**Official Query** Arcanist Revision

[Ashanderai]

I have a new concern with the new direction. I love the new direction and I am hopeful that the designers are already thinking of this, but if the arcanist is now going to have the ability to deconstruct magic items and spells, how will that affect divine magic items and spells? Probably the same, but I think it might need to be addressed, at least in the flavor text of this new ability; even if it is just a sentence or fitting a word or two in the right spot somewhere in the description.

[Chimon]

Quote:

Seeing magic for what it really is, the arcanist is able to pull apart magic, ripping the bonds that hold it together and forcing it to obey her will. It is not an easy task, but it allows her to use magic like no other... The arcanist goes from someone who is half wizard, half sorcerer to an arcane spellcaster that focuses on tinkering with the fundamental forces of magic, tearing apart the bonds and forging new ones with its power.

The arcanist will gain access to a wellspring of magic, an arcane reservoir. Calling upon this reservoir, the arcanist can create magic effects. As the arcanist gains levels, she learns new ways to spend this magic (selecting from a large list of features, like a rogue selects rogue talents).

What if the Arcanist can absorb or deflect one spell casted at him (either single-target or area) and deconstruct it into arcane reservoir points for future use (Maybe he gets points based on half the spell level, minimum 1)? Obviously this ability would be limited to number of uses per day (equal to an ability score).

For example, an enemy mage casts chain lightning (a level 6 wiz/sorc spell) at the Arcanist. The Arcanist deconstructs it into 3 (half spell level) "arcane points" that he could use on his next spell - e.g. Use 1 point to increase his next spell's DC, or use 2 points to increase the caster level/duration/range, or 3 points to add a metamagic feat to the next spell.
- If Ice Storm (lv4 spell, Arcanist would gain +2 points); If Acid Arrow (lv2) is cast, Arcanist would gain +1 point.

Just my 2c.

[Robert A Matthews]

If this truly is the direction the flavor of this class is heading, I think Use Magic Device should become a class skill for Arcanist.

[Shadar Aman]

Robert A Matthews wrote:

If this truly is the direction the flavor of this class is heading, I think Use Magic Device should become a class skill for Arcanist.

That might make sense. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like they "use" magic devices so much as "rip them open and drink their Magic Juice".

I wonder if Magic Juice tastes like Gummyberry Juice.

[Jr. Annalist]

I completely understand doing this to make it feel like a truly new class. The downside for me is that the original class would fit pretty seamlessly into any campaign world/cosmology/whatnot that already had Sorcerers and Wizards. The original almost seemed better to me than the two core classes it hybridized. The revision adds something new that, like the APG classes, might just not fit... and I don't picture myself using.

Any chance that the class customization rules at the end of the ACG will give nicely laid out advice on applying the Arcanist's casting style to the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and (in the opposite direction) Bard and Sorcerer?

[Mike Tuholski]

I think this new change has the potential to end cries for an artificer/engineer without devoting a whole class to the subject. If the class is now going to be getting rogue-talent-ish abilities that it can choose from, it would be easy enough to include enough talents that one could make an engineer if they wanted to without focusing the whole class on adjusting magic items.

For example, there could be an arcanist ability that allows the arcanist to deconstruct a +1 scimitar that the party has found but has no use for, thereby gaining a number of points in his arcane reservoir.

Another ability could allow the arcanist to spend reservoir points to bestow new magic properties on existing items. The combination of these abilities would essentially make an on-the-fly crafter/tinkerer that most people are looking for in the artificer.

You could easily scale it with existing price systems: say, for every 2000 gp worth of magic that the artificer deconstructs, they gain 1 point in their reservoir. They can then bestow 1000 gp worth of magic on an item by spending 1 point from their reservoir. Essentially it's the same as selling the magical item no one wants and using the money to enhance the fighter's sword, except the arcanist can do it without having to find a town large enough to do so or without having to invest in crafting feats.

Alternatively, these abilities could be temporary e.g. the fighter's sword only retains the arcanist's boost for 24 hours.

Just a few thoughts. I'm sure people can recommend more (and/or better) suggestions on how to add some artificer abilities to the new arcanist layout.

[Raiderrpg]

Been bouncing up and down in schoolgirlish glee waiting to see what you guys have in store here.

