New Iconics?


Advanced Class Guide Playtest General Discussion

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Will we be seeing a new set of ten iconics for the new ACG classes as the playtest progresses? This is a great opportunity to add variety to the established iconic crew and take the classes in less-expected directions, such as a warpriest of Zon-Kuthon or a draconic bloodrager. It could also be an opportunity to use races not as common in the current batch such as the half-elf, tiefling, oread, etc.

What do you think? What sort of iconics would you like to see?


If the races used in the iconic portraits are too inhuman, then the portrait becomes about those features, rather than showing the gear and style that would be typically associated with the class.

I'd like to see some of the non-standard races become Iconics, but I'm not sure it would be a good choice for the art direction.

I think humans are overrepresented in the current iconic line, so I hope we get a few more of the other classic races to contrast the non-human iconics that already exist.

Sczarni

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I agree that I think the current batch of iconics played it "too close to the chalk" as it were, and it would be nice for a new set of iconics (if there will be some) to show more of what each class CAN be, not just the most basic implementation.

Given the current batch of iconics, however, it seems Paizo's stance is clear. They've given us the standard baseline for each class and that's likely what they'll keep giving us.


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iconics of non-core races could be pretty cool if we keep it around the ballpark of planetouched, samsaran, dhampirs and changelings, so as to reduce the focus on nonhuman features by turning them into a mere accessory or coloration.

but then, i want to see a loli goth iconic or maybe 3. a loligoth Slayer, Investigator, Skald, Swashbuckler, or Arcanist would be pretty sweet. or if you can do tweaking, a loligoth bloodrager or shaman could work too.

either way, i want a loli goth Iconic. and i better get one. Kuroneko/Ruri Gokou makes a good baseline for the kinda design i'd like to see. maybe on an Aasimaar, Half Elf, Dhampir or Changeling.


I feel like it's hard to honestly say that the current group of iconics is too stereotypical unless your standards are that every single iconic should violate every possible stereotype. There are a lot of humans because Golarion has a lot of human cultures, and many, many iconics are races that you wouldn't necessarily immediately associate with the class, and the genders are nicely mixed up as well. If you look at the roster of iconics, Paizo appears to have intentionally gone out of their way to NOT do "classical" race-class combinations.

Iconics also serve an important role in being a visual representation of what the class looks like. They're literally the art that appears front and center in the class description. An iconic that violates EVERY expectation for what a character of a particular class looks like stops being an effective representative of the class.

The one thing that I do think they should do is to try to juggle things so that new iconics are different from existing iconics that are in similar niches. For example, Kyra, Alahazra and Seelah are all human women, so maybe the iconic Warpriest should be non-human or a guy. Similarly for the Shaman, who's positioned between several female human iconics, and the Brawler, who's between two male humans. The Investigator is a blend of two classes represented by CN elves, so maybe they can go in a different direction with that. Stuff like that I think makes sense.

I expect that they'll include representatives of new races too, of course, especially ones that have gotten more attention. (Aasimar, Tieflings, and Goblins).


It seems like each of the classes already has a gender, so that generally suggests how the art is likely to go.

Grand Lodge

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Requesting that the Investigator be a male tengu... named Harvey.

please ^_^


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Since the new classes are hybrid mash-ups of two classes, the new iconics should be as well. For example, the hunter could be a stout, bearded, green-haired gnome. The warpriest could be Valeros and Kyra crossed together into one character. The arcanist could be Ezren but dressed in Seoni's outfit.

Silver Crusade

Not a bad suggestion OP. Ratfolk, Kitsune and Nagaji would be cool to see as iconics.


still wanna know how the iconic gunslinger uses two guns at once (successfully, and without spare arms or weapon cords)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AndIMustMask wrote:
still wanna know how the iconic gunslinger uses two guns at once (successfully, and without spare arms or weapon cords)

Artwork > rules.


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that explains why the iconic rogue is wearing more knives than clothes.


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I am hoping we get at least a male half-orc and female dwarf and halfling. Those are currently missing from the line up.

