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Ok my thread just got locked after a couple of hours and a lot of abuse was thrown in my general direction.
First of all. My comment was not intended to be a serious question nor was it intended to be an insult and I am sorry that it was taken that way.
The entire thread was a question concerning some of the element of the APs. They're elements that I and my group don't much care for. I never said that none of you wouldn't like them. In fact that was the whole point of the thread ....to find out how many people liked the slightly left of centre experimental ideas and how many, like me prefer traditional fantasy. Liking my fantasy traditional does not make me have any less of an imagination than anyone else. It just means there are some APs out there that I won't purchase and some that I will. I am sure there are many like me out there.
Personally I think paizo are doing a wonderful job.. Kingmaker has been one of my favourite so far. But yes I've also got rune lords, jade regent, second darkness, legacy of fire, and on and on.
I thought I would voice my opinion on the elements I would prefer less of. It is not a criticism of paizo writers abilities or talent. Merely a statement of my preferences and I was curious as to how many agreed with me. I'm sure paizo would also be interested in hearing which elements of the APs people like and which they didn't.
So in summary. I am sorry if people took offense. That was never the intention.
But seriously, the abuse I copped because of a misunderstanding tells me that you need to have a hard look at yourselves. At least my insult was unintentional and was intended as tongue in cheek.
Probably a timing issue. There seem to me to have been a number of "Paizo staff are <insert undesirable trait here>" posts of late. We're probably just super-sensitive.
For my part, I agree with you aesthetically. I like "boring" standard western european fantasy. However, I think there's a large number of paizo's fans who like the more out there stuff. Although I dont like using it, I quite like reading it - I've been pleasantly surprised by a few of the APs I had a negative intial response to. One thing I think paizo do really, really well is to take a theme and explore it thoroughly and respectfully. It's not always my thing, but I appreciate their talent.
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On a side note. I would be interested in seeing which APs have sold better and which have shown a dip in sales. Would be interested in seeing how the market shows which AP ideas it likes best. I'll assume this information is not available to joe public though.
They've publically said that Reign of Winter did very, very well I believe.
.The Kaer Maga sourcebook was also highly reviewed (if you count that as "weird"). Iron Gods is going to be the next big "test" I think. It's quite polarising.
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I have nothing wrong with experimental role playing games and ideas. I just use a different system for that. I love Cthulhu. Played shadowrun for 15 years. Played so many other genres it's not funny. I just prefer my fantasy to be traditional fantasy. It isn't a criticism of the ideas or the writers abilities. Just my preferences.
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If this is intended as an apology post, it appears to fall short.
Regarding the AP's, theme is only one aspect of people's like or dislike of an AP. There are the sub-systems which are introduced, how well people felt the APs met their expectations, and if people feel the APs go outside of their comfort zone (ex the "not necessarily good" for S&S, the "going to earth" part of RoW, etc.).
Paizo does get feedback on the individual APs and actually has whole message board sections devoted to each AP that you can peruse for what feedback has been offered and even see some of the prior back-and-forth between Paizo staff / writers and fans / GMs.
-TimD
P.S. don't be surprised if this thread gets locked as well. It's generally considered very boorish behavior to open a thread because your other thread was locked. Your apology may help alleviate that somewhat if they take it as an apology rather than a "grow thicker skin, n00bs" like it came across to me.
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I have nothing wrong with experimental role playing games and ideas. I just use a different system for that. I love Cthulhu. Played shadowrun for 15 years. Played so many other genres it's not funny. I just prefer my fantasy to be traditional fantasy. It isn't a criticism of the ideas or the writers abilities. Just my preferences.
"I dont like it" isnt a criticism of the writers. It's not hard to see why "Are you on drugs?" could be seen as critical, is it?
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I don't know... I read the first title and got a little huffy, but when I read his post it made more sense. He said "drugs" and then went on describe some rather tripy concepts in recent APs.
Maybe not the best choice of words, but it seems a poor choice in concert with recent threads caused him more backlash than he was due.
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Thing is, Paizo does an assortment of adventure paths and modules, some of which are standard dungeon slogs and some are more "experimental". They do this with races, classes, and so on as well. If one of them doesn't strike your fancy, there is always an assortment either upcoming or in back catalog to choose from. Tastes differ from gamer to gamer.
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As the only Paizo writer (excluding staff) whose work was specifically called out in the thread as an example of drug-induced writing, I'll give you a minute of my time to share what I thought about it.
