|
Lol, funny thing is that an rogue/wizard/arcane trickster or Even a Alchemist/Wizard/ arcane trickster makes a better rogue than rogues....Rogue 1/Wizard 19 is the best "rogue build" for people who like playing wizards. The idea that every option in the game has to be as good or better than arcane spellcasting is ridiculous.
Rogues =/= Wizards
You're right, of course.
Rogues<Wizards
Rogues~Experts
Half the time expert probably makes a better rogue than rogue.
Apparently the archetye have too much and it was bad designed, not my words of course.
Yes, I did see one of the designers say that the Lore Warden CMB/CMD bonus was too good during the discussions of the brawler play test. Of course the fact that CMB/CMD becomes a farce at high levels when those bonuses actually start to stack up to something meaningful didn't seem to impinge upon his consciousness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations. They also get the most skill points. Never have understood the 'Rogues are so mis-treated' angst.Someone has not met monsters near choke points, corners, or walls.Choke points - Go through their choke point with tumbling. That's what all those skill points are for.
Corners - If they are melee monsters laugh at them while you kill them from range. If not... leave. They can't stop you while they're hiding in the corner.
Walls - Can still be flanked. No problem.
Choke points - tumble past and then die, because you obviously missed the tactical reason for choke points
Corners - laughing is your most effective action Mr. base weapon damage short bow
Walls - Always one of the above two problems.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Step 1): Put the trapfinding trait on a ninja
Step 2): Roleplay it as if it was a rogue.
Step 3) Forget that someday it was a class called rogue!
4) Cross out "ki" Write in "Magnificient Bastardry"
(i used to say penache but then along came the swashbuckler)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, some people claim the rogue isn’t a weak class. Just exactly what are they good at? Or to put it in other words: What do they bring to the party or even to the game?
Do we have traps in the game so the rogue can feel useful?
The Rogue is bad at dealing damage; she is not the skill masters (and even if she was, skills aren’t very good at higher levels); her rogue talents are mostly weak (or even very weak); and the only thing she got going for her is trapfinding, but as others have pointed out, there are other ways to deal with traps.
Exactly what does the rogue bring to the table? Really?
I'd like to end with one of my favorite quotes regarding the rogue:
Anyway. Rogues are in kind of a weird place in Pathfinder, even moreso than in 3.5. They're not supposed to be as good at martial combat as...uh... all the other classes, so they aren't. What they get in return for this is out-of-combat problem-solving utility. Thing is, almost all (and indeed all, using non-core material) of this out-of-combat utility is redundant with other non-magical classes. That isn't even taking into account spellcasters, who by and large get more out-of-combat schticks, while having comparable or better in-combat schticks.
The rogue's schtick is skills and skills aren't very good. They certainly aren't good enough to explain why a class whose only real combat schtick is "stab a dude" is weaker at stabbing than pretty much everyone else. Skills are not only often nonfunctional (Diplomacy, original-version Stealth), they're also almost always hardcapped at what's "realistic" or "humanly possible" (Stealth again, all of the movement skills).
In return for this schtick, the rogue is worse at fighting. It's not just that the rogue is less capable and more-situational than a fighter, barbarian, or paladin: she's also weaker when it comes to wrecking some jerk than the ranger and (non-core) monk, who also rely on skill-based schticks (albeit skill-based schticks supplemented with class abilities), not to mention the alchemist, cleric, druid, and oracle. All of these classes have class abilities or spellcasting to do more than what's "humanly possible", and can still fight in addition to solving problems that don't require murder.
So yeah. I do think the rogue is a weak class. She's worse at fighting to be good at something that often isn't useful, and will often be overshadowed in her own specialty by someone else in the party.
I wish I knew how to fix it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This:
I hope so. If they're not going to fix him at least stop making him hold everyone else back.
The rogue is roughly on par with a power attacking barbarian as long as they can get their sneak attacks in.
|
Oi!
Yes, a melee rogue may do limited damage when ranged attacking a melee target in a corner... but limited damage per round beats zero damage per round every time.
