Background: I normally run completely home-brewed campaigns (only important as it explains why this has never been an issue for me in the past). This time around I decided to run the ROTRL AP as I don't have the time I would want to invest to write something completely from scratch.
Problem: A player in my group realized that the AP we were playing through was ROTRL (normally this wouldn't be something you'd feel the need to keep secret from your players, but, I had an inkling he would read ahead and find out what to do/how to solve puzzles/etc, so I kept it to myself).
I had a feeling that he had put a PDF of the ROTRL Anniversary Edition on his iPad and was consulting it for hints as we were playing. I asked another player to keep their eyes open for that and had it confirmed in a game session today that it is indeed what he is doing.
I'm a little torn on how to handle the situation. On one hand, I feel like it sucks a lot of the fun of the game out for the whole group if a player is "spoiled" on what is around the corner. On the other hand I feel like if he wants to ruin it for himself, he can and the rest of the group can still enjoy the campaign.
Definitely open to any advice on how to handle the situation. It's exceptionally frustrating when I see a player acting completely out of character because they know something that the rest of the party doesn't know yet.
Any other GMs experience a similar scenario?
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Away from game: "(Name), you're cheating. I know damn well you're reading ahead in the AP. Stop it, or you will not be participating in the rest of it. Only warning."
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If you can afford the extra time, let him learn the hard way and change things here and there. Crunch can be easily replaced and refluffed.
I'd tell him to stop it, stop acting on the knowledge when it's apparently out of character, or find somewhere else to spend the time you are playing.
After all, if he's allowed to get away with it, why shouldn't everyone else? And where would the fun be in that?
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Away from game: "(Name), you're cheating. I know damn well you're reading ahead in the AP. Stop it, or you will not be participating in the rest of it. Only warning."
That would be the direct and easy solution. Problem is I know him too well and for too long and am nearly certain he'd deny it which would result in an unnecessary argument over an RPG -thus I'm hoping for a creative solution. Definitely appreciate the input though.
If you can afford the extra time, let him learn the hard way and change things here and there. Crunch can be easily replaced and refluffed.
Did that once today where he expected something and and I told him that was not the case to test his reaction which was... telling. (That was the point at which I tried to get confirmation of someone seeing the book open on his screen).
Might be the easiest solution - change enough to the point where he thinks the info he has is unreliable and stops reading it. Let it solve itself.
If he's reading ahead then he's more robbing himself of the experience than anything else, however if he's also acting on all the knowledge and steering things then he's starting to rob the other players.
It's like repeat play of a PFS module - it can be done and you can still have fun, but you are supposed to play it down with "no strong feelings on any matter" type of deal.
The hassle is that if you chip him with warnings and bluster all he will do is be more careful and read it at home instead and bring coded crib notes or something. Perhaps just say to him if he's reading ahead like that he can't also take an active role in steering or guiding the party - basically he reduces himself in rank from party member to a bit of a flunky/hireling and he wont be featuring as any of the plot targets.
If you cannot just ask him to leave and not come back.
I may be taking this a tad to serious but, for me some one cheating like this, is not worth keeping. It is of cause a shame if, he is a dear friend and the godfather of your son. But if that is the case tell him to get a grip or play nintendo instead.
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Cheating at a game you can actually win is deplorable.
Cheating at a game you cannot win is inexplicable.
I guess I remember the bad olde times ancient days where there was so little content around you ended up playing a few key modules a few times - whether they read it out of vicarious interest or had played it in the past doesn't really bother me much - its when they steer the table it becomes a bit rough.
I personally find it hard not to read through some of the AP's as there's a chance I might (one day! but probably not) get to play them - but the temptation is certainly there as they tend to have heaps of other great information in there NOT directly related to the AP, good lore and funky new rules.
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You could ban all electronic devices from the table, if you really don't want the direct approach. You shouldn't have to work harder because of someone else's childish behavior.
Is he actually using the knowledge or just reading ahead?
If he's just reading, there's no real problem. There's a lot of cool stuff in the AP books that will never show up in the campaign proper so easily spelled out.
