Playtest: Level 16 Arcanist versus The Moonscar


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OK, as I promised in the Arcanist discussion thread I said I would see how far the level 16 Arcanist could get through the Moonscar on his own. Note that there will be lots of spoilers in these posts so you may want to avoid if you haven't played the Moonscar.

First off our Hero, sent to investigate the mysterious disappearances and to find some people on the moon:

Marcus:
Professor Marcus D'Avore, Arcanist Extraordinaire
Male Human (Varisian) Arcanist 16
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 120 ft.; Perception +23

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Defense
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AC 28, touch 15, flat-footed 24 (+4 armor, +6 shield, +4 Dex, +3 natural)
HP 172/146 (16d6+80)
Fort +15, Ref +13, Will +16; +8(4 points over Kimono) resistance vs. divination and mind-affecting
DR10/Magic against ranged weapons (100hp prevented)

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Offense
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Speed 30 ft., fly 40 ft. (average)

Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 16th; concentration +26/31 for defensive casting):

8th (3/day): mind blank
7th (5/day): summon monster vii, plane shift (DC 27)
6th (6/day): flesh to stone (DC 28), disintegrate (DC 28), mass suggestion (DC 26)
5th (6/day): elemental body ii, baleful polymorph (DC 29), feeblemind (DC 25), teleport
4th (6/day): greater invisibility, charm monster (DC 24), dimensional anchor, emergency force sphere
3rd (6/day): tongues, dispel magic, fireball (DC 23), suggestion (DC 23)
2nd (7/day): resist energy, mirror image, command undead (DC 22), invisibility, see invisibility
1st (7/day): snowball(DC21), magic missile, protection from evil, charm person (DC 21), air bubble
0 (at will): mage hand, open/close (DC 22), detect magic, detect poison, light, arcane mark, message, ghost sound (DC 20), prestidigitation (DC 20)

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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 30, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +6; CMD 21

Feats: Dazing Spell, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (transmutation), Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Reach Spell, Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Spell Perfection (Baleful Polymorph)

Traits: magical lineage (Baleful Polymorph), reactionary

Skills: Appraise +14, Diplomacy +14, Disable Device +26, Escape Artist +26, Fly +17, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +29, Knowledge (engineering) +14, Knowledge (geography) +14, Knowledge (history) +14, Knowledge (local) +14, Knowledge (nature) +29, Knowledge (nobility) +14, Knowledge (planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Linguistics +14, Perception +23, Spellcraft +34, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +16

Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Osiriani, Ancient, Terran, Varisian

Special Qualities: arcane reservoir (9, 48 maximum), arcanist exploits (counterspell, dimensional slide [160'], disrupt spell +0, greater metamagic knowledge, metamagic knowledge, metamixing, potent magic, spell tinkerer [±50% duration or suppress 1 rds), consume spells

Gear: Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Otherworldly kimono (1/day), Ring of invisibility, Wand of Infernal Healing, +5 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +4), Blessed book x2, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of vast intelligence +6 (Disable Device, , Ioun stone (clear spindle), Muleback cords, Ring of freedom of movement, Tome of clear thought +1, Vest of escape, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 150 GP

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Extended spells cast the previous day:

Mage Armour, Greater Darkvision, Misdirection (Tree Stump), Greater False Life (26 temp HP), Protection from Arrows, Countless Eyes, Non Detection, Detect Scrying, Overland Flight, Life Bubble, Planar Adaption, Getaway, Veil (to appear as a lesser Demon) and Contingency. Mind Blank is also cast.

All of them below level 8 are Extended which he then swaps out for Reach Spell today. Each is then tinkered once to increase their duration by 50% (48 hours for Extended Spells, 36 for Mind Blank). Contingency is set to cast Teleport when he clicks his fingers.

Strictly speaking Planar Adaptation does not work as the moon is not another Plane but given the Abyssal incursion I am inclined to let it fly. Alternatively he will hire a Cleric to cast Delay Poison and Tinker that. Either way he can ignore the poisonous thorns.

Each spell is also cast using Potent Spells to increase its caster level by 2 to resist dispelling.

This costs a grand total of 30 points, easily dealt with by sacrificing a few spell slots during his off day. He re-memorises Mind Blank today just to be on the safe side, it is too important a buff to lose.

OK, here we go. Standing before the Somal Gate our hero activates his Ring of Invisibility. This is something he will keep on doing throughout. He checks his spells are all still in place and steps through to be whisked off to the moon.

Encounter 1:
He is on the Moon! He easily spots the Sisters of Vigilance given they are flying around in plain sight up in the air. They cannot detect him. They have a Perception of 26 but his effective Stealth is currently 40 and given they are flying up near the edge of the forest range penalties make it impossible for them to see him. Deciding there is no need to bother them he slips into the forest.

Encounter 2:
The Glade of Copious Blooms. Warning, dangerous plant monsters ahead. Their Perception of 13 cannot beat his Stealth of 40 and as he is flying Tremosense is not helping. Their Stealth of 13 versus 23 perception means they are probably spotted. Even if they are missed he quietly makes his way past them.

Encounter 3:
That is one bloody big troll, fortunately it has no way of seeing him. Unfortunately the crawling hands do if he gets close enough. He can easily evade them by Dimensional Sliding past the lot of them but decides he doesn't want to leave this big monstrosity behind him just in case. He sets up a good 250' in front of the creature and drops a Reach Persistent Baleful Polymorph spell enhanced with Potent Spells (level 5 slot due to Magical Lineage and Spell Perfection, DC31, 2 saves take the lowest, needs a 15). A 4 turns our troll into a puppy dog and makes our hero visible. It fails its will save as well. He re-cloaks himself in Invisibility and waits for the hands to wander off so he can collect the puppy. He pops it into his Handy Haversack. You never know when dropping a Jotund Troll on someone can come in handy.

