Where is this other 40 damage coming from?Agile short swords with a +1 or +2 enhancement. I forget which.
Alright, that adds 6 damage per hit. The problem is they still require flanking. Unless they take certain feats and lose an attack to feint.
Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding and skills are an amazing combo that you have to build carefully to obtain otherwise. And you find ways to get your sneak.
Internal/Vivisectionist Alchemist, they get poison and disease immunity, uncanny dodge, sneak attack. Take 2 levels in master chymist and you gain evasion. Take the trap finding trait or 1 lv in trapper ranger. Being an int based class, you will only be a couple skill points behind a rogue. Also, they get greater invisibility so they can sneak attack more often. Not to mention the higher to hit bonus. And you don't have to be a dex build to do well.
The rogue is roughly on par with a power attacking barbarian as long as they can get their sneak attacks in.
This is a laughable assertion.
1: Take any Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin build
2: Remake it as a Rogue (possibly with level dip into other class) as close to the original setup as you can.In most cases, the Rogue build will be doing more damage than the original when it gets sneak attack.
So when your dm handholds you into position for sneak attacking.
I think I'll take always functioning damage over situational damage that you won't get till 2-3 rounds into the combat.
Also my Horizon Walker build is raising an eye brow. For pure damage, I haven't found anything comparable to it.
1: Take any Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin build
2: Remake it as a Rogue (possibly with level dip into other class) as close to the original setup as you can.In most cases, the Rogue build will be doing more damage than the original when it gets sneak attack.
...If by when it gets sneak attacks you mean when it can hit things...
Because that BAB+other stuff to-hit difference is pretty severe. Not to mention strength rogues are extremely squishy. No, wearing armor doesn't make up for it and you have to dip be proficient.
That being said if you use a 2H weapon and strength the Rogue is much less bad and will eclipse a Ranger on average in damage
Sadly this is not even true.
That being said if you use a 2H weapon and strength the Rogue is much less bad and will eclipse a Ranger on average in damageSadly this is not even true.
Yea, if the ranger is doing the same, the rogue would only do deal more damage when he gets sneak attack. That's not even taking into account his lower hit bonus, so he will be hitting less than the ranger.
|
As always, the adventure and table style affects this in so many ways.
For example, with Kingmaker's encounter-a-day budgeting, the barbarian can destroy the rogue in effective damage.
OTOH, most Runelords games I've seen have regularly taken in 10 encounters with no rest - and barbarians are usually without rage rounds, bards are without luck, and alchemists are without mutagens for half the rounds the party is in combat in a given day (and often the most important combat of that day). In these days, the rogue has had a significant advantage because he can continue to seek opportunities to sneak attack.
A perspective dominated by certain APs or organized play with 3 encounters or less a day heavily skews against the rogue's staying power vs classes.
This is probably a good reason for the designers to consider a few rogue talents that allow the rogues to shine more brightly in short days versus their contemporaries.
Imagine a new rogue talent (that only comes from achieving a certain level (6th?) in an archetype that stacks with many others - to prevent other classes that can access rogue talents) that allow a rogue once per day to automatically hit with a critical strike. This is pretty damn good in 1-3 encounter per day games, but fairly average in 10-12 encounter per day games. For those folks discussing balance vs paladins/barbarians/bards/alchemists, they'd then factor in this particular rogue.
Yea, if the ranger is doing the same, the rogue would only do deal more damage when he gets sneak attack. That's not even taking into account his lower hit bonus, so he will be hitting less than the ranger.That being said if you use a 2H weapon and strength the Rogue is much less bad and will eclipse a Ranger on average in damageSadly this is not even true.
The Rogue could be using Sword of Subtlety: that is +4 hit/dam when sneak attacking. Only 22K
I'm playing a Barbarian in RotRL right now, level 14 (well, the last two levels have been Fighter, but hey).
I can count on the fingers of one...finger the times I've dipped below 10 Rage rounds.
IIRC that time was when we wiped out an entire section of cave, with about 10 Giants, some undead spider things, and two flying robo-dogs, along with a boss fight that lasted an extraordinary amount of rounds because I managed to roll a 1 vs Stinking Cloud. I was in Rage non-stop for the 10 Giants, including travel time between the two converging groups (several rounds worth) since I didn't want to be Fatigued for a minute afterwards after the first fight.
