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We as players, DMs, and module writers tend to think of casters as an indispensable part of the fantasy economy, when in reality, for pretty much every world I've seen other Eberron, with Golarion and even FR being part of the former group, there is nothing that makes magic that critical to the common person. They could just as easily hire a retired level 15 fighter to train the villagers how to fight and/or an engineer to help them make basic, but still useful, fortifications. This would have the same basic effect as the giant fearing a witch putting them to sleep, and be possible at more or less the same cost. Magic is still a powerful tool, but it's not the only tool available.
I think you underestimate just how useful magic is in the daily life of a village in fantasyland. Prestidigitation, ant haul, mount, and unseen servant are huge labor savers. Healing magic makes life-threatening injuries and illnesses much less life-threatening. Create water gives the village an unlimited source of fresh water. Purify food and drink has obvious use. Endure elements lessens the effects of harsh weather. This is all just cantrips or 1st level spells. A village where everyone is descended from Nabraxis the green wyrm (and hence half the village are sorcerers) is better off than the village without ready access to magic. And this is without looking at using magic to defend the village.
The village of Nabraxis (it's named after the dragon) can still use the mundane techniques available to other villages. They can still build fortifications and train in weapons (sorcerers are proficient in all simple weapons). But they can augment their mundane defenses with magic.
The slumber hex is powerful and would make a difference in how villages defend themselves. It's no more world-changing, however, than other low-level magic. A few dozen sorcerers spamming charm person at the frost giant will have much the same effect as witches spamming slumber. Mass application of magic missile and acid splash will go a long ways towards defending the village.
Anyway, if you're a small village paying for a coven of witches to defend you, you really ought go the extra mile and attract a hag. Then the witches can join in the hag's coven. When the frost giant attacks, forcecage, baleful polymorph, and charm monster all become potent options. After the giant's dead, the coven can use animate dead to create a guardian for the village. When the coven isn't protecting you from frost giants, control weather can be used to maximize crop yields. Commune has obvious use. Dream allows limited long-distance communication. Speak with dead has obvious use.
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The slumber hex is powerful and would make a difference in how villages defend themselves. It's no more world-changing, however, than other low-level magic. A few dozen sorcerers spamming charm person at the frost giant will have much the same effect as witches spamming slumber. Mass application of magic missile and acid splash will go a long ways towards defending the village.
That to me is the key. It's powerful, but not notably unique enough even amongst magic options to make it's impact that unique. The villagers aren't likely to seek out witches specifically unless the giant problem is truly that big, at which point, they are just as likely to seek out adventurers to deal with the giants directly. The villagers don't have to kill the giant, and may have many reasons for not wanting to actually kill the giant; they just have to be able to do enough damage or slow the giant down enough that the giant simply writes them off as the giant's version of a hornet's nest and wanders off somewhere else. If the first solution they come upon is the slumber hex, great; if it isn't, and the first solution keeps the giants at bay enough, then they probably aren't going to actively keep looking for a witch.
I think that it just seems uniquely powerful right now because it's still comparatively new, and therefore something that DMs are only just now starting to really adjust to in terms of world building. There will be some adjustments, but in the end I don't see very many worlds changing all that drastically because of it. Too many other options, both magical and non-magical are already available that accomplish the villagers primary goal of keeping the giants away. It's going to be a larger issue in designing campaigns, I think, than in designing worlds once the dust fully settles, and more people simply automatically account for it just like they do all other magic options.
The village of Nabraxis (it's named after the dragon) can still use the mundane techniques available to other villages.
Can they? A village full of sorcerers sounds one bad storm away from starvation to me. A typical low-level sorcerer has spells, but lacks skills and physical prowess. I'm not really sure I want to see the Str 8 Con 10 sorcerers out there working a 12 hour day lifting hundredweight stooks of wheat before the wind ruins the crop.
It's easy to say that being a sorcerer makes you more powerful -- and, yes, spells are very useful. But you shouldn't forget that you lose things, too.
Wraithstrike: It's about risk and reward. If there were four of you, 3 Witches plus one Fighter, you've probably got a 80%+ chance of success. If you win, you get 6400 xp (80% of the way to level 2) and over 1000gp each.
Ok, that sounds a bit metagamey, but life, real and role-play, is all about risk vs reward, and in my opinion it's the risk/reward balance that's wrong.
