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Out of curiosity, if I choose *not* to take Weapon Focus in my deity's favored weapon, does it still qualify for sacred weapon and the like? It would seem to be the case that it does, but the wording is not completely clear...
It does. So it seems the best option for every Warpriest is to focus in a different weapon than the deity's so they have two SW options right off the bat. A dex-based warpriest of Sarenrae with Scimitar + Longbow for instance.
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I really like the changes...dam good job. One thing I'm still wondering about though....Why does Gorum have the Earth Blessing and not Torag?
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Something that somehow still managed to sneak past the devs on both the original incarnation of the playtest and the newest revision:
Earth Blessing's deities should be changed to Abadar and Torag, not Gorum and Nethys.
•I see a future where 90% of Warpriests are using Scimitars or Kukris.
•The Blessings remain rather disappointing, power-wise.
•Tying all your mechanics to a single weapon still cripples you when you have to swap weapons in order to participate (ie: Flying creatures vs a melee Warpriest).
•Still horribly MAD.
•Concerns about casting from the Cleric list on a hindered spell progression remain.But it's not all bad news: Fervor is a good fix. :)
All in all, I still don't see a reason to pick this class over the other divine melee options, unless my only goal is to cheese-out some uber scimitar damage.
All the mechanics are not tied to one weapon, as you can see here:
In addition to the favored weapon of his deity, the warpriest can designate a weapon as a sacred weapon by selecting that weapon
with the Weapon Focus feat (if he has multiple Weapon
Focus feats, this ability applies to all of them). Whenever
the warpriest is wielding a sacred weapon, he treats his
warpriest level as his base attack bonus for attacks made
with that weapon, stacking with any base attack bonus
from other classes or racial Hit Dice.So just take weapon focus longbow with that large amount of bonus feats the class has.
I missed that. Fair enough. :)
My other concerns are still valid, I feel.
Yes your other complaints are valid and I agree. I just forgot to put that in my previous post. Sorry man!
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While I do not like this revision, it is a step in the right direction. There are a few remaining problems I'd like to bring up.
Skills: The Warpriest is asked to be both Fighter (Climb, Survival, etc.) and Cleric (Know Religion, Spellcraft, etc.) but does not have enough skill points to cover this. Add in the class being 'MAD' and you have the same sort of problem the Paladin runs in to. However, I'm not sure how dire a problem this is since the issue hasn't caused Paladins to become unplayable either. I would call this low to moderate priority, if it's fixable at all.
Attributes: As others have noted, class is kind of MAD-oriented. It already competes with a few other Wis-based casters in its field (Cleric, Inquisitor if I recall right, Ranger and Druid in a sense if you accept them as competitors to the Warpriest)... would it be possible to move this class to being Cha-based instead of Wis-based?
Other than that, you have a class I would now realistically consider building characters with. This is very much an improvement over version 1!
After playtesting the original version of the Warpriest, I was really looking forward to getting back to my Inquisitor. With the new updates, I'm actually considering sticking with the Wapriest for another session, to see how the changes play out. I doubt that session will happen before the end of the playtest, but I'll at least rebuild the character to see if I can learn anything useful from that.
My remaining concerns match those of many others. The class is short on skills (but so is every other 2+int class), and is very MAD. Given the improved combat ability, these might be acceptable. I still think I'll end up back on the Inquisitor (I do love me some skill points), but at least it actually feels like a real choice now.
Personally, I'm hoping against another Cha based caster, (Cleric/Fighter, not Fighter/Oracle), and would much rather they switch all abilities to Wis based.
yes, this.
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In rebuilding the two warpriests I already had in play (both of which dumped Charisma), I have found that their to-hit remained exactly where it was (thanks to the BAB=level for their sacred weapons); damage dropped incrementally for the warpriest of Gorum, but was compensated slightly by the better Power Attack progression; their party-level healing all but vanished; and I am paying much more attention to their prepped spells (since most fights will see at least one self-buff), which looks likely to result in some nova-style damage improvements over their previous iterations. I am disappointed I can't use weapon of awe or align weapon and the like with fervor, however.
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I really like the changes.
