*sigh*
Folks, I'm serious. I don't want the brawler thread to be overtaken by a discussion of brass knuckles, whether or not PF monks and brawlers should use them, whether or not real badass fistfighters would use them, and so on.
This thread is for discussing the brawler class playtest material. Please stay on-topic.
If you want to make another thread about brass knuckles and so on, feel free to do so, such as in Rules Questions, or Pathfinder RPG General Discussion, or even Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew. See, I have to read the playtest threads; it's a critical part of my job right now. But I also have to develop spells and other content for the ACG, and time spent reading or skimming past off-topic posts in a thread I have to read is taking up valuable time I could be using to make progress on getting the other parts of this book done. I need to focus on the playtest and the ACG. All I'm asking is that you not go out of your way to make my job more difficult than it needs to be.
I welcome discussion of other topics, but this topic needs to be about the brawler, so I only have 100 on-topic posts to read per day instead of 100 on-topic posts per day interspersed with 50–150 off-topic posts in the same thread.
That's all I'm saying: please take non-brawler talk to another thread, so this thread can focus on the brawler, so this book doesn't become late.
Thank you.
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What does everyone think about expanding the choices for Martial Maneuvers to include style and/or performance feats?
Also, about the "badass martial artist" vs "thug"... I get the impression that most folks were viewing the brawler to be closer to "thug" than "martial artist".
-j
Ah yes, but they are Pathfinder PC class 'thugs', not just morons mooching around the street 'thugs'.
I think my example of Mike Tyson might hold. A level 1 Brawler is already more powerful than a level 1 unarmed Warrior. He'd punch the poo out of the poor guy.
Going by the accepted 'real-world' equivalents, a level 5 Brawler is a world-champion boxer or MMA fighter.
By the time his party friends are teleporting and transforming into animals, he can already rip limbs off, punch through walls, - a mere thug would weep and cry to see this beast.
On a tangent: how long would it take for a 10th level Brawler to break out of solitary confinement in a modern prison?
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Argh my post had some non-knuckle stuff >.< Ah well, these things happen ('n' I'm not sure if your forum tools let you scrub only parts of posts anyway, this setup isn't one I'm familiar with...)
Anyway, preliminary testing reveals that the Brawler stuggles mightily with classical enemies. I threw a level 11 human Brawler through four encounters, refreshing hit points, consumables, and ability uses between each:
- 16 vampire spawn attacking in waves of four, fought inside the twisting ruins of their crypt. Brawler was much more powerful than any individual spawn, but with flanking and Aid Another they wore him down with energy drain.
- Four Erinyes, fought in a cathedral they'd just desecrated. This one was shameful, honestly. Brawler never got close to them - he won initiative, attempted (and failed) to jump up to the rafters where they lurked, spent the rest of his turn climbing a tapestry, and then got hit with Unholy Blight and filled full of holes. He never had a chance.
- One hezrou, fought in a burning village. Did fairly well while the Hezrou chose to stay in melee, until it decided to get serious at half its hit points. It tried a Blasphemy (being unable to determine the Brawler's hit dice) and then hit him with Unholy Blight while he was dazed.
- One stone golem, fought in the alchemic laboratory it was guarding. This one just straight-up outfought the Brawler, who was outmatched and outclassed in his own niche.
There's also a dragon encounter that I didn't run. I felt the poor guy had been shamed enough. In each of these cases the Brawler suffered from an inability to deal with the game's complexity. Vampire spawn start showing up as early as level four!
I think The Russian from that Punisher movie a while back is a good model for a mid-level Brawler. He's not yet punching dragons out, but he can knock you through a wall.
Ok, so I'm looking at defense. The brawler gets light armor rather than Wisdom to AC. This puts him in the same realm as a Strength-based rogue (I'm assuming for the moment that most brawlers are going to be Strength-based, with Dex, Int, Con, and Wis as secondary abilities). I can't see much in this class that tells you not to wear armor. Starting at 4th level, I get AC Bonus, but it's almost certainly going to be less than I can get from a (relatively inexpensive) ACP -0 shield. Like, at 4th level, I grab a buckler, at 8th level, I grab a +1 light shield, etc. Further, given my proficiencies, I see some incentive to grab a +1 ghost touch shield at some point, for bashing incorporeals. I don't like the idea of reduced movement, so I'm going to forget about medium and heavy armor, so I'm looking at elven chain. I don't think I'm likely to break Dex 18 at mid levels, so I don't see much incentive to switch to bracers of armor. So I'm kind of thinking, the well-heeled brawler is going to be running around in enchanted elven chain and carrying a magic shield. Because AC Bonus just isn't much of a bonus, and there's no Wisdom bonus to lose.
