Which makes me extra sad. When I play a class I should want more of its class features. With a rogue I'm actually looking for the rogue talents that give me feats. I'm actually trading out my class features for feats!The rogue IS NOT strictly dominated - There technically exist (narrow and convoluted) sets of priorities where the rogue is technically the best way to get those things.I think we can safely exclude goals like "have as many rogue talents as possible" from consideration.
Sure, but the goal shouldn't be just to pick up class features with a certain name. Barbarians pick up Extra Rage Power as a feat because of what rage powers can do, not to just have as many rage powers as possible. Some people play a rogue because they want the word "rogue" at the top of their character sheet. Doesn't mean we should pretend that makes rogue a viable class.
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Some people play a rogue because they want the word "rogue" at the top of their character sheet.
THIS is the only thing no other class can do.
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Rogues obviously still serve a purpose: They give fighters and monks something to laugh about.
Monks stare eye-to-eye with rogues.
Fighters have to pretend that there are no actions outside of initiative order.
I can argue that a well built rogue is better than a fighter (as a complete character), but that means very little...
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Some people play a rogue because they want the word "rogue" at the top of their character sheet.THIS is the only thing no other class can do.
Tell that to Rogue Roguerson the vivisectionist rogue.
I'm toying with the idea of a rogue BBEG armed to the teeth in custom made major artifacts and mythic tiers
Barring the Mythic Tiers, you're looking at Captain Barnabas Harrigan, of Skulls and Shackles.
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The fact of the matter is that as long as the ninja is around, even with buffs the rogue would probably still lag quite far behind. That ninja you can pick up TWF easily on because you'll spend well over half of its career in combat invisible. They've even got a couple ways to shut down see invisibility. What possible point could remain in anyone ever making a rogue with the clear superiority of the ninja class? Especially if you use one of the handful of ways to enable them to disable magical traps.
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Poking a hole in everyone elses boat does not make the SS rogue go faster.
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Rogues obviously still serve a purpose: They give fighters and monks something to laugh about.Monks stare eye-to-eye with rogues.
Fighters have to pretend that there are no actions outside of initiative order.
I can argue that a well built rogue is better than a fighter (as a complete character), but that means very little...
Fighters have Dawnflower Dervishs, Lore Wardens and THFs.
Monks have Zen Archer, Hungry Ghost, Qigong.What does the Rogue have to offer (that isn't put to better use by a vivisectionist)?
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Rogues obviously still serve a purpose: They give fighters and monks something to laugh about.Monks stare eye-to-eye with rogues.
Fighters have to pretend that there are no actions outside of initiative order.
I can argue that a well built rogue is better than a fighter (as a complete character), but that means very little...
Fighters have Dawnflower Dervishs, Lore Wardens and THFs.
Monks have Zen Archer, Hungry Ghost, Qigong.What does the Rogue have to offer (that isn't put to better use by a vivisectionist)?
Rogues are a lot better at dying. They also make a really good foil for if the GM wants to make sure a party gets slowed down. Want to nerf your group? Talk one of your players into using a rogue.
I'm toying with the idea of a rogue BBEG armed to the teeth in custom made major artifacts and mythic tiersBarring the Mythic Tiers, you're looking at Captain Barnabas Harrigan, of Skulls and Shackles.
** spoiler omitted **
The gear rogue should at-least be able to use staves with skill mastery(UMD). He should start of the fight with greater invisibility, heroism, haste, and a few summon monsters.
Rogues obviously still serve a purpose: They give fighters and monks something to laugh about.Monks stare eye-to-eye with rogues.
Fighters have to pretend that there are no actions outside of initiative order.
I can argue that a well built rogue is better than a fighter (as a complete character), but that means very little...
Fighters have Dawnflower Dervishs, Lore Wardens and THFs.
Monks have Zen Archer, Hungry Ghost, Qigong.What does the Rogue have to offer (that isn't put to better use by a vivisectionist)?