The Rogue could be using Sword of Subtlety: that is +4 hit/dam when sneak attacking. Only 22KYea, if the ranger is doing the same, the rogue would only do deal more damage when he gets sneak attack. That's not even taking into account his lower hit bonus, so he will be hitting less than the ranger.That being said if you use a 2H weapon and strength the Rogue is much less bad and will eclipse a Ranger on average in damageSadly this is not even true.
Only 22k? Wow, what a steal. Meanwhile for that price anyone could get a +3 weapon and still have 4k left over.
But the thing is, the sword of subtlety only proves its bonus when you make a sneak attack. While the +3 weapon always provides its bonus. Which goes back to my original point, the rogue will only out damage the ranger when he gets sneak attack. Sure, when making a sneak attack the rogue would get an additional +1 to hit over the +3 weapon, but the ranger will still hit more often and is not reliant on flanking.
**This modifier assumes that the character is actively using Stealth, not just relying on invisibility.
So? How does that go against what I said?
Invisibility makes you better at hiding (i.e.: using Stealth) from a blind man in a completely dark room.
That's exactly what I said.
|
|
Using spoilers to protect RotRL encounters and reply to Rynjin.
Here's where I've seen 10 or more encounters in a day, with 40+ rounds of combat in a day where a barbarian at that level wouldn't have enough rage rounds (unless quantity of rage rounds was something they heavily optimized towards at the expense of the quality of those rage rounds)
1) Thistletop-in-a-day (3rd level IIRC?)
2) Foxglove Manor-in-a-day (5th level IIRC?)
3) Fort Rannick-in-a-day (8th level IIRC?)
Certain groups will vary. A 4-person group with a 15 point buy going through the encounters as written (the default assumption) will take 25%-33% more time in combat than a 5-6 person group with a 20 point buy.
|
|
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
Mate. Strength Rogues being the best builds aren't a huge surprise. The sad thing is those things are Rogues only in name.
Conceptually, the first guy doesn't even look like Rogue. He looks like a hulking brute.
The second dude can hardly be called a Rogue from all that multiclassing.
Okay... so, keeping this as brief as possible as I don't use HL so this isn't just a copy/paste job for me. The attack portions are:
Wraith Slayer, shoanti superstitious barbarian 11
+24/20/17/12 doing 2d6+28
+2 furious greatsword with rage, power attack, and furious focus
Variel Thrune, elf rogue 11
+15/15/15/10/10 doing 1d6+8 w/ 6d6 sneak attacks
2, +1 agile shortswords with twf, gtr twf, and double slice
dex of 24 for +7
I'm remembering I did factor in haste in my numbers before. We have a wizard who casts haste like it's going out of style. It was an assumption when building these characters.
Hmm... Variel's numbers are only coming to 105 on average. Unsure where I was getting the rest looking at the sheet now. Wraith Slayer's come to 136. So, not as close as I was thinking. Variel's damage isn't bad to any degree, though.
Hmm... Variel's numbers are only coming to 105 on average. Unsure where I was getting the rest looking at the sheet now. Wraith Slayer's come to 136. So, not as close as I was thinking. Variel's damage isn't bad to any degree, though.
It is when you consider that it is situational too.
Rogues biggest contribution to fights is sneak attack. Even when the stars align to give you a full-attack while flanking, you are still subpar.
Much more seriously, I don't think there's any resignation, official or not, but I do think there's a lack of good content and I don't think that's entirely intentional, though it might feel like it sometime.I dont know MrSin. We've been clamoring for good Rogue talents for awhile and traps like Trap Spotter* and Rumormonger keep getting through.
*Isn't as good as it seems if you read how Perception works.
No, this has been pointed out to you several times, you are misreading how Perception works. It takes a move action to use Perception for traps.
Ok, sure- there are other classes than can do trapfinding. So?
Sorc can do Fireball, does that mean Wizard is obsolete? Heck, not only Sorcerer but Magus, Witch, Oracle, Cleric and what not.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Much more seriously, I don't think there's any resignation, official or not, but I do think there's a lack of good content and I don't think that's entirely intentional, though it might feel like it sometime.I dont know MrSin. We've been clamoring for good Rogue talents for awhile and traps like Trap Spotter* and Rumormonger keep getting through.
