Protection from evil is whack for sure, but it's at least a defensive ability. You're not ending any fights with protection from evil. And again, at least you're burning some kind of resource (spell slots) to use it. I'd say protection from evil is far more situational as well, on the whole.
Ok, so how about protection from evil?
But it can totally block 9th level spells, right? So, 1st level spell that is still indispensable to high level parties. But you're right, it's a defense.
What about magic missile?
Slumber remains relevant at all levels too.
Now, about magic missile... First, magic missile is a bad balance comparison against anything, since the designers have explicitly stated that magic missile is severely unbalanced but they left it as is due to simple nostalgia. It's a sacred cow. That said, on the whole I'll still take slumber.
1. Again, it's still causing damage vs. causing death/major suck. In general, depriving enemies of actions is always better than damaging them, until you start talking about a seriously high amount of damage. Slumber, at its very least powerful, takes away a full round of actions, and then probably another move action to stand up. (I will grant, however, that slumber is more situational than the always useful fallback that is magic missile)
2. Again, magic missile at least burns resources in the form of spell slots, whereas slumber uses up nothing.
3. Magic missile, for all its virtues, is still not (or almost never) ending fights on round one.
Magic missile is probably the best argument proposed yet, and it's still a close call at best. That does not bode well for the "slumber is fine" camp, considering that, as I said, magic missile has been explicitly acknowledged as being significantly overpowered. They went so far as to state, in fact, that MM might even still be overpowered as a 2nd level spell.
For a moment I was going to entertain the notion of fueling the great "Erick Wilson Slumber Hex Showdown" but I'm not sure we even have similar ideas of what the goal posts are for notions of disruption.
I've just been around here for too long. Wizards are too powerful. Synthesist Summoners? Too powerful...Eidolons in general, my god.
I feel you man. I hate wizards with a passion. And believe me, I've been around the block too. But that doesn't mean I'm ready to throw up my hands and give up on the notion of balance forever. Keep fighting the good fight!
Druids? Best class, apparently. Have you seen the DPR Olympics recently? Uhmmm I would find any of that kind of shenanigans more disruptive than a slumber hex personally... [etc]
I was going to take on your issues one by one but I just don't have the energy right now. All I will say is this: other things being broken too does not make slumber okay. Some of your examples (like synthesist) have already been banned, at least in organized play. As for the others...yes, wizards need to be fixed. Yes, gunslingers need to be fixed. Yes, a lot of other things need to be fixed. But those things are difficult and involved. This one is easy. Let's at least start with slumber.
And by the way, yes slumber takes actions, a standard action. That's no more actions than any of the other tactics being proposed, and less than some. So at best that's a wash. If anything, action economy is exactly what makes slumber so dangerous. In most encounters, it is the party that is outnumbering the enemy, not the other way around. That action economy gives the players a tremendous advantage in the first place. When you add something in to tip that scale even a little, it's major. And slumber tips it a lot.
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I feel you man. I hate wizards with a passion. And believe me, I've been around the block too. But that doesn't mean I'm ready to throw up my hands and give up on the notion of balance forever. Keep fighting the good fight!
I'll drop the socks for a second because I really mean this, I just tend to obfuscate my "rant" posts from my normal day to day PBP interactions that make up most of my main's posting history.
I am honestly at the point where I look at things and I think that balance cannot be achieved by any universal notion. In my experience (and the reason I even throw my hat in the ring during this sort of conversation) there is always something about one person's notion of fair and balanced that does not meet the notion of another. It seems to me, at best, you can find parity of interest and belief in a group and even then balance...I wouldn't claim so. There are always better rules players, better "role" players, luckier "roll" payers. The whole point is to play something -dynamic- otherwise....video games?
That's not to say that design and equity are not mechanics worth striving for but in my experience if there is a problem with slumber hexes, magic missiles or any of the things I mentioned before it probably stems much more to root issues like player/GM expectations and whether that parity of interests meet rather than a single game mechanic.
My one caveat is a forced setting like PFS or cons, but it seems like boots on the ground (so far) say there isn't a great slumber hex witch revolt...but there was on synthesists and vivisectionists so maybe the ban hammer on witches are next.
It may be the graet YMMV cop-out but I haven't seen it disrupt the game I'm in with a sleep witch...and the fighter could coup de grace for some serious damage (and so could the synthesist while he was still around) and I just haven't run into this sort of trouble except on the very fringes of even observing gaming...or on the boards so I just always get surprised when something like this generates such a large amount of "absoluteness" about the level of issue that it causes.
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I was going to take on your issues one by one but I just don't have the energy right now. All I will say is this: other things being broken too does not make slumber okay. Some of your examples (like synthesist) have already been banned, at least in organized play. As for the others...yes, wizards need to be fixed. Yes, gunslingers need to be fixed. Yes, a lot of other things need to be fixed. But those things are difficult and involved. This one is easy. Let's at least start with slumber.