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Prince, I'm not surprised a (melee class) brawler would have a hard time against
* 16 level-draining monsters
* four flying opponents
* CR-appropriate monsters with DR 10/good or DR 10/adamantine, which is DR the brawler can't overcome
Especially if he's trying to do it solo. This are not reasonable playtest encounters.
Ok, so here's some Brawler specific feedback.
Right now Brawlers sacrifice a lot of class features to have an effective item economy and this would be solved by somehow letting Brawlers enchant their fists.
If they want enhancement bonuses required to keep up with other classes they must take an amulet of mighty fists. This wouldn't be a problem if they took a "handheld" slot like weapons. Since it takes the neck slot it means a Brawler cannot take an amulet of Natural armor.
So Brawlers must choose between AC or keeping up on damage. This is something that no weapon wielding class must make and really hurts the viability of a high level Brawler.
Please let them
A. Enchant their fists
B. Implement a new weapon they can wield that gives fist damage but can be enchanted.
What does everyone think about expanding the choices for Martial Maneuvers to include style and/or performance feats?
Master Wu! You are mistaken! Forgive this foolhardy keeper of the lore to point out that Martial Maneuvers already include style feats and performance feats - as both of those are also combat feats. The divine developers have foreseen the words that would come from your lips and have seen the wisdom thereof, for how else would your feat suggestion already be included in the ability?
A thought comes to mind: what about the idea that Martial Maneuvers are not limited to adding feats at all? Perhaps there could be a couple of specific other effects that could also be gained by spending Martial Maneuver uses? They would follow the same pattern (i.e. last for 1 minute, you could pick 2 different ones at level 6, you could mix-n-match feats and effects). Simple examples: grant +1 competence bonus to attack and damage for 1 minute; grant +1 competence bonus to saves for 1 minute; grant +4 competence bonus to CMD for 1 minute.
Knockout could be rolled into one of these effects that would become available at level 13.
How about a different look at a way for them to break DR, like say an ability that with each consecutive hit it reduces the DR by X (say 2 or 3 , number up for debate) for say rounds equal to 1/2 brawler level (maybe 1/4?), This gives them a team player aspect, and gives them a unique feel for breaking down enemies DR, but actually brute force and battery.
Eventually it is clever to allow brawlers to enchant gloves (not armoured gloves but normal from leather or something) such a glove will not stack with weapons in the hand.
I.e. I wear a longsword +1 and gloves +2
attack on second level with 2wf dealing 1d8 +full str bonus +1 and 1 d6 offhand + full str bonus +2Or special arm jewelry? Braceletts? I don't know the word.
That's a great idea! Since the book will include feats and such to support these classes, maybe a new item to support the Brawler class
Brawling gloves
2GP
Effect: Acts as fists for all intents and purposes, but can be enhanced in the same way as weapons.
How about a different look at a way for them to break DR, like say an ability that with each consecutive hit it reduces the DR by X (say 2 or 3 , number up for debate) for say rounds equal to 1/2 brawler level (maybe 1/4?), This gives them a team player aspect, and gives them a unique feel for breaking down enemies DR, but actually brute force and battery.
We could travel back in time and rewrite Penetrating Strike to require fighter level 8th instead of 12th and work fine agaisnt DR /-. But actually, the brawler's best tactic against golems is probably just to do so much damage it doesn't matter. I just checked, and clay golem is DR 10/bludgeoning adamantine at CR 8, stone golem is 10/adamantine at CR 11. That's quite doable. Using martial maneuvers to grab Vital Strike for golem-punching seems like a good move, too. At level 6, I could Vital Strike for 1d8+1d8+str, and throw in Power Attack bonuses, and actually do damage straight up that doesn't suck.
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ok here is my issue with the brawler class:
1. maneuvers have been done in a number of archetypes, many do them better.
2. youre losing all your SA monk style abilities for a fighter that acts like a monk... why not just change this to a 1/1 bab archetype for the monk and remove all the SA features as a balance?
3. i still cant gain abilities to overcome the downsides to maneuvers. as an example trip is worthless once you pass level 8. pretty much everything flies, or has a way around being tripped. only npc humanoids with class levels are viable targets for tripping. and sometime you never see one and multiple fights.
4. why not just play a fighter?