Now that Tieflings and Aasimar are PFS legal, would be nice to get one of each.


AndIMustMask wrote:
still wanna know how the iconic gunslinger uses two guns at once (successfully, and without spare arms or weapon cords)

Who says both guns have to be fired on the same round?

Also, the Iconics aren't really known for being optimized. It wouldn't surprise me if the gunslinger iconic had two guns, but wasn't very good at using them together.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
AndIMustMask wrote:
still wanna know how the iconic gunslinger uses two guns at once (successfully, and without spare arms or weapon cords)

She shoots with her two pistols, and what she shooting at is either dead at her feat, or she draws out her melee weapon, (a master work longsword) and finishes it off that way. How many people seem to forget that the gunslinger has Martial Weapon proficiencies as well?


Joyd wrote:
I feel like it's hard to honestly say that the current group of iconics is too stereotypical unless your standards are that every single iconic should violate every possible stereotype.

No, not at all, but look at the numbers:

Human Iconics (14):
  • Antipaladin
  • Barbarian
  • Cavalier
  • Cleric
  • Fighter
  • Gunslinger
  • Monk
  • Ninja
  • Oracle
  • Paladin
  • Sa murai
  • Sorcerer
  • Witch
  • Wizard

Non-Human Iconics (8):
  • Alchemist
  • Bard
  • Druid
  • Inquisitor
  • Magus
  • Ranger
  • Rogue
  • Summoner

Even excluding the antipaladin and alternate classes, it's still pretty imbalanced when you consider that there are three gnomes, two elves, one dwarf, one half-elf and one half-orc.

It's not about going out of the way to "break stereotypes" but just offer up some more variety and show what other characters you can build. As this is the Advanced Class Guide, it's an excellent opportunity to show off some more exotic and advanced character concepts (which isn't to say the other iconics are somehow less advanced, but you get my point).

For example, what if we had a tiefling abyssal bloodrager, able to Hulk out and make his heritage fully apparent (and terrifying)? Or maybe for the warpriest we could have a divine character that channels negative energy; maybe a lawful neutral devotee of Zon-Kuthon or something?

There's a lot of potential out there to demonstrate that not all characters are human, not all divine classes have to channel positive energy, etc. There are a lot of player options not shown in the current iconics (which is great for introductory characters), and that's the sort of variety I'd like the new iconics to demonstrate; not necessarily to "break stereotypes" but to show less experienced players some of the other choices they can make.


I still wouldn't hold my breath for non-core races as iconics. They've never done it before and I see no reason for them to start now.

On another note, I couldn't help but notice that the rules text for the new classes gives away the genders for the iconics. I'm on mobile right now so I don't have the document in front of me, but I know they're splitting it right down the middle (5 male, 5 female).

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs has already confirmed that the majority of the new iconics will be humans. Sadly.


Remember, the idea of the iconics is to *not* force the user to have to own supplemental material to use them.

For this reason alone, aasimar and teiflings and tengu, et al, are off the table, and also why alot of feats and powers and spells from later books are just not going to be there.

Given racial diversity in Galorian, they should mostly be human. As it stands now the human to non-human ratio is way out of whack in favor of the non-humans... if one compares them to expected world racial makeups.

And I for one think the current iconics are anything but 'expected'...

Scarab Sages

Time for a dash of reality. The look of iconics is most dependent on art. Art orders have gone out long ago (most likely). This thread is pointless.


Matthew Trent wrote:
Time for a dash of reality. The look of iconics is most dependent on art. Art orders have gone out long ago (most likely). This thread is pointless.

If discussing speculation and others' opinions is pointless, why do you go to an online forum in the first place?

I wasn't aware that the art orders had already gone out, but the point of this thread wasn't necessarily to change Paizo's plans or opinions; it was more to share speculation and ideas about what the iconics will be and what people want out of them.

With that in mind, what kind of characters do you hope comes out of the new batch?