Though I've never used drugs, I was not necessarily offended. I did think your use of an attention-grabbing headline was boorish, immature, and in poor taste. If your goals were *truly* to get the feedback you claim you were after, and not to rabble-rouse, you failed. Why? Because if you had started a thread titled more softly, like "Paizo Put Their Modern Chocolate in My Fantasy Peanut Butter" or "Please Help Me Resolve Non-Traditional AP Elements," then you are way, way more likely to have not only gotten the feedback from the community you say you were seeking, but more likely to lure those hard-working, apparently drug-addled freelancers to comment on the topic with worthwhile feedback.
But you didn't. You used a contentious headline and boorish insinuations to get attention, and it properly backfired. Which is why you didn't see me, or any other Paizo freelancers partially responsible for those non-traditional elements, taking part in the discourse. You might have had me, for example, inform you that Rasputin Must Die! has proven to be one of Paizo's most popular and fastest-selling AP chapters, with a slew of incredible reviews and amazing feedback that I never could have predicted when I took the assignment. That should tell you something as to how well the genre-pushing elements are accepted by the greater Paizo community. Maybe I'd have shared some of my inspirations and thoughts on crossing genres in a fantasy game, particularly since my home game is staunchly-traditional. I might have even suggested you check out the "Alternate Fantasy Overlays" thread I started here on the boards to modify the adventure into more of a fantasy environment for groups uncomfortable with the modern setting--showing GMs how, with only a few simple shifts, they could substitute WWI-era Earth and Rasputin for the world of Greyhawk and Iuz.
I might have been nice, or gracious, or helpful, or generally friendly, because that's the kind of guy I am in this community. But instead, I browsed your post and some responses, figured your words were probably an accurate reflection of your character, and got on with my day without thinking twice about it. Ultimately, that might be your loss. Maybe not.
To kinda-quote Sean Reynolds, who I'll miss dearly around these parts, on posting maturely:
"Is your attitude more likely to get someone to respond positively, or less likely?"
In this case, it was less likely. Way less likely. And "sorry you took offense at my insulting comments" before telling the offended to evaluate themselves isn't all that redeeming, either. Oh, the irony. But you seem like a reasonable sort, and I hope you see why you got the response you did, and can move forward as a productive, positive member of our community. Because we could use all the help these days in an increasingly negative environment around here.
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Words mean things.
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Words mean things.
Many things. Often at once.
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<snip>
And that, right there, is class.
*slow clap*
To address Snow Crash's original issue (since what needs to be said has been said), you can always download the regular modules and turn them into an adventure path on your own. It would still be unique and more "standard" fantasy. You could make adjustments tailored to your own campaign. You could even adjust the difficulty of a module easily. For example, you could take a module written for level 3 characters, slap on some templates and increase the overall difficulty to level 5.
I think there is a lot of room for both standard and non-standard fantasy adventures. I really like genre pushing adventures but I also like the standard as well. I like seeing what the system can handle and keeping my players on their toes. I also like seeing what my players come up with to handle the unexpected.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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<snip>And that, right there, is class.
*slow clap*
Ditto. Lots of Paizo staff and freelancers are happy to take time to explain design decisions and ideas and discuss them with the folks on the boards, often in great detail, but as my momma used to say, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
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The "crazy" adventures have been my favorite. Seriously, Snow Crash, have you even read Rasputin Must Die!? It's become the flagship for people who hate original story concepts in their RPGs and for good reason - it's one of the coolest, most well-written adventures ever, and I'm not just endorsing because I bare a horrifying resemblance to the Mad Monk.
You're welcome to your opinion, Snow Crash. You're also more than welcome to curb your language, realize that word choice hurts, and show some respect to your fellow human beings who work very hard to put out exciting, quality adventures.
If an original adventure plot bothers you, skip it and don't read it.
There are way too many people on these boards who think that being rude and inconsiderate to other people is actually being "bold, honest, and edgy". And then, when they're told that they offended someone, they act the victim insistently for attention across several topics and private messages, and tell people that they're just being too sensitive to their very important opinions.
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Agreed with Jason.
A lot of us hang out here still, and we do our best to take care of you folks- because its good for business and we want you to buy our books in the future.
But it's hard when we start the conversation with a tone of accusation.
Words mean things.Many things. Often at once.
Titivilus is notorious for his ability to twist words, to use words to confuse, and to confuse those using words.
just check my profile!