I also think it's okay if he's using it to speed his turns up somewhat by knowing the base stats of a monster (not acting on metagame knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses, more "Well I rolled a 14 vs its AC which is...15. Okay I missed, we can go ahead.").
If he's actually cheating though...yeah you need to have a talk, that's really your only option besides booting him entirely. If he flat out lies to your face about it (as you say he probably will), he's probably not worth keeping around.
When reading these forums I coincidentily read some information I did not want to know about the kingmaker campaign.
The most fun part of this encounter was the fact that we had bound him to a tree in order to keep him from hurting himself (or more likely others) and see if he would really change. The bandits attacking the camp found him and he was smart enough to explain that he too was a bandit and needed to be liberated from those awfull adventurers and the Paladin (me) and If they couldn't release him from his bonds. The bandits were very suspiscious but started talking instead of attacking him. He managed to postpone a fight for 5 rounds before they did not believe him anymore. The bandits were unable to see how the fight went for their brothers as an obscuring mist was cast in the second round.
After we disposed of the threat posed by the other half of the bandits, I was the first to arrive at the scene and killed the bandit attacking our (transformed) partymember (I could not see that as I was in the obscuring mist) so I used my 5 foot step to advance to what I thought was my teammember and was rudely surprised by the werecreature in his place. luckily he was still sitting down and by getting up he triggered an attack of opportunity (from me) that knocked him out of the fight.
It does not have to be a problem if you have some knowledge of things to come, but reading ahead in order to know where the treasure and the monsters are at is really cheating and should not be encouraged. Besides why would anyone want to do that? The Fun part is not knowing what is about to come or at least for me it is. As a GM I would be seriously pissed if some player was trying to cheat by reading the adventure. A handing over the game to the cheater might be in order: Well if you know what is to come I do not need to GM as you can do that and I can play a character in the campaign. That will usually encourage players not to cheat. And do not discuss if he has or has not been cheating. Simply explain to him that you do not want this and that this game is not to be won by one character but played by everyone for fun.
If that is not his goal why does he want to play????
Well you can add other adventures or homebrew content interspersed or even overwriting portions of the AP.
When something comes up you can just announce that there is no way for his character to know certain things. "Your character has no way of knowing that, especially without a knowledge check and in this case the DC is astronomical."
For instance in a side quest our GM sent us on we encountered what was obviously a mimic. I asked if my character has heard of any such thing privately. He said no. So my urban ranger standing right there trying to pick the lock when the Mimic attacked.
If he is buying supplies ahead of time to overcome specific challenges just change the obstacle or encounter he has bought for. For instance if he is buying extra oil or alchemist fire ect because he expects to encounter trolls. Change the monster or make it a variant "Fire" troll that is healed by fire (instead of electricity).
You can change names of NPC's, places and so on. Give out different treasure, especially if you see him overspending on defense items and in the next group of encounters you are likely to find a weapon his class can put to good use.
Also you can find alternative maps that are close to the same number of rooms and roughly the same size and use the different map with the same room descriptions. Or literally just draw the rooms as on the AP and change how they are connected; different hallways, additional rooms not from the AP.
Lastly through in additional traps in place of others and exchange some items with cursed items. LOL I do this just for fun as it is.
Background: I normally run completely home-brewed campaigns (only important as it explains why this has never been an issue for me in the past). This time around I decided to run the ROTRL AP as I don't have the time I would want to invest to write something completely from scratch.
Problem: A player in my group realized that the AP we were playing through was ROTRL (normally this wouldn't be something you'd feel the need to keep secret from your players, but, I had an inkling he would read ahead and find out what to do/how to solve puzzles/etc, so I kept it to myself).
I had a feeling that he had put a PDF of the ROTRL Anniversary Edition on his iPad and was consulting it for hints as we were playing. I asked another player to keep their eyes open for that and had it confirmed in a game session today that it is indeed what he is doing.
I'm a little torn on how to handle the situation. On one hand, I feel like it sucks a lot of the fun of the game out for the whole group if a player is "spoiled" on what is around the corner. On the other hand I feel like if he wants to ruin it for himself, he can and the rest of the group can still enjoy the campaign.