Liberty's Edge

Why people still insist on counting the antipaladin guy as a iconic even tough James said a bazillion times he isn't one?


i just want a loligoth iconic or 3 for the Weeaboo in me. something animesque and cute, that isn't a gnome or halfling and is not half-naked. my problem with most of the current female iconics, is their costumes are either very skimpy and revealing, or very skintight and formfitting, i'd like to see the newer female iconics wear something that isn't boob plate, isn't lingerie, and something that isn't skintight leather, plus i would like to see some female iconics whom don't run around with oversized busts.

it is why i want to see a loligoth iconic, they can be cute or even attractive, in a way that requires a focus on neither cheesecaking the breasts, wearing skin tight clothing, or running around in lingerie.

yes, i want a loligoth iconic, she doesn't have to be a child and i would prefer that she isn't a halfling or gnome either, but i want to see a petite framed but still human sized iconic in a fashion evoking the beauty and frailty of the porcelain doll, without being either the giant amazon woman, the boob plate wearer, or the skintight leather wearer. one could look at Kuroneko/Gokou Ruri from Oreimo as an example baseline, or as other examples, Lizzy from Black Butler, or Noire from Hyperdimension Neptunia.


I'm suprised no one is jumping on the premise that having a "stereotypical" race/class combination inherently makes a character boring. Achilles was a human fighter. We still read the Illiad.

If anything, I've found "unique" race/class combinations end up being an excuse for poor roleplaying and special-snowflakiness. Ask my playgroup about the Githyanki from our first game together. He nearly got himself and everyone else killed because he was "playing his character." By stabbing the cleric who had just healed him. Then running away. In sub-zero temperatures. With no clothes on. As a character who was supposed to be intelligent.

Point is, appearance doesn't make interesting characters. Backstory and personality does.

Sczarni

I want to see a Halfling Brawler. Just something different. how about a small combat iconic.


a loligoth iconic could easily be a human, elf, or half-elf pretty easily if working with core races. and if you open up the advanced race guide, then you can get close with a Samsaran, Changeling, Dhampir, Aasimaar, Tiefling, Sylph, Oread, Undine, Ifrit, Fetchling or Suli.

all the loligoth iconic requires is an essentially human or sufficiently human appearance, a petite frame, and cute features that all evoke the beauty and frailty of the porcelain dolls from Victorian England, a trait associated with Victorian Noblewomen.

Lizzy from Black Butler and Kuroneko/Gokou Ruri from Oreimo are both human examples of Loligoth done well, and Noire counts as human due to her appearance, despite being a goddess. in fact, Kuroneko/Gokou Ruri is an example of more traditional gothic lolita on a petite but somewhat older, but still young individual. showing an example of how it can work on a petite 16-25 year old rather than a 10-14 year old. she is also proof that you can be a high school graduate and still be pretty flat chested. Lizzy captures the more childlike aspects of the style, and Noire wears a more provocative version of the fashion that still maintains most of it's appeal.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I doubt paizo is going to make a frail woman iconic.


Paladinosaur wrote:
Yeah, I doubt paizo is going to make a frail woman iconic.

don't shoot down my dreams of a loligoth. they don't have to truly be frail, they just have to evoke the apparent image of frailty on a cosmetic while still being cute and eyecatching in a way that doesn't involve showing off breasts, wearing skintight clothing, or wearing next to nothing. a petite young girl in loligoth fashion could work quite well for the investigator, the arcanist, the shaman, or swashbuckler, and with a bit of effort, could apply to the skald, slayer, bloodrager, brawler, warpriest or hunter if you don't mind a bit of subversion and possibly the use of concealable light armor. loligoth is just one of the easier fashions to do this with while still being fantasy appropriate.


Maybe this time we can some of the iconics sitting. Yes the investigator should be sitting for his/her pose. Possibly with a pipe, cigar, or some other tobacco product, but not dip. Dip isn't classy... or hygienic.


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I want to see an Ettin Bloodrager/Skald. (One head is a Skald and the other is a Bloodrager.)