Encounter 4:
The Ebony Lake. Such a pretty spot, he makes a note of it as a possible picnic spot. Unfortunately there is something unpleasant lurking beneath the waters and it has blindsight! That could be a problem. It auto spots him when he gets within 30' as its lurks below the murky waters. 27 stealth versus his 23 perception means I give it a surprise round. Deciding that it would rather like a snack it leads off with a Tongue attack hoping to swallow this morsel. A 20 confirms with a 6 due to being flatfooted but the damage is low, only 24 and the grab fails due to the ring of freedom of movement. It then tries quickened Hold Person but he only needs a 1 to pass. He rolls 20. Initiative is rolled:

Marcus 24
Froghemoth 17

Recognising it for what it is (41 on Knowledge: Planes) Marcus drops a potent Flesh to Stone on it (level 6 spell slot, DC30). He easily beats its SR with his +24 (CL16 +4 feats +4 kimono) and can cast any of his spells defensively with his +31 concentrations (the highest defensive casting DC for him is 31). An 8 sends it sinking to the bottom of the lake. He could have Baleful Polymorphed it but that would risk keeping its spell like abilities intact.

He has 2 temporary HP left.

Encounter 5:
Gorillas sir, thousands of them! And these come with constant See Invisibility which would be great if Mind Blank didn't stick a giant finger up at it. With a Stealth of 19 and Perception of 20 Marcus might not spot them but they definitely cannot see him. He passes on by.

Encounter 6:
When finding strange standing stones spattered with blood and carved with weird runes who exactly is stupid enough to start chanting the stuff carved there. Marcus auto recognises the true name but chooses not to invoke it while on his own on the moon in an abyss haunted forest. He notes it down for future reference as a possible target for Greater Planar Binding. It is worth noting that even if he had uttered the name the Demon would not have been able to see him using Clairvoyance. Mind Blank blocks its True Seeing and it doesn't work through Clairvoyance in any event.

Encounter 7:
The Shrine at last but wait, there is a significant problem. The three Moonbeasts waiting in front of it with their 90' Blindsight. They are also immune to illusions which will presumably include the Invisibility. Their old shepherd act isn't fooling anyone but they will spot Marcus coming some distance away with their 34 Perception. He will see them as well as they are out in the open. Battle will be joined immediately and I set the starting range at 150'. I give each of the Moonbeasts their own initiative roll:

Marcus 12
Beast 1 16
Beast 2 18
Beast 3 19

Oh dear, that doesn't look good.

Round 1:

Beast 3: Targeted quickened dispel magic fails to dispel anything. DC23 confusion saves easily (needs a 3)
Beast 2: Dispel Magic fails (they have a CL of 14 and his spells have a CL of 18). Also uses Confusion which he saves against
Beast 1: Dispel Magic is yet another fail. Switching from confusion this one uses Shadow Conjuration for Stinking Cloud seeking to nauseate him. He passes the Will and Fort save but would arguably have been immune anyway due to Life Bubble.
All three also advance using air walk.
Marcus: Potent Flesh to Stone on Beast 3 succeeds (beats SR with a 6, needs a 3) and it crashes into the cliff below smashing into a thousand pieces. He then retreats 40' backwards.

Round 2:

Beast 2: Targeted Dispel Magic on Marcus passes with a 19 and strips away Getaway. Moves 100' closer to try and use its Wisdom draining tentacles as spells don't seem to be having an effect.
Beast 1: Targeted Dispel succeeds and removes non detection! Follows up with another shadowy stinking cloud. Passes the will save and the fortitude one.
Marcus: Potent Flesh to Stone on Beast 2 beats SR and its 16 is still a fail sending another lawn ornament to crash down onto the rocks. Moves another 40' away.

Round 3:

Beast 1: Having managed to do next to nothing it decides discretion is the better part of valour and Plane Shifts away.

OK, that is the end of our first phase. Our hero has successfully navigated through the haunted moon forest and arrived at the main adventure location. He has used up the following resources:

Spell slots:
1 x 5th
3 x 6th

Arcane Pool Points: 5/9 remain


So, evaluation of the first part of our adventure.

Obviously a lot of the encounters were bypassed but Marcus is focused on achieving his goal, getting side tracked with random monsters is not on the agenda, uses up valuable time and limited spell slots. As a full caster this remains a strong suit of the Arcanist.

For the encounters that did occur the heavy lifter is Spell Perfection which is pretty much common to most full casters. Potent Spell however is a significant benefit allowing you to add effectively greater spell focus to any spell regardless of the school.

Spell Tinker is also way out of whack for a class which can know every spell. Even if we limit it to using it once per spell it still turns any hour/level buff spell into a multi day buff allowing the character to replace those buff spell slots with more useful ones while adventuring. Dispelling in combat is generally a waste of time as you are usually better off trying to kill your opponent. The only reason it was used by the Moonbeasts was because they can cast it as a swift action 3/day.

When I initially saw the class I was dubious about it's effectiveness given the small number of available spells prepared at any one time. I am not really feeling it at this level.

The Arcane Pool is not a very limited pool at all. In the first 7 encounters he has used all of 4 points. At this level he can easily sacrifice a level 4 spell slot to regain those points. High level combats don't last very many rounds, at least if you have players and a GM who know what they are doing. Low level spell slots are plentiful so expect the Arcanist to always have points if he needs them.


OK, on to Part 2. Having arrived at the Spire our hero refills his arcane pool with a level 4 spell slot, cloaks himself in invisibility and heads into the Shrine. I assume its inhabitants are aware something is up given the sounds of flying lawn ornaments crashing into the rocks but they still cannot perceive him.

Encounter 8:
The Shrine is a confusing place filled with semi clad beautiful people but Marcus is not to be distracted. He searches as best he can while trying to avoid notice. To help make things a little easier he uses an Elemental Body II to take the form of an earth elemental and earth glides around the place poking into corners. He finds the Succubus reclining in her sanctum and hits her with a potent Suggestion (DC27 due to the influence of the Planar Traits). Her SR is beaten automatically and she fails the save with a 2 (she needed an 17).

He asks her to tell him where her Mistress is keeping the mortals kidnapped from Golarion and she discloses the entrance to the lower levels outside. Realising with a dawning horror what she has done and how her Mistress is likely to react she attacks:

Initiative:
Marcus: 20
Succubus: 19

Round 1:

Marcus: Realising he cannot let her get away or alert her allies above he hits her with a potent Persistent Baleful Polymorph and a fluffy kitten joins our menagerie.