Definitely open to any advice on how to handle the situation. It's exceptionally frustrating when I see a player acting completely out of character because they know something that the rest of the party doesn't know yet.
Any other GMs experience a similar scenario?
I'm of a different view from most in that I dont consider it cheating at all. I have no problem if a player wants to read ahead, even if they then act on the information - I figure if that's fun for them, that's fun for them.
.Where I'd consider it may be an issue (and I suspect it is) is in the bolded. If his actions are detracting from your enjoyment (because you like surprising your players, maybe. Or because you enjoy gradually revealing the background info to them) or if they're detracting from the other players' enjoyment (because Bob always seems to know just what to do next, so we dont really need to think but can just follow his lead) then I think he's doing the wrong thing.
Presuming his actions are impacting on the others, I dont think a "creative" solution is better than raising it with him privately, really. Changing stuff is kind of removing your reason for playing a pre-written campaign (plus you never know when you're going to change some element which is unexpectedly referenced later - making you um and ah and detracting from everyone's enjoyment again).
You're no doubt right that it will lead to denial - but it might not mean you have to argue about it (like you, I'd be averse to arguing about an RPG). Even if you just shrug and say "it seemed to me you knew what was going on ahead of time, my bad" - that might be enough to make him re-evaluate what he's doing (he probably thinks he's not impacting on anyone else or that he's not acting on the information he has). I dont think "discussing it with him" has to entail "argue with him until he repents and admits the error of his ways".
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Start with speaking to them privately. Avoid a tone of accusation, but do try to back up your disagreements with authority and a clear showing that you know what is going on. Using "I statements" is helpful, as it helps people feel like you're not staging personal attacks against them.
For example: "I've noticed during our games that you seem to be reading ahead, and I feel like that takes away from the experience of the game. I feel like things would run smoother for everyone if you'd leave the outline of the AP itself to me as GM, and focus on playing your character based on the character themselves rather than on what you've seen is coming up ahead."
...Now they could deny that they're reading ahead here, as you've expressed worry that they might. Doing so however, does not change the fact that they are, and you know they are, and obviously you don't want a player who is cheating.
However, laying down an ultimatum (i.e. "If you don't stop, you can leave" is also not the best plan to resort to so quickly. A player who might change their ways if approached more delicately may be forced into a hasty decision by an ultimatum, and may be more likely to stick to their lie in such a case, which could cost you a player who you might not otherwise need to lose. Instead it's better if you can manage to convince the player to want to change their ways.
See if they have any concerns. Are they looking ahead because they feel you're doing a poor job of foreshadowing? Maybe they think their fellow party members are weak, and feel a need to know what's coming to try and protect their allies? There's a number of underlying reasons that could account for why they're looking ahead, and talking openly about concerns is important to resolving these.
This one is something that you can do with all your players! Instead of singling out the one you're having a problem with, how about asking your group their opinion on how you're managing things? A simple "Hey guys, I want to run the best game possible for you all, so I was wondering if there's anything you might suggest I need to work on." could work wonders.
...Of course these are all just suggestions, and while I generally advocate against rash decisions and booting players out, it is sometimes necessary. Fixing issues is a two-way street and even if you do everything perfectly, you'll fail if your player doesn't cooperate with you. Try your best, but don't be afraid to seize control of your game and eliminate the problem if it comes to that.
kick from group, defriend on facebook. It's the only way to be sure.
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Is he actually using the knowledge or just reading ahead?
If he's just reading, there's no real problem. There's a lot of cool stuff in the AP books that will never show up in the campaign proper so easily spelled out.
I also think it's okay if he's using it to speed his turns up somewhat by knowing the base stats of a monster (not acting on metagame knowledge of its strengths and weaknesses, more "Well I rolled a 14 vs its AC which is...15. Okay I missed, we can go ahead.").
If he's actually cheating though...yeah you need to have a talk, that's really your only option besides booting him entirely. If he flat out lies to your face about it (as you say he probably will), he's probably not worth keeping around.