Yes, CMD is 'broken' at high levels, but even so Rogues at that level can get their acrobatics checks up to equally ludicrous values any number of ways.
Whatever, some people just need to believe that rogues are rendered helpless by corners. I've always found that it instead renders the monster hiding in the corner irrelevant.
The rogue is roughly on par with a power attacking barbarian as long as they can get their sneak attacks in.
Rogue with 14 Str and 18 Dex - Finesse rapier attack +4 for 1d8 + 2 + 1d6
or
Barbarian with 18 Str - Raging falchion power attack +6 for 2d4 + 12
............
Not even at level 1...
|
|
I would like to see the rogue stepped down to an NPC class due to the fact that they pretty much just get in everyone else's way. .... Well technically it's already got the power level of an NPC class; it's just lacking the actual title.Nah, now you're just being a crybaby!
Quite the contrary, actually. I was being completely serious. I really would like to see them reduced to an NPC class.
I built a level 11 TWF rogue and a superstitious barbarian over Christmas. Their DPR was ~130 each.
|
|
Rogue with 14 Str and 18 Dex - Finesse rapier attack +4 for 1d8 + 2 + 1d6
or
Barbarian with 18 Str - Raging falchion power attack +6 for 2d4 + 12
............
Not even at level 1...
So give the Rogue the 18 Str, the falchion, and power attack.
Sure, if you build a non-combat rogue they aren't going to be good in combat. That isn't a flaw of the class though.
Oi!
Yes, a melee rogue may do limited damage when ranged attacking a melee target in a corner... but limited damage per round beats zero damage per round every time.
I was admittedly being hyperbolic. Yes some damage is better than zero. However any other class would be doing better damage.
Yes, CMD is 'broken' at high levels, but even so Rogues at that level can get their acrobatics checks up to equally ludicrous values any number of ways.
It is a waste of resources to do so since it still remains an iffy proposition and you end up in a bad place even if it does work.
Whatever, some people just need to believe that rogues are rendered helpless by corners. I've always found that it instead renders the monster hiding in the corner irrelevant.
No, I'm pretty sure people simple believes that rogues are pretty close to helpless overall, and the corner is irrelevant.
Rogue with 14 Str and 18 Dex - Finesse rapier attack +4 for 1d8 + 2 + 1d6
or
Barbarian with 18 Str - Raging falchion power attack +6 for 2d4 + 12
............
Not even at level 1...
So give the Rogue the 18 Str, the falchion, and power attack.
Sure, if you build a non-combat rogue they aren't going to be good in combat. That isn't a flaw of the class though.
But, then my acrobatics suffers and I'm useless at a choke point!
Give my expert the same stats and equipment. One time out of 10 you might have a leg up in combat with your rogue. Mostly, I doubt you'd know the difference between the two.
|
|
Uh based on my experience and most posts I've read the only way to get that Acrobatics check to guaranteed to work is using custom magic items otherwise it's 75ish% assuming you went dex took skill focus maxed the skill got a +5 competence bonus via an item and bought all the dex boosting gear available at your level. Which means 1/4 of the time you crap out and wind up taking an attack and stand right in front of the monster for next round.
Various favored class options give +1/2 per level to Acrobatics. The 'Acrobatics Master' trick from the Ninja rogue archetype adds +20 to one check per round (with a ki point). There is a +10 elixir. Et cetera.
|
4E rogues were fine.Granted I only played mine from 1-8, but I was really useless. Purportedly a striker, I did barely comparable damage to the dragonborn paladin beatstick my friend Phil played.From what I remember, they were really supposed to be more Striker-controllers. By going straight striker with them, in terms of feat and power choices they did a little more damage, but missed out on debilitating effects that they could do.
The big thing that made them strikers, however, was that they were single target focused. They might not take down their single target in one hit, but they could inflict some seriously nasty status effects fairly regularly.
Pathfinder also tried to do some of this with the rogue, with some rogue talents, but the problem is that it's usually just better to deal damage, and with 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, they fall short of other classes in combat, where the rogue hit about as often as everyone else in 4e, and the way roles tended to work, the opponent would generally try to target the Fighter first, so he could be flank-buddies with the fighter, and be in less danger.
