| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Richard think you're giving way too much credit to this slumber hex + coup de grace combo.
There's plenty of creatures immune to sleep, immune to crits, or immmune to death effects. Even in your frost giant example, the giant has to fail its Will save against the hex and then subsequently fail its Fort save against the coup-de-grace. If it succeeds on its fort save (highly likely), it just takes an automatic crit, and then wakes up angry (and is immune to slumber for the rest of the day).
If you're worried about trivializing encounters, a 1st-level human barbarian optimized for dealing damage can trivialize a lot more level-appropriate encounters, over a wider variety of situations, than the one-trick-pony Slumber witch.
Some characters just have abilities that make them more valuable in some encounters than others. I'd rather have a cleric optimized around turning undead in an encounter against an undead horde, I'd rather have a dwarf ranger optimized to fight giants in a fight against giants, and yeah, I'd rather have a Slumber-hexing witch against single creatures with low Will saves, no magical defenses, and lots and lots of hit points.
It's not uniquely game-changing, it's just novel (and it's not that novel - in Moldvay Basic through AD&D Sleep didn't even allow a saving throw, affected multiple targets, and lasted longer than 1 round).
|
Diego, you are not accounting for the Heaven's Oracle revelations on your take on Color Spray. They get an ability which lowers the effective HD of the target's by their charisma modifier. Basically, add anywhere from 4 to 7 to the cap for what each level of color spray can affect. (7 is for a 20 cha Oracle using Eagle's Splendor).
I still fail to see how hexes are more problematic than spells unless the GM is hoping to run the casters dry.
1) It require to take a specific revelation )albeit a good one);
2) It don't change the ST, while the slumber hex ST increase with the witch level.
Revan: Like I said before, I concede your point, however "twice as much" isn't really winning the argument, IMO.
I'm being a bit extreme having them as 1st level characters just to illustrate the point.
Wraith:
They may well be corner cases, I'm not sure to what degree I agree with that but in any case I feel that I shouldn't be able to think of any scenario where having two much lower level characters with ability X is better than having *any* two higher level characters without it.
I think that if I can it then shows that ability X is too powerful.
Unless, of course, you can tell me that this sort of thing happens all the time and give me lots of other examples where one ability makes a huge difference to the success of an encounter.
Richard
That is the problem. You don't like that the ability gives them a shot in the dark at winning when a higher level party might not, but what really matters is who has a better shot on average of winning.
Personally I would rather be that 10th level party.
I don't like shots in the dark.
What is boils down to is that you would like the ability to have some type of HD or CR cap. <---That would remove their ability to succeed where a higher level party could not.
What you argued was that the ability was a game changer when in reality it basicially only works like you imagine in very contrived scenarios.
PS: The Slumber Hex does not make the lower level party "better". It just gives them a good chance at getting lucky. On average the higher level party still has a chance at winning or at least surviving to run away.
A 10th level party has some chance of winning, even though I put it at less than 25%. A 1st level party dies every time unless the GM feels sorry for them.
|
Richard think you're giving way too much credit to this slumber hex + coup de grace combo.
There's plenty of creatures immune to sleep, immune to crits, or immmune to death effects. Even in your frost giant example, the giant has to fail its Will save against the hex and then subsequently fail its Fort save against the coup-de-grace. If it succeeds on its fort save (highly likely), it just takes an automatic crit, and then wakes up angry (and is immune to slumber for the rest of the day).
If you're worried about trivializing encounters, a 1st-level human barbarian optimized for dealing damage can trivialize a lot more level-appropriate encounters, over a wider variety of situations, than the one-trick-pony Slumber witch.
Some characters just have abilities that make them more valuable in some encounters than others. I'd rather have a cleric optimized around turning undead in an encounter against an undead horde, I'd rather have a dwarf ranger optimized to fight giants in a fight against giants, and yeah, I'd rather have a Slumber-hexing witch against single creatures with low Will saves, no magical defenses, and lots and lots of hit points.