Fraust: In my world it would depend what the prevalent danger was. Villages in areas that tended to be attacked by giants or any other big nasties that can be slumbered would have a much greater proportion of witches than places where, say, the greater danger can from diseases, undead or voracious plant-life.
Richard
Yeah, but if you suddenly run into some undead then you are in trouble since witches dont do to well against them, so building an anti-giant party is a bad move. On top of that GM's like myself will swap out a feat to give them Iron Will and maybe even improved iron will.
If you min max a party expect to deal with the same issues that min maxed PC's deal with.
For the purpose of this comment mix max=really good at dealing with one thing, but not so great at anything else. That risk reward is not worth it to me.
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Richard...in regards to your response to Wraithstrike, would you actually award full experience for the 3w1f party? I wouldn't myself. There is danger there, though not very much, so it wouldn't be the same as say...a pit with a zombie in it where the zombie has no chance of getting to you, so you shoot it with disrupt undead until it dies...
As to your response to me...that's a perfectly valid point, though I have to wonder how common villagers are aware of the specifics of a class ability, coupled with what they have to offer to attract a greater amount of witches over time, as well as how long they've been having issues with giants to see how much progress they can make on their plan to bring more witches to the area. Then you have to counter that against the likelyhood that other threats might be showing up that the witch can't handle, and if those are more likely or less likely than the giant threat.
Honesty if I still used XP I would give them the full XP, but I would not want to hear them complaining about the lack of an ability to handle other encounter types.
w.r.t. Giants attack from range: The Witch / Fighter combo simply hide somewhere and wait for the giants to get into range.
Your well-educated frost giant will know well enough not to attack the village.
As has been said, this combo is effective against most of the things that a village is likely to encounter in the wilderness. If I was setting up my village or town, I would try to get one 1st or 2nd level witch with every guard patrol - i.e. at the cost of an extra 1st or 2nd level fighter. I would probably have some sort of healing machine back at base but I'm not sure I'd worry about anything else.
The concept that we have about witches being outcast is, as pointed out again above, inappropriate in the Pathfinder setting.
To answer sunshadow21: fully agree, of course, but the presence or absence of a witch in the village doesn't affect all the other factors with regards to solving a Frost Giant marauder situation. Sure we'll try diplomacy, but if that doesn't work having a few witches back home lurking in the attics and under the hay wagons is going to make any potential slumberable will-less marauders think two or three times before coming.
Take the witches away, and any giant worth it's salt will fancy its chances with a village that's unlikely to have anyone above 2nd level.
Which is my point - and that's really as a module writer. Witches change the way you think about the world. I accept the point about variability in encounter, but I very much try to write material which makes sense from a fantasy world perspective, and the Slumber Hex is changing things in ways that nothing else that I can think of does.
As a player / GM I also have to concur with "GM Lamplighter" that this hex is detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game. It means that every qualifying encounter now has a chance of "not happening", IYSWIM, in a not particularly interesting way. Either you meet the giant, cast the hex, giant sleeps, coup-de-gras, next; or you meet the giant, hex fails and an interesting...
Their stealth checks are not likely to make it versus those giants. The giants can also bombard the village with rocks or send in groups of giants at once.
Either way the village is destroyed, and if you send in multiple giants no level 1 fighter is risking his neck to off one giant which takes a full round action because he will be smashed by giant #2 before he gets the chance.
Considering that the Giant, if it fails it save is going to asleep for 1 round, unless the fighter is adjacent to it or within 5', a coup de gras isn't possible, and the now angry giant is going to stand up and kill the two of them.Cackle. Readied action.
BTW, dreamspeaker Elf Witch with 20 Int and Ability Focus and the Mediator social trait has a save dC of 10+0(½ level)+5(int)+2(feat)+1(trait) +1(racial)=19, at level 1.
Effect: A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.I don't see how Cackling will help with a Slumber Hex, plus at first level a witch has only one hex.
There is feat that allows you to get an extra hex, BUT I do think it is a stretch to assume that every witch has this feat so you do have a point. :)
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There is feat that allows you to get an extra hex, BUT I do think it is a stretch to assume that every witch has this feat so you do have a point. :)
Heck, I was thinking that it was a stretch to assume that "witch" = "slumber hex."
