Arcanist Discussion - Revised

[Drachasor]

redward wrote:

Exactly. It's for the times when eating your Scroll of Break Enchantment is worth it so you can Disrupt the enemy's Anti-life shell and let your melee in to attack. Or whatever.

Because you have absolutely zero spells of any sort left?

Consume Items is a horrible ability. It's ridiculously expensive to use (minimum 150gp if you buy a scroll, everything else is more -- runestones of power actually pay for themselves pretty quickly here to show how bad a deal it is). And in the end you get a tiny benefit out of it.

Major class decisions like this should not be written up for intended use only once in a blue moon. Especially if they destroy loot. It really encourages player conflict more than anything else. The fact some people are bad at math and hence think Consume Items needs to be nerfed is evidence of the sort of sloppy thinking that will start fights at some game tables over using this ability.

[MrSin]

150gp actually becomes super cheap really quickly. Sure during your first levels of adventuring its a bit, but then once you get to higher levels its really just pennies as far as players are concerned. Starting at sixth level its less than a 1% of your WBL. That's not necessarily a bad thing unless exploits themselves are overpowered, especially because if your using exploits your not using spells, which are by far powerful and do become exponentially more so. The downside is the lower levels are probably where you would want to use them the most and when they themselves are the least powerful.

[Drachasor]

MrSin wrote:

150gp actually becomes super cheap really quickly. Sure during your first levels of adventuring its a bit, but then once you get to higher levels its really just pennies as far as players are concerned. Starting at sixth level its less than a 1% of your WBL. That's not necessarily a bad thing unless exploits themselves are overpowered, especially because if your using exploits your not using spells, which are by far powerful and do become exponentially more so. The downside is the lower levels are probably where you would want to use them the most and when they themselves are the least powerful.

Except, IIRC, WBL guidelines have something like 10% of your resources as consumables. So it isn't 1% of your disposable income until level 14 or so. So it is, in fact, quite expensive.

And again, it is quite expensive compared to alternative ways of getting AR points. And the return on that 150gp+ is small. And again 150gp is IF you buy a wizard/cleric 2nd level scroll, anything is going to be about twice as expensive or even more.

Really no matter how you cut it, it's darn awful deal. You are better off just selling that magic item except in very, very rare cases. There are much better things to spend that money on. There could be very rare exceptions to this, but abilities should not be based around being VERY RARELY useful.

[MrSin]

The guidelines say that what you spend things on can vary greatly between classes and campaigns do tend to run WBL differently. I know one guy that hands it out mostly as spending cash and another who only gives you what drops and doesn't stay near it at all. PFS is just a little weird itself.

My point was that as you level those consumables do become cheaper relative to your spending cash, but lower levels is actually where I think you'd like to spend them for the blast the most.

[Drachasor]

MrSin wrote:

The guidelines say that what you spend things on can vary greatly between classes and campaigns do tend to run WBL differently. I know one guy that hands it out mostly as spending cash and another who only gives you what drops and doesn't stay near it at all. PFS is just a little weird itself.

My point was that as you level those consumables do become cheaper relative to your spending cash, but lower levels is actually where I think you'd like to spend them for the blast the most.

Eh, at higher levels you could spend them a lot just as easily to manipulate spells, counterspell, etc. But past 10+ it is a lot easier to generate AR.

And note, ONE AR point being ~1% of your wealth still makes AR very expensive. That means 1 day of AR for a 6th level character would cost over 10% of their wealth (since their max is 18).

Honestly, the whole AR system is a mess. It would make a lot more sense to use a Power Point like system. Then the power and cost can depend on the Spell Level much more easily. Overall this would be a lot easier to balance.

[andreww]

MrSin wrote:

That's not necessarily a bad thing unless exploits themselves are overpowered, especially because if your using exploits your not using spells, which are by far powerful and do become exponentially more so.

This is not really true if we look at the exploits which are actually worth taking.

Quote:

Potent Spell is used while casting a spell

Counterspell is used as an Immediate Action so doesn't interfere with spellcasting save for not getting a quickened spell on your next turn. Not a big loss given you will be using the exploit to avoid something hideous from your opponent.

Dimensional Slide is part of a move action

Metamaixing is used as part of a spell casting action

Spell Tinkerer is used outside of combat to make your buffs last for years or to suppress some hideous debuff

Disrupt Spell is similarly used for getting rid of debuffs

The rest of the exploits are pretty much pointless filler so you are either using an exploit along with a spell, out of your turn or to get rid of something which you have to get rid of.