Resources remaining:
Spells: 7/7/5/4/4/3/5/3
Pool: 7

Ring of Agony:
Descending into the lower levels with earth glide Marcus easily spots the magical trap with Detect Magic. Pausing to consider dispelling it instead he Dimensionally Slides well past it. He enters the chamber with the Somalcygots but their tremorsense cannot detect flying targets and he cannot see them buried as they are in the rock. He pauses to browse in the library before flying into the next chamber. I assume the Elemental Form spell has expired by now. He detects the trap in the next room and sighs at the obviousness. Steeling himself he flies towards the Lillend. The tongue lashes out and does...nothing. Freedom of Movement saves him again. He continues to try and grapple him but is nothing more than a rather icky distraction. When he reaches the Lillend he realises there is nothing he can do for her. He could release her but she would remain mad as he cannot heal her. A Persistent Polymorph turns her into a mouse which he slips into his pocket. He hopes to help her back to her senses once he leaves this awful place. As he flies onwards he cleans demonic tongue slather off himself with prestidigitation.

Marcus floats into the room with the Pools. I decide that the time he spent trying to help the Lillend means that the Hezrous have been alerted. He arrives to find the room empty of enemies but does sense the presence of magic. With a Perception of 23 they probably shouldn't be able to see him but I give them a bonus on the basis that his movements disturb the fog. They get a surprise round and realise they are facing an invisible enemy so unleash aoe attacks. Note the Stench Aura does nothing due to Life Bubble.

Initiative:
Marcus 13
H1 21
H2 9
H3 20
H4 6

Surprise Round:

H1: Casts Blasphemy to no effect due to their caster level being too low
H3: Launches Chaos Hammer at Marcus which he saves against taking 6 damage
H2: Casts Unholy Blight at Marcus which he saves against taking 7 damage.
H4: Dismisses Gaseous Form in order to engage in melee. Given the size of the room I decide it starts within reach of him.

Round 1:
H1: Launches Unholy Blight but he saves again taking 5 damage (he only fails on a 1, this could take a while).
H3: Same again, they are waiting for their enemy to become visible. Another save, 3 damage this time.
Marcus: Realising he is facing multiple enemies only one of which he can see (H4) he hits it with a potent Suggestion that it should teleport off to its favourite location on the moon for some rest and relaxation. SR is beaten easily and it fails its save (DC27 versus a save of 9). Marcus becomes visible.
H2: Dismisses Gaseous Form as its spells aren't having an effect and move into melee range.
H4: Teleports off to enjoy itself.

Round 2:
H1: Dismisses Gaseous Form and moves to flank with H2
H3: Dismisses Gaseous Form and moves into range.
Marcus: Surrounded by 3 Hezrou things could be very tricky. He dips into his higher level slots again and drops a potent Mass Suggestion that they should all go and join their colleague and have a great time together. DC 30 means they need a 20 to save and he beats SR automatically. 18, 9 and 4 mean the whole group are off on holiday for the next 16 hours.

He burns two charges of his wand to heal himself fully and then continues. He floats forward shaking his head at the appalling state of the prisoners here but none of them are the people he is here for and he cannot save everyone. He tops of his Arcane Pool with a level 2 spell slot and descends into the Cage of Contemplation.

With a Stealth of 15 Marcus is liable to see the Dragon before he enters the range of its Blindsense. Detect Magic only has a range of 60' so he wont be getting close enough to use it as it brings him in range of her Blindsense. He decides that the Dragons presence is sufficiently unusual it demands investigation. He drops a potent Charm Monster to see what is going on. As the shadow is the controlling entity it goes against its saves. He fails to penetrate SR and becomes visible. With a roar the Dragon attacks.

Initiative:

Marcus: 19
Dragon: 10

Round 1:

Marcus: Realising that it is a dragon and therefore a potentially potent spellcaster (as well as liable to have a high Fort defence) he launches a potent Persistent Feeblemind at it. DC 29 (due to the planar effects) and forcing two saves but a level 7 spell slot. He beats SR and forces it to take the 11 which is an easy fail given the -4 Will penalty. He would fly up and out of the way but he cant as it took a full round action.

Dragon: The shadow demon is now feebleminded. It charges at Marcus biting for 23 damage. He saves against the Frightful Presence.

Round 2:

Marcus: Still needing to deal with the monster he launches a potent Persistent Polymorph. He beats SR on a 1, automatically casts defensively and the Dragon fails its save with a 5 (DC31 with a 14 bonus) turning into a rabbit. He pops it into his pack and begins to search the room. The shadow demon gets expelled of its own accord shortly which could provoke an interesting and very unexpected battle.

A quick search of the room (taking 10) fails to turn up the hidden compartment and he cannot unpick the locks on the cages so he is forced to take the much longer Take 20 route. That turns up the keys and the passageway to the next level. He releases the two prisoners, turns them both invisible, Teleports them to the Somal Gate and then Teleports back. No mishap occurs. He burns a level 4 spell slot to refill his pool.

Resources remaining:
Spells: 7/4/4/2/0/2/4/3
Pool: 7

With no remaining level 5 spell slots he strongly considers stopping to rest up but presses on regardless.


OK, so evaluation of part 2.

Potent Spell remains very effective at pushing DC's for save or suck and save or lose spells into areas where enemies really aren't likely to make it. Combined with Persistent Spell its hard to produce opponents who are likely to have much of a chance if you take spells which target each save. It will be interesting to see how he deals with the anti paladin if he gets that far.

I haven't used Counterspell yet as all of the enemies have used SLA or SU abilities. Still don't regret taking it as against an enemy spellcaster it is very potent.

Greater Metamagic knowledge is just nuts. Letting you extend all of your buffs on your off day and then swap to whichever feat will be most useful for you while adventuring is great. Know you are hunting a red dragon grab Elemental Spell (Cold). Expecting to face ghosts Ectoplasmic Spell. Need to capture rather than kill, Merciful. Have your allies brought all of their followers, flunkies and hangers on, Selective Spell!

On arcane pool I have now gone through 5 actual encounters and still have plenty of pool points. I am hurting a little bit for spell slots, especially level 5 ones but have barely touched level 7 and 8 slots. At this level low level spell slots are sufficiently plentiful to allow you to keep yourself topped up with enough points for any encounter. High level encounters tend not to last an awfully large number of rounds anyway which cuts down on the number of points you need at any one time. I have a maximum pool of 48 and wouldn't know what to do with them all if it was full. Maybe turn my minute long buff spells into year long ones with Tinkering.