Your average village witch would get much more use out of the cauldron hex, healing hex or ward hex than the slumber hex over the course of a typical year.
Every village needs healing. Every village needs protection. Every village likes having potions and alchemical items around. How many villages actually see ravening single-monster attacks?
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Can they? A village full of sorcerers sounds one bad storm away from starvation to me. A typical low-level sorcerer has spells, but lacks skills and physical prowess. I'm not really sure I want to see the Str 8 Con 10 sorcerers out there working a 12 hour day lifting hundredweight stooks of wheat before the wind ruins the crop.
It's easy to say that being a sorcerer makes you more powerful -- and, yes, spells are very useful. But you shouldn't forget that you lose things, too.
1st level commoners have nothing that 1st level sorcerers don't have. A sorcerer farmer can have high Str and Con (where "high" here means ≥10, because NPC stat array) as much as a commoner farmer.
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A Solitary Frost Giant just attacking a random village is very odd. I can see a solitary frost giant wandering in the frozen north/icy cold place of your setting but coming all the way to the country side to assault a village alone...why?
Witches in general don't tend to be very friendly in whatever village they are from and are most likely learning their trade from Hags nearby if not BFF with them, they even tend to be chased away and live in lone cabin far from the village. Like someone mentioned npc witch in a village are most likely the kind who are eating children or healing people with strange elixirs.
There is feat that allows you to get an extra hex, BUT I do think it is a stretch to assume that every witch has this feat so you do have a point. :)Heck, I was thinking that it was a stretch to assume that "witch" = "slumber hex."
Your average village witch would get much more use out of the cauldron hex, healing hex or ward hex than the slumber hex over the course of a typical year.
Every village needs healing. Every village needs protection. Every village likes having potions and alchemical items around. How many villages actually see ravening single-monster attacks?
I agree with this too, and to the OP---> Are you going to put your money on a 1st level witch and fighter or a Frost Giant ran by a competent GM? O.o
I really don't seem winning this fight more than 10% of the time.
The fighter has to get inside the giant's reach and NOT die before slumber is even used barring a specific feat to make sure the same witch also has cackle at first level. If you keep stacking the odds in favor of ____ then ____ will eventually come out on top, but that(extra hex) combo is not often suggested. Things like combat casting and improved initiative are often suggested to casters.
In a real game the combatants are not likely to start off in hex range, and if there are rocks they the two man party likely dies before the giant even notices the witch is a witch. One rock a piece and its done.
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1st level commoners have nothing that 1st level sorcerers don't have. A sorcerer farmer can have high Str and Con (where "high" here means ≥10, because NPC stat array) as much as a commoner farmer.I just checked the CRB's steps for making NPCs. Following those guidelines, the sorcerer farmer actually has better Str and Con than the commoner farmer:
If the NPC possesses levels in a PC class, it is considered a heroic NPC and receives better ability scores.
The sorcerer farmer (let's assume human) can have, say, S 14, D 10, C 15, I 12, W 8, C 15 whereas the commoner farmer has, say, S 13, D 10, C 14, I 11, W 9, C 8.
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Just going to point out that, at least in my group, the Frost Giant wins every time.
If a CR9 encounter is thrown and a level 1 party, then its probably plot advancing in my typical group, and so if I throw something that could make the story incredibly anticlimactic, or something that could stop the story from advancing and keep us from learning important information, then the GMs will happily fudge the saving throw to keep the plot going, and I will be glad that they did. I'd probably only even throw out the slumber hex at such a ridiculously higher CR encounter to keep from metagaming. Of course, this is just in my games, and holds no proof on NPC witches stopping frost giants, or on other games.
An NPC witch will only have up to a DC17 save maximimum, if they put the highest stat into Intelligence, take a trait to buff the spell DC, are an Elf with Dreamspeaker, and have the monster only Ability Focus that many GMs don't allow PCs to take or don't allow to apply to abilities only granted via classes. Its more likely to have a DC 13 on an NPC because the Alternate Racial Trait, trait, and feat are all not very likely on an NPC IMO.