It's not uniquely game-changing, it's just novel (and it's not that novel - in Moldvay Basic through AD&D Sleep didn't even allow a saving throw, affected multiple targets, and lasted longer than 1 round).
I'm perfectly happy to accept that I may be over-exaggerating this. In fact, I hope I am, though I think I'm not.
The frost giant, BTW, is must unlikely to make his fort save (DC is 10 + damage dealt).
The old Sleep spell did what the new Colour Spray does, but both top out at about 4th level.
Richard
Sleep Hex is akin to the old sleep spell at low levels. They neutered sleep in the new edition. I was surprised they put sleep as a single target, scaling effect back in the game with the Witch. It is a game changer and trivializes encounters.
I'm about to play a witch. Slumber Hex is one of the first things you pick up to be effective. It's a must have ability and it is extremely powerful, unless you're playing in a campaign where everything you face is immune to sleep such as undead.
Yeah. It's too good and ruins a lot of adventures. Then again it is a staple of the fantasy genre and the witch's most powerful offensive ability. I guess low will save things shouldn't mess with witches because they will probably die.
Richard think you're giving way too much credit to this slumber hex + coup de grace combo.
There's plenty of creatures immune to sleep, immune to crits, or immmune to death effects. Even in your frost giant example, the giant has to fail its Will save against the hex and then subsequently fail its Fort save against the coup-de-grace. If it succeeds on its fort save (highly likely), it just takes an automatic crit, and then wakes up angry (and is immune to slumber for the rest of the day).
If you're worried about trivializing encounters, a 1st-level human barbarian optimized for dealing damage can trivialize a lot more level-appropriate encounters, over a wider variety of situations, than the one-trick-pony Slumber witch.
Some characters just have abilities that make them more valuable in some encounters than others. I'd rather have a cleric optimized around turning undead in an encounter against an undead horde, I'd rather have a dwarf ranger optimized to fight giants in a fight against giants, and yeah, I'd rather have a Slumber-hexing witch against single creatures with low Will saves, no magical defenses, and lots and lots of hit points.
It's not uniquely game-changing, it's just novel (and it's not that novel - in Moldvay Basic through AD&D Sleep didn't even allow a saving throw, affected multiple targets, and lasted longer than 1 round).
I'm perfectly happy to accept that I may be over-exaggerating this. In fact, I hope I am, though I think I'm not.
The frost giant, BTW, is must unlikely to make his fort save (DC is 10 + damage dealt).
The old Sleep spell did what the new Colour Spray does, but both top out at about 4th level.
Richard
You are over exaggerating because those things likely to never take place.
1. That big of a difference in CR is not likely.
2. If that meeting does take place the witch should die well before it has a chance to do anything.
There is no way the level 1 party is more likely to come out on top a higher percentage of times than a level 10 party. It is not even close.
It can't really be a game changer unless it is likely to have a real effect. You are theory-crafting and stacking the odds way too much to try to force it to happen.
Even something as simple as a dire tiger(CR 7?) kills this low level party. Even if it was 4 level 1 charcters they would die. How is it taking on frost giants and horned devils in an actual game?
|
|
That is the problem. You don't like that the ability gives them a shot in the dark at winning when a higher level party might not, but what really matters is who has a better shot on average of winning.Personally I would rather be that 10th level party.
I don't like shots in the dark.
What is boils down to is that you would like the ability to have some type of HD or CR cap. <---That would remove their ability to succeed where a higher level party could not.
What you argued was that the ability was a game changer when in reality it basicially only works like you imagine in very contrived scenarios.
PS: The Slumber Hex does not make the lower level party "better". It just gives them a good chance at getting lucky. On average the higher level party still has a chance at winning or at least surviving to run away.
A 10th level party has some chance of winning, even though I put it at less than 25%. A 1st level party dies every time unless the GM feels sorry for them.
Of course I agree that being 10th level is better than being 1st.
It's just that I think that the circumstances when 1st is almost as good are not all that contrived. I accept that you think otherwise so we'll just have to agree to differ.