*Isn't as good as it seems if you read how Perception works.
No, this has been pointed out to you several times, you are misreading how Perception works. It takes a move action to use Perception for traps.
Ok, sure- there are other classes than can do trapfinding. So?
Sorc can do Fireball, does that mean Wizard is obsolete? Heck, not only Sorcerer but Magus, Witch, Oracle, Cleric and what not.
The rogue is obsolete because many classes can do EVERYTHING rogues can do+ more at the same time.
Warrior is to fighter as rogue is to X
X is a fairly large list
|
|
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
Mate. Strength Rogues being the best builds aren't a huge surprise. The sad thing is those things are Rogues only in name.
Conceptually, the first guy doesn't even look like Rogue. He looks like a hulking brute.
The second dude can hardly be called a Rogue from all that multiclassing.
So, the hulking brute. Agronak. He's still most definitely a rogue, even though he does play as a hulking brute.
Atash started Fighter 1/Rogue 7/Duelist 3 when he went into the PFS retirement arc. I didn't dip monk until after that. He was most definitely a rogue back then. Let me unlevel him...
Atash ibn Behnam
Male Human (Keleshite) Duelist 3/Fighter (Lore Warden) 1/Rogue 7
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +19
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 38, touch 29, flat-footed 26 (+9 armor, +8 Dex, +5 deflection, +4 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 75 (4d10+7d8+12)
Fort +12, Ref +21 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +11
Defensive Abilities canny defense, evasion, parry, trap sense, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine scimitar +19/+14 (1d6+12/15-20/×2+2 fire) and
+4 silversheen scimitar +22/+17 (1d6+15/15-20/×2+2 fire)
Special Attacks precise strike, sneak attack +4d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 26, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +9; CMD 38
Feats Dervish Dance, Dodge, Following Step, Improved Critical (scimitar), Iron Will, Mobility, Spring Attack, Step Up, Step Up and Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits flame of the dawnflower, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +21, Climb +14, Diplomacy +12, Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +20, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (history) +20, Knowledge (local) +20, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +20, Linguistics +20, Perception +19 (+22 to locate traps), Perform (dance) +4, Profession (scribe) +5, Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +11, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Aboleth, Abyssal, Aklo, Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Ignan, Infernal, Kelish, Osiriani, Ancient, Shoanti, Skald, Sylvan, Terran, Thassilonian, Undercommon, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ enhanced mobility, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, trap spotter, weapon training), trapfinding +3
Combat Gear Gloves of arrow snaring (2/day), Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Snapleaf, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear Celestial armor, +1 Adamantine Scimitar, +4 Silversheen Scimitar, Bead of newt prevention, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Golembane scarab, Handy haversack (3 @ 15 lbs), Headband of vast intelligence +6 (Sense Motive, Kn, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Necklace of adaptation, Ring of protection +5, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Climber's kit, Noble's outfit, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Weapon cord (10), 25932 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Absalom Townhouse (empty) (1/session) +2 to interaction skills in own district, +4 to Know (local) & gather info if active.
Bead of newt prevention When bearer fails save vs hostile polymorph effect it is negated & the bead destroyed.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Canny Defense +3 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a threatened square.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Flame of the Dawnflower +2 damage with a scimitar on a critical hit.
Following Step You may move 10' with Step Up, and still get a 5' step on your next turn.
Gloves of arrow snaring (2/day) Once worn, these snug gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible to casual observation. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat (see Chapter 5 for details), even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective, and at least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Cost 2,000 gp
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Necklace of adaptation Immune to all harmful vapors and gases and can breathe anywhere.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Step Up and Strike When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make an attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may als
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
His wealth by level still might be off, however, this is fairly close to his entry into the retirement arc. He is still a solid rogue.
I have more rogue builds I can post to back up my claims. I tend to do them more than I should. 1 Oracle, 1 rogue, 1 sorc, 1 rogue... etc.
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
Mate. Strength Rogues being the best builds aren't a huge surprise. The sad thing is those things are Rogues only in name.
Conceptually, the first guy doesn't even look like Rogue. He looks like a hulking brute.
The second dude can hardly be called a Rogue from all that multiclassing.
So, the hulking brute. Agronak. He's still most definitely a rogue, even though he does play as a hulking brute.