On his spell selection I am hurting for an aoe removal spell below Mass Suggestion. Dazing Fireball isn't really looking all that attractive. I should probably have grabbed something like Confusion or even Glitterdust. DC24 aoe blindness or DC 25 aoe nauseated wouldn't be too bad against something like the Hezrou which would be needing a 15 or 16 to save, at least if they weren't immune to poison.


"Spell Tinker is also way out of whack for a class which can know every spell."

I am not sure if the spell tinkering is really out of whack relative to a wizard who can simply keep a spell slot of every level open.

Still, I am excited for these continuing adventures.

Dark Archive

Sounding good, looks like a fun class.


Ok, onwards to Part 3. Current resources stand at:

Spells: 7/4/4/2/0/2/4/3
Pool: 7

Ring of Obedience:
Entering this area Marcus begins to explore. He studiously leaves the statues alone as he isn't an idiot and passes through to the Vrock chamber. They cannot perceive him and their 25 Perception fails against an effective 40 stealth. Marcus passes though into the Ring of Seduction.

Ring of Seduction:
Entering the next level Marcus again begins to explore. Having no intention of opening any sarcophagi unless he absolutely has to he eventually finds the Corpulent Mistresses chamber. He is flying so ignores the difficult terrain and Life Bubble preserves him from the stench. I assume Betcezia is busy performing some vile experiment when he arrives. DC32 Knowledge Religion pegs her as an undead succubus which gives him pause for thought.

Her Perception of 37 versus Stealth 40 results in a narrow success for Marcus. It occurs to him that he has something of a problem as she is immune to Polymorph, Flesh to Stone and all of his Enchantment spells. He is faced with possibly having to demolish her with repeated Fireballs! He considers dropping a Celestial TRex on her but decides to invest in a precious Level 8 spell slot and uses a potent Reach Plane Shift to dispatch her to the Positive Material Plane. This is a full round action so I decide he doesn't get a surprise round and both roll initiative.

Marcus: 23
Vampire: 18

Marcus: He easily hits her Touch AC. Caster Level is 24 against SR 28, DC is 29 versus a Will save of 18 but the dice gods are with us (12 and 4) and she vanishes in a puff of smoke. Sadly for her she has no way of surviving in her new home.

Spells: 7/4/4/2/0/2/4/2
Pool: 6

Marcus flies onwards entering the last chamber of this level to be confronted by the towering form of a Marilith demon. Quailing slightly at something with quite such a high Fortitude save he steadies his nerves and thinks. Perception of 31 is not beating 40 Stealth and True Seeing is sadly no help for the Marilith. He decides that he needs to use guile and distraction. He moves well back and unleashes a Persistent Charm Monster spell using metamixing to keep it a standard action in the surprise round. CL is 24 versus SR of 28. DC is 26 with a save of 15. A 13 for SR and 5 for the save mean the spell takes hold. Marcus drops his invisibility to reveal his demonic Veiled form and convinces the Marilith that he is bringing a message for their mistress. He is allowed through but this could be an issue if the Marilith can join a later battle.

Spells: 7/4/4/2/0/1/4/2
Pool: 5

Ring of Ecstasy:
The Disjunction Trap is spotted with Detect Magic or with taking 10 on Perception. Marcus Dimensionally Slides past it although it wouldn't actually trigger for him given his alignment. Now we have a bit of a dilemma.

If he goes the wrong way and encounters the Symbol of Death trap it could kill him (HP 146 versus the 150HP limit) although he only needs a 7 to save. Alternatively it may just cost him a level 4 spell slot as Emergency Force Sphere arguably saves him by breaking line of effect.

In any event I assume he heads in the opposite direction.

Faced with a set of three doors and not wanting to alert anyone to his presence Marcus uses Dimensional Slide to move past the first door. Once within he begins to examine the prisoners with Detect Magic. He picks up many of the enchantment spells on them and makes his save against the first Glabrezus Veil. He passes into the connecting corridor where he encounters the General. Avoiding him (and his -1 Perception modifier) he checks out the other two chambers where he saves against both other Veil spells (he only needs a 5). Worried about his limited available spell slots he ponders what to do.

He burns a level 3 spell slot for pool points and assumes Improved Invisibility. He strikes at the middle Glabrezu with Potent Persistent Feeblemind (DC27). He beats its hopeless +0 initiative modifier and auto penetrates SR. With an 11 will modifier it fails its save rolling a 7. It becomes indistinguishable from the other prisoners.

He moves to the other two chambers to repeat the process moving around the oblivious General. He beats the second Glabrezu's initiative by 1 (rolled 9 versus 18) and forces it to use a 3 for its save. The third Glabrezu fares no better which just leaves the General. A potent Suggestion spell dispatches him to wait at the entrance to the level for an allegedly important visitor. His Will save of 6 is no defence against the DC 27 spell. He burns one level 2 and two level 1 slots for AP and moves towards the final confrontation.

Spells: 7/5/3/1/0/1/1/2
Pool: 6

The Boudoir:
Note that the Prismatic Wall is not up as Izmiarra is not yet aware of the existence of a threat so close. If it was then the last level 4 spell slot would have been used for elemental body to earth glide through the wall. Her Perception of 23 means she does not see Marcus coming. Her mount is at 32 so it is still unlikely. A 48 on Knowledge: Planes pegs her as a succubus anti paladin so Marcus knows whatever he uses has to contend with some potent saves. He would like to have had Enervation at this point but that's life.

He decides to retreat a little to plan. Assessing his remaining options he decides that he does not have the firepower to take her out but luckily he doesn't have to. He slips back into the main chamber and unlocks the manacles holding those he is here to rescue (no DC is listed but taking 10 hits DC36 which should be more than enough). He gathers them together and Plane Shifts them to the Ethereal Plane. He follows it up with another targeting Absalom on the Material following which he Teleports them to safety with his last Level 6 slot. Returning home he ponders how he might deal with the Succubus Mistress now that he knows where she sleeps. Of course he anticipates that she is likely to be prepared for another assault once she learns what has happened to her servants but fortunately all any of them can tell her was that an unknown lesser demon has been wandering around the place and that a number of her servants have deserted or been struck mad.