Honestly I would neither expect nor desire you to do so. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time and I certainly believe you that in your experience or perception this is a big problem.
And by the way, yes slumber takes actions, a standard action. That's no more actions than any of the other tactics being proposed, and less than some. So at best that's a wash. If anything, action economy is exactly what makes slumber so dangerous. In most encounters, it is the party that is outnumbering the enemy, not the other way around. That action economy gives the players a tremendous advantage in the first place. When you add something in to tip that scale even a little, it's major. And slumber tips it a lot.
Really? Often the players are outnumbering? I guess I never really thought about it but that hasn't been consistent for me playing or running. I would honestly say mixed to even split not that I can honestly remember every encounter I've ever been involved in. But that doesn't feel like my experience. *shrug*
And I guess what it comes down to, for me, is: So? Its a good option. A GREAT option. Apparently the BEST option a player can take. What does that DO to the game? You can answer that or not, I mean it semi-rhetorically, I mean I will honestly read and respect your thinking on it but for me I just don't see its impact so distinctly. (Except like I said before organized play but again...balance to something meant to be dynamic seems...sticky. I was a competitive card player for a good while so I get the importance of balance in that environment...but that isn't what I have ever expected from tabletop RPGs because it never seemed there. But I am mostly a D&D kid from the begginning...take that as you will.)
It may be the graet YMMV cop-out but I haven't seen it disrupt the game I'm in with a sleep witch...and the fighter could coup de grace for some serious...
But a lot of people have seen it disrupt play in a big way. I'm one of those people. It frequently sucks big to play a fighter in a party with a slumber witch. Frankly, after around 9th level it often sucks big to play anything other than a wizard/witch/summoner in a party that contains any of those things. But slumber just brings that unfortunate crappiness on quicker, and that's no good.
The only reason it has disrupted play less than the synthesist is that, for whatever reason, fewer people play witches than summoners. That's probably because on the whole summoners are probably more powerful than witches. But we're not discussing the class, we're discussing this one class feature, which is whack and needs to go just on principle, regardless of how much it actually is or isn't being abused.
If something's unbalanced, they ought to ban it the second they notice that. Why wait for more people to abuse it? Why even discuss it? Just get rid of it. Why is this notion even controversial? The entire community should be standing together whenever we see something OP, and demanding that it go away. OP=it should go away. Simplest equation there can be. Only in an insane world like this one should such issues provoke discussion at all.
Really? Often the players are outnumbering? I guess I never really thought about it but that hasn't been consistent for me playing or running. I would honestly say mixed to even split not that I can honestly remember every encounter I've ever been involved in. But that doesn't feel like my experience. *shrug*
This is sort of a resolved issue. That is, it is a known issue that PCs typically outnumber enemies in encounters, and obviously in BBEG fights. A great deal of energy was spent addressing this issue in the design of 4th edition.
I'm not trying to take anything away from your experience except to say that your experience is not the norm. Just look through the mods and count the encounters where the party is likely to be outnumbering the enemies vs. the encounters where the opposite is true. I'd say you'll find it's at least 75% or 80% party outnumbers enemies.
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It may be the graet YMMV cop-out but I haven't seen it disrupt the game I'm in with a sleep witch...and the fighter could coup de grace for some serious...
But a lot of people have seen it disrupt play in a big way. I'm one of those people. It frequently sucks big to play a fighter in a party with a slumber witch. Frankly, after around 9th level it often sucks big to play anything other than a wizard/witch/summoner in a party that contains any of those things. But slumber just brings that unfortunate crappiness on quicker, and that's no good.
The only reason it has disrupted play less than the synthesist is that, for whatever reason, fewer people play witches than summoners. That's probably because on the whole summoners are probably more powerful than witches. But we're not discussing the class, we're discussing this one class feature, which is whack and needs to go just on principle, regardless of how much it actually is or isn't being abused.
If something's unbalanced, they ought to ban it the second they notice that. Why wait for more people to abuse it? Why even discuss it? Just get rid of it. Why is this notion even controversial? The entire community should be standing together whenever we see something OP, and demanding that it go away. OP=it should go away. Simplest equation there can be. Only in an insane world like this one should such issues provoke discussion at all.
In PFS? If it is so disruptive ban away I guess but my point was more about that it seems like so many people see "things" that "disrupt" and that are claimed to be OP I wonder what is left if we were to all unify out of "balance".
And since I don't play organized, maybe I don't get it. Obviously there are people like the fellow who posted earlier that basically inferred "I put things to sleep, don't like, tough s!*~." I haven't ever played with people like that...well not "never" but rarely and not for long. I've seen them. They exist and if you can't avoid them and a third party (first party? whatever party) ban to the play environment is how to fix that problem, I guess that makes sense.