Atash started Fighter 1/Rogue 7/Duelist 3 when he went into the PFS retirement arc. I didn't dip monk until after that. He was most definitely a rogue back then. Let me unlevel him...
** spoiler omitted **...
(My apologies, the Rogue level wasn't present on the first posting of Atash)
Which is great. I'm glad you were able to build an effective character with a Rogue.
That doesn't stop other classes from bringing everything the Rogue does and more.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Using spoilers to protect RotRL encounters and reply to Rynjin.
** spoiler omitted **
I went through all those same segments in a day each.
Our party had 4 casters. (Magus, Bard, Cleric, Witch).No sweat broken.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
While you're "soloing mobs", casters are soloing encounters. Or entire dungeons.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, this has been pointed out to you several times, you are misreading how Perception works. It takes a move action to use Perception for traps.
No, it doeesn't...
Again, you only have circumstantial evidence gathered from non-core sources which themselves rely on the designers misapprehensions about the rules.
Let me ask you, when Prone Shooter was published, did it make it impossible to shoot a crossbow while prone? It's the same thing.
So I just linked two builds that are effective rogues by PFS guidelines. I mean, if you're looking for more toys... then by all means, yes, rogues are underpowered and give us more toys. I agree.
If you're just making baseless assumptions, where are the issues with the above characters. I've been solo with mobs on both builds while the party handles one or two others.
It's not that either build is bad, it's just that there are other classes that bring everything the rogue does, and more.
Okay... so, keeping this as brief as possible as I don't use HL so this isn't just a copy/paste job for me. The attack portions are:
Wraith Slayer, shoanti superstitious barbarian 11
+24/20/17/12 doing 2d6+28
+2 furious greatsword with rage, power attack, and furious focus
Variel Thrune, elf rogue 11
+15/15/15/10/10 doing 1d6+8 w/ 6d6 sneak attacks
2, +1 agile shortswords with twf, gtr twf, and double slice
dex of 24 for +7
I'm remembering I did factor in haste in my numbers before. We have a wizard who casts haste like it's going out of style. It was an assumption when building these characters.
Hmm... Variel's numbers are only coming to 105 on average. Unsure where I was getting the rest looking at the sheet now. Wraith Slayer's come to 136. So, not as close as I was thinking. Variel's damage isn't bad to any degree, though.
First of all the barbarian's numbers seem a little off, i assume that his STR is 24 before rage. If i am correct, and including haste (without including things like reckless abandon or witch hunter or improved critical or courageous weapon) his attack routine should be:
+26/+23/+18/+13 doing 2d6+28.Now if we have both of them full attack against an AC of 25 and the rogue applies his sneak attack on all of his attacks, the DPR for each one are:
Wraith Slayer 117.425 DPR
Variel Thrune 75.7125 DPR
So no, not close.
|
|
It's not that either build is bad, it's just that there are other classes that bring everything the rogue does, and more.
I guess that depends on what you're looking for.
Sneak attack dice, Evasion, Trapfinding and Uncanny Dodge with skills are what I'm generally looking for.
I dip to get other things from other classes the same way they dip into rogue to get little tricks. Barbarian Monk aren't allowed so you have a higher point of entry if you want those things combined. I wouldn't mind seeing more archtypes that give up rogue talents in exchange for good stuff, as it is though, I tend to agree that almost all the rogue archtypes aren't great. Though, their flavor is flavorful.
I haven't seen builds that resemble those two yet. Not to say they aren't possible. I'm a fan of having a lot of options in combat and out of combat with a highly mobile fighter that has the ability to spike damage easily. Rogues have that option if you build them correctly. Dazzling display shatter defense scouts is another great example. Or a rogue with an animal companion and sniper goggles.
We don't misunderstand what the OP is saying. We simply flat out don't agree with it.Quick, lets not talk about what MrSin was and tell him he's wrong and tell the OP he's wrong!
Quick! Let's momentarily switch sides so we can narrate what we're doing!
Quick! Let's pointlessly deride an irrelevant posting quirk without contributing to the argument!
Quick! Let's confuse ourselves getting meta and...uh...wait, wasn't I supposed to switch my side back to yours? Crap, now I really am confused. I'm outta here!
