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** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
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You don't have to see a spell to id it with spellcraft. And if he's casting spells you can hear them. You can't both be stealthy and cast. A detect magic will ping him because the aura won't have the concealment the invisibility is granting him. Just because I can't see him doesn't mean at this point I wouldn't be aware of something going on.Spellcraft requires you to be able to see the spell being cast as per here.
Detect magic wont do anything to ping an invisible target until the third round of concentration as per here. It does nothing to negate concealment.
Good to know. I didn't realize you had to see it to id it.
I didn't say you'd be able to see them if they were invisible. I said the aura from invisibility doesn't get the effect of concealment it's granting the invisible person.
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If an invisible spellcaster gets surprise, and uses their standard action in the surprise round to cast a spell, the verbal component of that spell doesn't nullify the fact that it is a surprise round, that the defender can't act, and that the defender is flat-footed.
That's true, but that doesn't equate to "can't react".
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If an invisible spellcaster gets surprise, and uses their standard action in the surprise round to cast a spell, the verbal component of that spell doesn't nullify the fact that it is a surprise round, that the defender can't act, and that the defender is flat-footed.That's true, but that doesn't equate to "can't react".
We must be doing that thing where we aren't using using words the same. Doesn't flat-footed = can't react?
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We must be doing that thing where we aren't using using words the same. Doesn't flat-footed = can't react?If an invisible spellcaster gets surprise, and uses their standard action in the surprise round to cast a spell, the verbal component of that spell doesn't nullify the fact that it is a surprise round, that the defender can't act, and that the defender is flat-footed.That's true, but that doesn't equate to "can't react".
Depends on Combat Reflexes with weapon drawn, or Uncanny Dodge.
And, in no case, would it negate the ability to try and make a Reflex save against the spell.
And, of course, this brings up the lovely issues with things like Diviner Wizards, who can always have a chance to act during the surprise round. Sometimes, it just isn't going to help.
"Okay, you go on 23. You see the <redacted>, laughing maniacally, at <redacted>. What do you do?"
Sometimes, being able to go fast is not, necessarily, a good thing. Sure, you may no longer be flatfooted, but it is hard to react to something that hasn't happened yet.
Sure, I'll let you go during the surprise round, but if you don't know what's going to happen, how does it help?
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These are about the best case scenarios, and they both require a massive perception check.
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** spoiler omitted **
Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster...
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Hi...
Foresight Wizard here...
Perception is only +19 (22 for traps)... But that's at tenth level...
My other Foresight wizard in PFS is also tenth, but his Perception is +26 before gimmicks to boost it ....
There are always things to do when you see the grid lines appear, but don't know what's going down. My favorite is Vanish...but that's jut me.
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** spoiler omitted **Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster...
"I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."
Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:
"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.
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Admittedly I have *never* seen anyone attempt to counterspell in Pathfinder, so I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules. Can you counterspell a spell when you don't know the source of the spell, but only know that spellcasting is happening?
In most systems I've played in, I would say you couldn't.
Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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That is nothin'. We had a dwarf that had a low chrasima that was the party face. (He uses a different stat for Diplomancy) This is the drunk that carries around several kegs of "the good stuf."
The whole party was drunk and the Dwarf talked out way out of a particular hairy sit-ee-aye-shun.
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** spoiler omitted **Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster..."I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."
Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:
"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.
First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.
So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
So, image making noise at the top of the stairs. Caster, invisible, not moving, casting somewhere else.
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** spoiler omitted **Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster..."I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."
Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:
"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.
First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.
So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
** spoiler omitted **
When it's reversed, the NPC never even has to roll,he seems to just auto-detects me...
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When it's reversed, the NPC never even has to roll,he seems to just auto-detects me...** spoiler omitted **Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster..."I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."
Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:
"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.
First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.
So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
** spoiler omitted **
And that is one of the GMs that this thread is dedicated to.
Me, I try to do it right, both ways. Sometimes, though, and I try to explain it later, the monster has an ability that negates one or more of your bonuses to Stealth, like being able to see invisible. Which is why Gaseous Form, after a while, is a better escape option potion than Invisibility.
Monsters that can use Darkness or Deeper Darkness at will, with see in darkness and sneak attack dice.