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Here is one thing I noticed.
The capstone ability, Aspect of War, seems to have not changed at all. And while that's fine since there was nothing wrong with it before, there is one thing about it that is out of place with this new revision:
"After activating this ability, for 1 minute the warpriest treats his level as his base attack bonus"
With the sacred weapon ability giving you that BaB anyway, this part of Aspect of War seems kind of useless for anyone using a favored weapon. What if the ability gave say some bonus to hit or to damage if the warpriest is wielding their sacred weapon?
I also wondered about this. However, I'm also wondering about times/day. Do you gain these abilities for one minute/day? That seems rather weak. One minute per encounter? That's a little better.
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Not Weapon Focus, a Fighter can get that too.So, uhhh...what did you get that a Fighter dip couldn't get you again?1st level spells, an average damage of 1 higher if wielding a d4 weapon, weapon focus, a good will save.
Though it shouldn't surprise folks that the Hybrid of a Fighter is dip friendly.
I thought since Warpriest is an alternate class of fighter, you couldn't dip into Fighter (or Cleric).
Does this mean that Warpriest levels do not qualify for fighter-only feats like Weapon Specialization?
I second this query.
This is very important information to have when remembering the number of Bonus Feats the Warpriest gets.Another question: Sacred Weapon specifies that you must select a weapon by selecting it with the Weapon Focus feat. That's no big deal, because you get it for free, right? Well, if you choose the Improved Unarmed Strike option instead, because your deity offers you Unarmed Strike, you suddenly don't qualify for selecting your fists as your Sacred Weapon.
Are you then meant to take Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) manually after the fact, so that you can then count it as your Sacred Weapon? Is that the intent?
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Whenever the warpriest is wielding a sacred weapon, he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus for attacks made with that weapon, stacking with any base attack bonus from other classes or racial Hit Dice.
That's what I get for trying to read so many classes so quickly, I suppose. My bad!
Normally it just keeps going until you turn an ability like this off (free action normally) or whatever caused it to activate is no longer doing so.
Yeah, I know, but it doesn't actually say that (unless I'm failing at speed-reading again).
Does this mean that Warpriest levels do not qualify for fighter-only feats like Weapon Specialization?I second this query.
This is very important information to have when remembering the number of Bonus Feats the Warpriest gets.Another question: Sacred Weapon specifies that you must select a weapon by selecting it with the Weapon Focus feat. That's no big deal, because you get it for free, right? Well, if you choose the Improved Unarmed Strike option instead, because your deity offers you Unarmed Strike, you suddenly don't qualify for selecting your fists as your Sacred Weapon.
Are you then meant to take Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) manually after the fact, so that you can then count it as your Sacred Weapon? Is that the intent?
The way I read Sacred Weapon, your deity's favored weapon counts whether or not you have weapon focus in it.
Weapons wielded by a warpriest are charged with the power of his faith. In addition to the favored weapon of his deity, the warpriest can designate a weapon as a sacred weapon by selecting that weapon with the Weapon Focus feat...
Dig this a lot, all good changes...but man this thing is still MAD as hell. Need to streamline some of the stat needs somehow.
Unarmed Strike already either doesn't work with Sacred Weapon, or works so strangely that they need to comment on it specifically.
Initial Thoughts:
I like that this is a 6-Level Prepared Divine Spellcaster. Aside from this and the Hunter, we don't have any of those.
What if your deity's favored weapon is a shield? Adding the option to select Improved Shield Bash would be nice. (Though personally, this is a house rule I've been using for about a year now for Clerics and Inquisitors).
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Personally, I'm hoping against another Cha based caster, (Cleric/Fighter, not Fighter/Oracle), and would much rather they switch all abilities to Wis based.
This. So much this. Tie the wisdom based caster to wisdom a bit more than him only needing a 16 by 20th level. For a lot of campaigns, starting with a 14 is plenty viable, and you really don't need to start pumping until level 12ish. I second the idea of swapping Fervor to wisdom.
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Okay, awkward issue with Focus Weapon.
Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon Focus as a bonus feat (choosing any weapon, not just his deity’s favored weapon). If his deity’s favored weapon is unarmed strike, he can instead select Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
According to the FAQ on Unarmed Strike as a Favored Weapon...
Favored Weapon (Unarmed Strike): If my deity's favored weapon is Unarmed Strike, do I gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat?
Yes, if your class grants you proficiency in your deity's favored weapon as a class ability.
Various emphasis is various.
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Now that I'm going back and reading this class more carefully, I noticed something else. Fervor takes a standard action to use on somebody else and requires a touch. Channel Energy is gained two levels later, heals in a 30-foot burst, also uses a standard action, and shares its usage pool with Fervor. I realize Fervor gives you the option of healing yourself as a swift action, but is the single-target standard-action touch version ever likely to see use after 3rd level? If you can spare the standard action, why aren't you channeling? I guess maybe because you don't have Selective Channeling, likely because you don't have the requisite 13 Charisma? (:
Actually, the Charisma prerequisite for Selective Channeling is a slight bummer for this class. Even if the designers axe the Charisma requirements of this class, warpriests will likely pretend they don't have Channel Energy in combat. It just fights their overall plan too much.
Dear Design Team,
I love you, and I'm glad it's reciprocated. This is an amazing class now, and I'm really excited to try one out.
You guys do great work. Thanks for sorting through so much nonsense to create these great classes.
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They are MAD but at the same time, the fact that they have the cleric spell list actually does help a lot with many of their weaknesses. Divine favor + Deity favored weapon + Sacred Damage+Power attack is bound to do some monstrous damage and crazy high attack rolls.
Glad to see that my suggestion to move the bonus feat away from level 1 was taken into account.
I'll head into the blessings discussion thread.
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Okay, awkward issue with Focus Weapon.That answer is from the Golarion Rules and Questions FAQ, which is for Golarion-specific questions and answers. The fact that they included that clause in a setting-neutral class write-up is probably wise.
I was implying that the fact that Unarmed Strike was your deity's favored weapon automagically gave you the bonus feat of Improved Unarmed Strike so that you could actually do things with your fists instead of taking all sorts of penalties. Because without the IUS feat you're not actually proficient with Unarmed Strike as a weapon.
That means the Focus Weapon ability should give Weapon Focus to warpriests with unarmed strike the same as any other weapon, because Improved Unarmed Strike should already be covered by the fact they're proficient with Unarmed Strikes.
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For what it's worth, I'd be gladly willing to settle for an archetype that moves to Cha casting instead of Wis casting. If the general urge is the base class should keep Wis, I'm alright with that but would love some kind of alternative to exist.
This class is very, very close to being the "All Alignments Paladin" I deeply want, and that one change would be enough to get it there for me.
I'm rewriting my warpriest to incorporate these changes, so I'll have some playtest data later this week. Non-blessing related questions/concerns that I've noticed thus far:
1. As it stands, the class is still quite MAD. This may be intended to account for the other class features, and I'm okay with that. If the decision is made to ease this situation, though, I would like to see spellcasting/fervor/channeling/blessings tied to WIS rather than CHA to differentiate from the paladin.
2. The armor properties selection for sacred armor feels a little too limited. Here is a list of other properties that apply to all types of armor and don't have any per day abilities that seem thematically appropriate: benevolent, deathless, ghost touch, grinding, impervious, invulnerability, rallying, stanching. I'm not saying all these would need to be added, but a little more variety would be nice. Perhaps they could be available based around alignment restrictions kind of like axiomatic and holy are for sacred weapon.
3. The ability in fervor to swift cast spells should allow for spells that target the warpriest's weapons and armor as well.
4. With the BAB change to sacred weapon, aspect of war feels a little underwhelming for a capstone. Perhaps an additional attack at the highest BAB that doesn't stack with haste would be a suitable replacement? Also, the ability needs to be cleared up to state how often it can be used. I'm guessing once per day?
In any case, I think this is a huge improvement over the initial design. Kudos to you guys for listening to your playerbase and finding some great compromises between competing ideas about the role/function of this class!