I think a lot of the reason people hate rogues is because rogues are, by their definition, a subtle class. People who try to make combat monsters may end up a tad disappointed. ;)
Also, I notice a lot of the potential counters to my arguments involve complicated builds, so here's a question for that: If a class needs a convoluted design to beat it, isn't it already, if not perfect, good enough?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As soon as there's at least one other person in the party who's primary combat action is to hit people, Bard becomes a really good damage class, even before you factor in the benefits of their spellcasting. (Plus they're far and away the best skills class in the game, leaving the other high-skill classes - rogue, ninja, wizard, witch, ranger, summoner, inquisitor - totally in the dust, at least until very high levels.)
I don't think trapspotter is a trap, but otherwise agree.The Search skill from 3.5 was the one that required you to find traps. It had the requirement of needing a full-round action to search a 5 by 5 square for traps.
Perception, the skill now used to find traps, has no such caveats. In addition, Perception is made reactively to observable stimuli, such as when you step into the room, you don't have to ask to roll perception to see whats in it. You roll Perception immediately in response to everything that *could* be observed within it. This includes hidden enemies, the intricate tapestry on the wall and the log trap rigged up to slam into you if you take another step.
In addition, since the Perception penalty only increases with each 10 feet, if you have a good Perception bonus, you can potentially find traps from farther away.
So Trap Spotter doesn't actually do anything. Since coming within potential sight of an observable stimulus gives us a Perception check reactively to spot it anyways.
Its just as bad as Rumormonger in that it doesn't actually grant you anything.
Hmm, yeah that's interesting. I remember puzzling this over before a looong time ago and I saw an argument somewhere that convinced me traps don't trigger passive perception checks. I don't remember what the case was that was made or how authoritative the source was, so I reallizethis is beyond anecdotal, I just remeber that I was satisfied enough to file that concern away and not worry about it again :)
Maybe it's by dint of being unobservable without a specific effort to interact with the environment? But then you would need to search for people using perception to. Hmm. Maybe it's just an implied exception to how things otherwise work?
I dunno, but the very existence of Trap Spotter strongly implies what the intent is. And it's a central feature of a core class, not something a freelancer submitted at some late stage in a splat that could have slipped through editing.
Rogues will come up a little short if you consider them only as damage dealers. A rogue won't deal damage like a ranger or barbarian, but they can get fairly close under the right circumstances. Trapfinding is also not the end-all, be-all of a rogue. They have tons of skills, and plenty of talents that improve skill use. They have UMD as a class skill. They have some nice defensive advantages, such as evasion (and I like slippery mind, at higher levels).
Compared to a ninja, a rogue is missing approximately one to two line items by level 6, and that's about the worst that can be said of them. Even compared to the ninja, the rogue does have some minor advantages, so the ninja isn't a no-brainer.
By the high teens, the rogue has lost a significant amount of ground in BAB and hit points, but with UMD, Acrobatics, and Stealth, should be able to do extra duty in other roles.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's weird, I used to naysay the bard continually. Then I was like "you know what, I'm going to play one, and play it my way." I found the Bard class to be nearly infinitely mutable, and ultimately amenable to my playstyle. I played a debuffer bard who spammed grease and glitterdust and hideous laughter which, on top of the Inspire Courage bonus to hit and damage, made combat encounters a breeze.
On top of that, I was a phenomenally talented party face and with tactful use of Glibness, had most of the quest hub town's leaders eating out of the palm of my hand. I even ran for (and won!) elected office!
But myself, I was a combat weakling.
Then I ran Ravenloft and a friend decided to play a bard, no doubt impressed by my turn in the role, and I expected him to play much like I had. Astonishingly, he played a buffer archer bard to great effect.
|
We don't misunderstand what the OP is saying. We simply flat out don't agree with it.Quick, lets not talk about what MrSin was and tell him he's wrong and tell the OP he's wrong!Quick! Let's momentarily switch sides so we can narrate what we're doing!
Quick! Let's pointlessly deride an irrelevant posting quirk without contributing to the argument!
Quick! Let's confuse ourselves getting meta and...uh...wait, wasn't I supposed to switch my side back to yours? Crap, now I really am confused. I'm outta here!