1st level commoners have nothing that 1st level sorcerers don't have. A sorcerer farmer can have high Str and Con (where "high" here means ≥10, because NPC stat array) as much as a commoner farmer.I just checked the CRB's steps for making NPCs. Following those guidelines, the sorcerer farmer actually has better Str and Con than the commoner farmer:If the NPC possesses levels in a PC class, it is considered a heroic NPC and receives better ability scores.The sorcerer farmer (let's assume human) can have, say, S 14, D 10, C 15, I 12, W 8, C 15 whereas the commoner farmer has, say, S 13, D 10, C 14, I 11, W 9, C 8.
In my world, you would be reversing cause and effect. People don't have good stats because they have PC class levels, they have PC levels because they're special and rare. Most of the people in the village of sorcerers would not be special and rare, and so you'd have a lot of rather incompetent sorcerers wandering around.
Alternatively, not everyone descended from dragons has the capacity to be a sorcerer. But in any case, I still suggest that a village where half the population has heroic stats but does NOT take sorcerer levels would be better off than a village of half sorcerer.
Just going to point out that, at least in my group, the Frost Giant wins every time.
If a CR9 encounter is thrown and a level 1 party, then its probably plot advancing in my typical group, and so if I throw something that could make the story incredibly anticlimactic, or something that could stop the story from advancing and keep us from learning important information, then the GMs will happily fudge the saving throw to keep the plot going, and I will be glad that they did. I'd probably only even throw out the slumber hex at such a ridiculously higher CR encounter to keep from metagaming. Of course, this is just in my games, and holds no proof on NPC witches stopping frost giants, or on other games.
An NPC witch will only have up to a DC17 save maximimum, if they put the highest stat into Intelligence, take a trait to buff the spell DC, are an Elf with Dreamspeaker, and have the monster only Ability Focus that many GMs don't allow PCs to take or don't allow to apply to abilities only granted via classes. Its more likely to have a DC 13 on an NPC because the Alternate Racial Trait, trait, and feat are all not very likely on an NPC IMO.
This brings up another point. The OP's example does not change anything because most GM's don't use CR 9 encounters against level 1 parties so it is a nonfactor in actual play.
But in any case, I still suggest that a village where half the population has heroic stats but does NOT take sorcerer levels would be better off than a village of half sorcerer.
Cool story, but commoner still doesn't give anything that sorcerers don't have. The remaining options are
The point is, nothing obligates sorcerers to dump Str and Con. Someone spending their whole life in a rural farming community is probably going to have decent scores in both of those, regardless of whether they manifest magic. It only takes 11 Cha to be able to cast 1st level sorcerer spells.
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The Fortress of the Stone Giants begins with a Stone Giant assault on Sandpoint.
This was written before Witches and Slumber Hexes existed in the game.
In the world then, using NPC-thinking, it made perfect sense for the giants to do this.
Now, I'm not so sure. Using the same NPC-thinking, the giants would have to consider that there may be a coupled of hidden witches in Sandpoint, and that the slumber-hex + CDG combination could be pretty deadly to them.
Richard
P.S. Could I please refer people talking about the unsuitability of CR 9 vs level 1 encounter to the post I made near the bottom of the previous page (problem A and problem B).
The Fortress of the Stone Giants begins with a Stone Giant assault on Sandpoint.
This was written before Witches and Slumber Hexes existed in the game.
In the world then, using NPC-thinking, it made perfect sense for the giants to do this.
Now, I'm not so sure. Using the same NPC-thinking, the giants would have to consider that there may be a coupled of hidden witches in Sandpoint, and that the slumber-hex + CDG combination could be pretty deadly to them.
Richard
P.S. Could I please refer people talking about the unsuitability of CR 9 vs level 1 encounter to the post I made near the bottom of the previous page (problem A and problem B).
In any event the combo still looks like a fail as written in the opening post from the PC point of view and world simulation view. The giants are still likely to win, killing the few PC-classed NPC's.
Short version: Witches would likely be accounted for in tactics, and I would expect for giants(some of them) to have different base feats in such a world if not magic items.
As for the CR9 issue I don't care about anecdotal evidence with poor tactics or bad luck. That goes into the "corner case" category for me.
When it can be presented as "likely" then it is a problem.
Otherwise it is only a problem in "your(general statement)" game, and not for the game as a whole.
It was just like another thread where an archer paladin owned a dragon and then the GM complained about smite, when the dragon could mud stomped the paladin in round 1 had it not landed on the ground far from the paladin and opened itself up to a full round of arrows. If you don't play a CR X as a CR X then it is effectively CR X-Y.