That means the Focus Weapon ability should give Weapon Focus to warpriests with unarmed strike the same as any other weapon, because Improved Unarmed Strike should already be covered by the fact they're proficient with Unarmed Strikes.
yeah, i noticed that too.
I'm disappointed that I can't get power attack or draw my weapon during a move at first level. Other than that, it looks good to me.
you can... your BAB is your class level with your focused weapons starting at first when you get sacred weapon as well.
Hey, they took away the forced reliance on favored weapons. Not only that, but they added a progressive boost to damage dice along the lines of the Monk's unarmed strike. So people who don't want to use their deity's favored weapon for either roleplaying or gameplay reasons don't have to, and people who DO want to use the favored weapon can now use it viably and effectively!
Talk about a win/win! :D
Oh, and guess what? Sarenrae's warpriests are probably grinning with glee: they can Weapon Focus at 1st level to go with their Weapon Finesse, and along with all the bonus feats, their 1d6 schimitars now get better damage dice as they level up...
Now that I'm going back and reading this class more carefully, I noticed something else. Fervor takes a standard action to use on somebody else and requires a touch. Channel Energy is gained two levels later, heals in a 30-foot burst, also uses a standard action, and shares its usage pool with Fervor. I realize Fervor gives you the option of healing yourself as a swift action, but is the single-target standard-action touch version ever likely to see use after 3rd level? If you can spare the standard action, why aren't you channeling? I guess maybe because you don't have Selective Channeling, likely because you don't have the requisite 13 Charisma? (:
Probably because you're in the position to do a needed spot-heal and you don't want to spend the two uses of fervor channeling requires. :)
That's a good point about selective channel though, and does put a damper on the idea of tying their abilities to WIS. I guess they could errata selective channeling to tie it to the character's channeling stat, or add in a new feat that does the same thing with a wisdom base.
Or we could just accept that a warpriest's version of selective channeling is to just beat any unintended channeling targets back into the dirt!
Color me surprised. This takes two of the most radical suggestions I supported (full BAB with chosen weapon, free choice of weapon), one I didn't (homogenized weapon damage), and some other doodads (here, have a free Weapon Focus). Fervor works. This actually looks better for a number of purposes than Fighter 1/Cleric X, without completely eclipsing the triple threat cleric. Congratulations. Playability has been achieved!
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I'm disappointed that I can't get power attack or draw my weapon during a move at first level. Other than that, it looks good to me.you can... your BAB is your class level with your focused weapons starting at first when you get sacred weapon as well.
It only says I treat my BAB as my class level for "attacks made with that weapon". Doesn't help for feats or drawing a weapon.
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Holy cow, does that look massively overpowered.
Basically full BAB (how many characters really use more than one weapon on a regular basis), a bonus feat at first level (WF) and spells.
It appears to just get better. I _like_ it because I'd like to play one. But balance wise, it just is too much when compared to a fighter.
MAD issues don't really apply. Yes, a higher CHR helps, but you don't _need_ it. Furvor is good with a 10 or 12 CHR.
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Finally, I'd suggest not doing the "different BAB on different Weapons" thing--just too confusing. Go with full BAB and a -1 to hit at levels 1, 5, 9 etc. with all other weapons. Yes, it's slightly better. But it's also a lot cleaner.
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I was implying that the fact that Unarmed Strike was your deity's favored weapon automagically gave you the bonus feat of Improved Unarmed Strike so that you could actually do things with your fists instead of taking all sorts of penalties. Because without the IUS feat you're not actually proficient with Unarmed Strike as a weapon.
That means the Focus Weapon ability should give Weapon Focus to warpriests with unarmed strike the same as any other weapon, because Improved Unarmed Strike should already be covered by the fact they're proficient with Unarmed Strikes.
Right. I know what you were implying. And my answer is still valid. The FAQ you're reading that says you automatically get Improved Unarmed Strike if it's your deity's favoured weapon is not a FAQ about the core line. It's a Golarion-specific FAQ, in a Golarion-specific FAQ section, written by (unless I'm mistaken) James Jacobs, who isn't on the design team. I agree that it's silly that it's setting-specific, but it is. Given that GMs using only the setting-neutral core books aren't necessarily going by that setting-specific ruling, I think it was wise for the warpriest to include the caveat of allowing Improved Unarmed Strike as an alternative to Weapon Focus, especially since taking Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) is still an option with the current rules if you're playing a Golarion game and using the Golarion FAQ. It doesn't say you have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, only that it's an option.
