Name one other class that suddenly becomes completely different at level 20 the way the Arcanist does and I may change my mind,
Note: I agree the capstone should be changed.
But off the top of my head, Barbarians gaining tireless rage a bit before that allows rage cycling which, while lesser, is comparable.
Summoners basically double in power for 20 minutes/day (which is usually all you need).
Druids get at-will Wild Shape.
This would probably be the 4th example that significant and perhaps the most extreme.
Fists impressions: Overall a LOT more interesting than before.
Of the minor exploits, counterspell and spell tinker are the absolute winners, but also seem very well written and not actually unbalanced.
Can you repeatedly tinker with the same spell? Can you repeatedly tinker with the same facet of the spell - say duration? If so, a 10th level tinkerer can reduce duration of a spell by a factor of 2^30, rendering any spell with a duration inert in a very, very short time. Basically a costly but automatic dispel magic.
Does Disrupt spell have a maximum caster level bonus on the dispel check of +10, like dispel magic does?
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Would anyone else be interested in seeing a version or archetype of this class with no spell casting and a complete emphasis on the pool styled like the warlock?
I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
All of these are already covered by metamagic though. Respectively: Elemental spell, reach spell, widen spell/selective spell, and... OK the reshape one is a new, but I don't think that's really workable since there isn't really enough standardization in place.
There's already exploits to take and apply metamagic feats so, I think you're set already here.
Apparently, Panache is too good to increase with level (or even get a +3), but Arcane Pool, a much more powerful resource of a much more powerful class, scaling with level is okay.
I know this is the arcanist thread, not the swashbuckler thread, but I think it's worth mentioning that it is MUCH easier for a swasbuckler to regain her panache then for a gunslinger to regain her grit. The conditions are exactly the same, but melee weapons have a much more diverse critical threat range than firearms do. The fact that the swashbuckler gets Improved Critical for free three levels earlier than any other character in the game is pretty sweet, too.
A swashbuckler who is heavily concerned with regenerating panache is going to carry a rapier or a similar 18-20 crit weapon around with her and get that weapon's threat range to 15-20 by any means necessary. That's a 30% chance per attack that you're regenerating panache at Level 5 and beyond.
If your critical hit kills the target, then congratulations. You just got 2 panache back instead of one.
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Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.
Interesting interpretation. The wording could certainly be clearer. If your understanding is correct, then this ability is fine as is.
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But that is not how it works at present. That being our reality, do you believe it fair, balanced, or otherwise acceptable that Arcanist will be the only class it does work that way for?I think it is better for one class to be able to do it than no classes, yes.
But I have to say, if the later explanation of this ability (that it costs a standard and an immediate action), would make it utterly useless and would be severely disappointing to me.
Perhaps. Perhaps it would also go a long way towards making magic largely ineffective outside of direct damage, instantaneous, and permanent effects, however.I am totally ok with that. :)
Furthermore, the last thing such an ability deserves to be on is a full blooded arcane caster.This, I agree with, but I'd rather it be on some class than no class.
Ideally, it'd be on a Spellthief rework of some kind, but this is better than nothing.
I believe we will just have to agree to disagree, then. We appear to have fundamentally different views on these matters.
Immediate Action counterspelling for one class of caster would be grossly imbalanced for magic users other than that one class. If we made it immediate across the board, then most casters would simply neutralize each other in a given encounter in a very boring fashion.
I personally loathe blanket immunities. Spending a point to make another saving throw, or spending a point to gain a bonus before the roll is made? That would be more acceptable to me.
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Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.Interesting interpretation. The wording could certainly be clearer. If your understanding is correct, then this ability is fine as is.
I don't agree with brad2411 - I feel counterpelling uses only the immediate action. Considering you need to both ID the spell and then win a dispel check, I think the ability is ok as is.
Very nice redesign. Haven't playtested this version yet, but I will be this weekend. Here are a few things that jump out at me about this build
Spells/Spells per day - Didn't see the need to reduce Arcanist's spells per day since they already got the same spells per day as a specialist Wizard and less spells per day than a Sorcerer. Now they get less spells per day than both specialist Wizards and Socerers. I guess this is acceptable since they gained new abilities.
Arcane Reservoir - This is a great idea and I love the concept! The fact that it is based on level rather than an ability sort of bothers me however. Perhaps make it based on Int or Cha like School Powers or Bloodlines? Something like "An Arcanist begins each day with a number of points for her arcane reservoir equal to 1/2 her level + her Int/Cha modifier". Or make it more like school powers/bloodlines and say they get 3 + Int/Cha modifier regardless of level. Cha is still pretty much a dump stat so making Arcane Reservoir based on Cha would deter dumping Cha down to 7.