But this sort of thing provokes discussion because this wasn't brought up in the PFS forum, it was brought up in the general discussion forum, and some folks responded in the negative. Their experiences indicated it wasn't an issue for their games or playthoughs.
Discussion isn't insane. Conformity without examination or understanding is insane. Like I said I can see where this causes issues in specific cases and certain peoples experiences. Just like the fellow who was worried the desert game he was about to be run was going to be railroaded by the 1st level cleric with an orison.
Some people exploit. Pathfinder is not built "well" enough to get around that...but I've yet to see a system that is...that isn't a computer game with persistent updates I guess.
Edit: I edited a thing or two, expanding etc.
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Really? Often the players are outnumbering? I guess I never really thought about it but that hasn't been consistent for me playing or running. I would honestly say mixed to even split not that I can honestly remember every encounter I've ever been involved in. But that doesn't feel like my experience. *shrug*
This is sort of a resolved issue. That is, it is a known issue that PCs typically outnumber enemies in encounters, and obviously in BBEG fights. A great deal of energy was spent addressing this issue in the design of 4th edition.
I'm not trying to take anything away from your experience except to say that your experience is not the norm. Just look through the mods and count the encounters where the party is likely to be outnumbering the enemies vs. the encounters where the opposite is true. I'd say you'll find it's at least 75% or 80% party outnumbers enemies.
Well and to be fair I am thinking across systems, settings and editions so who knows what sort of mish mash my gut is going with. I suppose when I think of my time with the APs that seems right.
And since I don't play organized, maybe I don't get it. Obviously there are people like the fellow who posted earlier that basically inferred "I put things to sleep, don't like, tough s$*$." I haven't ever played with people like that. I've seen them. They exist and if you can't avoid them...
Heh. As it so happens, I play with that guy...
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Heh. As it so happens, I play with that guy...
And since I don't play organized, maybe I don't get it. Obviously there are people like the fellow who posted earlier that basically inferred "I put things to sleep, don't like, tough s$*$." I haven't ever played with people like that. I've seen them. They exist and if you can't avoid them...
Heh, that's really funny actually.
Well and to be fair I am thinking across systems, settings and editions so who knows what sort of mish mash my gut is going with. I suppose when I think of my time with the APs that seems right.
Oh, ok. Sure, play was very different in the different editions, etc. I was just talking about the very encounter based play that is typical of 3.5/Pathfinder.
"Discussion isn't insane. Conformity without examination or understanding is insane. Like I said I can see where this causes issues in specific cases and certain peoples experiences. Just like the fellow who was worried the desert game he was about to be run was going to be railroaded by the 1st level cleric with an orison."
You're right. I just get frustrated sometimes. Mea culpa. But slumber is still wack :p
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"Discussion isn't insane. Conformity without examination or understanding is insane. Like I said I can see where this causes issues in specific cases and certain peoples experiences. Just like the fellow who was worried the desert game he was about to be run was going to be railroaded by the 1st level cleric with an orison."
You're right. I just get frustrated sometimes. Mea culpa. But slumber is still whack :p
I'll be honest, since you did take the time to talk to me about it I've learned a lot, so I appreciate it. It is the great curse of tabletop gaming to love something that vexes us so.
To be honest, we have seen a few Slumber witches kicking about (like three of them) and on the table the ability just wasn't 'all that'. Perhaps the limitations of PFS play kept the worst excess off it, but whilst it was good and novel, it just wasn't any more game changing than a pile of other stuff going on - we just haven't had a 'whoa' moment with it so far.
Given that of all the people we play with only two of them are the ones with witches, I have to say that the level of impression is not all that impressive - or we'd be seeing many more.
In short, you are measuring brake horsepower and giving us some great stats, but we're not seeing it at the wheel.
Edit - On a side note, and it's an observation, but the last time I saw such an impassioned protest it was about Animal Companions, and it turns out that the players making them weren't playing off a level bat on one hand, and the plaintiff didn't actually know the rules regarding them on the other - now that's not making an accusation at you, just pointing out that given past experience I am a bit skeptical about accepting 'this is broken' based on only what amounts to anecdotal stories, particularly when that hasn't been my experience. So not mocking you, just being healthily suspect.
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Oh, full disclosure. I have a character with slumber, lol. It was the only way I could find to make the crappy ass investigator class work in the playtest. I splashed two levels of witch, pretty much exclusively to get slumber, because that alone is really all you need to make at least some contribution to combats. All of which goes to prove my point... But lest you think I'm a hypocrite, I still say it should be errata'd. I will happily accept the nerf to my character.
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To be honest, we have seen a few Slumber witches kicking about (like three of them) and on the table the ability just wasn't 'all that'. Perhaps the limitations of PFS play kept the worst excess off it, but whilst it was good and novel, it just wasn't any more game changing than a pile of other stuff going on - we just haven't had a 'whoa' moment with it so far.