So, with a rearranging of his available spells and an adjustment to metamagic how might Marcus defeat Izmiara? A combination of Improved Invisibility followed by Empowered Enervations would probably debuff her to the point where a save or suck would stick. Alternatively he could switch to Limited Wish to impose a -7 save penalty followed by your preferred Persistent Save or Suck. Repeated applications of Empowered Hellfire Ray might do it (no save) but she has a lot of HP to burn through. He may wait a couple of levels at which point will be able to Gate her in.

Whichever option he chooses he at least has the option to do so but it will have to wait for another day. Whatever happens the Arcanist nicely sits in Tier 1 and is happy to operate without a party at higher levels.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Biggest problem with all this is you are running and playing by yourself, you are missing on the randomness of someone else making the judgement call. And knowing stats and saves just isn't something a DM will (ok should) ever tell you. With a good knowledge check you might find out one save is a little better or worse but you should never know exact numbers. I like the idea of what you did and it is helpful info, just not sure we can call it 100% accurate since you did it all solo.

Grand Lodge

so far it just seems like you're highlighting how awesome invisibility is and levitation....

Any sorc or wizard could do what you're doing really. Conjuration spells to d-door, or if he teleportation school, to just step as swift...


Caladrel the snide wrote:

so far it just seems like you're highlighting how awesome invisibility is and levitation....

Any sorc or wizard could do what you're doing really. Conjuration spells to d-door, or if he teleportation school, to just step as swift...

Yes, this is rather the point. The Arcanist operates at the same level as a capable Wizard or Sorcerer. Whether or not you think that is a good thing is a quite different matter.


Scimmy wrote:
Biggest problem with all this is you are running and playing by yourself, you are missing on the randomness of someone else making the judgement call. And knowing stats and saves just isn't something a DM will (ok should) ever tell you. With a good knowledge check you might find out one save is a little better or worse but you should never know exact numbers. I like the idea of what you did and it is helpful info, just not sure we can call it 100% accurate since you did it all solo.

While a player wont know exact numbers its not hard to realise that Outsiders have good saves across the board, Dragons have poor Reflex saves or that Fighters have strong Fort saves and Poor Will ones.

You will see a number of times I very much was not targeting the weakest save. Against the Vampire/Succubus I am forced to target Will, which is very often an undead creatures best save. Against the Dragon I target Will when Reflex would generally be the better choice.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

"Spell Tinker is also way out of whack for a class which can know every spell."

I am not sure if the spell tinkering is really out of whack relative to a wizard who can simply keep a spell slot of every level open.

Still, I am excited for these continuing adventures.

It is uncertain at the moment whether or not an Arcanist can also keep a slot open. It is less viable as they have fewer of them but adds a lot of flexibility.

However, Tinkering is not limited to one use per spell and increases the remaining duration not the original. That conceivably allows you to set up 1 round/level buffs as virtually permanent effects, at least in the mid to higher levels. Ironically this is one feature which is less effective in PFS games which assume that all spells expire between games.


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Lacking a once-per-spell restriction on Spell Tinkering (something that needs to be added), as part of your previous day preparation, you could easily have done this entire thing with a ~40 hour duration improved invisibility, true seeing, and greater arcane sight. I have not done the math fully, but I suspect you would have more than enough points to support another two or three spells of choice like stoneskin and (from a scroll) shapechange; with an additional day of preparation, you could have half your spell list active.

Also, without the once-per-spell restriction an Arcanist of this level can generate an infinite duration time stop.


Pretty much it needs to be once ever otherwise any hour per level buff will eventually become effectively permanent at level level 16 with extend.

Sczarni

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well considering he's supposed to be a full caster that's based off two full casters that use the same spell list... yeah I don't think pointing out "see he uses invisibility" is anything worth a remark or thought.

you might as well say "see he can cast contact other plane"

Spell tinkering is strong but not really op. Extending the duration just isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be. Most things aren't considered to be stackable, and I'd just assume for the sake of things that spell tinkering is not. If it is, I'd assume it stacks not with it's own duration but the original. IE casting it on something lasting 6 rounds 10 times gives you a duration of 36rounds, not 345 rounds. (which funny enough would only net you a little under 6 minutes for 10 uses of tinkering)

Worrying over extending buffs in the mid/high lvl game to very long is not something worth it. Many will have sense/magical powers to ignore it.

I would argue it doesn't affect time stop as it's a duration of instant, but for you the caster you have an "apparent" 1d4+1 rounds... which indicates these aren't actual rounds. so it falls under the can't impact "instant" durations.


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Hm, it seems like being to extend spells over from a previous day seems pretty abusable, especially since the Arcanist can pretty easily extend the spell using their arcane exploits, then re-prepare their spells the next day.

Most DMs I know probably wouldn't allow that, but I'm curious, are there any restrictions on that in PFS? If not, it's probably something that should get looked at...


Mechalibur wrote:
Most DMs I know probably wouldn't allow that, but I'm curious, are there any restrictions on that in PFS? If not, it's probably something that should get looked at...

Spell effects end at the end of the scenario effectively. There are a few that can make it and are noted in the handbook if I remember correctly, such as continual flame.

In PFS the big worry is them devouring all your consumables probably. Omnomnom free arcane points.


Mechalibur wrote:

Hm, it seems like being to extend spells over from a previous day seems pretty abusable, especially since the Arcanist can pretty easily extend the spell using their arcane exploits, then re-prepare their spells the next day.

Most DMs I know probably wouldn't allow that, but I'm curious, are there any restrictions on that in PFS? If not, it's probably something that should get looked at...

This is something which you can already do with Extend Spell to an extent. A level 11 Wizard can cast Extended Overland Flight and have it last for the next 22 hours, rest up and the next day replace that spell slot with something else when he goes adventuring.

Spell Tinkering, as currently written, just lets you turn those day long durations into year long ones if you really want to.

Also what a GM might or might not allow isn't really here or there when looking at what the rules actually say.