Arcane Exploits - Where's the Arcane Bond Exploit? I'd pay two exploits to get that :). Anyway, the ranged touch attack exploits seem rather weak and I can't see myself taking any of these, except maybe the force one because it doesn't require a touch attack and allow a save for half damage. Perhaps if the saves were knocked off, these abilities would be a little more enticing.
Capstone ability is meh. I'm not all too excited about this ability. You would get only two or three uses of it then not only would you be out of uses of this ability, you would be out of arcane reservoir points as well.
Re: The Capstone power. Doesn't it say you can only do it once per spell? So, in the Wish example on page 6, you could only spend points once to cast an extra Wish spell.
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Re: The Capstone power. Doesn't it say you can only do it once per spell? So, in the Wish example on page 6, you could only spend points once to cast an extra Wish spell.
No, it does not.
Magical Supremacy (Su): At 20th level, the arcanist learns to easily convert her arcane reservoir into spells and back again. She can cast any spell she has prepared directly from her arcane reservoir, instead of expending a spell slot, by expending a number of points from her arcane reservoir equal to the level of the spell to be cast. When she casts a spell in this fashion, she treats her caster level as 2 higher than normal, and the DC of any saving throws associated with the spell increase by 2. She cannot further expend points from her arcane reservoir to enhance a spell cast in this way.
The part you are likely reading as once per spell is the last line, which says you can't use your other exploits or other abilities to use the arcane reservoir to enhance the spell you use this way.
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I don't agree with brad2411 - I feel counterpelling uses only the immediate action. Considering you need to both ID the spell and then win a dispel check, I think the ability is ok as is.
Agreed. The reason why almost no one uses counterspell now is it requires you to give up your action (which might be wasted if your opponent doesn't do as expected), then make the spell identification check, and finally make the dispel check. Usually, there is better things you with your action so it rarely sees play. Converting the standard action to an immediate actually makes counterspelling useful. Given that it still involves making two checks along with burning an arcane point and a spell slot I think it is balanced.
My only issue with the class right now is that it seems a bit too easy to recover arcane points. Consume magic items in particular seems problematic. A high level arcanist could afford to carry around a bundle of 2nd level wands effectively granting an unlimited number of points. I'm not a fan of using gold cost to balance a core class mechanic.
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I don't agree with brad2411 - I feel counterpelling uses only the immediate action. Considering you need to both ID the spell and then win a dispel check, I think the ability is ok as is.Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.Interesting interpretation. The wording could certainly be clearer. If your understanding is correct, then this ability is fine as is.
Yeah, Jason Didn't say that it uses standard and immediate. He just restated the standard, core Rulebook statement that Supernatural abilities take a standard action unless they say otherwise. Counterspell says otherwise, so takes an immediate
Ah, I see. Then I totally agree that the capstone power it too powerful as is. You can sacrifice all your spells and then recast them with +2 DC or spell level. Perhaps doubling the cost to recall a spell or limiting the number of times this can be done would be a good solution. But increasing the cost, IMO would still be too powerful.
Cha is still pretty much a dump stat so making Arcane Reservoir based on Cha would deter dumping Cha down to 7.
That seems like a good idea to me.
Where's the Arcane Bond Exploit? I'd pay two exploits to get that :).
At the least, the class should be able to get a familiar. A little buddy to help you with all of that spell hacking that you're going to be doing. :-)
If a magus is willing to grab a familiar, so should an arcanist.
Capstone ability is meh. I'm not all too excited about this ability. You would get only two or three uses of it then not only would you be out of uses of this ability, you would be out of arcane reservoir points as well.
I think its a good capstone, but its an ability that would be awesome to get at lower levels. I stand by modeling the ability after spell recall; give a weaker version of the capstone before 20th level and pull an improved version as the capstone.
Also, I liked the "fatigued if your blood focus runs dry" aspect of the original version. If that's in the rewrite, I missed it, but having a chance to become fatigued every time you "hack" magic could be another way to limit the class.
ARCANIST: Oh man, I just countered that spell without getting a chance to prepare. I'm feeling pretty wiped out by that.
I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
As noted in the Jason Bulmahn's revision post, this is not a complete list of Exploits, just a sampling.
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Yeah, Jason Didn't say that it uses standard and immediate. He just restated the standard, core Rulebook statement that Supernatural abilities take a standard action unless they say otherwise. Counterspell says otherwise, so takes an immediateI don't agree with brad2411 - I feel counterpelling uses only the immediate action. Considering you need to both ID the spell and then win a dispel check, I think the ability is ok as is.Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.Interesting interpretation. The wording could certainly be clearer. If your understanding is correct, then this ability is fine as is.
This was my reading of the ability as well.