I'm not trying to be critical of Pathfinder - I'm just trying to understand at bit because I write encounters and I want them to feel right. I've been thinking for some time now about using Hill Giants, as it happens, in a 5th level scenario, and I had imagined that every now and then one solitary Hill Giant would wander off to go hunting or what have you, but now I think he would take a couple of goblins or orcs with him to make sure that there's someone to wake him up just in case he gets slumbered by a witch.
(just to catch up with your last post)
This isn't about an *actual* game, this is about understanding how the world hangs together. Frost Giants slaughter 1st level NPCs all the time (poor buggers)
Richard
|
|
Don't forget SR 27.CL 10+7 Intelligence=+17 to the check, means a 50% chance for the wizard's spells to be effective even if he has nothing invested into piercing SR whatsoever. Make him an elf, a highly recommended race for wizards--+2 racial bonus brings that to +19 to the check, a 60% chance of success. Spend a feat on Spell Penetration, and we bump that up to an 70% chance to pierce the devil's spell resistance.
To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature's spell resistance.
Intelligent (or whatever casting stat you use) don't enter anywhere in that equation.
I've been thinking for some time now about using Hill Giants, as it happens, in a 5th level scenario, and I had imagined that every now and then one solitary Hill Giant would wander off to go hunting or what have you, but now I think he would take a couple of goblins or orcs with him to make sure that there's someone to wake him up just in case he gets slumbered by a witch.
Richard
Actually, I think that would have been a good idea anyway.
Against any group of enemies, the way action economy works out tends to make singletons a bit easier than they look (although I'll grant that really big singletons should have felt somewhat "world-immune") - a few mooks along to get the action economy back towards parity vs a group has *always* been a (mechanically) good idea.
|
|
Actually, I think that would have been a good idea anyway.
Against any group of enemies, the way action economy works out tends to make singletons a bit easier than they look (although I'll grant that really big singletons should have felt somewhat "world-immune") - a few mooks along to get the action economy back towards parity vs a group has *always* been a (mechanically) good idea.
I find it a bit anti-thematic, to be honest with you.
I prefer the idea of lone giants wandering the wilderness (there's one in the Kingmaker AP, for example) rather than having them trail a mook-entourage around just in case there's some poxy 1st level witch and her brother hiding in the bushes.
Richard
That is the problem. You don't like that the ability gives them a shot in the dark at winning when a higher level party might not, but what really matters is who has a better shot on average of winning.Personally I would rather be that 10th level party.
I don't like shots in the dark.
What is boils down to is that you would like the ability to have some type of HD or CR cap. <---That would remove their ability to succeed where a higher level party could not.
What you argued was that the ability was a game changer when in reality it basicially only works like you imagine in very contrived scenarios.
PS: The Slumber Hex does not make the lower level party "better". It just gives them a good chance at getting lucky. On average the higher level party still has a chance at winning or at least surviving to run away.
A 10th level party has some chance of winning, even though I put it at less than 25%. A 1st level party dies every time unless the GM feels sorry for them.
Of course I agree that being 10th level is better than being 1st.
It's just that I think that the circumstances when 1st is almost as good are not all that contrived. I accept that you think otherwise so we'll just have to agree to differ.
I'm not trying to be critical of Pathfinder - I'm just trying to understand at bit because I write encounters and I want them to feel right. I've been thinking for some time now about using Hill Giants, as it happens, in a 5th level scenario, and I had imagined that every now and then one solitary Hill Giant would wander off to go hunting or what have you, but now I think he would take a couple of goblins or orcs with him to make sure that there's someone to wake him up just in case he gets slumbered by a witch.
(just to catch up with your last post)
This isn't about an *actual* game, this is about understanding how the world hangs together. Frost Giants slaughter 1st level NPCs all the time (poor buggers)
Richard
If you want to come at from a world view instead of a PC view then the NPC's die just like the PC's would unless the GM uses his narrative power to say otherwise. In that case the GM finds another way to make it happen instead of using slumber so slumber is still a non factor
The Dire Tiger also kills 1st level parties. Tigers in real life are smart enough to attack from the rear, and it is an ambush predator. With the stealth check it should get a surprise round, and it should do decently well on initiative. It now has two meals. Those other 2 NPC's are going to run away until GM narrative power steps in and says otherwise. At least one if not two NPC's just became dinner.
