually burning through all their spells/abilities in 2-3 combats.
While this isn't a thread to trash Clustered Shots, we previously found it created enough of an imbalance in combat that we've banned it. You know your player best, and he may be willing to modify his character to tone things down a bit by swapping out that feat, which might "even out" his damage. As I've stated in threads before, try to address any game issues outside the game rather than at the table.
As others have said it does sound like he has a lot of time to buff. I find this swings power levels across campaigns, in some games we get warning of combat several rounds before it happens, or get to be the ones initiating it at our leisure. In other games, we're the ones getting ambushed.
If he can't come into a combat lit up like a christmas tree, he shouldn't be as scary.
I don't know the whole situation, but it seems like they just need a little of their own medicine. Have them fight humanoids with class levels. See Invisibility + Dazing Fireball will tell your players that optimizing has consequences.
This isn't really a problem with the Magus, or rather it is only a problem with the magus compared to the other party members who aren't having as much fun because the magus is being cooler than them. This can be solved one of two ways, either screw with the magus (targeting encounters on him, nerfing his abilities, etc.) or by helping the other members of the party to be cooler, so the the group is in balance.
My guess is option two would be more fun for everybody. I'd even talk with the player of the magus, the one who likes to optimize, and get his suggestions on things that could be done to help the other characters be cooler. That way everyone wins and and everyone has fun, and you can just up the general CR of encounters to keep them on their toes.
Yikes! This is a good argument for keeping magic rare and special. Vancian magic limited the number of spells cast per day. Sure the mage could rule the roost for a few encounters but eventually his stuff runs out.
Oh well it is what it is.
Magi are Vancian Karl, and have less spells than Wizards.
This whole thing sounds like a GM letting his party have a one or two encounter day, multiple rounds of pre-fight prep while the monsters stand around doing nothing, and is then surprised when a caster with time to buff is able to match what a properly built martial archer could have been doing anyhow.
Magi are Vancian Karl, and have less spells than Wizards.
This whole thing sounds like a GM letting his party have a one or two encounter day, multiple rounds of pre-fight prep while the monsters stand around doing nothing, and is then surprised when a caster with time to buff is able to match what a properly built martial archer could have been doing anyhow.
I did not know that. Thanks. The solution to me then would be wave attacks. Use up the guys spells(?) on mooks then the big bad shows up. Just make sure the buffs(?) have time to fade before sending the next wave. Eventually the magic archer is depowered or he has to choose when he powers up more carefully. Either way it will give other characters a chance to shine.
Thanks for the advice all. We generally have multiple encounters a day, but they are fought quickly and after fights the pc's tend to rush onward to the next encounter so their minutes per level spells still factor in. This was possible because they were cleaning out a dungeon, now that the adventure takes them back into the city to conclude the storyline I think they may resort to teleporting in then out when threatened or debuffed. I think I need to start doing the same to them, and have more buffed up enemies teleport to them to initiate combat, (something I've avoided doing a lot of til now). His huge ac is still difficult to overcome w/ more numerous foes, but maybe dispel magic can turn the tide.
To those who were wondering about his build, I don't have his character sheet right in front of me, but I've looked over it before and it seems correct (he got gravity bow from a magus arcana that lets you learn wizard spells). Key feats include imp. snapshot, clustered shot, precise shot, & rapid shot. He enhances his bow to have holy and a smattering of other elemental damage types. Casts, shield and interposing hand for cover and fights defensively. Potentially casts greater invis., fly, greater magic weapon, and gravity bow. No save is particularly weak.
There should really be some kind of guide to high level pathfinder.. I like the system a lot but around this point in the game it gets hard to intelligently play multiple complicated enemies with large spell lists and buff's at their disposal.
I enjoy these threads a lot.
Fighters are ok, no buffs needed. Oh you need to defeat a high level PC? You're only solution is magic, sorry :(
To be fair, these are rarely the same people saying those things. I for instance don't think I've ever said "fighters are ok, no buffs needed".
There should really be some kind of guide to high level pathfinder.. I like the system a lot but around this point in the game it gets hard to intelligently play multiple complicated enemies with large spell lists and buff's at their disposal.
That would be nice. I think a GM's book aimed at helping GMs navigate high level play would be pretty awesome.
As it stands, I'd recommend looking around here and maybe at Enworld for some people you like the style of, and asking for their help.
I'd love to see his build - many times I find that the most OP tend to have a mistake or two (not intentional) that shouldn't interact - which in turn creates a very OP player. With a magus specifically remember he can't use spell-combat if he's using a bow. That means he can cast a buff - or attack - not both as spell combat is limited to *melee* weapons only.
The choice of a bow - seems to me - that he would be a weaker wizard, and a weaker fighter - unless given *lots* of time to cast all his spells without being harassed. Gravity bow (1 round) - shield (1 round) - interposing hand (1 round) - possible greater invis (1 round) and fly (1 round). Fully buffed he took 5 rounds before he can even shoot one arrow. The rest of the party is *that* weak that they didn't clean up much of the encounter before then? At this stage of the game I'd expect the combat to be close to over at this point.
I think it would help if you gave either his build *and* or a sample of combat to see if there are things that would help *without* tossing dispelling wizards in every encounter.
*edit* formatting - it always looks good in the window and goes to pieces when I click post *sigh*
To those who were wondering about his build, I don't have his character sheet right in front of me, but I've looked over it before and it seems correct (he got gravity bow from a magus arcana that lets you learn wizard spells). Key feats include imp. snapshot, clustered shot, precise shot, & rapid shot. He enhances his bow to have holy and a smattering of other elemental damage types. Casts, shield and interposing hand for cover and fights defensively. Potentially casts greater invis., fly, greater magic weapon, and gravity bow. No save is particularly weak.
Okay, so...
He's heavily specialized for ranged combat, probably relying on flying and invisibility for defense along with his cover. If your campaign has gunslingers, a sniper type one would be very dangerous to him (negating most of his AC advantage) and give the front line to have someone to chase around. It'd make sense if one was hired to deal with someone that dangerous.
He has a "smattering of other elemental damage types" after having the bow made holy? So I guess he's relying more heavily on energy-based damage bonuses instead of his own power (you didn't mention Deadly Aim for example). That suggests an opponent could minimize the damage by having a lot of energy resistances. Maybe some non-evil opponents who won't take much alignment based damage get hoodwinked into fighting the party? I've had good-aligned enemies who were mislead by a clever villain, and suddenly all of our "evil slaying" was rendered useless.
Also, again, traps that force the party to waste time between encounters going around, disarming, or dealing with the consequences. If the party has enough time to leave and come back via teleportation, maybe the bad guys have had time to realize what happened to the first guys that were attacked the previous day and are now more prepared (reset some traps, set up ambushes, moved furniture to give them cover, whatever).
Just some thoughts.