How should the player know what the AC of a monster is? It's up to the DM to determine whether an attack hits or not as only the DM knows the exact AC - there could be buffing or other amendments a player won't know about. If the DM wants to reveal an AC to the party, then that is the DM's prerogative.
If the player wants to know what stuff they missed in the AP then they need to wait until the AP is over.
If the player wants to know what stuff they missed in the AP then they need to wait until the AP is over.
Which is always an extra bit of fun at the end - seeing what was missed or what COULD have been done.
I don't think waiting a year or more to find out if you missed anything is a particularly good option. It's not a "fun extra" it's a "Recap of things you probably have little detailed recollection of".
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Before I started my game, one of the things I talked with my players about was cheating. I told them flat out that I would not enjoy a game if I had to worry about cheating. they agreed that they do not want cheating in the game. So, that means if you cheat, you are out.
Honest mistakes are one thing. Those we can discuss and move past. Cheating is an entirely different thing.
Reading the adventure the GM is running is blatant cheating. I do not know why anyone would want such a person at their table. This especially goes for good friends. Why would a good friend disrespect all the work you do in prep by cheating. That's no friend. I would ask the player to leave and be done with it.
I don't think waiting a year or more to find out if you missed anything is a particularly good option. It's not a "fun extra" it's a "Recap of things you probably have little detailed recollection of".
Then do it at the end of each module if the DM lets you. But even then there is likely to be info that is relevant to later modules.
I agree with the no electronics during the game. Granted he might have some of it memorized, which would defeat that purpose altogether.
You could use your other friends help to end it. Ask the friend that saw it the last time, to speak up when they sees him doing it again, if they're willing of course.
"Is that the AP we're playing right this very minute? Are you looking ahead?"
Catching him in the middle of the act red handed might do the trick. Of course he could just turn that off right when accused, but it's still an option.
If you have the funds or means, you could just switch APs. Might be hard to explain though.
"You know everyone, I found an AP that I think you'd all enjoy a lot more than this..."
You could just talk to him, but you said yourself he'd probably just argue the point. Perhaps you just eject him and tell him why.
If you tell him you know that he's looking ahead, even without confrontational, he may stop looking ahead mid game at least in order to not get discovered... again.
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This guy is a friend?
My group of friends just doesn't seem to have as much lying going on, as it seems here.
Even when we lie to each other, it's well known, and it is more of a "wink & nod" kind of lying, because we all know what is really going on.
The only circumstance in which there was my old friend, who we will call Jace, who is a pathological liar. I mean, he had an actual condition, and would lie, even if it made no sense to do so, and had no reason to think it would not be seen as a lie, and would deny it being a lie, even when confronted with undeniable evidence.
We had an unspoken understanding, as I was his only constant friend.
What about making an agreement with the player on using the knowledge to benefit the story? make him an agent of the GM? if he likes to spoil himself that's his choice (or sometimes necessity - ever had the wonderful luck of choosing exactly the spells that would get no use at all at a given situation? or walk into a situation that you know would make you depend everything on good dice rolls..and your dice never roll high), the matter is that he doesn't spoil the game for others
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Problem: A player in my group realized that the AP we were playing through was ROTRL (normally this wouldn't be something you'd feel the need to keep secret from your players, but, I had an inkling he would read ahead and find out what to do/how to solve puzzles/etc, so I kept it to myself).
<snipped>
Any other GMs experience a similar scenario?
Yes.
Had this a few times before with one player who somehow always had his wizard know what spells to use for any given encounter. The answer was not to confront him over it but to simply change the encounters by placing monsters that were particularly effective against his character in places where there should be no monsters, and changing other monsters around for different ones. Take some creatures out entirely, and put new ones in in different places.
Don't challenge him on it, just let him keep preparing for encounters that aren't happening and wait for the penny to drop. Best of all is if he confronts you over it...and has to admit he's been cheating...
Ban electronics from the table.
If you feel he is cheating or caught metagaming he doesn't gain XP at all for that adventure. A few times of that happening may have him thinking twice. Sure he knows what is going on, but he is a level behind.