Given that of all the people we play with only two of them are the ones with witches, I have to say that the level of impression is not all that impressive - or we'd be seeing many more.
In short, you are measuring brake horsepower and giving us some great stats, but we're not seeing it at the wheel.
Do all PFS locations run the same adventures in the same order or is it chosen within the season? {Or some other order I obviously have no sense of?} I wonder if that accounts for some variability? Maybe certain areas are seeing better rolls...it would be unfortunate for me to discover that it really is better to game in certain places based on some weird dice aura of the locale...
I splashed two levels of witch, pretty much exclusively to get slumber, because that alone is really all you need to make at least some contribution to combats.
So you gave a pretty suboptimal character a dip into a better class to get access to something that wont scale at all, and will be effective for about five minutes? Should have dipped Barbarian instead and been useful for the rest of his/her career :)
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Oh, full disclosure. I have a character with slumber, lol. It was the only way I could find to make the crappy ass investigator class work in the playtest. I splashed two levels of witch, pretty much exclusively to get slumber, because that alone is really all you need to make at least some contribution to combats. All of which goes to prove my point... But lest you think I'm a hypocrite, I still say it should be errata'd. I will happily accept the nerf to my character.
I also find this quite amusing. So disclosed. LOL
Edit - On a side note, and it's an observation, but the last time I saw such an impassioned protest it was about Animal Companions, and it turns out that the players making them weren't playing off a level bat on one hand, and the plaintiff didn't actually know the rules regarding them on the other - now that's not making an accusation at you, just pointing out that given past experience I am a bit skeptical about accepting 'this is broken' based on only what amounts to anecdotal stories, particularly when that hasn't been my experience. So not mocking you, just being healthily suspect.
Now wait a second. I'm not making my appeal based on my experiences. I just threw those in. The appeal is based on the side by side comparisons to other spells, etc. I am still prepared to put slumber up against anything anyone can bring and show why it is better/more powerful.
This is maybe the big difference between the way we see things. In my mind, if it can be shown by analysis to be overpowered, I don't need to see any actual example of it causing problems to call for a ban. To me it's about theory and to you it's about practice.
In my mind, though, your way is like waiting for the global economy to crash before we decide that stricter finance regulations are a good idea. We all see how that went...
Do all PFS locations run the same adventures in the same order or is it chosen within the season?
The adventures are generally played in season, but then again they might be played in any particular order. What is significant here is not so much the adventure itself, but the power curve of where peoples WBL, Stats, etc are all kept in balance - and some of the more exotic races are very much kept in check.
What it does is keeps the characters fairly well even in terms of (modest) gear distribution, and aligns the scenarios well with the strength of the party.
It keeps things balanced, and wealth in check.
Which keeps DC's for Witch Slumber in check because you arent level 10 with a crazy high stat through high base build points and whacky +6 items.
At level 6 you might have your +2 stat, but your +4 is certainly not happening. Checks and balances.
Home game variations are enormous, PFS is very very minor.
I splashed two levels of witch, pretty much exclusively to get slumber, because that alone is really all you need to make at least some contribution to combats.So you gave a pretty suboptimal character a dip into a better class to get access to something that wont scale at all, and will be effective for about five minutes? Should have dipped Barbarian instead and been useful for the rest of his/her career :)
Nah, I don't play in PFS past level 11, and honestly probably won't play her past like 9th. Slumber is a kick ass option for her at low levels, and will remain viable as a side option throughout at least 8th level even without scaling it. And by then I'll have other stuff I can do. This is my point, really, about slumber. Even at level 9 or 10, having a side option of taking an enemy out completely, at range, for 2 and a half rounds, for zero expenditure of resources, is totally awesome, even at a Will DC of 18 (which is what it will be then).
EDIT: Incidentally, there's more to the build than that. I put everything into Int so I could also take advantage of the prehensile hair hex shenanigans. She's still not great, but she's an absurdly good skill monkey (pretty much across the board) who can at least contribute passably well in combat. And like I said, I couldn't figure out any other way to make a decent investigator.
In my mind, though, your way is like waiting for the global economy to crash before we decide that stricter finance regulations are a good idea. We all see how that went...
Actually you are a self proclaimed economist I don't know from Joe trying to tell me that the economy is busted because looking through a really really narrow prism you can see problems, but we can't look through the same prism, and according to all our tests and observations the economy is doing fine.
The lack of a bajillion witches running around further suggests we just aren't seeing it. And given the cheezemunchkin powergamer presence (bless their cotton socks) on these boards, if it was broken as all get out we'd be seeing those little grognards building NOTHING BUT Slumber doom champions of Gamebreakiness. But they aren't.
even at a Will DC of 18 (which is what it will be then).
How did you get your DC that high?
even at a Will DC of 18 (which is what it will be then).How did you get your DC that high?
Easy. My Int will be 24. That's a 17 immediately, +1 for 2nd level witch.