[Robert A Matthews]

Think about it like this. What if there was a potion that cost 150g that recovered 1 Magus Arcane Pool point. How about one that recovered 1 use of Lay on Hands for a Paladin? How about one that recovered 1 use of Summon Monster for a Summoner? I'm not saying that I'd be spamming them, but I would always keep one or two of those handy just in case I needed them. That's basically what consume items does. It gives you one extra use of a class feature without spending a feat to gain extra uses, albeit at a minor gold cost. I'll likely take consume items once I get enough gold to buy a staff. 10 uses per session. Mana battery for 8000gp. And never having to prepare magic missile or shield? Score.

Staff of Minor Arcana:

Staff of Minor Arcana
Aura moderate abjuration and evocation; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 8,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.

Description
This gleaming staff is made of polished silver and capped with a simple gemstone. It is frequently given as a gift to apprentice spellcasters upon completing their tutelage. The staff allows use of the following spells:

Shield (1 charge)
Magic missile (2 charges)
Construction Requirements
Craft Staff, magic missile, shield; Cost 4,000 gp.

[Drachasor]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Think about it like this. What if there was a potion that cost 150g that recovered 1 Magus Arcane Pool point. How about one that recovered 1 use of Lay on Hands for a Paladin? How about one that recovered 1 use of Summon Monster for a Summoner? I'm not saying that I'd be spamming them, but I would always keep one or two of those handy just in case I needed them. That's basically what consume items does. It gives you one extra use of a class feature without spending a feat to gain extra uses, albeit at a minor gold cost. I'll likely take consume items once I get enough gold to buy a staff. 10 uses per session. Mana battery for 8000gp. And never having to prepare magic missile or shield? Score.

** spoiler omitted **

Well, you don't spend money very well though. I'd rather get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds which I'd know I use instead of a potion that gave ONE Lay on Hands (or 5 such potions). Easy enough to keep enough LoH in reserve when you aren't wasting it with after battle curing.

Can't help but feel the Summoner is playing horribly if they use up all of their summons AND their Eidolon. Seriously, what the heck?

That's the problem with Consume Items. It tricks people into making stupid financial decisions.

I don't really think the Staff of Minor Arcana is really worth it. Staff costs are linear up until 4th level spells and 5th level are just a bit more than that. Since you can only recharge one staff at a time, the mana battery that has 40 AR or 50 AR in it at full capacity is better. Especially if you can optionally use much more powerful spells from it.

[Robert A Matthews]

Drachasor wrote:

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Think about it like this. What if there was a potion that cost 150g that recovered 1 Magus Arcane Pool point. How about one that recovered 1 use of Lay on Hands for a Paladin? How about one that recovered 1 use of Summon Monster for a Summoner? I'm not saying that I'd be spamming them, but I would always keep one or two of those handy just in case I needed them. That's basically what consume items does. It gives you one extra use of a class feature without spending a feat to gain extra uses, albeit at a minor gold cost. I'll likely take consume items once I get enough gold to buy a staff. 10 uses per session. Mana battery for 8000gp. And never having to prepare magic missile or shield? Score.

** spoiler omitted **

Well, you don't spend money very well though. I'd rather get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds which I'd know I use instead of a potion that gave ONE Lay on Hands (or 5 such potions). Easy enough to keep enough LoH in reserve when you aren't wasting it with after battle curing.

Can't help but feel the Summoner is playing horribly if they use up all of their summons AND their Eidolon. Seriously, what the heck?

That's the problem with Consume Items. It tricks people into making stupid financial decisions.

I don't really think the Staff of Minor Arcana is really worth it. Staff costs are linear up until 4th level spells and 5th level are just a bit more than that. Since you can only recharge one staff at a time, the mana battery that has 40 AR or 50 AR in it at full capacity is better. Especially if you can optionally use much more powerful spells from it.

I'm really having trouble understanding why you have such a problem with the choices other people are making for their character. If we want to make "stupid financial decisions" that is our prerogative. The existence of this ability is not going to make Arcanists more loot hungry than any other class. A Fighter could just as easily want to hog the magic items to sell for gold. You really are making a mountain out of a molehill with this optional class feature.