If he makes comments that are obviously metagaming net him a -4 to hit, AC, skills, etc for that encounter.
Change up a thing or two. Make sure those changes hurt his playstyle the most. An example would be dropping in a monster that has DR to his weapon type or toss up antimagic fields to annoy his mage.
Tell him if you even feel he is reading ahead or whatnot he is out of the game.
Tons of things you can do to fix it with varied levels of harshness. If you're not willing to do something, then he will continue to act as their are no consequences.
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Best solution is to tell them to cut it out, out of game, but there's never a guarantee that the player will be reasonable and A) admit to it, B) stop it.
If the player is also a friend, and / or friends (or family) with other players, just tossing them out also isn't much of an option. As with family or roommates, sometimes you have to put up with people who have annoying habits. You can't always just cut off every single person who ever does something to annoy you, because there's only six billion people in the world, and every single one of them is human. :)
Passive aggressive solutions, such as penalizing them, or trying to ban electronic devices (which ends up punishing everyone else), etc. aren't great solutions, IMO.
Second best choice, IMO, if talking to them doesn't work, is just changing stuff. Encounter is with a demon? Make it with a different outsider of the same CR, but with different resistances and immunities (perhaps even a bound celestial, forced to guard this area, and *wanting* the party to 'kill' it and free it from this bondage, to return to the higher realms, although forced by the binding to fight to the best of its ability, and not just give up). Dragon? Change the color (and therefore breath weapon and resistances and SLAs). A treacherous NPC becomes a totally reliable NPC, while the totally reliable NPC becomes a doppleganger or whatever. Cult of X becomes cult of Y. Homestead taken over by nasty humanoids becomes homestead overrun by awakened evil giant spiders, etc.
You don't even be sneaky about it (no matter how 'fun' it could be to see the look on the players face when stuff is not how they expected). You can straight up tell everyone that you are going to change encounters and move some stuff around. You don't have to, in front of the others, call out the guy who's the reason for those changes, since the object isn't to provoke a fight or smack anyone's nose with a rolled up newspaper and say 'bad dog!,' but you can just state up front that you're changing stuff.
I've seen this one in use before, and be an effective deterrent. If the player is wondering why another party member can hit a specific AC and they can't, "You are unaware of all the modifiers in effect" is a great catch-all answer.
It could even be treated as a curse, and removed as such...until it comes back again.
Actually this solution seems like the worst possible!
Passive Aggressive in game nonsense seems like a bad idea imo, I would rather talk to adults like adults
I don't think it's being passive aggressive. If your player is cheating you adapt for it.
If OP feel it is being passive aggressive he could make it a part of the conversation that should take place before the next game session.
"I don't like metagaming. Don't read ahead in the AP. Stay in character. If you do not adhere to my rules, I won't kick you out. I'll just up the difficulty to where you won't like it."
That way the problem player knows ahead of time that cheating won't be tolerated and has nobody to blame but himself for the consequences that come with cheating.
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that happened to me...I informed the other players that if they wanted to find out what happened they should ask the player who was reading ahead and that I would find another game to run since the story or adventure didn't actually matter anymore. The shaming the party did to the player that was reading ahead as a result of my statement pretty much stopped it right there.
It didn't matter though ROTRL can be a difficult AP and I TPKd my party two sessions later.
I'll throw in my 2 cents here as well.
As a GM I think the best thing you could possibly do is to let the player know that you think he's reading ahead. Don't call it cheating or be accusatory. Let them know that you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, and that maybe they had a good reason to look through the AP, but that for your campaign you'd appreciate it if they didn't do it in the future. If they're a friend this should be the end of it right there. Even if they deny it, they will have heard what you said, and be unlikely to do so in the future if for no other reason then that they now know you know.
If that really isn't an option, then the second best solution is to just change encounters up.
I dislike the idea of shaming, or being passive aggressive to other players. This might just be me, but I find being straight with people is the best way to get them to be straight back. I've found that other ways have a tendency to either backfire or result in an overall unfun experience.
Hope it all works out well for you and your party.