Looking through the CR 8-11 monsters, I see quite a few that have around a 50% chance (give or take) of getting put down by DC 18 Will save. Which is crazy, considering I will have only taken 2 levels of witch for it, and can just spam that crap all day (even if not against the same enemy twice).
OK so lets explore that -
IF you get within 30' of the target creature you can have a 50/50 crap shoot of stopping THAT creature for two rounds.
Now it is really unlikely for that creature to be alone, so that means its friend can wake it, or attack you whilst others attend the fallen, a whole range of things.
'Spamming' also means you now need to be within 30' of a whole bunch of targets, and I wonder just how often a squishy is being indulged when they can apparently stand so close to a bunch of mobs and not get mauled. Meanwhile the party Barbarian is just killing the foes and leaving you to your 50/50. Remember, if you are doing that, you aren't doing much else so its not like you are offering "all that good stuff AND this too!".
OK so lets explore that -
IF you get within 30' of the target creature you can have a 50/50 crap shoot of stopping THAT creature for two rounds.
Now it is really unlikely for that creature to be alone, so that means its friend can wake it, or attack you whilst others attend the fallen, a whole range of things.
'Spamming' also means you now need to be within 30' of a whole bunch of targets, and I wonder just how often a squishy is being indulged when they can apparently stand so close to a bunch of mobs and not get mauled. Meanwhile the party Barbarian is just killing the foes and leaving you to your 50/50. Remember, if you are doing that, you aren't doing much else so its not like you are offering "all that good stuff AND this too!".
I think you're missing the point. This character's thing is not combat. She's going to be a ludicrously good face/scout/infiltrator/all around skill monkey. The point here is that for an extremely small resource investment, she will be adequate at combat, and a huge part of that is slumber.
And yes, let's explore this. In several combats, she will take out (for 2 and 1/2 rounds anyway, which is major) either the only enemy or one of the big enemies, for, again, no expenditure of resources. How many times does that have to happen for it to be worth the virtually nothing I have cost myself to get it? Not very many. And again, it's just an option. And I never said she was squishy. Her AC and hp will be okay, and she'll have a reasonably good melee attack with her hair and studied strike. The hex is just an option. To have that as just a side thing I can do? Fricking fantastic.
And by the way, at 9th level she'll be flying around all the time anyway so her relative squishiness will be seriously mitigated in many situations.
And no, she won't be "optimized." I don't do "optimized." I do interesting first, and then optimize from there.
Just by way of example - I just looked in one of the last PFS scenarios I ran and went to one of the main encounters at T6-7 and the encounter was:
Possessed fighter (+8 Will save)
(Who once you beat becomes a Shadow Demon)
and
THREE Babaus (+5 Will save)
I don't think your slumber tactic is going to dominate that fight, I'd welcome you within 30' to try that one on - I reckon as a GM you'd make a delicious target (assuming you could even see to START Hexing) and then you'd be killed.
Just by way of example - I just looked in one of the last PFS scenarios I ran and went to one of the main encounters at T6-7 and the encounter was:
Possessed fighter (+8 Will save)
(Who once you beat becomes a Shadow Demon)
and
THREE Babaus (+5 Will save)I don't think your slumber tactic is going to dominate that fight, I'd welcome you within 30' to try that one on - I reckon as a GM you'd make a delicious target (assuming you could even see to START Hexing)
Arrrgh! She's not supposed to "dominate" fights. You really aren't getting the point here. In that fight, if the DM did decide to target me? Great. Then he's ignoring the real threat from my allies who are actually built for combat. And I really don't see how you're going to stop me from getting off at least one slumber on a babau, in which case I have a 65% chance of taking him down right there. At which point, I don't even have to do much else in order to have pulled my weight in that combat, considering I'm the skill monkey.
I have actually played a few PFS games, you know. Like, oh, over a hundred or so...
Wait, you are telling me Slumber is all broken and trivialises things and needs to be nerfed and allows you to dominate fights? Now it doesn't?
Your allies built for combat are around, sure, but the party just lost a member REALLY FAST, and no your chance against Mr Babau is not 65%, he has a +5 will save against your T6-7 Slumber - and your DC certainly wasnt 18 back then. So its a 50/50.
Now the party has to rescue you.
Mind you that was one fight.
The one before had you taking a group of Level 5 Barbarians and their 'Spiritual leader', once again - you CERTAIN you want to get up and personal in that fight?
By reference I opened the Scenario before that, and your Slumber wouldn't have come into play except in one opening fight with a couple of mooks. You'd have MAYBE been able to put a trash Guard out. Thats it - Slumber would be useless the whole scenario.
How many would you like me to keep opening? It's not going so well so far, as a GM I'd have been more worried by a party Paladin who could actually stop the darn creatures and not fall over dead a second later.
I have actually played a few PFS games, you know. Like, oh, over a hundred or so...
Then I'd expect you to know better.