Actually, I think that would have been a good idea anyway.
Against any group of enemies, the way action economy works out tends to make singletons a bit easier than they look (although I'll grant that really big singletons should have felt somewhat "world-immune") - a few mooks along to get the action economy back towards parity vs a group has *always* been a (mechanically) good idea.
I find it a bit anti-thematic, to be honest with you.
I prefer the idea of lone giants wandering the wilderness (there's one in the Kingmaker AP, for example) rather than having them trail a mook-entourage around just in case there's some poxy 1st level witch and her brother hiding in the bushes.
Richard
Not saying I disagree, just making the point that lone brutes already are deeply on the downside of the mechanics.
|
|
Maybe so, and I know that there is a limit to the degree of realism we can portray within the game.
However I do feel that it is incumbent on me to write adventures which don't require the GM to use his narrative power to paper over the cracks in the logic.
It irritates me as a GM too, because my players inevitably point out things which don't make sense when running other people's stuff, things which I wont have spotted myself when I was preparing the session, and I don't like it any more than they do, especially when I get caught out in this way.
Of course there will always be players who, when confronted by a colossal dragon in a dungeon, will just kill it and take the treasure, whilst others will start wondering how on earth it got in there given that all the entrances are only 10' wide.
And then there'll be some GMs who'll just wave their hands around and say "magic or something" and others, like me, who will find this sort of illogicality irritating.
And this has nothing to do with game system, BTW. Pathfinder belongs equally to both sorts of gamers.
So I'm just trying to get my head around whether the Slumber Hex really has changed what a reasonable perception of the game world is.
I'm still not sure - I'm just reading all the arguments with interest.
Richard
P.S. There is still the separate issue of whether the Slumber Hex has spoiled playability. I think it has, others do too, others don't.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you as the GM want to write the stories without narrative power so mechanics matter then that 1st level witch is still going to die fast against such monsters. I understand he theoretically has the potential to win if he has a fighter with him, but if you use mechanics and use the monster's normal mental stats or natural abilities that witch and fighter still die.
I have an issue with a first level paladin's smite bypassing epic DR of some demon lord so I kinda see your point. However, I also know that paladin won't be facing any demon lords so I won't to worry about explaining how some noob even managed to draw blood from such a creature, which is a feat(not game term) in and of itself.
If you tell me you wrote a story where a 1st level witch and the fighter did not die to a dire tiger I am going to ask how. I will fully expect that the dire tiger was set up to fail before you even start talking though.
I think your players, who sound like an old group I used to run for, will find a problem with the witch coming out on top.
PS: The game's mechanics are not made to support a narrative story, and in this case you actually still need GM narrative to make the 1st level victory look even remotely plausible so it is still not a big deal.
edit:
my old group: Why didn't X,Y, or Z happen?
me: Why do they notice so much? <smiling on the outside, while trying to make up excuses because of things I did not notice.>
|
|
Funnily enough when we were play-testing Journey to Cathreay (which you can get over here now http://paizo.com/products/btpy93jm?Journey-to-Cathreay , excuse the plug), one of the players used a Slumber-Hexing witch and I found it rather amusing after worrying about it at first that in 6 weeks of playing he only got it to work once!
Until then I hadn't actually thought about Slumber Hex at all. My players, though, tend to be quite up on power plays of these sort - I had to contend with a Gunsligner in Panataxia - but since I always try to conceive scenarios which allow for a great variety of different types of encounters it didn't really matter in the end.
Like I said, I'm still not sure how much I need to think about it going forwards. It might be courteous with future modules to put in a a little Slumber-Hex section in the GM notes advising where an encounter might be vulnerable to this particular tactic. I always try to be as GM friendly as possible.