[Drachasor]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Drachasor wrote:

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Think about it like this. What if there was a potion that cost 150g that recovered 1 Magus Arcane Pool point. How about one that recovered 1 use of Lay on Hands for a Paladin? How about one that recovered 1 use of Summon Monster for a Summoner? I'm not saying that I'd be spamming them, but I would always keep one or two of those handy just in case I needed them. That's basically what consume items does. It gives you one extra use of a class feature without spending a feat to gain extra uses, albeit at a minor gold cost. I'll likely take consume items once I get enough gold to buy a staff. 10 uses per session. Mana battery for 8000gp. And never having to prepare magic missile or shield? Score.

** spoiler omitted **

Well, you don't spend money very well though. I'd rather get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds which I'd know I use instead of a potion that gave ONE Lay on Hands (or 5 such potions). Easy enough to keep enough LoH in reserve when you aren't wasting it with after battle curing.

Can't help but feel the Summoner is playing horribly if they use up all of their summons AND their Eidolon. Seriously, what the heck?

That's the problem with Consume Items. It tricks people into making stupid financial decisions.

I don't really think the Staff of Minor Arcana is really worth it. Staff costs are linear up until 4th level spells and 5th level are just a bit more than that. Since you can only recharge one staff at a time, the mana battery that has 40 AR or 50 AR in it at full capacity is better. Especially if you can optionally use much more powerful spells from it.

I'm really having trouble understanding why you have such a problem with the choices other people are making for their character. If we want to make "stupid financial decisions" that is our prerogative. The existence of this ability is not going to make Arcanists more loot hungry than any other class. A Fighter could just as easily want to hog the magic items...

Maybe I think that good class design should result in good abilities. And choosing between good abilities is better for everyone.

I'm really having a problem understanding why you think some abilities should be crap.

[Scimmy]

The point is a class feature should not be something you use in emergencies only. Especially when that class feature is used to power another class feature. Am I saying it should be Uber powerful? No. I'm saying it should be moderately useful. As is it just isn't worth it at any level. And the staff, as already pointed out, is only good in PFS play. Otherwise all the points you get out of it have to be put back over a minimum of 10 days.

[RJGrady]

First read. Really nice. I'm just going to say it, this is sweet stuff. I like how they took the "casting magus" concept and tied it in with playing with and consuming magic. Balance, prima facie, appears to have been handled in the expected fashion by balancing spells prepared and spells you can cast. I like the minor focus on Charisma; it's doubtful anyone is going to build that way, but if you choose a race with Charisma bonus instead of an Intelligence bonus, you get something for your nickel.

Sorcerers get a spell or bloodline power about every other level or so; wizards get a feat every five levels. I think arcanist should really be somewhere in between. My gut says one exploit (great name!) every three levels. I don't see anything on the list I think would be a Bad Thing if you could snag it through an Extra Exploit feat; it creates a nice choice between "omg exploit" and Spell Focus (school of spell I plan to boost the DC of with my pool on a regular basis). I would expect humans and perhaps gnomes would be able to grab extra exploits through their favored class bonus. Elves, the artists of magic, might be able to prepare more spells per day.

Before the redesign, I was thinking sorcerer + wizard = arcane bond, but looking at this class, I think the opposite. Arcane bond ties you down. These guys cast magic differently every day. If they had a bonded item, they would just absorb their powers back the next day when they felt like doing something different. In keeping with that theme, what about some kind of exploit that disrupts or stuns familiars and suppresses bonded items? Perhaps something more general?

[UllarWarlord]

I just played with an arcanist as a GM last night.

Holy shizzle fo dizzle I love this class.

My favorite part, honestly? Dimensional slide. I used and abused it for ultimate battlefield control.

This character managed to make a combat last for over an hour, and she was practically BY HERSELF.

As a side note, I didn't get any opportunnities to use counterspell, and she got along quite well without it.

Just my 2 cp.

[robert best 549]

Wouldn't the simplest way to solve the issue that people are having with consume magic items be to make it where it disables non-charge based magic items instead of destroying them?

[Scimmy]

That was my and another person suggestion. You get AR points out of it and it disables the item until you put them back essentially

[Cheapy]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

Think about it like this. What if there was a potion that cost 150g that recovered 1 Magus Arcane Pool point. How about one that recovered 1 use of Lay on Hands for a Paladin? How about one that recovered 1 use of Summon Monster for a Summoner? I'm not saying that I'd be spamming them, but I would always keep one or two of those handy just in case I needed them. That's basically what consume items does. It gives you one extra use of a class feature without spending a feat to gain extra uses, albeit at a minor gold cost. I'll likely take consume items once I get enough gold to buy a staff. 10 uses per session. Mana battery for 8000gp. And never having to prepare magic missile or shield? Score.