Sorry for the confusion!
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It only says I treat my BAB as my class level for "attacks made with that weapon". Doesn't help for feats or drawing a weapon.
I noticed this too. The bonus feats should probably have a caveat that allows you to treat your BAB as your warpriest level (plus BAB gained from other classes) for the purposes of qualifying for them.
I was implying that the fact that Unarmed Strike was your deity's favored weapon automagically gave you the bonus feat of Improved Unarmed Strike so that you could actually do things with your fists instead of taking all sorts of penalties. Because without the IUS feat you're not actually proficient with Unarmed Strike as a weapon.
That means the Focus Weapon ability should give Weapon Focus to warpriests with unarmed strike the same as any other weapon, because Improved Unarmed Strike should already be covered by the fact they're proficient with Unarmed Strikes.
Right. I know what you were implying. And my answer is still valid. The FAQ you're reading that says you automatically get Improved Unarmed Strike if it's your deity's favoured weapon is not a FAQ about the core line. It's a Golarion-specific FAQ, in a Golarion-specific FAQ section, written by (unless I'm mistaken) James Jacobs, who isn't on the design team. I agree that it's silly that it's setting-specific, but it is. Given that GMs using only the setting-neutral core books aren't necessarily going by that setting-specific ruling, I think it was wise for the warpriest to include the caveat of allowing Improved Unarmed Strike as an alternative to Weapon Focus, especially since taking Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) is still an option with the current rules if you're playing a Golarion game and using the Golarion FAQ. It doesn't say you have to take Improved Unarmed Strike, only that it's an option.
Sorry for the confusion!
actually, i think what he was getting at though was that improved unarmed strike isn't actually the appropriate feat equivalence since you can still benefit from weapon focus (unarmed strike). that golarion specific ruling really should just be a general ruling. IUS is equivalent to a weapon proficiency not weapon focus.
actually, i think what he was getting at though was that improved unarmed strike isn't actually the appropriate feat equivalence since you can still benefit from weapon focus (unarmed strike). that golarion specific ruling really should just be a general ruling. IUS is equivalent to a weapon proficiency not weapon focus.
Right! Seems to me the way to fix this would be to remove the IUS from focus weapon and offer it instead of the favored weapon proficiency for deities that favor unarmed strikes.
I will post this query;
Is the wording of Sacred Weapon intended to prohibit a level 1 Warpriest from qualifying for Power Attack with said Sacred Weapon?
If this is the case, why?
(Also, I find it awkward that Greater Weapon Focus lists both a +1 BaB and 8th level Fighter as prereqs...the second assumes the first...)
Gender change: classes should use the feminine.
Errr...why? The classes have always used the pronoun of what the Iconic is going to be.
The only thing I have concerns about with this class is the focus weapon getting scaling damage and the heavy MAD this class suffers from. As at least one other poster has mentioned, the scaling damage of the sacred weapon will make high crit weapons like the scimitar and the kukri incredibly powerful. I can easily see the possibility of a weapon with the damage rating of a greatsword with a 15-20 critical range making every other martial class completely obsolete.
The other problem this class runs into is a heavy case of MAD. Not only does it need CHA to swift cast a large number of spells per day, it also needs WIS to cast, DEX or STR to attack with, and CON to have enough hp to survive fights. Fervor and the spellcasting should be based on the same stat, and now that we have the ability to choose our own focus weapon, the need to even out their power is unneeded and a bit over the top.
While some mention the sacred weapons feature not lasting enough, I don't feel this is TOO hindering, given that many of your cleric spells will be a better use of a swift action anyways. The class could also use more skill points, to make it useful outside of smiting things. Overall though, I'm quite impressed with the results of this class's update, and I feel it is pretty close to being ready for print.
Blessings are also in need of work, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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It might be a terrible terrible idea.. But I'ma make a warpriest shuriken flinger.