GLEE.

Wizard always felt a little too desperate for the 15 minute adventuring day, despite being my fave class- and Sorcerer never tickled my fancy, outside of the bloodlines; so it'll be fantastic to see what I can do as a staff-wielding, spellslinging, tome-hefting, wand shootin', wonderous item-tearing, card-carrying mage.

Arcanist has me more excited right now than even the Investigator, and that is saying something.

(( Plus, it's a step closer to my dream of a spellbook-carrying Bard, so that's a plus ;3 ))

All Glory to the Golem! >:D

[Jr. Annalist]

Raiderrpg wrote:

(( Plus, it's a step closer to my dream of a spellbook-carrying Bard, so that's a plus ;3 ))

Another reason for the rules on customization in the ACG to include guidance on switching existing classes casting types...

[Razh]

Im actually worried about the power level of the class. With its casting mechanic plus this new buff, arcanists may end up really replacing sorcerers and wizards. That said, I do like the direction it is going (way more interesting than before!), but paizo should be careful to not make him too strong.

[Alec Colasante]

Not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I was quite fond of the idea of a trained sorcerer, on the other hand, this new concept is also pretty cool. Well, either way, I trust that the class will be satisfactory at least.

P.S. If it does end up with artificer-esque abilities as some upthread have mentioned, than between this and APG I will have gotten all 3 classes I've really wanted out of Pathfinder (Swashbuckler, Artificer, and Alchemist). Which would be pretty awesome.

[Amersay Wolfbane]

Me and a few of my arcane caster friends were really excited about this class until we actually read it and then we were all "Do what now?" but this new direction should be able to give it the needed bump into greatness along *most* of the other classes that is in the ACG Playtest

[bilfdoffle]

Sounds interesting.

I actually liked how it was before. Here's to hoping it will appear as an archetype in the finished product.

[Sporge]

Why do people think this sounds like an artificer? I see no relation to crafting magic items in the flavor.

[Threeshades]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

The spellcasting mechanic is not something we are planning on changing.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Glad to hear it because i really liked that about the class.

[Sean K Reynolds]

RJGrady wrote:

The wizard is a software engineer. The arcanist is a hacker.

That's pretty much the analogy I used when we were working out this new concept.

[Cheapy]

Are we talking Kevin Mitnik hacker or Angelina Jolie hacker?

[Sean K Reynolds]

BTW, the goal is to still have a lot of flexibility with this class, both in terms of how it absorbs and spends power. The standard class might have an ability to use sorcerer bloodline powers (which should be appealing to people who liked the original version of this class), or there could be an archetype that skews more that way.

Anyway, we had a really good meeting brainstorming this concept, I think this really improves the flavor and role of the arcanist class.

[Ross Byers]

Sporge wrote:

Why do people think this sounds like an artificer? I see no relation to crafting magic items in the flavor.

For two reasons -

People tend to project their own desires onto sketchy information (and some people REALLY want an artificer)

And the assumption that if you can take something apart, you can rearrange it into something different.

[Dragon78]

If a wizard is a software engineer, an arcanist is a hacker, then what is a sorcerer?

[Raiderrpg]

Dragon78 wrote:

If a wizard is a software engineer, an arcanist is a hacker, then what is a sorcerer?

Script Kiddie?

[Cheapy]

Dev Manager.

[The black raven]

Cheapy wrote:

Are we talking Kevin Mitnik hacker or Angelina Jolie hacker?

If it keeps on casting with INT and not CHA ...

Well, you can guess which ;-)

Ross Byers wrote:

Sporge wrote:

Why do people think this sounds like an artificer? I see no relation to crafting magic items in the flavor.

For two reasons -

People tend to project their own desires onto sketchy information (and some people REALLY want an artificer)

And the assumption that if you can take something apart, you can rearrange it into something different.

Third reason : trying to lobby the Design team into producing the artificer class they have been clamoring for even before they heard of the ACG ;-)

[Brutedude]

I'd be very okay if the mechanics stayed the same, but the Spellbook itself got dropped or tweaked.