Andreww-

First, this was an impressive amount of work, and I think the feedback was pretty awesome. I for one have not seen many practical demonstrations of high level spellcasters, so I found this very interesting.

I was wondering if you (or a willing onlooker) would be willing to undertake the exercise a second time with a Wizard? This would give us a better grasp of the compared power level between the Arcanist and the classic full caster arcane class.

-Myst


Not for me sorry. Not a huge fan of the amount of book keeping Wizards require. I might run a sorcerer through and see what happens if I get the time.


andreww wrote:
This is something which you can already do with Extend Spell to an extent. A level 11 Wizard can cast Extended Overland Flight and have it last for the next 22 hours, rest up and the next day replace that spell slot with something else when he goes adventuring.

The difference is that the Spell Tinkering arcanist ability, without a once-per-spell type of restriction, allows an arcanist with 16 intelligence to do this with 'hour/level' duration spells starting at level 3. At level 4, they can turn any second 'minute/level' spell buff (including those with CL3+ from items) into a 5+ day effect with two days of preparation, which then just continues to grow exponentially with one point from their pool each day.

At level 6, an arcanist can with one day of prep, cast one of their third level spells with a duration measured in 'rounds/level' and increase the duration to 118.5 hours.

Sczarni

at lvl 6 the arcanist can cast it, then a round later use it to extend to 7 (round down)

then next round they can tinker again, to extend to 9, then next round to 12, next round 22, next round 31, next round 45 rounds, next round 66, next round 97, next round 145, next round 217....

we're at 10 uses of tinkering for this "uber" extension.

at lvl 6 you have approximatly 1+1/2 lvl... so 4...

So to do this as you're suggesting they'd have to burn 2 lvl 3, or 3 lvl 2 or 6 lvl 1 slots. And that's just to get that 1rd/lvl spell to 217 rounds (or in minutes... 21.7minutes.)

This is so incredibly overpowered I can't believe they are going to allow it! lolz....


lantzkev wrote:

at lvl 6 the arcanist can cast it, then a round later use it to extend to 7 (round down)

then next round they can tinker again, to extend to 9, then next round to 12, next round 22, next round 31, next round 45 rounds, next round 66, next round 97, next round 145, next round 217....

we're at 10 uses of tinkering for this "uber" extension.

at lvl 6 you have approximatly 1+1/2 lvl... so 4...

So to do this as you're suggesting they'd have to burn 2 lvl 3, or 3 lvl 2 or 6 lvl 1 slots. And that's just to get that 1rd/lvl spell to 217 rounds (or in minutes... 21.7minutes.)

This is so incredibly overpowered I can't believe they are going to allow it! lolz....

Our 6th level Arcanist has 5 spells of first level, 5 spells of second level and 3 spells of third level. At 6th level, their maximum reservoir is 18, since they star off with 4 points each day, they could consume all of their second level spells for 10 points (totaling 14 in the pool), and then a 3rd level spell and a 1st level spell to top off at 18 points in the pool.

To get to 217 rounds, the Arcanist has already spent 10 of his 18 points with Tinker. He can then spend 8 more points to keep extending his 1 round per level spell (I'll choose Vanish as an example).

217 (10) = 325 (11) = 487 (12) = 730 (13) = 1,095 (14) = 1642 (15) = 2,463 (16) = 3,694 (17) = 5,541 (18)

So the Arcanist has used up 18 Reservoir Points to extend his Vanish spell to 5,541 rounds or a little over 9 hours. At this point, the Arcanist can consume the rest of his spells (3 first level and 2 third level remaining) for another 9 reservoir points. This drops his rounds down to 5,536 remaining at which points he extends again.

5,536 (9) = 8,304 (8) = 12,456 (7) = 18,684 (6) = 28,026 (5) = 42,039 (4) = 63,058 (3) = 94,587 (2) = 141,880 (1) = 212,820 or 354.8 hours if I do my math right. (212,820 multiplied by 6 to get the total number of seconds, then divide that total by 60 to get the number of minutes, then divide by 60 for the number of hours)

So a 6th level Arcanist could spend all of his spells and AR points in a day off at home, to tinker/extend a 1 round per level spell, like Vanish, to last for 354.8 hours, or 14.7 days.

Not broken at all...

Sczarni

We can agree or disagree about things, but in the vacuum of a adventurer getting to buff days before his adventure without anything happening on those days, it's only broken in the theory of "no one else can do this" so it's broken.

Now if it gets a limmit to where you extend the original value or that you add half the original value to the duration... not as "broken"

Then you have no exponential issue with buffs.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not to mention vanish is the worst spell to do that to.


By now the Spell Tinker issue is well known. If people want to continue the discussion could you do it in the main Arcanist thread please.


Nice playtest andreww, it was a good read. Andreww is right, spell tinker obviously needs a fix and it was likely an oversight that it's not limited to one time per spell. However the playtest "revealed" the strength of some other arcanist features that were not pointed out as much as I would like.

- Spontaneous metamagic and metamixing
The ability to spontaneously enhance spells with metamagic is a really strong feature because it overcomes the main weakness of the arcanist's spellcasting mechanic (limited spells prepared). With metamixing the arcanist only needs to enhance spells when he casts them. That means each time a wizard prepares a metamagic spell the arcanist effectivly saves a prepared spell slot compared to a wizard. The otherwise superior spellcasting of the arcanist should be balanced in some way. The only balance mechanic of a limited amount of prepared spells is undermined by spontaneous metamagic. I think that is a major issue.

Suggestion:
Remove spontaneous metamagic completly. Give arcanists the worst of both worlds. Only prepared metamagic combined with a longer casting time. Metamixing reduces the casting time as normal.

- Potent magic
At lower levels refilling the arcane pool is impossible or costly and you only have a really limited number of points. Because of that potent magic is a cool but limited trick at lower levels. Later in the game the arcane reservoir can be easily refilled and you have a lot more points to begin with. Potent magic still only consumes a single point. Because of that it becomes similar to a permanent ability. But always increasing the DC of any spell you cast by 2 is really good. Compared to sorcerer and wizard class features propably too good.

Suggestion 1, higher cost:
increase the cost to one point per level of the spell (e.g. burning hands = 1, scorching ray = 2, ...)