Maybe a different example is needed to prove the point trying to be made.
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The Fortress of the Stone Giants begins with a Stone Giant assault on Sandpoint.
This was written before Witches and Slumber Hexes existed in the game.
In the world then, using NPC-thinking, it made perfect sense for the giants to do this.
Now, I'm not so sure. Using the same NPC-thinking, the giants would have to consider that there may be a coupled of hidden witches in Sandpoint, and that the slumber-hex + CDG combination could be pretty deadly to them.
Richard
P.S. Could I please refer people talking about the unsuitability of CR 9 vs level 1 encounter to the post I made near the bottom of the previous page (problem A and problem B).
It might change their tactics and expectations a bit, but an organized assault would not be hindered by the presence of witches. The threat might prevent the random attack from a lone giant, but not always. As someone said before, it just means they have different feats and/or magic gear than they would have before the presence of the slumber hex. It's an interesting tactic, but not an instant win. Warriors could still be lost that have to be replaced, something tough to do in the middle of giant country. The giants could simply learn to throw rocks at anything that moves before approaching the village. Other giants may decide to band together if it happens enough times and put together that organized assault that would require completely different defensive tactics on the part of the villagers. If they kill enough giants, other folks move in that can counter that tactic more effectively. It adds a new wrinkle, as does any new option, but it doesn't completely change the picture as a whole. It still comes down to how much does the DM really want the world to change because of it; it's just as easy to come up with reasons why it doesn't change the world all that much as it is to come up with reasons why it does.
Two first level characters = APL 1/3
1 Frost giant = CR 9
Apparently because the giant who is 10 CR's above the party has ~50/50 odds of survival, nothing is unbalanced, and everyone should stop whining.
That changes the way I look at the game!
I think campaign world design always includes a very heavy dose of story-trumping-"reality". You never know which old dirty peon is actually a polymorphed gold dragon or demon lord. I think a GM can always come up with reasons why some group of monsters can exist even though logic would indicate otherwise.
But any ability that allows a group to essentially insta-win encounters they shouldn't even have a chance of surviving without said ability is... broken. It isn't the only broken thing in the game, but it is probably the most obvious example.
I guess it just boils down to how much you enjoy "rocket launcher tag"... One person's bug is another person's feature.
Two first level characters = APL 1/3
1 Frost giant = CR 9Apparently because the giant who is 10 CR's above the party has ~50/50 odds of survival, nothing is unbalanced, and everyone should stop whining.
He's got considerably better than 50/50 odds of survival. I was incorrect in my coup de grace calculations, but a 1st level witch can only give a Frost Giant 50% odds of falling asleep if she takes the Ability Focus feat, which may not be allowed for PCs. At 20 Intelligence, a 1st level slumber Hex is DC 15, a 55% success rate for the giant. The witch only gets one chance, succeed or fail. She has to be within 30 ft. to try when the giant could annihilate her from 4 times that distance with a thrown rock. And since it's only out for one round, it has to be standing next to a fighter for a coup de grace to happen. And if the giant has a friend, or a pet, or any kind of ally whatsoever, that pretty much spoils the tactic, too.
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Apparently because the giant who is 10 CR's above the party has ~50/50 odds of survival, nothing is unbalanced, and everyone should stop whining.
Actually, that's better than 75% survival, and that's assuming you freely position the non-witch ally next to the giant without them being dead. Witch still has to win initiative, giant has to fail save, CDG must be performed within one round (drawing an AoO).
Oh, my goodness, two 1st level barbarians with falchions can kill a 10th level NPC sorcerer traveling alone from within 40 feet if they win initiative. I'm not sure if the falchion has been appropriately accounted for in world-building, how are there any sorcerers left in the world?
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I still stand by my original statement... a group of giants attacking the average village = village death if the giants use any sort of tactics.
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No more so than the wizard or sorcerer with colour spray.
Just ran a pfs scenario with a slumber witch. Pretty boring. The GM was really hating the slumber hex at the end. Only time we had a challenging encounter was when it was undead.
The witch handily wins the sorcerer color spray battle in a typical scenario by being able to spam the hex every encounter on every enemy and at a not too difficult range.