5. why not just play a monk?
here is how i would modify this class to be more viable with the maneuver features its given:
blah blah blah when you gain an improved maneuver feat from your Martial Maneuvers class feature you gain an aditional function for that maneuver:
trip: you may now trip flying creatures. you still need to be within reach, but you are able to cause them to fall out of the air with a successful trip combat maneuver roll
disarm: you may hinder a natural weapon instead of targeting a manufactured weapon. you damage the natural weapon so it cannot be used as a weapon, no actual damage is applied to the target but until a dc 15 heal check is made that weapon is unusable ( or maybe for only one round + 1 round for each 5 points you beat its cmd by?)
sunder: you may sunder natural armor in adition to normal armor. for a succesful sunder combat manuver you remove 1 point of natural armor +1 point per 5 you beat the cmd by
grapple: you may remove all sized modifiers (including strength) from the target of your grapple.
OR
you may grapple incorporal beings and beings with concealments as if they did not posses those effects.
you get the idea. none of these things are necessarily supernatural, but they remove a disfunction or weakness of the maneuver in question.
you should then make a "greater" version of this class feature to further improve the class at maneuvers, making this class a less applealing "dip class" and more of a 1-20 full ride class.
just my 2 cents though.
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@RJGrady:
If the brawler hits reliably (which isn't impossible, especially in a party that might feature a bard and somebody to flank with) then picking up the "Hammer the Gap" feat will also work to overcome DR. Perhaps not as much as Vital Strike in one hit, but over 4+ consecutive hits the bonuses add up.
The party aspect in the discussion is somewhat underplayed up to now - a brawler benefits a lot from buffs, generally more so than other classes. A single-weapon fighter might only get +1/+1 to 2 attacks at level 8; but the brawler would get +1/+1 to 4 attacks.
A lot of theoretical discussion focuses on CR-equal opponents (such as a CR 10 to fight a level 10 hero). The CR system is balanced around a party of 4; so instead an appropriate 1v1 fight for a level 10 PC is a CR 7 to 8 monster.
I didn't read all the stuff before, so sorry if I repeat something.
Just 1 thing that made me laugh:
Awesome Blow:[...]If the combat
maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the
brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed
strike[...]
It means, it doesn't matter what weapon you use, it deals damages (yeah, your unarmed strikes deals moar damages anyway, but still). Should be corrected to close weapon or at least melee weapons only I think, because I see some vicious besterd take a culverin for the awesome blow and tell me "Hey, my awesome blow deals 2d8! And I don't lose my ammo!" with a trollface.
Anyway, I like like the idea of swapping feats, but as pointed before, it's a shame you still need to have 13 int for that kind of build, IMO. Kill it (with fire!) and it should be really cooler to play this class.
But I like the idea you get some bonus to CMD on manoeuvers, a hard thing to get for a grappler, while he need it as Hell. If the dodge AC bonus apply to CMD as well (I need to check it), I'm gonna say it's probably the best grappler... In the long term. I didn't do the math, and never really build a grappler, but we discussed that "grapple problem" with my friends before.
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But I like the idea you get some bonus to CMD on manoeuvers, a hard thing to get for a grappler, while he need it as Hell. If the dodge AC bonus apply to CMD as well (I need to check it), I'm gonna say it's probably the best grappler... In the long term. I didn't do the math, and never really build a grappler, but we discussed that "grapple problem" with my friends before.
both the lorewarden and tetori are years beyond this guy when it comes to grappling. maybe even the unarmed fighter, but i havent ever really tried to play one of those.
Eventually it is clever to allow brawlers to enchant gloves (not armoured gloves but normal from leather or something) such a glove will not stack with weapons in the hand.
The problem with that is your unarmed strike is not limited to your hand. It could be a kick. So suddenly you have a magical glove on your hand... but you can designate your unarmed strike as any body part... so do you get the glove bonus on your kick, or a knee or elbow? And it becomes even more vague when you have a race with claws (on the hands), and they want to use the claws and unarmed strikes in the same round, suddenly you have a natural attack on a limb using a limb-specific magic item, and a limb-agnostic unarmed strike that may or may not be using the bonus from a limb-specific magic item, and so on.
How about a different look at a way for them to break DR, like say an ability that with each consecutive hit it reduces the DR by X (say 2 or 3 , number up for debate) for say rounds equal to 1/2 brawler level (maybe 1/4?), This gives them a team player aspect, and gives them a unique feel for breaking down enemies DR, but actually brute force and battery.
The problem with this ability is it takes a while to build up to the necessary DR, so you're dealing poor damage until you reach that threshold. And if your barbarian ally kills that opponent, you have to start over again, with your rounds of buildup wasted. And it's more bookkeeping for a character class that sorta requires a significant bookkeeping investment (in terms of keeping track of feat chains you'll use often).