Still, I like my houseruled Talent, which basically lets you pull off a free dirty trick combat maneuver, whenever you hit for sneak attack damage, and another one which grants Agile Maneuvers and a scaling bonus to certain Maneuvers, that gets them around Full BAB classes in terms of Maneuvers.
I don't know, can Paizo create more rogue talents for the vanilla rogue (and make them right this time)? About bombs vs sneak attacks: Rogues can trade SA for bombs too.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I built a level 11 TWF rogue and a superstitious barbarian over Christmas. Their DPR was ~130 each.
I somehow doubt their average DPR was the same. I can believe the Rogue's DAMAGE when he hit all of his attacks was the same, but DPR takes into account to-hit bonuses, which a Rogue will have AT LEAST 5 less of (BaB and TWFing penalties).
I don't know, can Paizo create more rogue talents for the vanilla rogue (and make them right this time)? About bombs vs sneak attacks: Rogues can trade SA for bombs too.
Erm, how, exactly? I've never seen an archetype with Bombs.
I didn't say it was the same. I said approximate. The rogue's was 120-something and the barbarian's was in the low 130's.
To-hits were high on both and comparable due to build. When I get home I'll see if I can track down the sheets. Granted, the barbarian had furious focus so the first hit was higher than the rogue's. But, after that, they were about even within just a couple points of each other.
@Buri: I've seen 2 DPR thread where the rogue didn't even came Close to being good.
Post both builds. It will be interesting.
|
So give the Rogue the 18 Str, the falchion, and power attack.
Sure, if you build a non-combat rogue they aren't going to be good in combat. That isn't a flaw of the class though.
Agreed with CBD. If your measuring stick is damage potential at low levels, why not build the barbarian and rogue in exactly the same manner?
Both should have the same Str, Dex, Con and use the same weapon.
Compare them over the first 3 levels.
The rogue would probably take Power Attack with his 2nd level combat trick. He might as well take Toughness at 1st to appear "barbarian-like".
Length of adventuring day (i.e. # of combats per day) skews data wildly. I believe the core assumption is like 30-40 rounds of combat a day. Obviously folks with first-hand experience that a typical day is 10 rounds of combat favor classes that can "nova".
The rogue and barbarian are not that far off.
I'm telling you all - just wait. We'll see Ultimate Scoundrel or some variant released/announced by EOY. Rogues will finally see power creep as a result, and I suspect quite a bit of it - since there's a fairly good precedent that "rogues" should be versatile enough to be able to do anything any other class in the game can.
The best DPR on rogues comes from that trick that let you do non lethat damage in exchange of doubling the sneak attack dices.
Yeah, you can build a rogue which does absolutely stupid high damage with sap adept and sap master. Of course the minute you run into undead (or anything else immune to non lethal damage), you are hosed.
I'ma have to see it before I believe it. I've run the numbers on SA before, and the damage usually comes out scarily similar to a Barbarian I can build, but the issue is always that while the damage is within a few points of each other (depending on the level), the Barbarian has a large to-hit boost over the Rogue.
The best DPR on rogues comes from that trick that let you do non lethat damage in exchange of doubling the sneak attack dices.Yeah, you can build a rogue which does absolutely stupid high damage with sap adept and sap master. Of course the minute you run into undead (or anything else immune to non lethal damage), you are hosed.
Would the deadly weapon enchant get around that?
|
|
The wording of deadly weapon seems to imply that it would not actually get around this. Besides, the rogue can simply choose to cease dealing nonlethal damage when faced with undead. .... Sure, they'll suck horribly, but it's better than zero damage. The objective behind the sap feats is that you must be dealing nonlethal damage with a bludgeoning weapon for them to function.
Would the deadly weapon enchant get around that?The best DPR on rogues comes from that trick that let you do non lethat damage in exchange of doubling the sneak attack dices.Yeah, you can build a rogue which does absolutely stupid high damage with sap adept and sap master. Of course the minute you run into undead (or anything else immune to non lethal damage), you are hosed.