No more so than the wizard or sorcerer with colour spray.Just ran a pfs scenario with a slumber witch. Pretty boring. The GM was really hating the slumber hex at the end. Only time we had a challenging encounter was when it was undead.
The witch handily wins the sorcerer color spray battle in a typical scenario by being able to spam the hex every encounter on every enemy and at a not too difficult range.
then the GM should have been SMART and send creatures with a decent will save. Funny thing about hexes, since they are Su and not Spells, unless your GM permits you to take Ability focus, its significantly harder to increase teh DC of the hex. Any person who plays blasters or SoS spellcasters here knows that a DC= base DC of highest current spell level is WAY to low to be consistent (hence why you will see people running around wth Spell Perfection+Spell Focus+Greater Spell Focus+ other random splat stuff). Te only reason the Sleep hex is powerful is because the Witch ALSO has the Evil Eye Hex, the Misfortune Hex, Ill Omen Spell, AND the Cackle Hex. With a quickened Ill Omen that is still 3 turns in which the witch wil be standing still to put something to sleep...
Even if your GM allows Ability Focus, all that effectively does is make your hex scale better for about four more levels.
Two first level characters = APL 1/3
1 Frost giant = CR 9Apparently because the giant who is 10 CR's above the party has ~50/50 odds of survival, nothing is unbalanced, and everyone should stop whining.
That changes the way I look at the game!
I think campaign world design always includes a very heavy dose of story-trumping-"reality". You never know which old dirty peon is actually a polymorphed gold dragon or demon lord. I think a GM can always come up with reasons why some group of monsters can exist even though logic would indicate otherwise.
But any ability that allows a group to essentially insta-win encounters they shouldn't even have a chance of surviving without said ability is... broken. It isn't the only broken thing in the game, but it is probably the most obvious example.
I guess it just boils down to how much you enjoy "rocket launcher tag"... One person's bug is another person's feature.
50/50?
Those are not accurate odds. More like 90/10 if not higher, in favor of the giant.
No more so than the wizard or sorcerer with colour spray.Just ran a pfs scenario with a slumber witch. Pretty boring. The GM was really hating the slumber hex at the end. Only time we had a challenging encounter was when it was undead.
The witch handily wins the sorcerer color spray battle in a typical scenario by being able to spam the hex every encounter on every enemy and at a not too difficult range.
PFS handicaps GM. Single monster encounters are not in the monster's favor at close range and that is fine. The witch should shine some, but there is NO reason for every fight to be that convenient, and a GM does not even have to break any rules at home to make a fight challenging.
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dont thorw everything with a sucky will save... its not that hard... if yoru having a hard time with the Slumber hex I can't see how you would deal with things like Color Spray from a Heaven's Oracle...
Easily:
2 HD or less: The creature is unconscious, blinded, and stunned for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, and then stunned for 1 round. (Only living creatures are knocked unconscious.)
3 or 4 HD: The creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round.
5 or more HD: The creature is stunned for 1 round.
Stunned 1 round is a world of difference from sleeping for 1 round. Especially as it is 1/round/level of the witch. 2nd level and you can set up your coup de grace + a few attacks against a prone giant with leisure.
I don't know if its uniquely game changing, but it takes the rocket tag from level 11 or so and brings it into the start of the game.Yo and yo.
both very limited in the number of HD they affect. And the 1 round casting time of sleep make it a very bad idea against something that can kill you with a hit.
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Let me try a second example - just as a thought experiment, not something that you are likely to encounter as a PC group.
You and your friend have found yourself in hostile territory: another plane, in fact - should have turned left at that last junction :-)
In the distance, a Horned Devil (CR 16) spots you and you spot it. It wins initiative, teleports to with 10' of you and draws its spiked chain, grinning evilly.
I give you a choice - you can either pick two 1st level characters where one has use of Slumber Hex, or two 10th level characters (equipped according to their level) where neither have.
It's not looking good either way, of course, but which do you think gives you the greatest chance of killing the devil?
(I'm deliberately taking out the running away option, BTW)
I know this is an artificial example, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.
As far as I can see, one witch + one paladin has a much better chance of killing it off (in one round, in fact) than any pair of 10th level characters without the Slumber Hex.
But .... maybe I'm wrong.
And if I'm right, can anyone think of *any* example, not involving Slumber Hex, where having two 1st level characters is better than having two 10th, just on the basis of one ability?