Richard
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd take the level 10 party any day. The slumber hex + cdg combo relies a lot on luck, while a level 10 party has a far better chance of surviving on skill and preparation. The level 10 party would understand the chances of running into that demon, and would have the resources to be ready for it; even if they didn't win initiative, they would still have a decent chance of survival. The level 1 party would praying to win initiative or they would be dead immediately.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As a GM I really dislike the slumber hex. I regret allowing in the party and will never allow it again. It has changed my game and the party around the witch. It has changed the tactics I need to use to make a fight more interesting. It has even been used in none combat situations. Put the guy to sleep and we will ransack the store looking for what we need...screw talking to them. It turned my party into a bunch of stone cold killers.....Coup de Gracing everything they can.
The witch tweaked out the save so it is over 20 (he is 4th level now) and it is his primary focus.
As a GM I started pairing things up, so they could wake each other. I also started looking for a way to protect against it...but I have yet to find one sine the FAQ states that Protection from Evil does not prevent sleep effects.
The only good thing about it is it has pushed the alignment argument as the party as "murderer" just about everything.
So never again in my groups
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It has even been used in non combat situations. Put the guy to sleep and we will ransack the store looking for what we need...screw talking to them. It turned my party into a bunch of stone cold killers.....Coup de Gracing everything they can.
I didn't even think about the Rogue/Witch combo. That might be a pretty fun way to play the witch, but maybe with less murdering and more good natured shenanigans and thievery :)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, I think that would have been a good idea anyway.
Against any group of enemies, the way action economy works out tends to make singletons a bit easier than they look (although I'll grant that really big singletons should have felt somewhat "world-immune") - a few mooks along to get the action economy back towards parity vs a group has *always* been a (mechanically) good idea.
I find it a bit anti-thematic, to be honest with you.
I prefer the idea of lone giants wandering the wilderness (there's one in the Kingmaker AP, for example) rather than having them trail a mook-entourage around just in case there's some poxy 1st level witch and her brother hiding in the bushes.
Richard
1) Witches are not necessarily common enough that the giants would *have* to accoun for them 100% of the time
2) You've finally picked a giant for your example who does have a decent change of failing a Will save against a 1st level Slumber Hex. It's also 2 CRs lower than the first one you picked, so the goalposts have moved back a bit.3) Once again, success assumes the witch can get within 30 ft., and the fighter directly next to the Giant--who can smash them without breaking a sweat.
4) If you're really concerned about protecting against this corner case while keeping a 'lone wanderer', it's entirely thematic for giants to have pets with them--Dire Wolves for hunting dogs, a pet Dire Bear (highly common for Stone Giants in Golarion lore), a herd of Aurochs... They may not have the intellect to wake their Master up, but they'd certainly interfere with attempts to take advantage of his slumber.
We have a witch in our Way of the Wicked game, and our GM asked him to stop using the hex so often due to the issues raised above. It's too easy for it to become an I-win button, especially in high-point buy games where DCs can be 2 or even 3 higher than what the game assumes for that level, even with no other optimization.
The problem then is that the player saves it for the boss battles, which means the battles meant to be climatic are a snore :)
|
|
I'd take the level 10 party any day. The slumber hex + cdg combo relies a lot on luck, while a level 10 party has a far better chance of surviving on skill and preparation. The level 10 party would understand the chances of running into that demon, and would have the resources to be ready for it; even if they didn't win initiative, they would still have a decent chance of survival. The level 1 party would praying to win initiative or they would be dead immediately.
A CR 16 encounter would be epic for 4 x 13th level characters. It should wipe the floor with 2 x 10th, even with bad tactics.
In the scenario I gave, incidentally, initiative wasn't an issue.
Richard
Yeah slumber is OK I guess but it is rather a gamble to use it on a lone frost giant at 1st Level isn't it? If it passes it's save...bye bye party.
If you think realism and want a bit of logic then there is you're answer.
Would a young witch and her bodyguard really want to risk their lives in the hope that statisically the spell would function and the giant would fall asleep?
Frost Giant, 2 hits both are more than likely to hit, one hit would kill the 1st level fighter even without rolling damage...speed is 40ft, reach 10ft, witch needs to be in 30ft range to use hex, if the witch even runs next round the giant has her too.