** spoiler omitted **

Hence my suggestion of max of 2 times Cha mod times per day. Sure, you can get 10 points back. But you need to have 20 Charisma.

[andreww]

OK, as previously promised I said I would see how far the level 16 Arcanist could get through the Moonscar on his own. Note that there will be lots of spoilers in these posts so you may want to avoid if you haven't played the Moonscar.

First off our Hero, sent to investigate the mysterious disappearances and to find some people on the moon:

Arcanist:

Male Human (Varisian) Arcanist 16
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 120 ft.; Perception +23

--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 28, touch 15, flat-footed 24 (+4 armor, +6 shield, +4 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 172/146 (16d6+80)
Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +16; +8(4 points over Kimono) resistance vs. divination and mind-affecting
DR10/Magic against ranged weapons (100hp prevented)

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)

Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 16th; concentration +26/31 for defensive casting):

8th (3/day)—mind blank
7th (5/day)—summon monster vii, plane shift (DC 27)
6th (6/day)—flesh to stone (DC 28), disintegrate (DC 28), mass suggestion (DC 26)
5th (6/day)—elemental body ii, baleful polymorph (DC 29), feeblemind (DC 25), teleport
4th (6/day)—greater invisibility, charm monster (DC 24), dimensional anchor, emergency force sphere
3rd (6/day)—tongues, dispel magic, fireball (DC 23), suggestion (DC 23)
2nd (7/day)—resist energy, mirror image, command undead (DC 22), invisibility, see invisibility
1st (7/day)—snowball, magic missile, protection from evil, charm person (DC 21), air bubble
0 (at will)—mage hand, open/close (DC 22), detect magic, detect poison, light, arcane mark, message, ghost sound (DC 20), prestidigitation (DC 20)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 7, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 30, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +6; CMD 21

Feats: Dazing Spell, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (transmutation), Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Spell Perfection (Baleful Polymorph)

Traits: magical lineage (Baleful Polymorph), reactionary

Skills: Appraise +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +26, Fly +17, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +29, Knowledge (engineering) +14, Knowledge (geography) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (local) +14, Knowledge (nature) +29, Knowledge (nobility) +14, Knowledge (planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Linguistics +14, Perception +23, Spellcraft +34, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +16

Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Osiriani, Ancient, Terran, Varisian

Special Qualities: arcane reservoir (9, 48 maximum), arcanist exploits (counterspell, dimensional slide [160'], disrupt spell +0, greater metamagic knowledge, metamagic knowledge, metamixing, potent magic, spell tinkerer [±50% duration or suppress 1 rds), consume spells

Gear: Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Otherworldly kimono (1/day), Ring of invisibility, Wand of Infernal Healing, +5 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +4), Blessed book x2, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of vast intelligence +6 (Disable Device, , Ioun stone (clear spindle), Muleback cords, Ring of freedom of movement, Tome of clear thought +1, Vest of escape, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 150 GP

--------------------
Extended spells cast the previous day:

Mage Armour, Greater Darkvision, Misdirection (Tree Stump), Greater False Life (26 temp HP), Protection from Arrows, Countless Eyes, Non Detection, Detect Scrying, Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Getaway, Veil (to appear as a lesser Demon) and Contingency. Mind Blank is also cast.

All of them below level 8 are Extended which he then swaps out for Reach Spell today. Each is then tinkered once to increase their duration by 50% (48 hours for Extended Spells, 36 for Mind Blank)

Strictly speaking Planar Adaptation does not work as the moon is not another Plane but given the Abyssal incursion I am inclined to let it fly. Alternatively he will hire a Cleric to cast Delay Poison and Tinker that. Either way he can ignore the poisonous thorns.

Each spell is also cast using Potent Spells to increase its caster level by 2 to resist dispelling.

This costs a grand total of 28 points, easily dealt with by sacrificing a few spell slots during his off day. He re-memorises Mind Blank today just to be on the safe side, it is too important a buff to lose.

[Scimmy]

Probably want to post playtest results in the other forum.

[Cheapy]

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

[MrSin]

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

[Orthos]

It needs a DC listed. =)

[AndIMustMask]

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

'Got a problem with snowball, son?