[Awesome Blow]It means, it doesn't matter what weapon you use, it deals damages (yeah, your unarmed strikes deals moar damages anyway, but still). Should be corrected to close weapon or at least melee weapons only I think
Yeah, it should state "had hit it with a wielded melee weapon..." Good catch. :)
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both the lorewarden and tetori are years beyond this guy when it comes to grappling. maybe even the unarmed fighter, but i havent ever really tried to play one of those.
No comment on the tetori, but the lore warden is way too good. Don't compare any class or archetype to the lore warden, you'll regret it.
I for one would not mind Brawler's Strike to work more like the Warpriest ability, where it can replace the weapon's damage dice with a level based one.
You would appear to be striking your opponent with a fist or close weapon, but in reality you are hitting them wth raw Badassitude.
-j
both the lorewarden and tetori are years beyond this guy when it comes to grappling. maybe even the unarmed fighter, but i havent ever really tried to play one of those.No comment on the tetori, but the lore warden is way too good. Don't compare any class or archetype to the lore warden, you'll regret it.
I'm curious, what is it about the Lore Warden that makes it too good? Is it just the Maneuver Mastery ability, or is it a combination of all the abilities they have?
Always interesting to try and figure out where the designers have the line that separates "balanced" from "too good"
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I'd like to bring up the elephant in the room again... This class is being built to be between Fighter and Monk but... Fighter and Monk (especially Monk) are both notorious for being underpowered. There's a lot of cool ideas here, but none of them overcome the sizable point that this class is /incredibly weak./ It keeps most of the monk's problems, loses some of the Monk's random coolness, and all it's really getting from being a Fighter is a few points to hit and AC.
What this class needs is a serious re-evalution of what Monk and Fighter's main problems are and some features that plug those holes.
Monk's main issues are that it gives up two-handed weapons, shields, and armor, and its class features only bring it back to "slightly worse than" the damage and AC of just using those. It compares poorly to Warrior in many aspects. The one thing it has going for it is a bunch of abilities that help keep it alive- All good saves, spell resistance, self-healing, that sort of thing.
Fighter's issue, which the monk also has, is that combat maneuvers just don't compare to spells after a point, and the job of being the big guy in front doesn't work if you can't reliably get and hold aggro. Fighter also lacks options other than "Hit target with my weapon" as often as not, because while few things are outright immune to combat manuevers, CMD scales insanely with size such that even the best at combat maneuvers need natural twenties to deal with things that have two size categories on them.
So what do I suggest for fixes here?
A) More AC. Adding Wis to AC while in light armor would help a lot, and Swordsage in 3.5 proved that this is fine. Alternatively, letting them gain Con as Natural Armor. The point is, they currently have similar AC to Monks which is just... not enough.
B) Better chance at using maneuvers against larger foes. New special ability: "The Bigger They Are (Ex): The Brawler knows how to undermine the defenses of even the largest creatures. Large and Larger creatures don't gain a size bonus to CMD against a Brawler's Maneuvers and add only half their strength bonus."
By my count, that brings the Tarrasque's CMD down to 43, still very respectable at high levels, but something doable by a high level character. For comparison, its AC is only 40.
C) More damage options. My suggestion, as a feat or a class feature.
"Full Body Press
When you make an unarmed strike, if you have nothing in either hand, you may put your full force into it. Increase the damage dice by one size category, and you may treat your unarmed strike as a two-handed weapon for all purposes. You may not use this ability in conjuncture with a Flurry."
This allows them to push for Power Attack and gives them a better option for a standard action attack.
D) Combat Expertise. Swashbuckler has that thing where it doesn't need Int for Combat Expertise. Brawler needs that, too, along with any feat with Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. We've got a guy here whose whole schtick is Maneuvers, but he doesn't actually GET any if he doesn't have at least 13 intelligence, an ability score that none of his class features actually use. (That said: Maybe give it Int to AC, if this is supposed to be a studied, Batman-esque Martial Artist rather than the spiritual Monk.) The Monk's ability to ignore Combat Expertise and still have Maneuvers is one of the best things it has going for it.
E) Skills. One of fighter's main problems is that if he doesn't have anything to hit, he doesn't have anything to DO. Stealth would be a great skill for this guy (see: Batman-esque), as would Knowledge (Local) and Heal, the two skills used to know human anatomy. Perform would be great as well, giving us the idea of professional fighter of some sort.
F) Evasion, a good will save, and/or upping Brawler to a d12 hit die would go a long way toward helping this guy be the guy who stands in front and doesn't go down. With trip and grapple he can actually monopolize enemy attention pretty well (see comment C), so this could be made into a guy who can actually tank, something fighters and monks have been hoping to do and failing to do since forever.