As always its best to pick fights you know you have at least some chance of surviving if it all goes to hell, sure the Hex could work, but what if it dos'nt that's what you need to think about.
So no not a game or world changer, if all 1st level witches used it all the time on giants etc sooner or later they are going to come a cropper and die.
Why would a 1st level anything be up against a Frost Giant?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And here I am to do the math, once again.
Initiative: I'll assume the witch has an initiative of +2 and the frost giant has an iniative of -1. The witch would roll 12.5 on average, so the frost giant would have to roll a 13 or higher. The frost giant has a 13/20 chance of losing initiative, or 65%.
It doesn't really matter if the fighter/rogue beats the giant's initiative, so I'll skip that part.
Slumber hex: I'll assume a DC of 14 here, against a +6 on will saves from the frost giant. To fail this save the giant has to roll a 7 or lower, or 35%.
Coup de Grace: The frost giant has a fortitude save of +14, so if you can do a minimum of 23 damage, you'd have a 95% chance of killing the giant. (For a DC of 33, as the frost giant will always save on a natural 20 anyway.) So far, you'd have a chance of 0.65x0.35x0.95=0.216125 or, less than 22%. That's nowhere near 50/50. A fighter could easily do a minimum of 23 damage with an earthbreaker, power attack and a strength of 16. (6d6+18= minimum of 24 damage.)
Now you might say that the witch could have a +5 in intelligence or a +3 in dexterity. In that case it would be 0.7x0.4x0.95=0.266 or 26.6% it still won't be a 50/50 shot. I have to say, this is still very impressive. It would work even better on lower level enemies. There are still some problems, like:
- Doesn't work on dragons.
- Doesn't work on elves.
- Doesn't work on groups.
- Doesn't work on undead.
- Is less efficient on enemies with high fortitude saves, high will saves and/or high initiatives.
|
|
The more "murderhobo" the group is the worse it gets.
Friendly outcast Hill Giant who has an adventure hook for the party... BAM slumber hex "Yeah, lets kill it for instant level-up"
It's actually much worse in encounters that aren't meant to be combat because the NPCs involved don't tend to be built to make the will saves that the PCs can force on them. Games where PvP isn't outlawed are also going to see significant shifts as well.
It isn't just the fact that it has made a ton of older adventures unplayable without complete revision because of encounters that were never balanced for this kind of power, or that it is forcing me to use way more of "encounter type X" because I want the party to have an actual challenge. The slumber hex has more potential for shaping the game than any other 1st level ability.
For my home game, I'm probably going to disallow it in the future, but I will give things a few more levels to see how it pans out. I'm pretty sure that it just gets more powerful, as the gulf between DC and weak will save increases, and the loss of action economy for the enemies of the party really starts to break any encounter where the party isn't just facing a bunch of mooks whose advantage is action economy (full round lost by the slumber affected creature + move action to get up + action by friend waking him up)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a GM I really dislike the slumber hex. I regret allowing in the party and will never allow it again. It has changed my game and the party around the witch. It has changed the tactics I need to use to make a fight more interesting. It has even been used in none combat situations. Put the guy to sleep and we will ransack the store looking for what we need...screw talking to them. It turned my party into a bunch of stone cold killers.....Coup de Gracing everything they can.
The witch tweaked out the save so it is over 20 (he is 4th level now) and it is his primary focus.
As a GM I started pairing things up, so they could wake each other. I also started looking for a way to protect against it...but I have yet to find one sine the FAQ states that Protection from Evil does not prevent sleep effects.
The only good thing about it is it has pushed the alignment argument as the party as "murderer" just about everything.
So never again in my groups
Sounds like a difference in expectations issue rather than an issue with a single mechanic. You would probably have the same problem if the player had chosen one of the many other potentially broken mechanics already in the system. Countering this one is still a challenge because it's relatively new, so the community hasn't fully figured out it's limits, but things like not enforcing consequences for what is basically robbery in plain sight are an oversight on your part, not the player's.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The more "murderhobo" the group is the worse it gets.