The NPC wrote:
Maybe this time we can some of the iconics sitting. Yes the investigator should be sitting for his/her pose. Possibly with a pipe, cigar, or some other tobacco product, but not dip. Dip isn't classy... or hygienic.

the investigator should be a loligoth sitting down with a Teacup in her hand. Gokou Ruri/Kuroneko style or Victorique De Blois Style. she should have a book in front of her at her bedside as she sits down in a contemplative pose, and she should be very clean and well maintained.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
a loligoth iconic could easily be a human, elf, or half-elf pretty easily if working with core races.

Or Halfling, a not insignificant number of which canonically pass as human children.

Silver Crusade

Still hoping for a tiefling iconic somewhere down the line.

Aasimar too, provided it doesn't fall into the 3.0/3.5 "bland" stereotype that PF art has been kicking in the head for quite some time now(thanks Blood of Angels!)


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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
i just want a loligoth iconic or 3 for the Weeaboo in me. something animesque and cute, that isn't a gnome or halfling and is not half-naked. my problem with most of the current female iconics, is their costumes are either very skimpy and revealing, or very skintight and formfitting,

Yes, you want a loligoth. That is very, very apparent.

However... The representation of female iconics seems to be pretty well done. You have women in armor (that is very specifically not boobplate) in the Paladin and Cleric. The Barbarian and Inquisitor are both wearing appropriate attire that is not sexualized. You have petite women without any boobs or butt in the Rogue (she wears "skin tight" leather.... But you can't see anything of her figure because she is covered in knives. That doesn't count as cheesecake and you know it) and the Druid. You have women who don't wear much clothing, true, in the Witch, Oracle, and Sorcerer, but there's nothing wrong with that. Their poses are also specifically done in a manner to where they are strong and confident in their abilities, not the seductive boobs-and-ass poses that so many other companies go out of their way for.

I mean, keep asking for your kawaii anime iconic, but please don't misrepresent the facts.


extinct_fizz wrote:
However... The representation of female iconics seems to be pretty well done. You have women in armor (that is very specifically not boobplate) in the Paladin and Cleric.

Seelah is pretty clearly wearing boobplate. The iconic cleric does however avoid boobplate.

extinct_fizz wrote:
The Barbarian and Inquisitor are both wearing appropriate attire that is not sexualized.

You must have a very different understanding of sexualized than I do. I would say stuff like this is pretty sexualized. Imrijka is less sexualized than Amiri, but her art still has the whole boob-window thing going on.

extinct_fizz wrote:
You have petite women without any boobs or butt in the Rogue (she wears "skin tight" leather.... But you can't see anything of her figure because she is covered in knives. That doesn't count as cheesecake and you know it) and the Druid.

I don't know where you get Merisiel is free from boobs or butt. Her outfit in her art has a boob-window. Or consider the miniature for her. The druid Lini does avoid these issues, though. I'll admit she's actually one of my favorite iconics.

extinct_fizz wrote:
You have women who don't wear much clothing, true, in the Witch, Oracle, and Sorcerer, but there's nothing wrong with that. Their poses are also specifically done in a manner to where they are strong and confident in their abilities, not the seductive boobs-and-ass poses that so many other companies go out of their way for.
It's certainly true that the iconic witch, oracle, and sorcerer are miles better than much of what passes as fantasy "art". Unfortunately, being strong and confident isn't enough to avoid objectification. Stephen Bond has a nice explanation of the problem (the whole thing is worth a read, but I'm quoting from the "macho poses for women" section):
Stephen Bond, 'Ways of Objectifying' wrote:

Both of these images reference familiar images of male power. The two models are muscular and athletic, they set their shoulders square, they fill space rather than shy away from it... On the surface, these are images of powerful women. I suspect most women would find them less offensive than the first image on this page, and if any women actually find them empowering, it's certainly not my business to object. But I think very few male chauvinists would feel threatened by these images; quite the contrary.