This class is getting really interesting. The reservoir is great, and as it is, well balanced. My wishlist for the class:
-Exploits for dispelling (absorbing) stationary magic effects (like a wall of force).
-Exploits for creating temporary magic items/ improving existing ones.
-Exploits creating psi-like magic effects (long duration telekinesis, telepathy, self healing).
-Exploits that manipulate magic further (stealing/restoring someone's prepared spells/slots,absorbing/refueling magic traps and items, casting in/restoring dead magic zones, removing one's casting)
-An archetype with reservoir and exploits for the magus.
-Some forbidden spells that require expending reservoir points.
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This was my reading of the ability as well.Yeah, Jason Didn't say that it uses standard and immediate. He just restated the standard, core Rulebook statement that Supernatural abilities take a standard action unless they say otherwise. Counterspell says otherwise, so takes an immediateI don't agree with brad2411 - I feel counterpelling uses only the immediate action. Considering you need to both ID the spell and then win a dispel check, I think the ability is ok as is.Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.Interesting interpretation. The wording could certainly be clearer. If your understanding is correct, then this ability is fine as is.
Well if it is that way it is way to powerful of an ability. It lets you counter spell as an immediate action which potentially lets you cast 2 spells in a level. Also makes the improved counter spell feat completely obsolete.
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Immediate Action counterspelling should already be how it works, and all of the caster level bonuses you're talking about are just as easily and commonly employed by the caster, so it's not as big a deal as you're suggesting.
With this as a class ability, it is possible that other casters will get some sort of feat based immediate action counterspelling. Once the genie is out of the bottle, maybe everyone will get it.
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This is not a class for a familiar. Wizards are scholars, these guys are engineers... Scholars have cats and dogs, engineers have... gold fish maybe? :o
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Wizards and sorcerers can both get familiars and always could even in 3.5. If this class is a cross between wizard and sorcerer it only makes sense to also have the ability to acquire a familiar.
I think personally my difficulty with this revision is that it isn't a Hybrid. I'm very happy for all the other new Hybrids to also not be hybrids, and to move further away from their parent class. But with this revision, the Arcanist stands out like a sore thumb. I'd be very happy for similar revisions for other hybrids, though apart from the Warpriest I'm pretty happy with all the others in the APG playtest guide (still clamoring for a Spell-less Hunter with beefed up beast or animal companion).
Apart from that, having created the Direlock that can Counterspell as an immediate action after first succesfully identifying the spell with Spellcraft, and stores the spell-energy to be used as a buff or to cast her own spells, yeah, I like this Arcanist. ;)
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Yeah, cha needs to be integral to the class working somehow otherwise it's too powerful for a one stat class.
*Sniffles loudly*
*Coughs up phlegm*
I think there's something goin' around.
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I can't help feeling that BBEG arcanists are going to get more use out of the counterspelling exploit than PCs will. Because NPC casters tend to be higher level than PCs to begin with, the arcanist's delayed spell access means the NPCs will typically be tossing out higher level spells than the arcanist can cast, and thus higher level ones than they can counter. I've already run into that in one playtest encounter...
Now this is looking very, VERY interesting! Certainly much better than before!
The simple change in spell slots made the choice between Wizard, Arcanist or Sorcerer very balanced. Each class has its own pros and cons. That's a very good thing.
Furthermore, the exploits sound balanced, flavorful AND useful!
Way to go, team Paizo! Can't wait to playtest it!
Anyways, two things:
1 - "A spell prepared with a metamagic feat cannot be further modified with another metamagic feat (unless she has the metamixing exploit)" would probably read better as "A spell prepared with metamagic feats cannot be further modified with other metamagic feats at the time of casting (unless the Arcanist has the metamixing exploit)", or something to that effect.
2 - It isn't clear if the Arcanist needs to prepare spells every day. The way it stands now, I'd say that the Arcanist only needs to prepare spells when she wants to change her loadout, or to take advantage of new spell slots due to leveling up. That's fine by me, but I'm not sure that's your intent. A simple clarification, saying "The Arcanist must prepare spells every day." or "The Arcanist doesn't need to prepare spells each day. If she doesn't, she can still cast the spells she had prepared beforehand." would be nice.
for those the worry about the spellcasting comparatively to the parent classes. There is currently no mechanic for increasing spells prepared, not even from high ability scores. This is a big deal. at least when a sorcerer increases it's spells known, it increases it's options every day. gaining spells known for the arcanist just means more options to pick from the following day, at the expense of preparing something else.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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I can't help feeling that BBEG arcanists are going to get more use out of the counterspelling exploit than PCs will. Because NPC casters tend to be higher level than PCs to begin with, the arcanist's delayed spell access means the NPCs will typically be tossing out higher level spells than the arcanist can cast, and thus higher level ones than they can counter. I've already run into that in one playtest encounter...