Cheers
Richard
Horned Devil needs a 4 to fail a save against the most optimized 1st level Slumber Hex. 80% chance of success on its part. That's a 20% chance of killing it in one round, if it comes within 30 ft. instead of throwing lightning or fireballs, and doesn't get the chance to attack first.
A 10th level wizard is probably rocking a 24 intelligence (and that's if he didn't start with a 20, in which case he may well be up to 26), and at least one Spell Focus Feat, if not Greater Spell Focus as well, meaning he's throwing out DCs of 18-20 plus spell level. That puts a DC of 23-25 on 5th level spell Hold Monster, which has 50-60% odds of paralyzing the devil--rendering it vulnerable to a coup de grace. A 10th level cleric could do the same thing with an even better chance of success using the 6th level Constricting Coils spell.
Don't forget SR 27.
CL 10+7 Intelligence=+17 to the check, means a 50% chance for the wizard's spells to be effective even if he has nothing invested into piercing SR whatsoever. Make him an elf, a highly recommended race for wizards--+2 racial bonus brings that to +19 to the check, a 60% chance of success. Spend a feat on Spell Penetration, and we bump that up to an 70% chance to pierce the devil's spell resistance.
Why would the Giant wake up after 1 round?
Considering that the Giant, if it fails it save is going to asleep for 1 round, unless the fighter is adjacent to it or within 5', a coup de gras isn't possible, and the now angry giant is going to stand up and kill the two of them.
Because Slumber only works for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level.
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Let me try a second example - just as a thought experiment, not something that you are likely to encounter as a PC group.
You and your friend have found yourself in hostile territory: another plane, in fact - should have turned left at that last junction :-)
In the distance, a Horned Devil (CR 16) spots you and you spot it. It wins initiative, teleports to with 10' of you and draws its spiked chain, grinning evilly.
I give you a choice - you can either pick two 1st level characters where one has use of Slumber Hex, or two 10th level characters (equipped according to their level) where neither have.
It's not looking good either way, of course, but which do you think gives you the greatest chance of killing the devil?
(I'm deliberately taking out the running away option, BTW)
I know this is an artificial example, but I'm trying to illustrate a point.
As far as I can see, one witch + one paladin has a much better chance of killing it off (in one round, in fact) than any pair of 10th level characters without the Slumber Hex.
But .... maybe I'm wrong.
And if I'm right, can anyone think of *any* example, not involving Slumber Hex, where having two 1st level characters is better than having two 10th, just on the basis of one ability?
Cheers
Richard
Why is the devil going to teleport within 10 feet of two characters? That is just bad tactics.
It should use persistent image to make them split up or use spells to attack from range. A fireball nukes the level 1 characters, while the 10th level characters survive.
When these monsters stop using bad tactics, which tilt the odds in favor of a miracle then maybe you can make a point. Otherwise the focus will be on bad tactics.
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The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't be possible for me to think of *any* scenario, regardless of tactics, where two 1st level characters with one ability can trump two 10th level characters without it.
At least, I can come up with examples using Slumber Hex, but not anything else.
I mean, there could be all sorts of reasons why the Horned Devil chooses to teleport in. Maybe he wants to see the terror in their faces when they die.
The Frost Giant could come across the characters in an icy cave somewhere. Suddenly it walks in and you're 10' away.
I recall in Savage Tide when a T-Rex emerged from the jungle on to the beach. Similar situation - suddenly a big-hitter appears within reach of the party.
Richard
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Revan:
I'm not sure how your 10th level cleric gets a 6th level spell, but just looking at the maths otherwise maybe you're right and the 10th level party had a 30-40% chance of doing something that the 1st level party only has a 20% chance of doing.
I'll concede the point that the 10th level party is twice as good as the 1st.
Doesn't that still feel out of balance to you?
Richard
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Ahrrhrm...horned devils have regeneration vs good aligned attacks. Making it literally impossible for an appropriately-equipped 1st level party to even kill the thing.
Good point - I forgot about the regeneration. I thought the paladin's Smite Evil would bypass the DR and allow coup-de-gras but you're right, it would need that attack to be good aligned.
Richard
P.S. I suppose I could give the Paladin Oil of Bless Weapon? It's within his price range, I think, but then he would have to be slightly pre-warned of the encounter.