Wizards have always been defined by their spell book - just as Sorcerers are by their innate potential in their blood, and Witches by their patrons. The Magus uses one, but is clearly a wizard who has split his talents between spells and combat.

If that Arcanist is still unique enough it won't be an issue, but if he uses a spell book and it's just his mechanics that are somewhat different, than it does take away from the definition of Wizard.

[BigDTBone]

The black raven wrote:

Third reason : trying to lobby the Design team into producing the artificer class they have been clamoring for even before they heard of PFRPG;-)

I fixed that for you :D

[Shadar Aman]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

The wizard is a software engineer. The arcanist is a hacker.

That's pretty much the analogy I used when we were working out this new concept.

Which is probably why it feels like a variant of Wizard, since a lot of hackers are essentially software engineers with a specific specialty or talent.

Unlike a lot of people, I think this is awesome. Wizards are my favorite class; I've tried other classes, and none of them are as enjoyable to play (for me) as Wizard. So if the Arcanist ends up being an alternate Wizard, then that doubles the classes I have to choose from!

[nighttree]

I very much like the new direction....any idea how soon we will see the new version ???

[graywulfe]

Edenwaith wrote:

Couldn't find a better place to ask...

Once the playtest ends are you only stopping the acceptance of feedback and we allowed to continue advancing what we have or will playing hybrids in Society play be banned until the book comes out?

I would say ask this question in the PFS forums as the Dev crew has no control over PFS. I suspect that until the book comes out the playtest versions of the Hybrids will be allowed.

[Mikael Sebag]

I'm hoping that the arcanist as a base class won't be too artificer-y, despite the fact that so many are desperately hoping for that to be the case. Still, I wouldn't object to an archetype where magic items can be deconstructed and then refashioned into new items. It would fit the flavor of the arcanist, but with an emphasis on the materiality of magic and not the more fleeting nature of spells.

It's clear that there's nearly universal praise for the new concept. The bar has been raised for execution, however, so we may have to wait a little while.

I could also see the potential for a "mana addict" archetype, of sorts.

[Epic Meepo]

Sporge wrote:

Why do people think this sounds like an artificer? I see no relation to crafting magic items in the flavor.

Because arcanists can dismantle magic items to gain flexible magical resources, which is half of what an artificer does.

In fact, since this is going to be a talent-based class, I'm seeing at least three obvious paths an arcanist could follow:

1) Artificer talents which involve dismantling and reassembling magic items.

2) Blood focus talents which convert spell energy into temporary bloodline abilities.

3) Counterspelling talents which involve absorbing and re-purposing spells.

[Nildayre]

Mikael Sebag wrote:

I'm hoping that the arcanist as a base class won't be too artificer-y, despite the fact that so many are desperately hoping for that to be the case. Still, I wouldn't object to an archetype where magic items can be deconstructed and then refashioned into new items. It would fit the flavor of the arcanist, but with an emphasis on the materiality(sic) of magic and not the more fleeting nature of spells.

It's clear that there's nearly universal praise for the new concept. The bar has been raised for execution, however, so we may have to wait a little while.

I could also see the potential for a "mana addict" archetype, of sorts.

This is a great point. I'm personally hoping for something in the "mana addict" spectrum, which would add a lot of flavor, but similarly, I hope the talent system opens up the possibility of many archetypes without even being true archetypes.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Love the direction love the spell casting technique. Make sure they have less known spells than a sorcerer IMHO otherwise awesome.

[AndIMustMask]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Love the direction love the spell casting technique. Make sure they have less known spells than a sorcerer IMHO otherwise awesome.

afaik, they do with the lack of bloodline spells and racial FCB's though that could be changed.