[Jiggy]

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

[AndIMustMask]

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

colorado dweller over here, I feel your pain (or part of it, anyway).

[Pyromaniac]

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

[Jiggy]

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

[Nipin]

The black raven wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

omitted

Way I see it, this would polarize the class in two builds :

- The "eater of magic", CHA-based and focussed pretty much exclusively on exploits, maybe even to the point of dumping INT

- The "scholar of magic", INT-based and focussed on spells. Which actually feels like a lesser Wizard with some interesting side abilities (the exploits)

Not saying that this would be a bad thing per se, but I feel that it would be better for the class to inherently allow a continuum of CHA/INT mixes rather than focus on the extremes.

Come to think of it, I feel that this polarization is the main obstacle the class should avoid.

I think this if fine. There will also be a group which plays somewhere in the middle where the balance of exploits and magic makes sense for them. Slightly lower DCs don't matter for many spells and exploits can be used to bump DC in a pinch. A mix of the two creates a more versatile character who can use strong exploits like dispelling and make good use of spells (need more per day and reasonable DCs) with the bonus of being good at CHA and INT based skills (knowledge, diplomacy, linguistics, use magic device, etc.).

[The Forgotten]

It would be nice if this class could play up on the whole spell hacker thing. Two things I would like to see: the ability to contest control if summoned creatures and resisted spellcraft tests to tinker/hack. Somebody else suggested caster level checks but I think spellcraft might fit the concept better.

[Benn Roe]

If Consume Magic Items as written were supposed to be an emergency ability, it wouldn't take a standard action to activate. At a standard action, it likely takes you two rounds to get proper usage out of your consumables, which lends itself to planning ahead.

On the other hand, consumables are meant to be consumed. Who says drinking a potion is a better value than consuming it for reservoir points? Some of the things you can do with arcane reservoir points are just as potent situational effects as those of many of the low level potions, scrolls, and wands people keep around anyway. Consumables are already a wasteful use of resources. Being able to expand the versatility of already wasteful items seems fine to me.

It's just a shame that versatility is being hampered by the unnecessarily restrictive action economy necessary to convert your resources. This and Consume Spells should both take swift actions.

[andreww]

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Honestly, it is only there in the effect that I come across a Golem I cannot simply fly, teleport or earth glide past. It might take a while but eventually it will be demolished. Otherwise there is pretty much no reason to bother with it. Emergency Force Sphere is far far cheesier.

[andreww]

Scimmy wrote:

Probably want to post playtest results in the other forum.

Good idea so that is just what I have done.

[thaX]

Put on the brakes, there...

There is no need to bring Power Points into any part of this class. We don't want a Psionic character. I would rather have alternative ways to gain points and dump the Item Eating.

Through certain actions, perhaps, or maybe when you use magical items. There is a better solution than the equivelant of a magic bain Barbarian draining items for no real purpose.

Still think it is like having a rust monster as a familiar.

[Scimmy]

Other than dampening magic items, perhaps another way, going off that last post, would be to siphon off some of the potency of magic items as you use them. Lowering the CL by X of an item as a swift action to gain Y points for your AR. This fits the idea of a magic hacker just like suppressing permanent items temporarily would.

[Tels]

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

[AndIMustMask]

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

[Tels]

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

[Orthos]

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

Nope, not really. They can have it.

[Deadkitten]

Perhaps factoring in The Arcanists charisma modifier to the Consume Magic Items exploit might work. something like adding up to your Charisma modifier per Arcanist level to the amount of Arcane Pool points obtiained.

Could work, but could also be too much gained per item later. This is just me thinking off the top of my head.

[MrSin]

Orthos wrote:

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

Nope, not really. They can have it.

How much xp is it worth? Can I loot it?

Btw, wasn't this thread about the arcanist...

[Tels]

MrSin wrote:

Orthos wrote:

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

Nope, not really. They can have it.

How much xp is it worth? Can I loot it?

Btw, wasn't this thread about the arcanist...

Alaskan, Arcanist, either way, we're on top of the world :P

[Edit] No one likes a combo breaker.

[zergtitan]

Tels wrote:

Alaskan, Arcanist, either way, we're on top of the world :P

[Edit] No one likes a combo breaker.

Now all I can picture is Santa Clause casting spells as an Arcainist and riding a polar bear.

[Tels]

zergtitan wrote:

Tels wrote:

Alaskan, Arcanist, either way, we're on top of the world :P

[Edit] No one likes a combo breaker.