Wait, you are telling me Slumber is all broken and trivialises things and needs to be nerfed and allows you to dominate fights? Now it doesn't?
Your allies built for combat are around, sure, but the party just lost a member REALLY FAST, and no your chance against Mr Babau is not 65%, he has a +5 will save against your T6-7 Slumber - and your DC certainly wasnt 18 back then. So its a 50/50.
Now the party has to rescue you.
Mind you that was one fight.
The one before had you taking a group of Level 5 Barbarians and their 'Spiritual leader', once again - you CERTAIN you want to get up and personal in that fight?
By reference I opened the Scenario before that, and your Slumber wouldn't have come into play except in one opening fight with a couple of mooks. You'd have MAYBE been able to put a trash Guard out. Thats it - Slumber would be useless the whole scenario.
How many would you like me to keep opening? It's not going so well so far, as a GM I'd have been more worried by a party Paladin who could actually stop the darn creatures and not fall over dead a second later.
Dude, seriously. I've done this a lot. It's fine. Yes, I can get within 30 feet of them and be fine. I have melee attacks too, if it comes to it. In the far more likely scenario that the melee dudes among the enemy engage the melee dudes in my party, I can hang back and slumber at them with impunity. Sure, they can get out of position to come fight me if they want. My monk and fighter and rogue friends will make them pay for it. And that's assuming my zone controller or wizard friend are even allowing it to happen. Etc...
And you're missing my point, once again, about slumber and this character. I'm not saying that "slumber is all broken and trivialises things and needs to be nerfed and allows you to dominate fights? Now it doesn't?" I still say it is and I still say it does. I'm saying I can just casually throw it on to this character and get a super awesome combat side option, and she's not even built to use it. She's not levelled up in witch; she doesn't have accursed hex, etc. And it's still a decent option in a lot of situations.
And yeah, I will already most likely have the DC 18 by level 7. My Int will be 24 by then.
I have actually played a few PFS games, you know. Like, oh, over a hundred or so...Then I'd expect you to know better.
Are you for real? I mean seriously. Honestly. Are you just trolling me at this point? I do know better. I know better than you. I HAVE DONE THIS A LOT.
Dude, seriously. I've done this a lot. It's fine. Yes, I can get within 30 feet of them and be fine. I have melee attacks too, if it comes to it. In the far more likely scenario that the melee dudes among the enemy engage the melee dudes in my party, I can hang back and slumber at them with impunity. Sure, they can get out of position to come fight me if they want. My monk and fighter and rogue friends will make them pay for it. And that's assuming my zone controller or wizard friend are even allowing it to happen. Etc...
So now you are saying that slumber is awesome as long as you have a whole party of heavy hitters backing you and the bad guys don't react to it or do anything about it, that seems to be a looooong way away from your 'it dominates' position and you reading a magic figure of 50% of DC8 creatures being soloed by you.
At that point you may as well just be an equally statted up bunny throwing Glitterdust, except that's likely to wreck several creatures.
24 Int at L6? Thats pretty amazing, I haven't seen a single build close to that in all the characters I have seen, so props to you if you have a robust character with that much resource allocation to one stat.
The more you add to this though, the less significant and gamebreaking the slumber looks, your 50/50 kill is less reliable per round than an even level AMBARBARIAN and he doesn't need as much support and protection. He will 100% kill in two rounds, possibly one, you are still tossing coins. In a shootout I'd prefer an extra Barbarian of equal level than rely on the gimmick.
Dude, seriously. I've done this a lot. It's fine. Yes, I can get within 30 feet of them and be fine. I have melee attacks too, if it comes to it. In the far more likely scenario that the melee dudes among the enemy engage the melee dudes in my party, I can hang back and slumber at them with impunity. Sure, they can get out of position to come fight me if they want. My monk and fighter and rogue friends will make them pay for it. And that's assuming my zone controller or wizard friend are even allowing it to happen. Etc...
So now you are saying that slumber is awesome as long as you have a whole party of heavy hitters backing you and the bad guys don't react to it or do anything about it, that seems to be a looooong way away from your 'it dominates' position and you reading a magic figure of 50% of DC8 creatures being soloed by you.
At that point you may as well just be an equally statted up bunny throwing Glitterdust, except that's likely to wreck several creatures.
24 Int at L6? Thats pretty amazing, I haven't seen a single build close to that in all the characters I have seen, so props to you if you have a robust character with that much resource allocation to one stat.
The more you add to this though, the less significant and gamebreaking the slumber looks, your 50/50 kill is less reliable per round than an even level AMBARBARIAN and he doesn't need as much support and protection. He will 100% kill in two rounds, possibly one, you are still tossing coins. In a shootout I'd prefer an extra Barbarian of equal level than rely on the gimmick.