Compared to those classes? Skill points and UMD + skill mastery.
With enough money, a rogue can be a crappy caster which puts both fighters and monks to shame.
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The gear rogue should at-least be able to use staves with skill mastery(UMD). He should start of the fight with greater invisibility, heroism, haste, and a few summon monsters.I'm toying with the idea of a rogue BBEG armed to the teeth in custom made major artifacts and mythic tiersBarring the Mythic Tiers, you're looking at Captain Barnabas Harrigan, of Skulls and Shackles.
** spoiler omitted **
You know, allowing a rogue to start off with all those things might almost make them on par with warriors and adepts! ... Almost.
You know, allowing a rogue to start off with all those things might almost make them on par with monks! ... Almost.The gear rogue should at-least be able to use staves with skill mastery(UMD). He should start of the fight with greater invisibility, heroism, haste, and a few summon monsters.I'm toying with the idea of a rogue BBEG armed to the teeth in custom made major artifacts and mythic tiersBarring the Mythic Tiers, you're looking at Captain Barnabas Harrigan, of Skulls and Shackles.
** spoiler omitted **
The rogues I build are more useful to the party in all aspects than a (non-Lormyr)monk.
Once again, that is not saying very much.
With enough money Fighters and Monks can also be crappy casters nothing stops them from taking UMD other than the fact that they'd all probably dump the Cha stat because it isn't worth putting points into.Compared to those classes? Skill points and UMD + skill mastery.
With enough money, a rogue can be a crappy caster which puts both fighters and monks to shame.
Without skill mastery they don't have constant caster level or ability score needed for staves. And their checks are not safe enough for scrolls.
*This conversation has been brought to you by the DPR Special Olympics!*
You know, allowing a rogue to start off with all those things might almost make them on par with monks! ... Almost.The gear rogue should at-least be able to use staves with skill mastery(UMD). He should start of the fight with greater invisibility, heroism, haste, and a few summon monsters.I'm toying with the idea of a rogue BBEG armed to the teeth in custom made major artifacts and mythic tiersBarring the Mythic Tiers, you're looking at Captain Barnabas Harrigan, of Skulls and Shackles.
** spoiler omitted **
The rogues I build are more useful to the party in all aspects than a (non-Lormyr)monk.
Once again, that is not saying very much.
yEAH... I remember that thread between you and Lormyr and his REDICULOUS level of monk mastery...
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In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations.
I find them to be either the most dangerous or the most useless depending on how the combat goes.
My wife's rogue was the only person able to close with the BBEG yesterday. She could not get sneak attack and bore the brunt of the enemy spells and attacks. If she hadn't rolled so many 17-20s on the dice, I don't think she would have made it.
In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations. They also get the most skill points. Never have understood the 'Rogues are so mis-treated' angst.
Someone has not met monsters near choke points, corners, or walls.
In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations. They also get the most skill points. Never have understood the 'Rogues are so mis-treated' angst.
My Alchemist disagrees with you...
Oh, and so does my bard (its funny when you get a bonus equal to ALL knowldge checks AND can roll untrained AND can use perform to cover multiple skills...
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player-entitled cis-privilege lawful stupid crane-wing rogue trapfinding monk with a paladin dip and armor spikes
I might be explaining myself badly. "Doing something" is not moving. I'll try to cover the examples.A rock on the ground can be seen (reactive perception); noticing the rock has a small carving requires more than a cursory glance (move action). A tapestry can be seen (reactive perception), but the fine gold embroidery hidden within the patterns requires more than a cursory glance (a move action). A hole in the wall can be seen (reactive perception); noticing the dart inside - and so identifying the trap, requires more than a cursory glance (a move action).
I think we're hitting a difference in dming style here. I give full details when I have them roll against something like that. Otherwise they're just going to tell me "NOW I LOOK AT IT MORE" which is silly.
"You notice a rock on the ground, upon your gaze, it appears to have a small carving on the side."