Suggestion 2, weaker effect:
Remove the option to increase DC or CL by one without taking any exploit. The potent magic exploit gives this ability instead (+1 DC or CL).

- Greater metamagic
This is really good but the arcanist needs some fun things. If spontaneous metamagic is removed it's still good.

Sczarni

I'm not sure how spontaneously metamagicing is a incredible strength, it turns whatever the cast time is and makes it a full round rather than a standard etc... and takes up a higher spell slot still.

that's the same "strength" a sorcerer has.


A pretty neat read, though probably not giving enough credit to the guy having a perfect gear set for the dungeon.

Every single enemy flubbing every single save makes a pretty significant difference, too =P Even with really high save DCs, some of the enemies should be shrugging off spells due to dumb luck.

Yeah, I'd expect a wizard or sorcerer with similar gear, and equally unlucky enemies, to do just as well.

Also, he left the job unfinished:
The most important of the prisoners the arcanist needed to rescue are still in the Insatiable Queen's custody - she has a mirror of life trapping, and most of them are stuck in it.


Doh, I completely forgot about that. Guess he will have to go back! Not sure I would call it a perfect gear set, its pretty much standard gear for me at this level. There isn't any specifically anti outsider in there.


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Zhangar wrote:

A pretty neat read, though probably not giving enough credit to the guy having a perfect gear set for the dungeon.

Every single enemy flubbing every single save makes a pretty significant difference, too =P Even with really high save DCs, some of the enemies should be shrugging off spells due to dumb luck.

Yeah, I'd expect a wizard or sorcerer with similar gear, and equally unlucky enemies, to do just as well.

** spoiler omitted **

It was an extremely lucky run. Many of those save-or-suck spells that he only needed a 4 to make would have killed him on a fail, and the a priori probability of making so many in a row with every enemy failing was very very low. I'm willing to believe that this run was just very lucky, but the luck was statistically significant (p<.05).


lantzkev wrote:

I'm not sure how spontaneously metamagicing is a incredible strength, it turns whatever the cast time is and makes it a full round rather than a standard etc... and takes up a higher spell slot still.

that's the same "strength" a sorcerer has.

You are right sorcerers can do that as well. But that's one of the advantages of spontaneous casters and normally comes with all the limitations of spontaneous casting.

I will show you what I mean. The arcanist prepared the following spells:

8th (3/day): mind blank
7th (5/day): summon monster vii, plane shift (DC 27)
6th (6/day): flesh to stone (DC 28), disintegrate (DC 28), mass suggestion (DC 26)
5th (6/day): elemental body ii, baleful polymorph (DC 29), feeblemind (DC 25), teleport
4th (6/day): greater invisibility, charm monster (DC 24), dimensional anchor, emergency force sphere
3rd (6/day): tongues, dispel magic, fireball (DC 23), suggestion (DC 23)
2nd (7/day): resist energy, mirror image, command undead (DC 22), invisibility, see invisibility
1st (7/day): snowball(DC21), magic missile, protection from evil, charm person (DC 21), air bubble
0 (at will): mage hand, open/close (DC 22), detect magic, detect poison, light, arcane mark, message, ghost sound (DC 20), prestidigitation (DC 20)

He actually used:
8th - Reach Plane Shift (wait why did the undead succubus have to save twice against this??)
7th - Persistent Feeblemind (2)
6th - Flesh to Stone (3) (it seems he used this without line of sight against the moonbeasts?), Mass Suggestion, Persistent Charm Monster
5th - elemental body ii, Baleful Polymorph (3), Reach Baleful Polymorph (he apparantly used magical lineage and spell perfection. Using a first level starting trait for a 5th level spell seems odd.)
4th - charm monster, greater invisibility
3rd - Suggestion (2)

If you now assume he prepared the metamagic spells like a wizard his spells prepared would have to look more like this:

8th (3/day): mind blank, reach plane shift
7th (5/day): summon monster vii, plane shift (DC 27), persistent feeblemind
6th (6/day): flesh to stone (DC 28), disintegrate (DC 28), mass suggestion (DC 26), persistent charm monster
5th (6/day): elemental body ii, baleful polymorph (DC 29), feeblemind (DC 25), reach baleful polymorph, teleport
4th (6/day): greater invisibility, charm monster (DC 24), dimensional anchor, emergency force sphere
3rd (6/day): tongues, dispel magic, fireball (DC 23), suggestion (DC 23)
2nd (7/day): resist energy, mirror image, command undead (DC 22), invisibility, see invisibility
1st (7/day): snowball(DC21), magic missile, protection from evil, charm person (DC 21), air bubble
0 (at will): mage hand, open/close (DC 22), detect magic, detect poison, light, arcane mark, message, ghost sound (DC 20), prestidigitation (DC 20)

He would have to drop some spells to match the limited spells prepared and lose versatility because of it. Would he really use his only level 8 slot to prepare reach plane shift if he couldn't cast it spontaneously? What would he drop for persistent feeblemind?? Would he really prepare a persistent charm monnster?
Spontaneous metamagic is really strong for arcanists because it frees up their valuable higher level slots for other stuff.

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Zhangar wrote:

A pretty neat read, though probably not giving enough credit to the guy having a perfect gear set for the dungeon.

Every single enemy flubbing every single save makes a pretty significant difference, too =P Even with really high save DCs, some of the enemies should be shrugging off spells due to dumb luck.

Yeah, I'd expect a wizard or sorcerer with similar gear, and equally unlucky enemies, to do just as well.

** spoiler omitted **

It was an extremely lucky run. Many of those save-or-suck spells that he only needed a 4 to make would have killed him on a fail, and the a priori probability of making so many in a row with every enemy failing was very very low. I'm willing to believe that this run was just very lucky, but the luck was statistically significant (p<.05).

While I don't think that the arcanist in this playtest would live to see his pension or even his next paycheck it's still valuable information. What I took away was that the arcanists on the first glance limited spells prepared are not that important at higher levels because they don't have to prepare all the metamagic versions like wizards have to. Potent Magic seems to become really strong as well.