So, just to show what I think is a more "appropriate" power level, here's a link to the Martial Artist class me and my friends made for an E6 game. It's eternally a work in progress, but it's ideas.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RXNkNzZBhOLVfrZhgmGH5jsy1351q8AoA4VwA01 yHxw/edit#
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Prince, I'm not surprised a (melee class) brawler would have a hard time against
* 16 level-draining monsters
* four flying opponents
* CR-appropriate monsters with DR 10/good or DR 10/adamantine, which is DR the brawler can't overcomeEspecially if he's trying to do it solo. This are not reasonable playtest encounters.
There's method to my madness, I promise you. The Brawler isn't supposed to win all or even most of these encounters - after all, they're for 4+ characters of that level!
These tests were selected and used by me (and continue to be used by me) to see about degrees of contribution. What options does this character have in this fight? How much did those options cost them to get? How effective are they? Frankly a well-designed class should fail at most of these - but after putting up a hell of a fight.
Brawler did best against the Hezrou until it remembered it had SLAs and against the vampire spawn. The latter should've been a 'gimmie' encounter, given how weak each individual spawn is. Based on what I'm seeing, Brawler has trouble doing its job. I'm certain I could run more encounters with, say, dire animals or other 'brute' creatures and still find Brawler struggling.
Conversely, Arcanist mops the floor with all four normal encounters and then proceeds to solo the dragon, albeit with much effort. This is also a bug.
No comment on the tetori, but the lore warden is way too good. Don't compare any class or archetype to the lore warden, you'll regret it.
As far as this goes, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. Lore Warden has deep, striking weaknesses, especially against the classical and fantastic enemies that characterize Pathfinder (demons, manticores, dire animals).
Eventually it is clever to allow brawlers to enchant gloves (not armoured gloves but normal from leather or something) such a glove will not stack with weapons in the hand.The problem with that is your unarmed strike is not limited to your hand. It could be a kick. So suddenly you have a magical glove on your hand... but you can designate your unarmed strike as any body part... so do you get the glove bonus on your kick, or a knee or elbow? And it becomes even more vague when you have a race with claws (on the hands), and they want to use the claws and unarmed strikes in the same round, suddenly you have a natural attack on a limb using a limb-specific magic item, and a limb-agnostic unarmed strike that may or may not be using the bonus from a limb-specific magic item, and so on.
How about a different look at a way for them to break DR, like say an ability that with each consecutive hit it reduces the DR by X (say 2 or 3 , number up for debate) for say rounds equal to 1/2 brawler level (maybe 1/4?), This gives them a team player aspect, and gives them a unique feel for breaking down enemies DR, but actually brute force and battery.The problem with this ability is it takes a while to build up to the necessary DR, so you're dealing poor damage until you reach that threshold. And if your barbarian ally kills that opponent, you have to start over again, with your rounds of buildup wasted. And it's more bookkeeping for a character class that sorta requires a significant bookkeeping investment (in terms of keeping track of feat chains you'll use often).
[Awesome Blow]It means, it doesn't matter what weapon you use, it deals damages (yeah, your unarmed strikes deals moar damages anyway, but still). Should be corrected to close weapon or at least melee weapons only I thinkYeah, it should state "had hit it with a wielded melee weapon..." Good catch. :)
Yes, that is an issue I agree, but I think it's a smaller issue than the Brawler having no access to magical enhancement bonuses as a weapon slot as opposed to a wondrous item slot.
You pick Brawler and either choose to be behind on AC or behind on attack/damage/DR if you want to fight unarmed. (Amulet of Mighty Fists compared to Amulet of Natural armor)
These gloves at least give an option for the majority of races and I'm sure the design team can come up with a better idea than I can.
In short: Brawler needs some way to make his unarmed strikes enhanced by using a weapon slot, not a wondrous item slot.
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I don't want to create a digression about the lore warden, so I'll just say:
* It gives up bravery +1 (which is worse than Iron Will, which is +2 on all will saves instead of just +1 vs. fear) for Combat Expertise (a useful full feat, and it doesn't even need to meet the prereqs)
* It gives up armor training 1 (which reduces ACP by 1 and increases max Dex by 1, which is mostly irrelevant because the lore warden doesn't use medium or heavy armor, so it's ACP/max Dex aren't much of a limitation) for a +2 bonus *all* CMB checks and to CMD, scaling up eventually to +8 (compare to any Improved maneuver feat, which give a +2 to *one* maneuver and negates the AOO... so this is basically half of *every* improved maneuver feat, but scales up the bonus to include the Greater maneuver plusses as well)
* It gives up armor training 2 (see above) for the ability to spend a standard action to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against a specific creature, so you're giving up a minor defensive ability for an offensive ability (a no-no)
* it gives up armor training 3 (see above), and gets the ability to make a skill check to turn a crit into a normal attack once per round (note that the fortification armor ability only gives a 75% chance of doing this and has a +5 plus value)
* its standard-action ability (above) improves to a swift action, in exchange for giving up armor training 4 (see above)
* it gives up armor mastery (this class is about not getting hit, so the DR 5/— isn't very important) at level 19 to get the ability to automatically confirm a crit once per round (compared to the fighter level 20 capstone, which does this but for only one type of weapon).