I've had this problem before just change a few key items and add the odd trap where there's not ment to be one and he'll soon get the message
Another option, when confronting him, is to put it like this:
"I know you have been reading ahead, and I need your help."
Make him your DM's agent. He can be the guy that helps keep the campaign on track.
this.
It seems like you KNOW he is reading ahead. If I was in your shoes and this was a friend of mine, I'd feel pretty betrayed. I would probably, knowing me, get mad, tell him he's not allowed back, and find someone else and end it right there. This kind of behavior is disgusting and unacceptable to me -- others may have a higher tolerance or lower expectations of their friends. For me, it would be difficult to trust that player even if I did call him out and talk to him about it again, but your mileage may vary. Yeah, this is probably on the harsher end of the spectrum. I read a few other responses in this thread that suggested you work with him and make him a GM agent... well, if you're able to do that, you're a better GM than I.
Then again, in the end, he is only cheating himself of the discovery and adventure of that AP, which I have found to be really fun seeing my PCs react to the dangers I put them through. If he wants to cheat himself of the experience, then let him, as long as he isn't spoiling it for the other players, but at the very minimum, change the big encounters so he isn't fully prepared (or prepared at all) for what's to come.
Or, try what others have said, and completely change it up. Depending upon how far you are into the AP, you could really throw him a curveball and secretly switch to Jade Regent (starts in Sandpoint and stars Ameiko) or Shattered Star (starts at a PFS lodge in Magnimar, not far from Sandpoint).
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Without confrontation...I'd play it this way...
Next session, simply say to the whole group that you were reading ahead and you liked some of the stuff and didn't like some if it...so you've made some changes for the good of the group and the experience. That way the whole group is on the same page.
Introduce some new NPCs, just roleplaying ones; traders, captives, adventurers, possible guides, etc...not hard to play or time consuming to write-up. Once he sees these, he won't know what is real or changed.
If there's ogres, call them small giants but keep the same stats.
If there's a pit, move it somewhere else, or have it be a delayed action.
Magical traps...simply change the spell on the trap...maybe from a single target to an area or vise versa.
you can also start seeding some other AP od mod you might like to run in the future or not...it's just there.
I think this happens to most every group playing something old or public. Most groups may not know it...but it's not hard to run through.
I'm one of those players that does not WANT to be spoiled about what's coming... In THIS day and age, and especially on these forums... it's hard NOT to catch a spoiler or two.
It's also not rare that a player may have read an AP before he knew we were going to run it...
I consider that 'accidental' and unfortunate and try to just roll with it.
Having the book open at the table and just reading along?!??! I can't even imagine. I would have a VERY hard time DMing for that player... I would also go out of my way to change everything I could about the AP...
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Reading ahead doesn't need to be a problem. Some people just can't handle not knowing where the story is going very well. They're the types who wait for a book series to be finished before starting to read it so they're not left hanging for years waiting for the next installment. They may be able to handle it for a 2 hour movie, but for a campaign that may last months if not years? They'll never make it.
If he's that kind of person, roll with it. Tell him you know he's reading ahead and that you'll toss in enough changes that he still faces surprises. But make it clear that if he starts to be too good at using the information to make the game easier, other than getting the game moving if genuinely stuck, you'll have to give him the boot. There's a real difference between defusing suspense anxieties and reading a walkthru because you want to know how better to finish the game.
Hopefully, he'll be abashed enough about you confronting with him and giving him that out or excuse that he'll make himself that kind of player.
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make the next belt object you find a girdle of masculinity/femininity.
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You can announce to the group that you will be changing some aspects of the adventure to make it more interesting.
You are the GM & can make changes in a home-game.
I still don't like the idea of the GM being punished (by taking on additional work) because of a player's bad behavior. Yeah, of course he can, but he shouldn't.
I still don't like the idea of the GM being punished (by taking on additional work) because of a player's bad behavior. Yeah, of course he can, but he shouldn't.You can announce to the group that you will be changing some aspects of the adventure to make it more interesting.
You are the GM & can make changes in a home-game.
Throw him in a trunk, and the trunk into the sea.