For one thing, both images contain deliberate signs of weakness, little reassurances that the power of these women is not a serious threat... More significantly, these images exist in a context, and that context is the widespread sexual objectification of women. Images like this are displayed side by side with images of women as objects to be desired and possessed and f@#~ed. The image on the right, for example, was displayed in the same shop as the image at the top of the page [a typical sexually objectified image of a woman], a few metres further along on the same wall. (emphasis mine)

There's a lot of good in Pathfinder's iconics. I like Lini's art. I like what was done with Kyra and Seelah (the boobplate thing really is a minor quibble). I like Imrijka, despite the boob-window. I like the alchemist and magus, whose names I can never remember. I don't like the bard, but that's because halfling.

However, the existence of good does not erase the existence of bad.


Mikaze wrote:

Still hoping for a tiefling iconic somewhere down the line.

Aasimar too, provided it doesn't fall into the 3.0/3.5 "bland" stereotype that PF art has been kicking in the head for quite some time now(thanks Blood of Angels!)

Me toooo! They're in the bestiary, that's as close to Core as you can get with the "Non-Core" races.

I love how open ended the appearances for Tieflings and Aasimars are :3

I'll settle for some of those pictures as Avatars though!

Sczarni

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I really want to see a small race used for one of the Combat classes, There are combat oriented Halflings and Gnomes. Just because their abilities are not the best for the classes does not mean they do not exist. A slayer or Brawler Gnome or Halfling would be really cool. Chang it up a little bit and dont make their iconics the best race for the class.


i·con·ic/aɪˈkɒnɪk/ Show Spelled [ahy-kon-ik] Show IPA
adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of an icon.
2. Art. (of statues, portraits, etc.) executed according to a convention or tradition.

Iconics shouldn't be gimmicks. A halfing Fighter can be cool, but when you say "Fighter," I think Dwarf or Human.

Sczarni

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I play small warriors all the time, They dont feel like gimmicks to me. Halflings have warriors too.

Scarab Sages

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Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
extinct_fizz wrote:
However... The representation of female iconics seems to be pretty well done. You have women in armor (that is very specifically not boobplate) in the Paladin and Cleric.
Seelah is pretty clearly wearing boobplate. The iconic cleric does however avoid boobplate.

That is not boobplate. Plate armor is designed to be worn long-term, and so therefore needs to be something you can wear all day without getting sore. And that means that it needs to conform to the wearer's body shape. If Seelah's armor didn't fit her figure, then it would put too much pressure on her and be uncomfortable to wear. It also needs to be fairly fitted so that it provides adequate support, a lack of which would cause soreness. A single "shelf" would probably be sufficient, but I can see the artists rejecting the uniboob look from an aesthetic standpoint, and frankly, what she's wearing isn't that far away.

This is boobplate.

Personally I would like to see a more Ezren-aged female Iconic - maybe a Granny Weatherwax type for the shaman or something? On the other hand, Iconics are supposed to be at the start of their career, and it's not that likely that someone that age would just be starting out; Ezren's kind of an exception.

I really hope the iconic Brawler is Sajni. That would be awesome.

Shadow Lodge

Erisana Liaomei wrote:
Personally I would like to see a more Ezren-aged female Iconic - maybe a Granny Weatherwax type for the shaman or something?

I would be so sold on that.

Scarab Sages

northbrb wrote:
I really want to see a small race used for one of the Combat classes, There are combat oriented Halflings and Gnomes. Just because their abilities are not the best for the classes does not mean they do not exist. A slayer or Brawler Gnome or Halfling would be really cool. Chang it up a little bit and dont make their iconics the best race for the class.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Swashbuckler is a Small race. Maybe a Halfling, since the Swashbuckler is female and I don't think there's an iconic female Halfling.

Personally, I really want to see a Gnome Bloodrager. They even have the stats for it (kind of) so it's not completely insane.


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Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Stephen Bond stuff

I hesitate to post this, since I'm worried about the iconics discussion getting too far removed, but that's definitely a radical decomposition you're quoting. Nothing wrong with that, but it's also a not really agreed upon even within feminism, so I think it's an unreasonable standard to hold Random Game Company Named Paizo to. But, then again, I'm a filthy academic liberal, so I'm probably wrong. ;)

(Aside for those not familiar with feminist jargon: radical here refers to a specific branch of feminism with specific beliefs, not just some abstract extreme)

Anyways, back to the topic at hand: I'm not familiar with Paizo's specific publication cycle (and there are too many variables for me to guess at it), but it's entirely possible that they're still writing art descriptions, or at least that they're sent out descriptions but are still awaiting/going over sketches. The turnover between approved sketch and final art can be quite quick (I've heard as fast as a month), so it's possible-if-unlikely that suggestions here make it into the final book.