Sort of. You can do lethal damage, woot! However it comes at the cost of a +1, you might have done better just to have had a backup weapon, and any bonuses that require nonlethal to be dealt are gone, including sap master and sap adept.
[Edit: Ninja'd by a guy with a glorious beard...
I didn't say it was the same. I said approximate. The rogue's was 120-something and the barbarian's was in the low 130's.
To-hits were high on both and comparable due to build. When I get home I'll see if I can track down the sheets. Granted, the barbarian had furious focus so the first hit was higher than the rogue's. But, after that, they were about even within just a couple points of each other.
I am curious how a rogue does as well as a barbarian. Because assuming both classes are just as optimized, I just don't see how a rogue does as well as a barbarian.
At lv11, a rogue does an average of 21 dmg per sneak attack. Now assuming the rogue has greater two weapon fighting, and all 4 attacks hit, you would be doing 84 damage with sneak attack alone. Where is this other 40 damage coming from? And assuming they have a 22 dex, weapon finesse, weapon focus, greater two weapon fighting, +1 weapon and flanking the rogue would have +16 to hit on their first 2 attacks, and +11 on their next 2 attacks.
Now a lv11 barbarian, assuming a 28 str (with greater rage) 2handing a +1 greatsword with power attack, furious focus and flanking they have a +23 to hit on their first attack with an average of 30 damage. And their next two attacks have +15 and +10 to hit. All this is not including any rage powers, so a barbarian will do much better than this.
Would the deadly weapon enchant get around that?
Like TOZ said, bludgeoner works around that issue (and is considered core to the build, but I forgot to include it), but the abilities which bring your damage up to the high values are all tied to non lethal damage. Hence you have a build which is prone to damage spikes. Of course you do still also have to get the sneak attack off on top of everything else, which is a fair assumption as well.
I built a level 11 TWF rogue and a superstitious barbarian over Christmas. Their DPR was ~130 each.
Assuming that the twf rogue has both a full attack and flanking.
Full attack isn't guaranteed
Flanking isn't guaranteed.
Full attack and flanking aren't even just randomly unlikely. Usually you flank someone by moving around behind them, negating the full attack.
The rogue is roughly on par with a power attacking barbarian as long as they can get their sneak attacks in.
Due to their lower attack bonus those SA's won't get in enough to compete for DPR.
I built a level 11 TWF rogue and a superstitious barbarian over Christmas. Their DPR was ~130 each.
Unless it was that sap rogue that does nonlethal damage, I don't see this happening, but you are free to post it.
edit: I can account for Furious Focus. If I am at work before you post the numbers then I will run the numbers when I get home.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The rogue is roughly on par with a power attacking barbarian as long as they can get their sneak attacks in.Due to their lower attack bonus those SA's won't get in enough to compete for DPR.
That and the barbar gets pounce.
I built a level 11 TWF rogue and a superstitious barbarian over Christmas. Their DPR was ~130 each.Assuming that the twf rogue has both a full attack and flanking.
Full attack isn't guaranteed
Flanking isn't guaranteed.
Full attack and flanking aren't even just randomly unlikely. Usually you flank someone by moving around behind them, negating the full attack.
Even if we assume full attack, for both of them, and even if we assume flanking, even only for the rogue, i still can't see how the twf rogue can get DPR comparable to the barbarian's DPR.
But still i would really like to see Buri's builds, i might be wrong and there is a rogue build that can have DPR comparable to a barbarian's.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some GMs even go so far as to say invisibility doesn't give you a bonus to checks when trying to be quiet.It doesn't. Invisibility only defeats sight based perception checks. If you make a racket, it doesn't matter how invisible you are. The DC's of sound based preception however can be higher than those based on sight. What you're walking on and distance are big determinants there.
Welcome to the world of filthy house-rules.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some GMs even go so far as to say invisibility doesn't give you a bonus to checks when trying to be quiet.It doesn't. Invisibility only defeats sight based perception checks. If you make a racket, it doesn't matter how invisible you are. The DC's of sound based preception however can be higher than those based on sight. What you're walking on and distance are big determinants there.