Monsters with Scent, Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremor Sense, True Seeing, and so on.
Monsters who are always invisible, up to and including the equivalent of Greater Invisibility, so they don't appear even when attacking.
Or just with obscene levels of Perception, somehow.
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When it's reversed, the NPC never even has to roll,he seems to just auto-detects me...** spoiler omitted **Heh. Most Diviner Wizards I have seen don't put much into Perception, since they don't need it to go during the surprise round.
Of course, it only takes a few times of going first without having the foggiest idea what you are going first versus, to make them rethink that.
So, you get to go first. Whatcha doing?
Plenty of options, but not much help if you don't know whether you are going before a melee monster, ranged monster, or caster monster..."I ready an action to counterspell an enemy spellcaster."
Completely reasonable surprise round choice. Alternatively, for this particular scenario:
"I ready an action to cast a spell if I hear spellcasting from an enemy." Fireball them in response. Force a concentration check.
First one: Spellcaster is laughing, loudly, like an idiot at the top of the stairs. All he does is laugh.
So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
** spoiler omitted **
And that is one of the GMs that this thread is dedicated to.
Me, I try to do it right, both ways. Sometimes, though, and I try to explain it later, the monster has an ability that negates one or more of your bonuses to Stealth, like being able to see invisible. Which is why Gaseous Form, after a while, is a better escape option potion than Invisibility.
Monsters that can use Darkness or Deeper Darkness at will, with see in darkness and sneak attack dice.
Monsters with Scent, Blindsense, Blindsight, Tremor Sense, True Seeing, and so on.
Monsters who are always invisible, up to and including the equivalent of Greater Invisibility, so they don't appear even when attacking.Or just with obscene levels of Perception, somehow.
LOL, sounds like you are discribing several of my PCs...including this one.....
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**Stuff that gets spoiled**Is there any way in scenario to get a heads up that this going to happen? I mean, an
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Resist energy is a nice 10 minute per level spell - I have a few characters who use an lesser extend rod to put a resist energy fire on themselves at the start of the crawl - mostly for alchemist defense, since their touch AC is not good. (only mitigates 10 or 20 of the damage, but that often is the difference between conscious and not
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Admittedly I have *never* seen anyone attempt to counterspell in Pathfinder, so I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules. Can you counterspell a spell when you don't know the source of the spell, but only know that spellcasting is happening?
In most systems I've played in, I would say you couldn't.
** spoiler omitted **
I have a spell warrior character - I have done it occasionally. What I realized early on though, a lot of spells you can't counterspell with the same spell, because you have to be within range.
So if you want to counterspell invisibility with invisibility you have to be within range - which is touch. My spell warrior picked spells with long range to counter up with- but still it is a silly class because it is based on skald and when I have 3rd level spells to counter 2nd level spells, the bad guys are casting 4th and 5th level spells.
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Admittedly I have *never* seen anyone attempt to counterspell in Pathfinder, so I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules. Can you counterspell a spell when you don't know the source of the spell, but only know that spellcasting is happening?
In most systems I've played in, I would say you couldn't.
** spoiler omitted **
I have a spell warrior character - I have done it occasionally. What I realized early on though, a lot of spells you can't counterspell with the same spell, because you have to be within range.
So if you want to counterspell invisibility with invisibility you have to be within range - which is touch. My spell warrior picked spells with long range to counter up with- but still it is a silly class because it is based on skald and when I have 3rd level spells to counter 2nd level spells, the bad guys are casting 4th and 5th level spells.
Well, the iconic spell for counterspelling, and it has range and works against just about anything, is dispel magic and its siblings.
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So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
You can't both stealth and cast. At best the DC would be 15 to "hear the details of a whispered conversation". Even that would be stretching it because to cast a spell (with verbal components) you must "be able to speak in a strong voice."
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You can't both stealth and cast. At best the DC would be 15 to "hear the details of a whispered conversation". Even that would be stretching it because to cast a spell (with verbal components) you must "be able to speak in a strong voice."
So, go ahead, make me a Perception check. Can you make me a 40+ Perception check?
Stealth doesn't break until *after* the action that breaks it. That includes casting. Otherwise Arcane Tricksters wouldn't work.