** spoiler omitted **
Also, I notice a lot of the potential counters to my arguments involve complicated builds, so here's a question for that: If a class needs a convoluted design to beat it, isn't it already, if not perfect, good enough?
Whaaaaat? That bit about the Bard has to be a joke, right? Bards way out-DPR Rogues, in particular when you consider that a Bard will be buffing the rest of the party, too.
It's not that either build is bad, it's just that there are other classes that bring everything the rogue does, and more.I guess that depends on what you're looking for.
Sneak attack dice, Evasion, Trapfinding and Uncanny Dodge with skills are what I'm generally looking for.
I dip to get other things from other classes the same way they dip into rogue to get little tricks. Barbarian Monk aren't allowed so you have a higher point of entry if you want those things combined. I wouldn't mind seeing more archtypes that give up rogue talents in exchange for good stuff, as it is though, I tend to agree that almost all the rogue archtypes aren't great. Though, their flavor is flavorful.
The internal/vivisectionist alchemist I mentioned at the top of the page gets all that and more. They get full sneak attack progression, trapfinding from the trait or a 1 lv dip, they get uncanny dodge at 6th lv and will have at least 7 skill points per level. Then you can take 2 levels in master chymist and get evasion by 9th lv. Being an int based "caster" class they will likely have 7 skill points a level (8 with favored class bonus).
They also get +4 to saves vs poison and diseases at 6th lv, which increases to +6 at 8th lv and becomes immunity at 10th lv. That's in additional to all the discoveries and extracts they get. Depending on the rogues int, they could have a couple more skill points per level. But even if you don't get trap finding, I'd say that's a fair trade compared to everything else the alchemist gets.
I think the premise of the thread falls flat when you consider that Paizo continues to release new Archetypes and Options for Rogues, many that Ninjas cannot take. I'm sure that doesn't change many people here's opinino on the Rogue, but it certainly does not amount to them being "resigned" with the Rogue, even if Paizo is not exactly conforming to these critics' wishes. Options like the Trapfinding Trait in fact also work great for those Rogue Archetypes that replace it for other abilities (which people seem to find compelling).
BTW, somebody mentioned "Barbarian Monk aren't allowed" when that is far from true. Besides options for non-Lawful Monks, you can also be an EX-Monk and mix all those abilities with Barbarian... you just can't progress further in Monk. It's 100% feasable to start play from 1st level as a Neutral/Chaotic "Ex Monk" with full Monk powers who proceeds into Barbarian. Great approach if you want anything with Improved UAS a pre-req, with +2 to all Saves as a bonus.
There is a trait from blood of angels that allows a neutral aasimar to continue to progress in both monk and barbarian.
I played an ex-Monk barbarian once (also levels in Psychic Warrior).
There is a trait from blood of angels that allows a neutral aasimar to continue to progress in both monk and barbarian.
Not quite, it flat out allows Neutral and Neutral Good Monks.
So here is a question for you all.
With the upcoming Investigator and Slayer, what is the point of the rogue now...
If you want super skills and utility: play the Investigator.
If you want the more combat rogue: play the Slayer...
There is a trait from blood of angels that allows a neutral aasimar to continue to progress in both monk and barbarian.Not quite, it flat out allows Neutral and Neutral Good Monks.
And barbarians can be neutral, so it allows you to continue progressing in both classes if you choose to. Sorry if I worded it strangely.
So here is a question for you all.
With the upcoming Investigator and Slayer, what is the point of the rogue now...
If you want super skills and utility: play the Investigator.
If you want the more combat rogue: play the Slayer...
The rogue has been dead much longer than that. The ACG will just add even more reason not to play a rogue.
So here is a question for you all.
With the upcoming Investigator and Slayer, what is the point of the rogue now...
If you want super skills and utility: play the Investigator.
If you want the more combat rogue: play the Slayer...
Both classes are awful.
That books exist mainly for the shaman.
So here is a question for you all.
With the upcoming Investigator and Slayer, what is the point of the rogue now...
If you want super skills and utility: play the Investigator.
If you want the more combat rogue: play the Slayer...
Both classes are awful.
That books exist mainly for the shaman.
The Warpriest actually looks kinda nice from the oddball builds that can come out of it and be effective.
And the Investigator looks good.
I'm actually disappointed with the last revision on the Shaman but we'll see how it turns out.