Oddly enough, Invisibility gives you a +20 on stealth checks, so it somehow makes you better at hiding from a blind man in a completely dark room...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oddly enough, Invisibility gives you a +20 on stealth checks, so it somehow makes you better at hiding from a blind man in a completely dark room...
I just imagine that invisibility also muffles the sound of you moving and whatnot. It's the only thing that makes sense given the mechanics.
Where is this other 40 damage coming from?
Agile short swords with a +1 or +2 enhancement. I forget which.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd go with the knowledge of your invisibility means you can focus more closely on moving carefully to prevent causing undue noise.Oddly enough, Invisibility gives you a +20 on stealth checks, so it somehow makes you better at hiding from a blind man in a completely dark room...I just imagine that invisibility also muffles the sound of you moving and whatnot. It's the only thing that makes sense given the mechanics.
Couldn't be something so mundane. Invisibility actually distorts the sound you make to be quieter.
|
|
Rogue builds, both are PFS characters who have retired. Both have proven their worth any number of times.
Agronak Vile Blade
Male Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue (Scout) 11
CN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +20
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 22 (+9 armor, +1 deflection, +1 insight)
hp 113 (1d12+11d8+46)
Fort +12, Ref +12 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee (L) +3 holy adamantine bastard sword +17/+12 (2d8+25/17-20/×2+2d6 vs. Evil) and
(L) balinda (large adamantine bastard sword) +15/+10 (2d8+22/17-20/×2) and
bite +10 (1d4+7/×2)
Special Attacks rage, scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +6d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 28, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +15; CMD 31
Feats Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Improved Critical (bastard sword), Power Attack, Raging Vitality, Surprise Follow-Through, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Traits tusked, veteran of battle
Skills Climb +24, Disable Device +21, Intimidate +16, Knowledge (local) +7, Linguistics +4, Perception +20 (+25 to locate traps), Sense Motive +6, Stealth +14, Survival +15 (+17 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +12, Use Magic Device +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc, Shoanti
SQ fast movement, orc blood, rogue talents (bleeding attack +6, combat trick, opportunist [1/round], trap spotter, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Snapleaf, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Lead Blades; Other Gear +3 Mithral Agile breastplate, +3 Holy Adamantine Bastard sword, Balinda (Large Adamantine Bastard sword), Bead of newt prevention, Belt of giant strength +6, Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of the eagle, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ring of protection +1, Swarmbane clasp, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 2629 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bead of newt prevention - 0/1
Daylight (1 minutes/day) - 0/1
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) - 0/1
Light (At will) - 0/0
Opportunist (1/round) (Ex) - 0/1
Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/6
Snapleaf - 0/1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bead of newt prevention When bearer fails save vs hostile polymorph effect it is negated & the bead destroyed.
Bleeding Attack +6 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 6 bleed damage/round.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Opportunist (1/round) (Ex) A foe who takes a melee hit from another provokes an AoO from you.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (6 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +6d6 +6d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Follow-Through When you are using Cleave, your second foe is denied its Dex bonus.
Swarmbane clasp Weapon/natural att deal full dam to swarms, and immune to the distraction ability of swarms.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a free action during the surprise round.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
The next is actually more a duelist at this point, but during his normal play in PFS, he was more of a rogue.