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I come from the true old-school basic D&D plus Arduin Grimore plus anything else the GM wanted to toss in style of play. Did the GM read Starship Troopers last night? Well now the orcs are wearing powered armor. The paladin is wearing glowing plastic plate armor. Gaming was gonzo back then, and I simply do not understand the mentality that calls for D&D to be some pseudo-medieval Europe analogue (read, a highly inaccurate preconception of what Europe looked like).
Why people want to mae D&D as vanilla and boring as possible, is beyond me.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I come from the true old-school basic D&D plus Arduin Grimore plus anything else the GM wanted to toss in style of play. Did the GM read Starship Troopers last night? Well now the orcs are wearing powered armor. The paladin is wearing glowing plastic plate armor. Gaming was gonzo back then, and I simply do not understand the mentality that calls for D&D to be some pseudo-medieval Europe analogue (read, a highly inaccurate preconception of what Europe looked like).
Why people want to mae D&D as vanilla and boring as possible, is beyond me.
Vanilla isn't inherently boring. In fact, vanilla can be delicious. Especially pared with some rich hot fudge and a sliced banana. Maybe a scoop of chocolate on the side. Ice cream doesn't need to be salted balsamic habanero cardamom ripple cocoa nib durian gelato custard surprise to be delicious. It can be, if that's what you like, but it's not required to make it good. In fact, given the choice between "new, different, and 'INTERESTING'" on the one hand and "delicious" on the other, I'll take "delicious" every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
If Snow Crash likes his fantasy right at the intersection of Tolkien Road and King Arthur Boulevard, then more power to him. If yours hews closer to Thundarr the Barbarian than Conan the Barbarian, then bully for you too! I grew up in the 70s and 80s, and I played games that went both ways on that score. Gonzo mash-ups can be fun. Traditional fantasy can be fun. What's boring for one isn't for another, I'd suggest to steer clear of universalizing claims that any particular play style is flat-out boring for all.
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Can I just say, I'd like some of the same drugs so I can make the adventures I write even half as interesting?
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I think most of us already have a petty cliche, default, middle earth based fantasy setting in out head already. It doesn't really need to be 'marketed.' As a business model, new stuff is going to sell, to some people. People who want the same old over and over don't tend to buy new products. Sort of like people who play bridge. You don't spend money on it.
I'd rather buy miniatures and paint them then new books, but that is just me.
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But @SnowCrash if your group isn't into the turns and twists - then take them out, it's your AP too. It's not hard to do but next time please use a spoiler tag to you don't give away the cool surprises for the rest of us.
Happy gaming!
Sorry didn't realise they were spoilers. They are contained in the general description of the modules. So I assumed they were general knowledge. My bad. Apologies.
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Once again. I'm not saying these things are bad. Not at all. Just not my cup of tea and was curious as to what percentage of the paizo community liked the traditional fantasy and how many liked the idea of crashed spaceships and aliens in their fantasy game.
The only people I chat to are my local gaming groups. We all tended towards the traditional fantasy style. I guess like minds attract.
A lot of people still seem under the assumption I hate these things. This is not the case. I was merely curious as to what the feeling in the general community was.
I am deeply sorry for any unintended insult I may have caused. That was never ever my intention.
Thank you Brandon for your response and thank you for all your contributions to the wonderful world we all love to play in. Without the tireless work of yourself and others, none of us would have this place to escape to using only our imaginations.
Snow Crash.
@Snow Crash:
I think you should remember two things.
1) First impressions are very important in human interaction. The words you used kinda of set the tone for the thread.
2) In text based communication you really have to be careful on what words you use because we (the readers) have no idea what your tone is...facial expression, or any of the hundreds of other visual and other senses cues that humans use to read a situration.
Traditional fantasy is such a subjective term nowadays though.
Consider Dragonlance - it's 30 years old now, and you'd consider that to be old hat nowadays... and here it is with flying citadels.
Similarly Ravenloft - it's mere mention conjures reams of nostalgia among many gamers... and it's got Masque of the Red Death circa 1994 which blurs lines with 1890s Earth.
So in two of the marquee 'old-ish-er-school' settings you've got the flying x's and crossovers to Earth.
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I think the impression that non traditional adventures are the thing at the moment comes from the unfortunate ( would that be the right word?) timing. The last few, well announced ones included, have been
Modern crossover
Flying pyramids
Potential robots and spaceships
With a mythic, almost traditional thrown in.
This makes it looks like we've had non tradional for a long time. In the Grand scheme that's 3 of 16 by the time iron kings hits the shelves. I think they need to push the boundaries to keep the AP formulae fresh. Many people were distressed at the mythic aspect of wrath, personally I'd love to see this non traditional style again. I'm sure we'll see some more traditional APs again.