[Leyren]

This sounds very interesting. I can imagine a lot of things someone could do with an arcane reservoir

- maybe DC +1 CL +1 to spells of a selected school as it was with the blood pool (would still match the concept, i think)
- reducing the required spell level for one metamagic feat by one
- temporarily "reprogramming" magic items to change one bonus into another bonus
- recharging magic wands
- recharging arcane pool (magus) or class abilities of other arcane classes that are usable 3+ability modifier times per day
- create some kind of arcane battery that makes a spell functioning even in antimagic fields (if that is possible)
- take a working spell from its place and put it somewhere else

The concept makes for a very powerful class. I hope this ability will be fun and usable but kind of restricted to make it balanced.
Maybe this works with
- low arcane reservoir
- limited uses to recharge the reservoir
- limitation by restricting the recharge mechanism by magic school
- caster level throw needed

ah, we'll see

[JRutterbush]

I would love to see them have some sort of ability to temporarily learn or prepare a spell that they dispel/eat with their class features. Maybe as a talent, or a normal feature. Something like:

"[Clever Name]: Whenever you successfully counter or dispel a spell effect or use [Name of Ability] to absorb [Name of Power Points] from a magic item that uses a spell effect, you can choose to replace any one spell you have prepared with that spell. The prepared spell you replace must be of a spell level equal to or higher than the one to be learned, and must be on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list."

[Lo&beholder]

Oh that makes sense in my head.

MAKE THE ARCANIST WORK OFF WISDOM.

The arcanist sounds like more than a force of personality and the sum of knowledge as opposed to experience and sheer will.

It doesn't favor wizard or sorcerer dipping.

AND MAKE IT THE FIRST CLASS THAT AGES YOU.

Sure first level bump your character one age category up.

-1 str.dex.con. +1 int.wis.cha.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Lo&beholder wrote:

Oh that makes sense in my head.

MAKE THE ARCANIST WORK OFF WISDOM.

The arcanist sounds like more than a force of personality and the sum of knowledge as opposed to experience and sheer will.

Yeessss, make it the best class to Theurge with a Cleric.

[Greylurker]

So Wizard = The Expert, the University Professor who knows all the theory and all the research and has memorized the books. He can go for hours telling you why it works, the theory behind it and the history of the spell going back 150 years.

Sorcerer = Total instinct. Doesn't know what or how he does it just does. Ask him why and he'll tell you "You twist this thingy and give it yank and go Zam and the Woosh and stuff explodes"

Arcanist = MacGuyver. He's knows the theory and the books plus he's got enough of that genius instinct to improvise with a handful of glass beads and a broken wand and some sticky sap from a pine tree.

[lantzkev]

I would love to see this turn into something that makes counterspelling just work better. Or perhaps talents/archetypes/feats that let it go that route.

Aside from the counterspelling focused school abjuration wizard... it's not an easy or worthwhile thing to do.

[-DM-]

This would be an excellent time to take a fresh stab at a truly effective counterspeller. I've always found counterspelling to be clunky and underpowered, which is a shame since it makes for some vivid arcane combat imagery. This new direction for the Arcanist offers a lot of really cool potential for deconstructing an opponent's spells before they can take their desired effect. I hope you guys take this reweaving of existing magical energies idea and really run with it, even as just a build option (like a choosable talent or series of talents - "Spell Absorbtion: Ready an action to counter an enemy spellcaster's spell. If you succeed, absorb some of that spells energy for blah blah blah". Not a spell of the same level but enough to make you feel like you didn't waste your action when you could have been doing tons of damage with lightning bolt). Expanding on counterspelling by way of talents or feats would be really really cool, much like the Dimensional Dervish tree made teleporting around like a boss as cool as it always should have been.

And while I'm at it, why not refer to those raw magical energies as the Weave? It's always been the best word for describing the energy that powers magic. I just love the idea of a caster pulling on the threads of the weave to assemble them into a spell.

[Cthulhudrew]

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

RJGrady wrote:

The wizard is a software engineer. The arcanist is a hacker.

That's pretty much the analogy I used when we were working out this new concept.

This makes me even more excited to see it, since it is sounding a bit more like the "spell hacker" sort of class I've long wanted to try and create, but couldn't quite figure out how to work the mechanics. You guys have much more experience at that sort of thing, so I'm eager to see what results.

One thing that I had sort of thought about in those terms would be somehow using metamagic, but on other people's spells and spell effects. I am not sure it sounds like you're going that way, but perhaps the framework you come up with will allow some tweaking to make such a thing possible.

Similarly, in response to the questions about artificers- I don't think this class will probably end up that direction, but it might lend itself to an archetype of that nature, or at least (like above) provide a framework on which to hang an artificer's abilities down the road.

Whether we see this in a playtest or at the time of the ACG release, I am looking forward to it!