Azran wrote:

He actually used:

8th - Reach Plane Shift (wait why did the undead succubus have to save twice against this??)
7th - Persistent Feeblemind (2)
6th - Flesh to Stone (3) (it seems he used this without line of sight against the moonbeasts?), Mass Suggestion, Persistent Charm Monster
5th - elemental body ii, Baleful Polymorph (3), Reach Baleful Polymorph (he apparantly used magical lineage and spell perfection. Using a first level starting trait for a 5th level spell seems odd.)
4th - charm monster, greater invisibility
3rd - Suggestion (2)

1. The Plane Shift rolls were SR and then save.

2. He has line of sight to the Moonbeasts, They aren't invisible or anything.

3. The choice you make for Magical Lineage is very much based on what level you think you will reach. If this was a PFS character I would never pick Baleful Polymorph but if I was playing in an AP which might well hit 16 then I very well might.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
It was an extremely lucky run. Many of those save-or-suck spells that he only needed a 4 to make would have killed him on a fail, and the a priori probability of making so many in a row with every enemy failing was very very low. I'm willing to believe that this run was just very lucky, but the luck was statistically significant (p<.05).

I think you over emphasise the degree of luck involved or the risk from those saves he was forced to make.

Marcus is forced to make the following saves:

Froghemoth - Hold Person - only fails on a 1, forgot he was immune due to ring of freedom of movement

Moonbeasts - two confusions needing a 3 which would not have won them the fight, as soon as one attacked him he would focus on it, two shadow conjurations which also needs a 3 and which he is arguably immune to

Hezrou - some irrelevant chaos hammers, fails on a 1

Dragon - Frightful Presence, fear effect, immune

Enemies are forced to make the following:

Troll - two saves taking the lowest, needs a 15, even if is passed it cannot do anything to him so will succumb eventually

Froghemoth - one save, needs a 16, again insufficient offence means it is doomed

Moonbeasts - 2 saves needing an 18

Succubus - one save needing a 17, two saves taking the lowest needing a 20

Hezrou - one save needing an 18, 3 saves needing a 20

Dragon - 2 saves taking the lowest needing a 17 twice

Undead Succubus - one save needing a 9, about the only roll in the whole thing I would count as a lucky break. Life could have been very difficult if she had failed due to my poor preparation.

Marilith - two saves taking the lowest, needs an 11

Glabrezu - each is forced to make two saves taking the lowest needing a 16

General - one save needing a 20

At high level it is entirely possible for spellcasters to push their DC's well into the very difficult to pass category. Adding Persistent into the mix further significantly reduces the chance of anything passing at this level if you are clever about the defence which you target or have decent knowledge skills.

The new class revision allowing you to cherry pick the DC boosting bloodlines will send things even further out of whack.


Would you necessarily have died on any failed save? Sure, not really. But my probabilities are correct. When you go long enough, the chances of bad luck pile up, even when each individual roll is likely. Even if we only consider your 100% record on offense, it was less than 7% likely to happen (and when you multiply it in with the 100% successful saves, the chance drops extremely low). Even though they were very unlikely, I don't think you just made up numbers but rather that you had a freakishly lucky streak. But that's important to remember when weighing the value of the playtest.

Oh, and I agree about the problem with the DC boosting bloodlines!


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The thing is, adventuring in general is a freakishly lucky streak. We're talking about individuals who voluntarily join a profession where they can expect more lethal situations in one day than they have meals, at least four of which are probably combat, against beings that can slay them with a glance, turn them to stone, rip out their souls and feast on them, drag them into nightmare dimensions of eternal torture, paralyze them (and proceed to feed on their helpless bodies) and that's just the mild stuff.

Doing that sort of thing solo isn't really more insane than the baseline 'doing this at all'.


Azran wrote:
I will show you what I mean. The arcanist prepared the following spells: ...

I think this is all that needs to be said as to why the arcanist's spellcasting mechanic is so stupidly powerful.


Craft Cheese wrote:
Azran wrote:
I will show you what I mean. The arcanist prepared the following spells: ...
I think this is all that needs to be said as to why the arcanist's spellcasting mechanic is so stupidly powerful.

Not really. The spells he had prepared / used are identical to what a sorcerer is capable of. The comparison should be arcanist & sorcerer, not arcanist & wizard. The arcanist gains the ability to change their 'known' spells on a daily basis; in exchange, they can cast significantly fewer of those spells, and further use their daily spells as fuel for their other class abilities.

It is not the spellcasting that makes the current version of the arcanist overpowered, but the spell enhancement from their arcane reservoir, along with a couple of their exploits.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Thanks for the read Andreww -- I like the discussion it prompted too! I haven't read enough to contribute, but wanted to kudos the work done so far.


Craft Cheese wrote:
Azran wrote:
I will show you what I mean. The arcanist prepared the following spells: ...
I think this is all that needs to be said as to why the arcanist's spellcasting mechanic is so stupidly powerful.

I don't really agree. I think the mechanic is powerful, but it is pretty much the only advantage the arcanist has in typical play against a wizard due to limited spells per day, extremely limited spells prepared, and delayed access to high level spells. A wizard could have packed in literally every single spell used here and still have room for extras (especially in terms of higher level spells), as shown below:

(Specialist wizard of the same level with the same intelligence score)

8th (3+1) - mind blank, reach plane shift, 2 extra slots
7th (4+1) - summon monster VII, plane shift, persistent feeblemind x2, 1 extra slot
6th (5+1) - disintegrate, flesh to stone x3, mass suggestion, persistent charm monster
5th (6+1) - elemental body II, baleful polymorph x3, feeblemind, teleport, reach baleful polymorph
4th (6+1) - greater invisibility, charm monster, dimensional anchor, emergency force sphere, 3 extra slots
3rd (6+1) - tongues, dispel magic, fireball, suggestion x2, 2 extra slots
2nd (7+1) - resist energy, mirror image, command undead, invisibility, see invisibility, 3 extra slots
1st (7+1) - snowball, magic missile, protection from evil, charm person, air bubble, 3 extra slots

Sczarni

at the level you're talking about, a rod of metamagic to handle the odd need for reach or whatever... is trivial and more beneficial at any rate.

You're talking about how potent it is, if they had no other option.

Like Peter pointed out, being able to spontaneously metamagic a prepared metamagic is cool but, it's not silly powerful. Specifically #known/prepared...

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