I also think a lot of traditional players would actually really enjoy the aforementioned APs if they tried them. I know my group would but I struggle to get them to even accept guns and gunslingers. My feeling is - As long as the story's well crafted its a pleasure to play
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That's not to mention S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Crashed alien spaceship, robots, lasers, you name it. Pretty much all the stuff that people are complaining about with Iron Gods. And, if the wiki is to be believed, that was first played in 1976 with actual publication in 1980.Traditional fantasy is such a subjective term nowadays though.
Consider Dragonlance - it's 30 years old now, and you'd consider that to be old hat nowadays... and here it is with flying citadels.
Similarly Ravenloft - it's mere mention conjures reams of nostalgia among many gamers... and it's got Masque of the Red Death circa 1994 which blurs lines with 1890s Earth.
So in two of the marquee 'old-ish-er-school' settings you've got the flying x's and crossovers to Earth.
Plus the 1980s BECMI D&D Mystara setting, which had:
A spacecraft that had crashed back in the Blackmoor era leaking nuclear radiation which was powering various magical efforts in the nation of Glantri (GAZ3, and Wrath of the Immortals boxed set), and a trip by Immortals into current-day Chicago and New York (IM1)
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@ Snow Crash,
Your last post in this thread made me happy and I am pleased with the change of tenor in this thread.
EDIT: This post might sound condescending, so I want to clarify. As a community we focus on negative threads quite a bit, but we should also focus on the positive. I think Snow Crash is sincere. They joked in a manner that was very familiar with people they didn't know and it didn't come off well. Who hasn't done that at least once? Now this conversation has turned around despite an unfortunate subject line. This is worthy of being noted.
That's not to mention S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. Crashed alien spaceship, robots, lasers, you name it. Pretty much all the stuff that people are complaining about with Iron Gods. And, if the wiki is to be believed, that was first played in 1976 with actual publication in 1980.Traditional fantasy is such a subjective term nowadays though.
Consider Dragonlance - it's 30 years old now, and you'd consider that to be old hat nowadays... and here it is with flying citadels.
Similarly Ravenloft - it's mere mention conjures reams of nostalgia among many gamers... and it's got Masque of the Red Death circa 1994 which blurs lines with 1890s Earth.
So in two of the marquee 'old-ish-er-school' settings you've got the flying x's and crossovers to Earth.
Plus the 1980s BECMI D&D Mystara setting, which had:
** spoiler omitted **
The Spelljammer setting is 25 years old this year.
The Planescape setting is 20 years old this year.
How many decades does it take for "unconventional" fantasy to become conventional?
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Mr. Crash: Kudos to you for turning around the tenor of this thread. Chalk up your original locked thread as a learning experience.
As for the gonzo elements in some APs-- I really like them, when used judiciously.
And they're not a terribly new thing, either. AD&D 1st Edition had a bunch of totally gonzo modules-- Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (1980), where the PCs investigate a crashed starship; The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (1983), where the PCs are transported to a very deadly version of Alice in Wonderland; White Plume Mountain (1979) had sci-fi elements; etc.
I happen to really like sci-fi elements in fantasy. I haven't run "Reign of Winter" yet, but I think that Rasputin Must Die! is one of the best-written adventures I've ever come across in 30+ years of gaming.
And I am very much looking forward to "Iron Gods."
If you are looking for traditional fantasy adventures, the vast majority of Paizo products are just that. I applaud Paizo for pushing the envelope and doing something new and different!
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I personally find "High Fantasy" which a lot of people call "conventional Fantasy" or "Traditional Fantasy" to be very boring and uninspiring. I have several friends who are high fantasy purest and even though we play fantasy RPGs together we have learned that certain topics are off topics or they lead to fights.
I also don't roll my eyes every time they make an elf prince ranger and they refrain from doing the same when I make a character inspired by something darker. I started off as a horror and Sci-Fi fan and then slowly turned to Fantasy. My first RPG experiences took place in a sci-fi universe with guns and psychic powers and all sorts of yummy things like that.
I respect Tolkien for what he did to advance the genre of fantasy but I hate how many people consider him the measure by which all other things fantasy are judged to have value by.
I like the inner sea setting because it isn't solid traditional high fantasy. There are a lot of other genres sprinkled and mixed together. I think this is a great thing but I don't expect everyone to share that opinion.