That very first CMB/CMD ability that makes the lore warden too good. All the other swaps are just extra gravy on a moist slab of turkey.
Sean, how do you feel about a 'clustered shot' mechanic for Brawer's to replace the current Brawler's strike?
I know that, currently, the Bralwer's Strike starts at 5th, and increases at 9th, 12th, and 17th.
I changed the 'leveling' mechanic from 5/9/12/17 to 5/9/13/17 because it's on a 'set forumla' where as the previous one wasn't. Also, at level 12, the Brawler gains an increase in BAB, an increase in saves, and an increase in unarmed strike damage, in addition to being able to use martial maneuvers as an immediate action.
At 13th level, the Bralwer gains an increase in BAB, a +1 ac bonus, and knockout, so I think they would kind of even out.
Although, I would not be opposed to dropping knockout to 12th level, that way it could be a kind of 'capstone' for PFS brawlers.
I don't want to create a digression about the lore warden, so I'll just say:
* It gives up bravery +1 (which is worse than Iron Will, which is +2 on all will saves instead of just +1 vs. fear) for Combat Expertise (a useful full feat, and it doesn't even need to meet the prereqs)
* It gives up armor training 1 (which reduces ACP by 1 and increases max Dex by 1, which is mostly irrelevant because the lore warden doesn't use medium or heavy armor, so it's ACP/max Dex aren't much of a limitation) for a +2 bonus *all* CMB checks and to CMD, scaling up eventually to +8 (compare to any Improved maneuver feat, which give a +2 to *one* maneuver and negates the AOO... so this is basically half of *every* improved maneuver feat, but scales up the bonus to include the Greater maneuver plusses as well)
* It gives up armor training 2 (see above) for the ability to spend a standard action to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against a specific creature, so you're giving up a minor defensive ability for an offensive ability (a no-no)
* it gives up armor training 3 (see above), and gets the ability to make a skill check to turn a crit into a normal attack once per round (note that the fortification armor ability only gives a 75% chance of doing this and has a +5 plus value)
* its standard-action ability (above) improves to a swift action, in exchange for giving up armor training 4 (see above)
* it gives up armor mastery (this class is about not getting hit, so the DR 5/— isn't very important) at level 19 to get the ability to automatically confirm a crit once per round (compared to the fighter level 20 capstone, which does this but for only one type of weapon).
That very first CMB/CMD ability that makes the lore warden too good. All the other swaps are just extra gravy on a moist slab of turkey.
Thanks! That's a pretty solid analysis. I think where people will disagree with you is that they're comparing the Lore Warden versus other classes, whereas you're referring to the Lore Warden in regards to the archetype granting much more to the fighter than what it takes away.
Sounds pretty much like what Amulet of Mighty Fists already does. As Linkara would say, "It's magic, I don't have to explain it!"
Right... but the other poster wants an amulet of mighty fists that's a weapon slot, or a hand slot.
Sean, how do you feel about a 'clustered shot' mechanic for Brawer's to replace the current Brawler's strike?
I think the brawler's strike as written accomplishes what we want it to do.
Sean, how do you feel about a 'clustered shot' mechanic for Brawer's to replace the current Brawler's strike?I think the brawler's strike as written accomplishes what we want it to do.
Mechanics-wise, certainly. I think one of the biggest issues that anyone has with the class is that - flavour-wise - it could do with a boost. Copying the Monk's Ki Strike ability, while it achieves what the designers want with the class doesn't make it stand out as being very interesting.
Tels' Clustered Strikes ability - while treading similar ground that you've already covered with the current ability - manages to do it in a way that makes it unique for the Brawler, so people don't feel like: "Oh, I'm playing a fighter/monk," but: "Cool, I'm playing a Brawler!"