Okay. First I said 24 Int at level 7, not 6. That is not difficult with a +4 Int boost item for 16,000, which is easily obtainable at that level, especially in PFS if you always play up, as I always do. Second, why are you continually ignoring my point? I am saying that slumber is so awesome that it is a decent option even for this relatively crappy character who has in no way been built to take full advantage of it . I have not been trying to use this character as my example of how uber awesome slumber can be. For that you would obviously want a fully levelled witch with accursed hex. Said witch would be constantly flying around after level 5 due to flight hex (thereby avoiding melee easily with your babaus and barbarians), and tossing slumbers at DC 20 (70% chance of 7 round drop against your babaus) rather than 18. And that's if she didn't feel like, oh, I don't know, casting any spells.
You have also been continually comparing my character's combat output to that of other characters who are built for combat, which is an absurd thing to do, as I have repeatedly stated that the character in question is not primarily a combat build. The barbarians and such from your examples do not average 25's on their skill rolls with 20 different skills, as this character does. It's apples to oranges.
And I don't know why you keep insisting that she's so squishy. At level 8 she has AC 22 (24 if she used barkskin, 26 with shield, 28 with both), 60 hit points and one attack per round at +13 for an average of 20 damage (with reach and combat reflexes). It's not like she's a total pushover. My point is that I was able to just throw slumber on, for nothing, since I was already going for the prehensile hair thing, and now she has this totally awesome combat option in certain circumstances. For nothing. Not to mention that she can just, say, cast levitate or whatever and do it that way if she really needs to stay out of melee with your barbarians. And after level 8 she's constantly flying anyway.
Honestly, what will it take to make you address the things I actually say rather than your feverish, deluded distortions of what I'm saying? Is this an Australian thing? You're taking the piss, or whatever you guys say? I don't know, but anyway I give up. You're a pizza burn on the roof of the world's mouth. You're the AT&T of people. You're the opposite of Batman. And I'm going to bed.
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I feel you man. I hate wizards with a passion. And believe me, I've been around the block too. But that doesn't mean I'm ready to throw up my hands and give up on the notion of balance forever. Keep fighting the good fight!
I'll drop the socks for a second because I really mean this, I just tend to obfuscate my "rant" posts from my normal day to day PBP interactions that make up most of my main's posting history.
I am honestly at the point where I look at things and I think that balance cannot be achieved by any universal notion. In my experience (and the reason I even throw my hat in the ring during this sort of conversation) there is always something about one person's notion of fair and balanced that does not meet the notion of another. It seems to me, at best, you can find parity of interest and belief in a group and even then balance...I wouldn't claim so. There are always better rules players, better "role" players, luckier "roll" payers. The whole point is to play something -dynamic- otherwise....video games?
That's not to say that design and equity are not mechanics worth striving for but in my experience if there is a problem with slumber hexes, magic missiles or any of the things I mentioned before it probably stems much more to root issues like player/GM expectations and whether that parity of interests meet rather than a single game mechanic.
My one caveat is a forced setting like PFS or cons, but it seems like boots on the ground (so far) say there isn't a great slumber hex witch revolt...but there was on synthesists and vivisectionists so maybe the ban hammer on witches are next.
It may be the graet YMMV cop-out but I haven't seen it disrupt the game I'm in with a sleep witch...and the fighter could coup de grace for some serious...
If you look the PFS board, there is a thread about putting a cap to initiative, as some character regularly go first and wipe away the enemies, with the slower characters not getting to do anything for a whole adventure.
The general consensus was that the problem isn't how initiative work but glory hogs players.When speaking of PC and the slumber hex it work the same way. It can be a problem if a player want to be the one that always win the fight, it will not be a problem as long as the player is willing to share the spotlight.
Really? Often the players are outnumbering? I guess I never really thought about it but that hasn't been consistent for me playing or running. I would honestly say mixed to even split not that I can honestly remember every encounter I've ever been involved in. But that doesn't feel like my experience. *shrug*
A good number of encounter in published adventures have single enemies in important encounters, probably because it is easier for the GM to run a single strong enemy that several slightly weaker ones.
While comprehensible it make some playstyle stronger than intended.Slumber VS raiding party of frost giant with an adept and some ranger or barbarian in the giant group? Useful but not overwhelming.
Slumber (possibly coupled with Ice tomb to get a second attempt to stop the giant) VS a single Storm giant with the same CR of the above raiding party? One bad roll for the save and the fight will be won.
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When speaking of PC and the slumber hex it work the same way. It can be a problem if a player want to be the one that always win the fight, it will not be a problem as long as the player is willing to share the spotlight.
No, really, I invite the Witch to win the initiative, race out the front past the party all by themselves to within 30' of the wall of enemies (because there will be more than one) and just take a 50/50 crapshoot at nailing one, because what happens next will be a real crowd pleaser.