"You do a double-take at the tapestry as something shimmers in the fire light. Gold appears to have been woven into it."
"You spot a small hole in the side of the wall, at about chest level, the telltale sign of a trap."
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Right now I've got a monk in Carrion Crown that is actually the party's highest damage dealer and toughest member; this is at least worth mentioning because it's out damaging the min-maxed dervish dancing magus pretty well constantly. Their damage is roughly equal if magus happens to land a crit with shocking grasp, but otherwise the monk dominates. So you CAN make monks into absolute monsters if you play your cards right. Doing the same with a rogue just isn't happening. Yeah, you could make them comparable to the average monk, but that's like saying you dipped a cow pie in platinum.
Actually, we do have a rogue in our party as well. I will give him credit for doing the best he can with that class, as he's proven that he can be useful in combat at times. The problem is that he suddenly wounds up at 0 or lower HP every time he manages to get off a full round of sneak attacks. Outside combat, however, he has been doing exceptionally well. The character has a good perception and high disable device.
In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations.I find them to be either the most dangerous or the most useless depending on how the combat goes.
Very much the problem I had when playing a rogue.
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Fixed that for you.player-entitled cis-privilege lawful stupid crane-wing rogue trapfinding monk with a paladin dip and armor spikes
hi5
Right now I've got a monk in Carrion Crown that is actually the party's highest damage dealer and toughest member; this is at least worth mentioning because it's out damaging the min-maxed dervish dancing magus pretty well constantly. Their damage is roughly equal if magus happens to land a crit with shocking grasp, but otherwise the monk dominates. So you CAN make monks into absolute monsters if you play your cards right. Doing the same with a rogue just isn't happening. Yeah, you could make them comparable to the average monk, but that's like saying you dipped a cow pie in platinum.
Zen archer?
Without skill mastery they don't have constant caster level or ability score needed for staves. And their checks are not safe enough for scrolls.
*This conversation has been brought to you by the DPR Special Olympics!*
Skill mastery is just taking ten it's not out of the question that you can get a bonus high enough by 10th level that it won't matter. And more than that, this ignores that you're better served by just having a caster cast those spells anyways, since in just about every party I've been in you end up with at least 1 9 level caster and usually one of each Divine and Arcane.
This is just my experience but if you have a caster the value of a UMD Rogue drops in correlation and frankly why wouldn't you have a caster in this game?
By 10 a rogue can take 29 on UMD, that is a caster level of 9, but an ability score of only 14. With a +2 cha item CL goes to 10 and ability score goes to 15
At 20 with a +6 cha item (and the skill focus she had since lvl 5) CL is 22 and ability score is 27. Almost better with staves than an actual caster.
EDIT: Taking 10 on UMD is a huge advantage. Worth a +9 bonus. Which anyway a monk or fighter is getting that, so is the rogue.
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Right now I've got a monk in Carrion Crown that is actually the party's highest damage dealer and toughest member; this is at least worth mentioning because it's out damaging the min-maxed dervish dancing magus pretty well constantly. Their damage is roughly equal if magus happens to land a crit with shocking grasp, but otherwise the monk dominates. So you CAN make monks into absolute monsters if you play your cards right. Doing the same with a rogue just isn't happening. Yeah, you could make them comparable to the average monk, but that's like saying you dipped a cow pie in platinum.Zen archer?
Nope! I chose only to use the qinggong archetype. The objective here was to challenge myself by using the monk in almost default format and see if it could keep up. Well, it can freakin' keep up. Honestly the only thing I've swapped out so far has been one of their more useless class abilities in return for being able to cast barkskin on myself. Now I will admit that some of this success is due in part to having a buff bot in the party. If they sing, I can start using power attack without fear of being miss spammed; at that point the magus won't keep up even when it crit spams. But hey, party synergy is a good thing.