Edit to add:

Erisana Liaomei wrote:
That is not boobplate. Plate armor is designed to be worn long-term, and so therefore needs to be something you can wear all day without getting sore.

...sorry, but no. Male armor is not form-fitting; it's designed to redirect blows away from the vitals. Further, there's more than enough room for breasts underneath it, as it needs to be able to dent without wounding the wearer. The differences between male and female armor account for shoulder-to-hip ratio, but not breasts. Boob-plate (or whatever you want to call what Seelah is wearing) redirects blows TO the vitals. Not only that, but there's no historical evidence of it (see this portrait of Joan of Arc and this takedown of the concept)


Erisana Liaomei wrote:
That is not boobplate.

I've always head boob plate used in reference to stuff like this, where metal breasts are molded into the armor.

Plate armor isn't skin-tight. Besides the room for padding (you're not going to wear bare metal on your skin all day), it would only be skin tight if it were custom fitted. That's far from the norm. So it's not an issue of fitting the wearer's body. Something like this is perfectly fine to wear.

Erisana Liaomei wrote:
Personally I would like to see a more Ezren-aged female Iconic - maybe a Granny Weatherwax type for the shaman or something?

I'd be down with that. Even better the shaman were to be old and not a human. I think an elderly dwarf woman would make a pretty good choice for an iconic.

Sczarni

Arcanist: Elf Male
Bloodrager: Dwarf Male
Brawler: Half-Orc Male
Hunter: Gnome Female
Investigator: Dwarf Female
Shaman: Human Male
Skald: Human Female
Slayer: Halfling Male
Swashbuckler: Half-Elf Female
Warpriest: Human Male

This is what I would like to see but I am trying not to pick the best races for the best classes. I do not like picking races that are the most optimized for the class.


northbrb wrote:
I play small warriors all the time, They dont feel like gimmicks to me. Halflings have warriors too.

That's awesome, but I meant more along the lines of core assumptions made by the community. Elves make good Rogues and Wizards with the rules because story wise, they have a lot of Rogues and Wizards!

The Creative Director is very driven by the idea that the rules are there to support the story.

The Art Orders went out already according to James Jacobs. They are heavily skewed towards humans because the setting is Humanocentric in order to make the Fantasy races more Fantastic when they show up.

Sczarni

I don't like humans, If I wanted to be human I would just be myself and not play the game.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Yup. We sent the art order for the iconics out several months ago. I've not yet seen any of the sketches for them, but hopefully soon. Just as with our other iconics, we have an equal split of male/female, and if I remember correctly, 5 or 6 are humans of various ethnicities.

In any event, their appearances have been locked in since before Gen Con.

(And the reason half or just above half are human is because Golarion is humanocentric. That's not going to change.)

Sczarni

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup. We sent the art order for the iconics out several months ago. I've not yet seen any of the sketches for them, but hopefully soon. Just as with our other iconics, we have an equal split of male/female, and if I remember correctly, 5 or 6 are humans of various ethnicities.

In any event, their appearances have been locked in since before Gen Con.

(And the reason half or just above half are human is because Golarion is humanocentric. That's not going to change.)

I can understand that. Thanks for the response

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Yup. We sent the art order for the iconics out several months ago. I've not yet seen any of the sketches for them, but hopefully soon. Just as with our other iconics, we have an equal split of male/female, and if I remember correctly, 5 or 6 are humans of various ethnicities.

In any event, their appearances have been locked in since before Gen Con.

(And the reason half or just above half are human is because Golarion is humanocentric. That's not going to change.)

Dont suppose a break down of the rest of the races would be possible?

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