Friendly outcast Hill Giant who has an adventure hook for the party... BAM slumber hex "Yeah, lets kill it for instant level-up"
It's actually much worse in encounters that aren't meant to be combat because the NPCs involved don't tend to be built to make the will saves that the PCs can force on them. Games where PvP isn't outlawed are also going to see significant shifts as well.
It isn't just the fact that it has made a ton of older adventures unplayable without complete revision because of encounters that were never balanced for this kind of power, or that it is forcing me to use way more of "encounter type X" because I want the party to have an actual challenge. The slumber hex has more potential for shaping the game than any other 1st level ability.
For my home game, I'm probably going to disallow it in the future, but I will give things a few more levels to see how it pans out. I'm pretty sure that it just gets more powerful, as the gulf between DC and weak will save increases, and the loss of action economy for the enemies of the party really starts to break any encounter where the party isn't just facing a bunch of mooks whose advantage is action economy (full round lost by the slumber affected creature + move action to get up + action by friend waking him up)
That's a play style issue, not an issue with the power itself. Obviously if you run an adventure written with certain assumptions, and try to shoe horn it into a completely different set of assumptions, there is going to be problems. Likewise, if the party wants to be the kill everything on sight type of party, and you don't adjust NPC reactions accordingly, that's a problem between you and the players, not you and the slumber hex. Some DMs like running that type of group; others hate them with a passion; the chosen tactics don't usually matter as much as the overall effect. I think a bigger problem is that many DMs are used to not having to worry about low level adventures the same way they do high level adventures, so they don't think to employ many of the tools already available to them when planning or running 1st level adventures. Having an additional potent low level power changes how adventures need to be written and approached. That does not mean that the base world is necessarily changed, just that how the PCs interact with that world has changed. The slumber hex is notable in that regard, but far from unique or special, save the level that it really comes into play; nothing else is all that different from anything else already in the players' arsenal.
A 1st level goblin barbarian with the Endurance feat maxes out Stealth. He waits until the frost giant goes to sleep. Then, he performs a CDG. Actually much more effective and plausible than any of the described scenarios involving a witch.
If you want to become a serial killer of monsters,
1) It's not that hard
2) I cut my teeth on a playstyle where that was considered normal. Big deal, you do it one time, now you're a higher level party and it's no longer "unbalanced."
|
|
That's a play style issue, not an issue with the power itself.
Oh, it's definitely a playstyle issue. I want to play in games where the characters don't have a ridiculously good chance of taking down things they shouldn't be messing with. Where killing something with a CR of 5 above your party level is am amazing accomplishment, not just... "yeah well we had a "X" type character so it was pretty easy"
This goes for the home games I run and the games I play in. With PFS being a bit of an exception. I'm not advocating that this is what everyone should do, but I do think that certain abilities do kind of alter the game in a way that makes it... boreing. We remove those abilities and continue to enjoy the game.
I prefer to eliminate a single ability choice from players rather than eliminating tons of classic encounters.
What's so classic about an encounter that can be ended with a sleep spell or hold person?
I think the details about 1st level characters vs one frost giant are obscuring the big picture.
Slumber hex allows a player (and coup de grace helpers) to insta-win encounters above the "Epic" APL+4 level with good odds and ABSOLUTELY NO USE OF RESOURCES.
What are the odds for the frost giant against a fourth level party with TWO witches? You could probably even throw in a second giant, and the party STILL has a good chance of winning. They shouldn't even have a chance of beating one, but they might be able to kill both, without using any resources.
My stealth-optimized goblin barbarian can do that, too. If he's really efficient, he might even be able to take out multiple frost giants, which Witch & Friend can't actually do.
What's so classic about an encounter that can be ended with a sleep spell or hold person?Try either of those options next time you fight a giant and tell me how well they work
... really well? In the case of hold person, I mean.
I think the details about 1st level characters vs one frost giant are obscuring the big picture.
Slumber hex allows a player (and coup de grace helpers) to insta-win encounters above the "Epic" APL+4 level with good odds and ABSOLUTELY NO USE OF RESOURCES.