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If something's unbalanced, they ought to ban it the second they notice that. Why wait for more people to abuse it? Why even discuss it? Just get rid of it. Why is this notion even controversial? The entire community should be standing together whenever we see something OP, and demanding that it go away. OP=it should go away. Simplest equation there can be. Only in an insane world like this one should such issues provoke discussion at all.
A lot of people don't care as long as they get to be the one that use the OP option.
Others play rocket tag Pathfinder. If you don't kill the enemy before he act, you are dead. So they "need" the OP option, as the enemy will have its set of OP options.
And then there are those that don't optimize so much, so the OP option isn't so OP. Slumber powered to the max to get the hardest DC possible for the save is one thing. Slumber if you have a witch with a good but not maxed intelligence and without the other frills is fairly different.
I am saying that slumber is so awesome that it is a decent option even for this relatively crappy character who has...
It is a decent option, however your assertion was that it was awesomesauce and needs a nerf. This just isn't bearing out.
I also like the disclosure that you always play up etc, that's cool, you game the system for mechanical advantage to obtain superior WBL and effectiveness and you have friends that carry you and forgiving GM's or something, though I still don't think you are being entirely straight and this sort of tale backs it up.
No, a full blown witch would not be 'flying around and avoiding Babaus', because strangely enough the constraints of the encounter doesn't afford that flexibility. Like I said earlier, you seem to rely on 'perfect storm' conditions to demonstrate why its super powered, then backpedal when it comes unstuck and your story gets subject to scrutiny.
At the end of the day you can call me names and have a tanty and go to bed, that's fine, but this has all shown that the Emperor has no clothes.
One problem I think is that a lot of people are comparing Slumber (a class ability) with a single spell. The thing is, Slumber, being a class ability, scales better than individual spells because a single spell is not AN ENTIRE CLASS ABILITY. If you want to compare the Slumber hex's usefulness across a character's whole career you have to compare it to other abilities. So you have to compare it to something like say... bombs (which can allow an Alchemist to become one of the most rediculous battlefield controllers b applying Stunned, Confused, Entangled, and god knows what else on the opponents in a single turn while STILL doing good damage), or Smite Evil (which is just all sort s of juiciness), or an Oracle's Mysteries (Heaven's Oracle I am looking at you).
Compared to other abilities it just doesn't look as hot. Heck, compared to other hexes Slumber is not that hot. In most real world games, Evil Eye+Cackle+Misfortune together is MUCH more backbreaking...
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Mind you, this is an odd set up we're given in the original post.
Take a high CR encounter, with a low will save (+6 for a CR 9). The give two people the advantage of setting, positioning, and initiative.
A similar argument could be made for two raging barbarians with great axes getting the jump on a 9th level wizard. I think the barbarians could take down the wizard with his low HP and low AC in the same fashion that a barbarian and a witch could take the frost giant.
400 posts on and we've had quite a lot of discussion about the likelihood of this scenario :-)
But to take your other point, this thread is about the game being *changed* by the introduction of Slumber Hex and, if so, how. The two raging barbarians vs wizard situation is as absolutely true now as it's ever been - which is why we know that wizards don't wander around unprotected.
Richard
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One problem I think is that a lot of people are comparing Slumber (a class ability) with a single spell. The thing is, Slumber, being a class ability, scales better than individual spells because a single spell is not AN ENTIRE CLASS ABILITY. If you want to compare the Slumber hex's usefulness across a character's whole career you have to compare it to other abilities. So you have to compare it to something like say... bombs (which can allow an Alchemist to become one of the most rediculous battlefield controllers b applying Stunned, Confused, Entangled, and god knows what else on the opponents in a single turn while STILL doing good damage), or Smite Evil (which is just all sort s of juiciness), or an Oracle's Mysteries (Heaven's Oracle I am looking at you).
Compared to other abilities it just doesn't look as hot. Heck, compared to other hexes Slumber is not that hot. In most real world games, Evil Eye+Cackle+Misfortune together is MUCH more backbreaking...
Bombs should be compared to the Hex ability, not to a single hex.
They have plenty of feats and discoveries that enhance the bomb ability, so comparing a single hex to it is comparing the nutritional value of a oranges against a apple slice and saying that the orange "win".If you want to compare a single hex with something, you should compare it to another single ability at the same level, like an oracle revelation that you can take at fist level.
In this thread people has compared it to the Heaven oracle Awesome Display ability. Or you can compare it to the fire oracle Fire Breath ability.
You do the same thing again when you compare a 3 hex combo to a single hex.
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To the Op no imo not at all.
One thing people for is that nowhere does it say that when you sleep your fall down and are prone. It says in the spell description "Sleeping creatures are not helpless". As well you can wake a creature under a slumber hex with a standard action or if the creature takes damage. Imo I think people assume that as soon as you fall victim to the Sleep spell that you collapse on the floor as if one was sleeping in bed. Nowhere does it say that in the spell. Since it's not in the spell description I don't consider anyone under the effects of a sleep hex prone.