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I don't want to create a digression about the lore warden, so I'll just say:
* It gives up bravery +1 (which is worse than Iron Will, which is +2 on all will saves instead of just +1 vs. fear) for Combat Expertise (a useful full feat, and it doesn't even need to meet the prereqs)
* It gives up armor training 1 (which reduces ACP by 1 and increases max Dex by 1, which is mostly irrelevant because the lore warden doesn't use medium or heavy armor, so it's ACP/max Dex aren't much of a limitation) for a +2 bonus *all* CMB checks and to CMD, scaling up eventually to +8 (compare to any Improved maneuver feat, which give a +2 to *one* maneuver and negates the AOO... so this is basically half of *every* improved maneuver feat, but scales up the bonus to include the Greater maneuver plusses as well)
* It gives up armor training 2 (see above) for the ability to spend a standard action to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against a specific creature, so you're giving up a minor defensive ability for an offensive ability (a no-no)
* it gives up armor training 3 (see above), and gets the ability to make a skill check to turn a crit into a normal attack once per round (note that the fortification armor ability only gives a 75% chance of doing this and has a +5 plus value)
* its standard-action ability (above) improves to a swift action, in exchange for giving up armor training 4 (see above)
* it gives up armor mastery (this class is about not getting hit, so the DR 5/— isn't very important) at level 19 to get the ability to automatically confirm a crit once per round (compared to the fighter level 20 capstone, which does this but for only one type of weapon).
That very first CMB/CMD ability that makes the lore warden too good. All the other swaps are just extra gravy on a moist slab of turkey.
...Tell ya what, if you get five minutes of free time open up a thread for this or sling me a PM, 'cause I don't wanna cause a digression either but there's some serious conversing on this subject that needs to occur.
My only problem with Brawler's Strike as written is that I wish it could be flavored such that it didn't need to be an Su ability. It feels really, really out of place at Su.
How about something like "A Brawler's unarmed strikes ignore damage reduction equal to half his level (rounded down)" and let him not worry about what sort of DR the target has?
My only problem with Brawler's Strike as written is that I wish it could be flavored such that it didn't need to be an Su ability. It feels really, really out of place at Su.
How about something like "A Brawler's unarmed strikes ignore damage reduction equal to half his level (rounded down)" and let him not worry about what sort of DR the target has?
You're basically talking about turning Iron Fist into Hercules, and then saying that's less supernatural.
Think of a high level Brawler as an exemplar of mystic badassitude, in the way a Paladin embodies honor.
My only problem with Brawler's Strike as written is that I wish it could be flavored such that it didn't need to be an Su ability. It feels really, really out of place at Su.
How about something like "A Brawler's unarmed strikes ignore damage reduction equal to half his level (rounded down)" and let him not worry about what sort of DR the target has?
It doesn't need to be Su, it could be Ex. There's very, very little difference between (Ex) DR and (Su) DR.
does awesome blow count as a combat maneuver for qualifying for the bonus gained from maneuver training?
Yes, it does (hmm, and awesome blow also needs to explicitly say "awesome blow combat maneuver" like it did in playtest1 and like it does in the Awesome Blow monster feat description.
My only problem with Brawler's Strike as written is that I wish it could be flavored such that it didn't need to be an Su ability. It feels really, really out of place at Su.
How about something like "A Brawler's unarmed strikes ignore damage reduction equal to half his level (rounded down)" and let him not worry about what sort of DR the target has?
We've brought up that concept before.
It causes additional bookeeping. You have to do additional math in your head for the ability like that. I'm not saying its a great reason, but its a reason.I am all for the Brutal Blows/Clustered Shots method. As it stands, the Brawler depends on an Amulet for penetrating alignment DR at a reasonable time and isn't going to punch through Adamantine pretty much ever.
Improved Awesome Blow is interesting, but it'll still get never used against a lot of foes without some sort of bonus.
Math fun.
A 20th Level Brawler with a 30 Str (Fairly reasonable sorta) has a +30 to his CMB check. Its impossible for him to succeed against most of the CR 20 creatures. The only one I found with a CMD lower than 50 was the Eremite Kyton. Which has a 49. The Grim Reaper is large so it really has a CMD of 55 against him.
So....cool? I got a capstone I can't make use of except on a 20 since CMB checks are still attack rolls that auto succeed on 20s.
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I would have a problem with an Extraordinary (non-magical) ability granting 'magical' benefits. I can't think of a single ability that grants 'magical DR penetration' that isn't inherently magical in nature (Supernatural instead of Extraordinary).
It may just be the loud minority here, but I seems that Ki Strike is an issue that keeps coming up with the Brawler.
Instead of giving the Brawler an Ex ability to penetrate DR (like penetrates half his level in DR, or my Brutal Blows ability, or even just granting the Penetrating Strike feats), you guys seem pretty intent on giving the non-mystical guy, a magical ability to penetrate DR.