[DarthPinkHippo]

Add my name to the long list that believes that the flavor is perfect for a wisdom caster.

[lantzkev]

ugh please no to wisdom, they need to be clever and smart.

[Duiker]

One thing that has always impressed me in fiction is that it is not the most intelligent wizard who wins in many works, it's the one with will. The Dresden Files is a good example that is quite explicit about how it is a wizard's will that controls the world.

I've always been frustrated with the passivity of spell combat in Pathfinder, in the way that the caster simply declares he's doing something and then the enemy rolls a save. This has seemed much less dynamic (note, not less powerful) than martial characters.

This new version of arcanist seems like an interesting sort of class to give a more dynamic approach to casting, in which willpower is used actively. For instance, the enemy tosses a spell and the arcanist burns a spellslot to break it down. Have an added mechanic perhaps in which success is determined by rolling opposing will saves. Tack on something like CMB rules, in which winning by more than five turns the spell back on the enemy or some such. Maybe have a gambling element such that if you're beaten by more than ten, the effect is doubled on you.

[nighttree]

I really like the "hacker" analogy.
Someone that can jump in and twist existing spell effects cast by others.

Although I understand that there are a lot of Artificer fans...
I would rather see that saved as an archytype.

[Cheapy]

Clearly, they should be Strength based casters, since they tear magic apart.

[Zark]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Now this is the kind of concept that all the new classes should be approached from. Take an existing concept and give it an interesting an unique twist.

This feel much more like the wow effect we got from seeing the Magus for the first time. I can't wait to see what you come up with.

+1

This new Arcanist sounds very cool.

My wish is that Jason takes The Skald and the Warpriest back to the drawing board the same way.

I wouldn't mind if the Swashbuckler, Slayer, Hunter and most of the other clases get some serious rework.

Only classes I find really cool are the Bloodrager and the Investigator.

[Aelfborn]

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

\Perhaps the horse has left the barn, but I like the idea of someone with an innate spark who studied and honed his magic. This kind of reminded me of a "harry Potter" niche.

I thought the same thing. My only complaint about the Arcanist was not liking the ability to tap into the bloodline power.

Consumer of magic, however, doesn't appeal to me as a concept. Oh, well. Guess I will wait to see what Jason and company come up with and see if they change my mind.

[lantzkev]

Something that also might be interesting too is if there's a fundamental difference in divine vs arcane, that they different bonuses/effects based off of which magic they are dismanteling or siphoning.

For instance, say I use "Siphon Magic" (spell I made up, acts as dispell magic but is exclusive to arcaniss and gives them half the lvl in divine or arcane feedback depending on the spell siphoned)

then you have a table you can use to augment a spell siphoned this way. Basically appropriate metamagic feats, or increase variables etc, caster level, etc.

Another option is that they can have certain abilities that if they use a spell siphon they can convert it into a certain primal/arcane energy type that has two profiles based off arcane/divine and it's own ratios/efficiencies.

Then there's the issue of range, it'd be an interesting way of PCs being able to control the game more and enable their team in a whole new way.

Like say that evil cleric is known, they might be able to with a spell and an ability change the negative into positive, or flip the effect from harm to heal...

Maybe a Full round cast, then move sustain for at range, or a immediate within a certain range.

Perhaps also if the spell has components are not they become more "grounded" with that caster, ie focused or not.

[Michael Sayre]

I'm excited to hear about the changes to the thematics and ancillary mechanics, but I'm still skeptical of the balance in the class if the core casting mechanic remains the same. With full progression casters, the Bloodlines and School abilities are pretty much just garnish. It's the spells and casting methods that define the class. In this, the Arcanist still seems like he's getting the best of both the Wizard and the Sorcerer and regardless of the peripherals I have a hard time seeing a reason to not play an Arcanist over either a Sorcerer or Wizard. It's fairly easy to paint over the thematics of those extra abilities with whatever fluff you want and come back to a core class that gets the best of spontaneous and prepared casting....

[Cheapy]

Sean did necro a thread a couple months ago asking why a forum poster was disappointed about the lack of abjuration magic in UM... and asking what people would like to see. And itssounds like he was the one who proposed this new take.

How intriguing.