Atash ibn Behnam
Male Human (Keleshite) Duelist 6/Fighter (Lore Warden) 1/Monk (Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/Rogue
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +14; Senses Perception +24
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 43, touch 33, flat-footed 27 (+9 armor, +8 Dex, +1 natural, +5 deflection, +8 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 124 (7d10+9d8+33)
Fort +16, Ref +27 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +15
Defensive Abilities canny defense, evasion, parry, trap sense, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine scimitar +24/+19/+14 (1d6+16/15-20/×2+2 fire) and
+5 courageous silversheen scimitar +28/+23/+18 (1d6+20/15-20/×2+2 fire) and
gauntlet (from armor) +22/+17/+12 (1d3/×2) and
unarmed strike +22/+17/+12 (1d6/×2)
Special Attacks precise strike, riposte, sneak attack +4d6, stunning fist (5/day, DC 18)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 28, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +13; CMD 46
Feats Combat Reflexes, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Following Step, Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Mobility, Outflank, Spring Attack, Step Up, Step Up and Strike, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits flame of the dawnflower, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +27, Climb +14, Diplomacy +12, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +25, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (history) +25, Knowledge (local) +25, Knowledge (nature) +10, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +25, Linguistics +25, Perception +24 (+27 to locate traps), Perform (dance) +6, Profession (scribe) +8, Sense Motive +19, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Aboleth, Abyssal, Aklo, Azlanti, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Hallit, Ignan, Infernal, Kelish, Osiriani, Ancient, Polyglot, Shoanti, Skald, Sylvan, Terran, Thassilonian, Tien, Undercommon, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ acrobatic charge, courageous, enhanced mobility, fuse style, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, trap spotter, weapon training), stunning fist (stun), trapfinding +3, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Extend metamagic rod (lesser) (3/day), Gloves of arrow snaring (2/day), Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Runestone of power (2nd level) (1/day) (2), Snapleaf, Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear Celestial armor, +1 Adamantine Scimitar, +5 Courageous Silversheen Scimitar, Bane baldric (5 rounds/day), Bead of newt prevention, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Golembane scarab, Handy haversack (6 @ 20 lbs), Headband of vast intelligence +6 (Sense Motive, Kn, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Necklace of adaptation, Ring of freedom of movement, Ring of protection +5, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Climber's kit, Noble's outfit, Thieves' tools, masterwork, Weapon cord (10), 25932 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Absalom Townhouse (empty) (1/session) +2 to interaction skills in own district, +4 to Know (local) & gather info if active.
Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You can charge over difficult terrain.
Bead of newt prevention When bearer fails save vs hostile polymorph effect it is negated & the bead destroyed.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Canny Defense +6 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Reflexes (10 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Courageous +5 morale bonus to save vs fear, +2 added to bonuses from similar abilities.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) +4 AC vs attacks of opportunity while moving out of a threatened square.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Flame of the Dawnflower +2 damage with a scimitar on a critical hit.
Following Step You may move 10' with Step Up, and still get a 5' step on your next turn.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Gloves of arrow snaring (2/day) Once worn, these snug gloves seem to meld with the hands, becoming almost invisible to casual observation. Twice per day, the wearer can act as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat (see Chapter 5 for details), even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat. Both gloves must be worn for the magic to be effective, and at least one hand must be free to take advantage of the magic.
Construction
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Cost 2,000 gp
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Necklace of adaptation Immune to all harmful vapors and gases and can breathe anywhere.
Outflank Increase flank bonus by +2 if flanking ally has same feat. If you crit, ally gets an AoO.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Ring of freedom of movement This gold ring allows the wearer to act as if continually under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
Construction
Requirements: Forge Ring, freedom of movement; Cost 20,000 gp
Riposte (Ex) When you parry an attack, you gain an AoO vs that foe if in reach.
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Step Up and Strike When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make an attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may als
Stunning Fist (5/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
I personally know 2 more players who build and play amazing rogue builds. While I would like to see rogues given more variety without giving up the core of what I consider rogue, I do not think that they are a useless class. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding and skills are an amazing combo that you have to build carefully to obtain otherwise. And you find ways to get your sneak.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agronak is OP. Someone needs to nerf him. :)
EDIT on the doubletake - WTH? He's retired already??!
>.> Agronak v1 is retired. I made a new version that gives up some combat utility to have a familiar and some other tasty tricks. That's the version you played with. There is in game logic to all of it, I can catch you up if you want.