What are the odds for the frost giant against a fourth level party with TWO witches? You could probably even throw in a second giant, and the party STILL has a good chance of winning. They shouldn't even have a chance of beating one, but they might be able to kill both, without using any resources.
Good odds???? How the hell is it good odds???
|
|
Hmm, It does seem that these days the giant could be caught by Hold Person.
However, now we are talking about a 2nd/3rd level spell compared to an ability that a first level character gets. In addition to that the subject gets a new save every round so if the coup de grace doesn't come right away then it is going to have a chance to recover on it's turn. On top of that this uses up a spell slot that the character using it has a limited supply of, slumber can (and often is) used on every possible target except those who have been killed before the witch can get around to them
Hmm, It does seem that these days the giant could be caught by Hold Person.
However, now we are talking about a 2nd/3rd level spell compared to an ability that a first level character gets. In addition to that the subject gets a new save every round so if the coup de grace doesn't come right away then it is going to have a chance to recover on it's turn. On top of that this uses up a spell slot that the character using it has a limited supply of, slumber can (and often is) used on every possible target except those who have been killed before the witch can get around to them
except when they pass their save...
It's true, at low levels, slumber hex is a pretty good mop-up spell against low Will opponents. I'd be nervous in a pitched fight on relying on anything with a 30 foot range.
What's so classic about an encounter that can be ended with a sleep spell or hold person?Sleep spell get obsolete pretty quick, and hold person allow a saving trowh every turn, not to mention that more thing are inmune to hold person than to slepp hex (I think)
I think just about everything immune to hold person is also immune to sleep. So, with elves, I think more things are actually immune to sleep.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
True enough. But the sleep spells works on imps, and you can cast it several times. Hold person, and hold monster, can be cast repeatedly.
Really, this thread should be retitled, "I found ability that targets Will."
|
|
A 1st level goblin barbarian with the Endurance feat maxes out Stealth. He waits until the frost giant goes to sleep. Then, he performs a CDG. Actually much more effective and plausible than any of the described scenarios involving a witch.
If you want to become a serial killer of monsters,
1) It's not that hard
2) I cut my teeth on a playstyle where that was considered normal. Big deal, you do it one time, now you're a higher level party and it's no longer "unbalanced."
You can't go to sleep by yourself in the wilderness, no matter who you are. A pack of wolves could sneak up on you.
The giant would have to find a cave with a big boulder that you can block it with. Or climb a tree (or glacier), or meet up with his mates, or go home!
Richard
|
|
You cannot add Persistent to slumber hex, you can to colour spray forcing enemies to make 2 saves and take the lowest. This significantly increases the chance of success especially against enemies with poor will saves.1) It require to take a specific revelation (albeit a good one);
2) It don't change the ST, while the slumber hex ST increase with the witch level.
1 feat and +2 spell levels or a metamagic rod
You can Heighten colour spray if you want to up the DC and further reduce the chance to resist.
1 feat and +X spell levels
You can add Widen to colour spray making it a 30' cone which covers a large area and turning it into a massive close range group control spell. Slumber gets 2 targets maximum per action and that only with a feat?
1 feat and +3 spell levels or a metamagic rod
So, if you throw more resources at it, color spray become more powerful. Good.
On the other hand the slumber hex power increase bi itself every 2 levels as its DC increase. Essentially it benefit from the highten metamagic feat for free.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok? If slumber is "oh dear god broken" then I can only imagine what you would think of my Enchantment Focused mage. I could push out Dominate, CHarm, and hold spells with DCs that put Slumber to shame. And the best part is? Dominate, charm, and hold all last longer and much more versatile. Oh! And with a few metamagics, the only things I could affect would be constructs (who are generally immune to magic), which is more than what can be said with the slumber hex. Oh and my heavy Enchantment focus also gave me even better DC for spells like Unadultered Loathing. If you can cast dominate on something with strong will and have a decent chance of success, then you can easily cast it on something upwards of +8 levels with poor will and probably still win...