I like the idea of slumbering old gods who are twisted and would destroy the world should they wake. I like the idea of flying cities and structures. I like the idea of a nation run by undead. I like the idea of Psionics. I like the idea of anti-heroes who really want to stop a BBEG but find it more convenient and assured to work by approaching a scorched earth approach. Whoever survives will be better off in the long run and can live their life without fear of the BBEG making them slaves/experiments/undead/whatever.
My main complaint about threads like this is that Paizo never claimed that Golarion was a high fantasy setting. The people who complain most often about the setting are from what I have seen are usually "High Fantasy" purest even if they don't identify as such. These purest have a very strict idea of what a "fantasy setting" is going to look like and become upset when it does not look like that. As someone who started with horror and sci-fi then only started liking fantasy because of gothic and dark fantasy I can say that the wide selection of things in the inner sea tickle my fancy a bit and have made me invest. (I also have been known to read alternative history fantasy so the pretty much direct references to real life history in the Inner Sea setting doesn't even make me blink an eye).
I'm not saying that being a high fantasy purest limits creativity or makes an individual unoriginal when designing their own game but it certainly cuts out a lot of potentially cool things as they don't fit the genre.
I think the biggest problem that Paizo is having is that they only offer and support one official setting. People have an aversion to using third party material in general and a lot of people do not like non-high fantasy. It means you have a lot of people with a narrow view of fantasy finding fault in a lot of what Golarion has to offer. I would encourage these people to explore some of the third party campaign settings. Many of them have very traditional feels.
Also I would argue that Golarion as a whole has a slight dark fantasy theme to all things which is why so much of Pathfinder material is a bit mature in its nature. However, this results in even more complaints as high fantasy tends to be a bit PG or PG-13, where as dark fantasy and gothic fantasy can delve pretty far into the NC-17 area.
CEO
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As the great Abraham Lincoln said, “You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”
When you publish RPG books, there is a truism that says that for every book you publish, somebody will love it and somebody will hate it. The trick to staying in business is to have way more folks love what you do than hate what you do. But you know that you will rarely if ever have 100% approval. That is just life.
So what we try to do with our books is publish a variety of types and themes of books, hoping that there will be at least something that a person will want to buy, even if they don't want to buy everything.
With the APs, we mix it up, figuring that not everyone can play every adventure path. When we announce a new AP, the announcement thread is a mix of folks squeeing with delight and those announcing that they will be canceling their AP subscription when that AP starts. But we know that there is a good chance that the folks who are skipping a certain AP because it isn't to their tastes will be back for the next one. Or the one after that. Especially if we give a wide variety of styles and themes.
Usually after we do something that is a bit outside the core of fantasy, we will do an AP that hits closer to the center of fantasy. Between Serpent's Skull and Jade Regent, you have Carrion Crown. Between Reign of Winter and Skull and Shackles, you had Shattered Star. It isn't an exact science, but there is a certain rhythm to what we do.
I will say that we look at sales closely. And while I am not going to reveal publicly what those sales are, you can bet that if a certain type of book or theme doesn't sell very well, that we won't be going back to that well soon. You can probably figure out which products are selling well by how quickly they end up on the "Going, Going, Gone" list. Or if we end up doing a similar type of product.
I will tell you that folks seem to love when we stretch the boundaries a little bit and play in some new areas. Not everyone of course, but you know what Honest Abe says. And so far, we seem to be pleasing most of the people, most of the time. Which is fine by me!
-Lisa
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Can I just say, I'd like some of the same drugs so I can make the adventures I write even half as interesting?
“ Drug Policy: Anyone found on drugs… must immediately share with everyone else. Did you bring enough for everyone?”
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To address Snow Crash's original issue (since what needs to be said has been said), you can always download the regular modules and turn them into an adventure path on your own. It would still be unique and more "standard" fantasy. You could make adjustments tailored to your own campaign. You could even adjust the difficulty of a module easily. For example, you could take a module written for level 3 characters, slap on some templates and increase the overall difficulty to level 5.
Or, conversely, there are tons of other items out there that make adventures....some of which make pathfinder compatable items. Or some older items. *holds up hands* this isn't to say "like it or go elsewhere" meme- I've said this before, I'll say it again, paizo isn't the same company it was back in '08 when I signed on as a charter subscriber.....which as you see I no longer am. They've done things I dislike(most notable the change in the adventure line) and the nex two AP's hold no interest.
Vote with you wallet as always say.
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Lisa rock!.... and she’s got a cool avatar.
I just faved the post for the Abe Lincoln quote.