Agronak Gorum Sworn
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 3/Rogue (Scout) 3
CG Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +13
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 52 (3d10+3d8+15)
Fort +8, Ref +7 (+1 bonus vs. traps), Will +4; +1 bonus vs. effects targetting a Greatsword held by you
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 adamantine greatsword +12 (2d6+18/19-20/×2)
Ranged +1 adaptive darkwood composite longbow +7 (1d8+8/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +2d6, weapon training
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 13
Base Atk +5; CMB +10; CMD 24 (25 vs. disarm, 25 vs. sunder)
Feats Cleave, Eldritch Heritage, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Knowledge (local)), Surprise Follow-Through
Traits deadeye, veteran of battle
Skills Climb +11, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +12, Knowledge (local) +14, Linguistics +4, Perception +13 (+14 to locate traps, +15 to find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste), Sense Motive +2, Survival +6 (+8 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Knowledge (local), scavenger
Languages Common, Orc, Shoanti
SQ orc blood, rogue talents (trap spotter), trapfinding +1, weapon guard
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 Mithral Agile breastplate, +1 Adamantine Greatsword, +1 Adaptive Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +0), Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (empty), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 1954 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane When a spell level is increased by a metamagic feat, it gains +1 DC.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Familiar Bonus: +3 to sight-based Perception checks in bright light You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scavenger +2 Perception to find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine if food is spoiled or identify a potion by taste.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Follow-Through When you are using Cleave, your second foe is denied its Dex bonus.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Veteran of Battle +1 Initiative, draw a weapon as a free action during the surprise round.
Wayfinder (empty) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250 gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Weapon Guard +1: Greatsword (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +1: Greatsword (Ex) +1 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
I even have a third version I will never play, it gives up too much of the rogue flavor but his damage is....
Agronak, Hound of Moloch
Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Rogue (Scout, Skulking Slayer) 8
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +12
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 15, touch 8, flat-footed 15 (+7 armor)
hp 96 (1d12+8d8+44)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee +3 adamantine earth breaker +18/+13 (2d6+22/×3)
Special Attacks bold strike, rage, scout's charge, shifty, skirmisher, sneak attack +4d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 28, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 24
Feats Bludgeoner, Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Power Attack, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Surprise Follow-Through, Weapon Focus (earth breaker)
Traits auspicious tattoo (shoanti), berserker of the society
Skills Climb +19, Knowledge (nature) +12, Perception +12 (+14 to find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine whether food is spoiled, or identify a potion by taste), Stealth +8, Survival +12, Swim +19; Racial Modifiers pass for human, scavenger
Languages Common, Orc
SQ fast movement, orc blood, rogue talents (bleeding attack +4, combat trick, surprise follow-through, weapon training), underhanded maneuvers
Other Gear +1 Mithral Chainmail, +3 Adamantine Earth breaker, Belt of giant strength +2, 2810 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Berserker of the Society +3 rounds of Rage a day.
Bleeding Attack +4 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 4 bleed damage/round.
Bludgeoner Inflict nonlethal damage with bludgeoning weapons
Bold Strike (Ex) Sneak attack uses d8 when you charge with a two-handed weapon.
Cleave If you hit a foe, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus but take -2 AC.
Cleaving Finish Make additional attack if opponent is knocked out
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Pass for Human +4 (Ex) +4 to disguise checks to conceal half-orc heritage, with no penalty to appear as another race.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (9 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Sap Adept Gain bonus damage on nonlethal attacks,
Sap Master Deal twice your sneak attack damage when dealing nonlethal damage
Scavenger +2 Perception to find hidden objects (inc. secret doors and traps), determine if food is spoiled or identify a potion by taste.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Shifty +4 (Ex) +½ rogue level to Bluff checks to feint.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Surprise Follow-Through When you are using Cleave, your second foe is denied its Dex bonus.
Underhanded Maneuvers +4/+6 Perform a dirty trick or steal maneuver when you could sneak attack.
Level 9 is +18/13 2d6+22 and 4d8 (or 8d8+16 nonlethal). Don't forget your 4 bleed. (some people argue that gives you 8 bleed with Sap Master, that's arguable, expect table variation.)
You can move 40, attack with sneak, cleave with sneak, and then cleaving finish.