The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't be possible for me to think of *any* scenario, regardless of tactics, where two 1st level characters with one ability can trump two 10th level characters without it.
At least, I can come up with examples using Slumber Hex, but not anything else.
I mean, there could be all sorts of reasons why the Horned Devil chooses to teleport in. Maybe he wants to see the terror in their faces when they die.
The Frost Giant could come across the characters in an icy cave somewhere. Suddenly it walks in and you're 10' away.
I recall in Savage Tide when a T-Rex emerged from the jungle on to the beach. Similar situation - suddenly a big-hitter appears within reach of the party.
Richard
Except they don't trump 10th level characters. 10th level casters without the Slumber Hex have around twice as much chance at killing the devil as a 1st level witch with the Slumber Hex, if not more.
The point I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't be possible for me to think of *any* scenario, regardless of tactics, where two 1st level characters with one ability can trump two 10th level characters without it.
At least, I can come up with examples using Slumber Hex, but not anything else.
I mean, there could be all sorts of reasons why the Horned Devil chooses to teleport in. Maybe he wants to see the terror in their faces when they die.
The Frost Giant could come across the characters in an icy cave somewhere. Suddenly it walks in and you're 10' away.
I recall in Savage Tide when a T-Rex emerged from the jungle on to the beach. Similar situation - suddenly a big-hitter appears within reach of the party.
Richard
If you have to go through a lot of trouble to stack the deck in favor of the slumber hex then it is not that game changing. It has already been stated that it causes problems with single creature encounters, but those were already in trouble due to action economy and SoL or SoD's anyway. Sleep just added to the problems with single monster encounters, but it is not game changing in any way that really matters because level 1 characters are not really going to win these fights you are presenting other than by luck or very poor GM decisions, IF they were to ever take place anyway.
If you are where a horned devil is then it is more likely to assume are not some low level adventurer and take you seriously.
A frost giant has a pretty good perception check. It will not suddenly be within 10 feet. They are fairly intelligent. It will open at distance, determine the threat and use its size to its advantage. Result= dead lower level party.
That T-Rex is likely charging from outside of 30 feet. Same result. Neither 1st level character is surviving that bite. At best you can hope for a nat 1 on the attack, and then maybe you can put it to sleep.
All I am really seeing are corner cases.
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Revan: Like I said before, I concede your point, however "twice as much" isn't really winning the argument, IMO.
I'm being a bit extreme having them as 1st level characters just to illustrate the point.
Wraith:
They may well be corner cases, I'm not sure to what degree I agree with that but in any case I feel that I shouldn't be able to think of any scenario where having two much lower level characters with ability X is better than having *any* two higher level characters without it.
I think that if I can it then shows that ability X is too powerful.
Unless, of course, you can tell me that this sort of thing happens all the time and give me lots of other examples where one ability makes a huge difference to the success of an encounter.
Richard
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Apparently because the giant who is 10 CR's above the party has ~50/50 odds of survival, nothing is unbalanced, and everyone should stop whining.
Actually, that's better than 75% survival, and that's assuming you freely position the non-witch ally next to the giant without them being dead. Witch still has to win initiative, giant has to fail save, CDG must be performed within one round (drawing an AoO).
Oh, my goodness, two 1st level barbarians with falchions can kill a 10th level NPC sorcerer traveling alone from within 40 feet if they win initiative. I'm not sure if the falchion has been appropriately accounted for in world-building, how are there any sorcerers left in the world?
You wont draw an AoO from a sleeping giant, and if the encounter distance worries you make her a second level witch.
As for the comment about barbarians and sorcerers - what's changed? Casters have always known that they shouldn't wander around without protection. They don't - and that has always been part of the fantasy world.
Giants, however, do - or, rather, did. Maybe they shouldn't any more. What I'm trying to get to here is whether the Slumber Hex has *changed* things.
I keep trying to think of other examples where this could come be significant:
Battlefields where in the general melee there are huge nasty creatures like trolls and giants among the orcs and goblins. Having a few witches on your side is going to make it much easier to bring the big things down.
Should a fighter consider taking a level (or 2 maybe) in Witch just for the slumber hex? Armor doesn't interfere with Hexes.
What about having a Witch cohort?
Richard