Bypassing DR isn't a magical benefit. DR doesn't have to have a magic source. Adamantine armor gives you DR, and it's not inherently magical; bypassing DR/adamantine requires no magic whatsoever. You can make similar arguments for other material-based DR.
And magical DR goes away in an antimagic field, so it doesn't matter if the brawler's ability to penetrate magical DR is (Su) or (Ex):
* If the brawler's ability is (Su), it goes away in antimagic but so does the DR so you can attack normally.
* If the brawler's ability is (Ex), the DR goes away in antimagic anyway so you can attack normally.
A 20th Level Brawler with a 30 Str (Fairly reasonable sorta) has a +30 to his CMB check. Its impossible for him to succeed against most of the CR 20 creatures. The only one I found with a CMD lower than 50 was the Eremite Kyton. Which has a 49. The Grim Reaper is large so it really has a CMD of 55 against him.
I suspect the brawler will also be fighting lower-CR foes, even when she's at level 20. So "I can't make use of this" is hyperbole and inaccurate. "Rarely works on the boss encounter" is accurate... and something I'm comfortable with.
Bypassing DR isn't a magical benefit. DR doesn't have to have a magic source. Adamantine armor gives you DR, and it's not inherently magical; bypassing DR/adamantine requires no magic whatsoever. You can make similar arguments for other material-based DR.
And magical DR goes away in an antimagic field, so it doesn't matter if the brawler's ability to penetrate magical DR is (Su) or (Ex):
* If the brawler's ability is (Su), it goes away in antimagic but so does the DR so you can attack normally.
* If the brawler's ability is (Ex), the DR goes away in antimagic anyway so you can attack normally.
I think we're arguing for two different things here. You're saying mechanically it's functional. That's correct. There is nothing mechanically wrong with how the Brawler's DR penetration currently works. Let's move past that.
However, from a flavour standpoint, it is odd that a non-magical guy whose shtick is punching things and being martially diverse has an ability where he makes his fists magical using... nothing.
Ki Strike makes sense for a Monk, who is using the power of the mystical energies he taps from inside himself to enhance his fists so that they can penetrate magical protections.
The Brawler is a guy who beats things up. He's a dude from the UFC. He's an average - if physically and martially gifted - guy. How does he know how to magically enhance his fists?
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How does he know how to magically enhance his fists?
"Well, this one day my horse decided to swallow some nails... and well, let's just say I did what I had to do."
Sounds pretty much like what Amulet of Mighty Fists already does. As Linkara would say, "It's magic, I don't have to explain it!"Right... but the other poster wants an amulet of mighty fists that's a weapon slot, or a hand slot.
Sean, how do you feel about a 'clustered shot' mechanic for Brawer's to replace the current Brawler's strike?I think the brawler's strike as written accomplishes what we want it to do.
This exactly. I would even be ok with it having the same exact text and cost as amulet of mighty fists, just having it take up the weapon slot.
Alternatively you could let Brawlers wear to neck slot items at levels 5 or higher (to prevent dipping)
I really don't think it's too much to ask for Brawlers to have a magical weapon slot for their melee enhancement bonus like every other class in the game. It sucks to have to choose being behind the party in either AC or damage and simply because I can't enchant my weapon.
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A 20th Level Brawler with a 30 Str (Fairly reasonable sorta) has a +30 to his CMB check. Its impossible for him to succeed against most of the CR 20 creatures. The only one I found with a CMD lower than 50 was the Eremite Kyton. Which has a 49. The Grim Reaper is large so it really has a CMD of 55 against him.I suspect the brawler will also be fighting lower-CR foes, even when she's at level 20. So "I can't make use of this" is hyperbole and inaccurate. "Rarely works on the boss encounter" is accurate... and something I'm comfortable with.
There was only 1 CR 19 Medium creature I could find. His CMD is 49, Immolation Demon. All the other ones are large which puts their effective CMD in the 50s.
Going down to CR 18 we have the Erkling and Norn as potential creatures for Awesome Blowing at a reasonable chance. Erkling are incredibly rare and are solitary. Even in other groups of organization there is but a single one. A trio of Norns is a possibility I suppose but that is a strange game where a party of 20th level Adventurers goes to lay the smack down on some LN Norns. The Shaggy Demodand is medium but has a crazy 51 CMD.
So against custom foes your DM makes or NPCs I suppose it would work. Or if theres an insane number of enemies but in that case what the Brawler does is negligible anyways since the casters will be laying down huge aoe effects.
A party of 4 fighting a CR20 encounter at 20th level is not a boss fight. Its an average encounter. APL-1 is easy and the Brawler still has close to no chance. APL-2 is a mop up.