Bingo. That's what I was thinking about when evaluating the ability. One of the reasons BBEG spell casters are scary is that they are routinely a few levels higher than the PCs. Can't counter something if you don't have a high-enough-level spell slot. And, you have to make a caster level check against someone who is a higher-level caster than you. Not exactly the OP.
Still good against spell-casting minions, though.
You can still counterspell with Dispel Magic the old fashioned way. I don't see this as a problem. It would be a problem if you could counter spells of higher level with your low level spell slots.
(still clamoring for a Spell-less Hunter with beefed up beast or animal companion)
What you want already exists. Make a Ranger and pick these 3 archetypes: Beastmaster, Skirmisher, Infliltrator. You can have all 3 of these archetypes at the same time and they will be very close to what you seem to be looking for.
Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her arcane reservoir to attempt to counterspell a spell as it is being cast. The arcanist must identify the spell being cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the arcanist must make dispel check as if using dispel magic. If the spell being countered is one that the arcanist has prepared, she receives a +5 bonus on the dispel check.
Yes.
Yes.YES!
This is what I've always wanted. This may be the only class I ever play again.
It's like Paizo got me this for Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever. I honestly haven't even read any of the other abilities and I don't even care if they get any.
Only one question: How does this ability interact with actually using dispel magic? It looks like it wouldn't work if the spell were a higher level. But since you make a dispel check anyway, I suppose it makes no difference.
Do not get rid of this ability. I cannot overstate how excited I am.
Oh also, while I'm here. How does the arcanist interact with abilities like Preferred Spell and Greater Spell Specialization? WOuld these feats enable a "cheat" allowing the arcanist to essentially prepare more spells? (Hardly a cheat due to the feat investment)
EDIT:
Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see; this is in place of 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke an attack of opportunity for the movement caused by this ability, but any other movement provokes as normal.
WOW. Give me the ability to take Fast Study and you've ensured that I won't want to play another caster ever again. And I don't mean in a "broke" way, but this class is doing all the things I've wanted to do with a wizard.
Potent Magic may be too good. I'll get back to you after play testing.
Best Thanksgivukkah ever.
I can already see an Artificer archetype and an exploit that gives item creation feats
Yes.
Yes.
YES!
Lol... My reaction while checking the Arcanist revision was more like
wow.
WOW.
But i absolutely agree... Now the arcanist is a REALLY catching, interesting concept, all is left to do is checking its balance and adjusting it, if needed.
I agree--I'm pretty anti-magic in general, I've never liked prepared, vancian magic, and I kind of hated the concept of the Sorcerer bloodline stuff, so this class is hitting all the right flavor for me.
Some of it (potent magic, the capstone) is too strong, but, well, I never imagined I'd be excited by a full caster, and the rest of the classes were so, well, just kind of blah and disappointing that I never expected to like any of them this much (I'd be willing to play an Investigator or Shaman if I needed to, but nothing really drew me).
Magic hacker is such a great concept. Perfect choice.
This looks totally rad - the Arcanist seems to fit my preferred spellcasting play style without negating the Wizard and the Sorcerer. I can't wait to roll one up and try it out :)
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Reservoir should be 3 + CHA mod uses per day, or 1/2 level + CHA mod (which I prefer).
Add an exploit to gain a familiar.
As of right now the exploits are pretty solid, I imagine this is one of those things that can be expanded upon in later books and supplements.
Also, these guys I believe will start seeing popularity should the CHA fixes actually come into place.
EDITED: 1/2 level in place of 1/3, to match paladin's lay on hands mechanic.
Reservoir should be 3 + CHA mod uses per day, or 1/3 level + CHA mod (which I prefer).
Add an exploit to gain a familiar.
As of right now the exploits are pretty solid, I imagine this is one of those things that can be expanded upon in later books and supplements.
Also, these guys I believe will start seeing popularity should the CHA fixes actually come into place.
yeah i literally thought of them too.
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Ok, so there's a few things that do this that I missed or forgotten, but they are either once per day, for a particular school of magic, or have a drawback. There is no blanket +1 - +2 the caster level for all spells without a drawback. As pointed out earlier, there is a way to use this ability to cast low level spells at a ridiculously high caster level.
But as it stands right now, I still think this class overshadows both the sorcerer and the wizard in its casting style and that the exploits are too good. And yes I will go as far to accuse those who say this class looks amazing and that they cant wait to play it or those that say this class isn't unbalanced or overpowered are either power gamers, munchkins, and/or those that eat their cake and want it too.
The abilities don't sit within the realms of what casters can do at the moment and giving a class that gets the best of both worlds as well as new abilities that go outside the range of what can be done within the game's mechanics right now is not good design and is a problem.