Now all I can picture is Santa Clause casting spells as an Arcainist and riding a polar bear.

You say that like it's a bad thing!

[LazarX]

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

As a vat bred New Jerseyan, I'm more than content to encourage you to keep Sarah Palin all to yourselves.

[Tels]

LazarX wrote:

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

As a vat bred New Jerseyan, I'm more than content to encourage you to keep Sarah Palin all to yourselves.

Considering the many idiotic things politicians from other states have done, I feel no reason to prevent Sarah Palin from wandering the world.

[Excaliburproxy]

Tels wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Tels wrote:

AndIMustMask wrote:

Tels wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

MrSin wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Hah, why am I not surprised to see snowball in that list.

Because its winter and we're all having fun in the snow?

My snow can die in a fire.

You rang?

Yes, please come to Minnesota and restore proper driving conditions. Thank you.

Pfft, how you guys liking my Alaskan cast offs?

feeling happy that at least i dont live in alaska

As a natural born Alaskan, I can only assume you are jealous you don't live in a place near North Pole.

As a vat bred New Jerseyan, I'm more than content to encourage you to keep Sarah Palin all to yourselves.

Considering the many idiotic things politicians from other states have done, I feel no reason to prevent Sarah Palin from wandering the world.

I am from Louisiana. Our ex-governor went to jail for racketeering after beating the former head of the Klu Klux Klan in the election.

He currently has a reality TV show about him and his 29 year old wife.

Also: no snow here at all almost ever.

This is a study of the anatomy of thread derailment

[HectorVivis]

Scimmy wrote:

The point is a class feature should not be something you use in emergencies only. Especially when that class feature is used to power another class feature.

Two words: Trap Sense

It's at least at the same level of use than this one. Both can be lifesavers depend of the situation. The good point with Consume is you can chose to take it or not.

Sidenote: an item that let me have one use of lay of hand, so access to all my mercies ? Hell yeah, I keep a bundle as I level up!

[MrSin]

In other (more related) news... There's a thread detailing an arcanist playing through the game solo.

[AndIMustMask]

HectorVivis wrote:

Scimmy wrote:

The point is a class feature should not be something you use in emergencies only. Especially when that class feature is used to power another class feature.

Two words: Trap Sense

It's at least at the same level of use than this one. Both can be lifesavers depend of the situation. The good point with Consume is you can chose to take it or not.

Sidenote: an item that let me have one use of lay of hand, so access to all my mercies ? Hell yeah, I keep a bundle as I level up!

ah, yes, that thing on that class that SEVERELY NEED TO BE REWORKED.

[FlySkyHigh]

Maybe it's just me, and I may have missed this, but I feel like the "Greater" explotis are really... not so great. I mean, most of them only give you bonuses IF people fail your saves, but as you go up in levels it's more likely that people WILL make the saves, and others require that you counter people of higher level than you, which as you go higher becomes less and less common...

[naetuir]

After thoroughly reading the original, and then reading the rewrite, and making sure that I thoroughly understood the intent of the class, I have to say that I am disappointed that they are just another Sorcerer build.

The playtest description of the Arcanist reads, "Savant of arcane magic, the arcanist combines the magic that flows through her veins with meticulous research to enhance her abilities. Given enough time, she can call upon her innate power, using proven technique, giving her both flexibility and raw magical might. Those who find the calling to become an arcanist have a spark of mystical power in their blood, but not enough to manifest such powers fully. Instead, they turn to study to enhance their innate abilities, relying on a potent blend of talent and discipline. " This description is much closer to what I wanted, rather than a mooshing together of the Wizard and Sorcerer.

As my group came to see it, we all didn't want to see just another class that operates off of the Sorc/Wiz spell list. It's preferable that they focus on tinkering with magic- More 'spell tinkering,' throwing around raw energy, maybe even using an actual skill to refine the raw power as they manifest it. That's closer to what I see an Arcanist as. Not just-another-spellcaster. I see them as their own whole breed of magic user, complete with possibility for wild misfires, and surges of power, and exhaustion. I know that feedback is pretty far afield from the current build, but it is what I would prefer. Tonight is my first playtest with the new classes, and I'm sending a bunch of beta classes down 'The Well' in Rappan Athuk. We'll see how they hold up. Hopefully I'll have more specific feedback about the Arcanist-as-it-exists-now, after.