Which makes me extra sad. When I play a class I should want more of its class features. With a rogue I'm actually looking for the rogue talents that give me feats. I'm actually trading out my class features for feats!
Does this make fighters worse since a class feature of theirs is nothing but feats?
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Which makes me extra sad. When I play a class I should want more of its class features. With a rogue I'm actually looking for the rogue talents that give me feats. I'm actually trading out my class features for feats!Does this make fighters worse since a class feature of theirs is nothing but feats?
Yes
Meh... make a level 5 Rogue, average point buy and appropriate WBL.
I'll make a level 5 Expert with the same stats and equipment.
I doubt you'd notice the difference between them in actual gameplay.
Rogue is a dip class to get skill points or qualify for a PrC. That's pretty much it, at this point.
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In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations. They also get the most skill points. Never have understood the 'Rogues are so mis-treated' angst.Someone has not met monsters near choke points, corners, or walls.
Choke points - Go through their choke point with tumbling. That's what all those skill points are for.
Corners - If they are melee monsters laugh at them while you kill them from range. If not... leave. They can't stop you while they're hiding in the corner.
Walls - Can still be flanked. No problem.
Yes
Does this make fighters worse since a class feature of theirs is nothing but feats?
This actually made me laugh. Good to know. :)
Rogue 1/Wizard 19 is the best "rogue build" for people who like playing wizards. The idea that every option in the game has to be as good or better than arcane spellcasting is ridiculous.
Rogues =/= Wizards
You're right, of course.
Rogues<WizardsRogues~Experts
In my experience, the Rogue is the most dangerous combat class in most situations. They also get the most skill points. Never have understood the 'Rogues are so mis-treated' angst.Someone has not met monsters near choke points, corners, or walls.Choke points - Go through their choke point with tumbling. That's what all those skill points are for.
Corners - If they are melee monsters laugh at them while you kill them from range. If not... leave. They can't stop you while they're hiding in the corner.
Walls - Can still be flanked. No problem.
CMD scales horrendously, good luck with tumbling.
Corners- Your party fights without you. Nice job not exactly contributing. Then when you get high levels that ranged option doesn't exactly work well when they're slinging SLAs at you from 500 ft away.
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Fighters are absolutely devastating in combat. .. Unfortunately beyond that they're pretty much trash. Well, I suppose lore warden is one notable exception to this. Their access to an actual pool of skill points in addition to knowledge skills can make them quite useful.A shame that is the archetype with most risk of being nerfed.
... Why in the blue hell would anyone nerf lore warden? Oh right, because fighters aren't allowed to not suck outside combat.
Choke points - Go through their choke point with tumbling. That's what all those skill points are for.
You must be talking low level. Trying to tumble through the square of a high level critter is suicidal. You end up prone in front of it when you fail, and given high level beasty CMDs, you will fail.
Corners - If they are melee monsters laugh at them while you kill them from range. If not... leave. They can't stop you while they're hiding in the corner.
The rate at which a ranged rogue will be doing damage without sneaks (which won't happen in this case) is about as fast as waiting for them to die of old age.
Walls - Can still be flanked. No problem.
You can pick up Gang Up of course, but not many rogues do, and you better have a large enough party to provide the others up front so make it work.
If your rogue actually has to move into flanking position they will have moved away from their support. Given that rogues are about as soft as taffy, it is rather imprudent.
I know anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much (but then that is what you are proffering), but I can safely say I've yet to experience an occasion where a rogue had me saying 'damn, I'm glad we had the rogue here' unless it was a smart move by a player which had nothing to do with rogue abilities.
Rogue 1/Wizard 19 is the best "rogue build" for people who like playing wizards. The idea that every option in the game has to be as good or better than arcane spellcasting is ridiculous.
Rogues =/= Wizards
You're right, of course.
Rogues<Wizards
Rogues~Experts
Lol, funny thing is that an rogue/wizard/arcane trickster or Even a Alchemist/Wizard/ arcane trickster makes a better rogue than rogues....