EDIT: From an action standpoint, you are working on the previous round's Stealth check.
EDIT 2: But you were probably referring to the buffing ahead of time, not the Shocking Grasp attack. For that I agree with you.
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EDIT 2: But you were probably referring to the buffing ahead of time, not the Shocking Grasp attack. For that I agree with you.
Yeah, that's the part I'm talking about.
The Loud noise while the double cackles penalizes your perception DCs. The base DC for hearing a conversation are covered in perception. Add 20 for Invisibilty (doesn't state doesn't apply RAW) and distance modifiers as appropriate. Nowhere does it state you cannot make noise and be invisible.
Of course invisible creatures can make noises, no even implied that they can't. But if they're making noises, they're not stealthing, so the stealth bonus from invisibility doesn't apply. Now I have no idea what the distance is or what kind of penalty there is for the double cackling. But hearing someone speak "in a strong voice" can't be difficult if we're in the same room even with some background cackling noise.
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Well, the iconic spell for counterspelling, and it has range and works against just about anything, is dispel magic and its siblings.Admittedly I have *never* seen anyone attempt to counterspell in Pathfinder, so I'm pretty fuzzy on the rules. Can you counterspell a spell when you don't know the source of the spell, but only know that spellcasting is happening?
In most systems I've played in, I would say you couldn't.
** spoiler omitted **
I have a spell warrior character - I have done it occasionally. What I realized early on though, a lot of spells you can't counterspell with the same spell, because you have to be within range.
So if you want to counterspell invisibility with invisibility you have to be within range - which is touch. My spell warrior picked spells with long range to counter up with- but still it is a silly class because it is based on skald and when I have 3rd level spells to counter 2nd level spells, the bad guys are casting 4th and 5th level spells.
The problem with dispel magic is that it requires a caster level check. If you ready to counterspell and they cast fireball and you have a fireball ready/prepared - it is automatic - no roll required - but yes once I got to dispel magic as a possibility it was chosen.
Sorry about the derail
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I've found that, in general, the best counterspell if I'm ready to respond to spell casting is magic missile. It does reasonable damage, never misses, has no save, only one defense and is only first level so if it doesn't break the casters concentration you're not out a lot.The problem with dispel magic is that it requires a caster level check. If you ready to counterspell and they cast fireball and you have a fireball ready/prepared - it is automatic - no roll required - but yes once I got to dispel magic as a possibility it was chosen.
Sorry about the derail
If it is memorized/known perhaps - but quite a few classes don't get magic missile - and shield is quite common as well. Plus an invisible caster you can't hit with magic missile, where in theory you could make the spellcraft to figure out the spell without line of sight.
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If it is memorized/known perhaps - but quite a few classes don't get magic missile - and shield is quite common as well. Plus an invisible caster you can't hit with magic missile, where in theory you could make the spellcraft to figure out the spell without line of sight.
Unfortunately, you need to actually see the spell to identify it. Outside of PFS I houserule that verbal components are enough, though.
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
Necroooooo
How bout this one? You discover the scenario wants you to undermine a LE government but the party is comprised of a Chelish cleric (with the law domain, of course), a Chelish inquistor, the inquistor's slave and a random gnome.
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You know you're in trouble when you sit down and ask if the party has a face. Everyone looks around and decides that your character, who is known for screwing up social encounters in hilarious ways, is now elected as team lead and party face.
"Do you really want OKAY THEN!" Clasps hands together eagerly.
** spoiler omitted **
This is my Paladin most games. We've got a pretty even spread of archtypes in our meta, but only our core of older players really get into roleplaying encounters. So my 6 INT Paladin with breathtaking emotional problems (eagerly) takes the lead!
Despite his own blunders, he somehow still makes it through things (most of the time).
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why do people turn to my aasimar Cleric and expect him to be the diplomat of the party with an 8 Cha and 1 rank in Diplomacy at 7th level... *sigh* out come the wands and scrolls...
This is why I don't use the word "cleric" when introducing my pirate PC. Yes, Besmara gives him divine power, including the ability to use Cure wands, but that's all the healing he can provide. Yet when some people hear the word "cleric", they automatically translate it to "healer" in their head.