A Warpriest is dedicated to battle moreso than anything else. He may not be concerned with particularities of the deity. Just whichever gets him back into the fight soonest.Ok, this is an out-of-left-field kind of idea, and there are probably a thousand reasons (which you guys will explain to me in detail) why it wouldn't work, but what if they took this idea and ran with it? What if the warpriest was primarily dedicated to battle, and took a pragmatic, pantheistic approach to beseeching the gods for the power he needs?
This is a very rough sketch, but what I'm envisioning is something similar to the Shaman's Wandering Spirit ability. When the warpriest prepares spells for the day, he selects a deity to pray to for his divine power. The warpriest may select two of that deity's blessings as his blessings for that day. He may select an alignment blessing only if his alignment matches that domain. While a warpriest is under a deity's blessing, he must follow that deity's code of conduct. Grossly violating this code of conduct results in the warpriest losing access to his blessings until he prepares spells again.
Mechanically, this would give the warpriest some additional versatility (particularly if the suggestion to add domain spells to the blessings is adopted). Flavor-wise, I think this idea is particularly exciting. It gives us a divine caster who is effectively unaligned, but who still receives his power from the gods, rather than from a divine concept or from nature. It also takes an odd class "feature", the lack of alignment restriction by deity (which admittedly may be an oversight), and gives it an in-world explanation.
I hate to even type the words, but, sacred weapon: Decoupling the warpriest from a single deity would necessarily make the favored weapon=sacred weapon idea unworkable. My suggestion would be to alter sacred weapon to be applicable to one weapon in which you have proficiency when you gain the ability. If you wanted to take an EWP at...
I'm diggin it. I'd even be cool with coupling the Blessings to be the Favored Weapons for Sacred Weapon. That way you could pick a main weapon and sidearm for when those really nasty situations show up.
Im a huge fan of the Shaman's Wandering Spirit ability. I'd actually like it if the Warpriest was grounded with one Blessing and could change the other as the situation fits. That way theres still an underlying principle the Warpriest dedicates himself to.
This Warpriest would be a bit more flexible in his Dogma, adopting the powers he needs when he needs them. The Gods seeing the useful tool he could be grant him the powers. I like that aspect as many gods have far reaching goals that even the more evil gods have a use for a Good Warpriest. Like eliminating an upstart so that a new one can fill the power gap.
Im a huge fan of the Shaman's Wandering Spirit ability. I'd actually like it if the Warpriest was grounded with one Blessing and could change the other as the situation fits. That way theres still an underlying principle the Warpriest dedicates himself to.
Yeah, I was thinking that about that too, but I felt like I'd already put up a wall of text. That option would be pretty neat, really, kind of a blend between worshipers of an ideal and those of a deity. The only problem I could see with a second sacred weapon based on a deity would be those cases where the favored weapon is exotic, but I guess that could be dealt with by a temporary EWP while under the deity's blessing. I don't know, maybe too strong?
And I agree about the gods. The gods could chose to empower an oppositely-aligned warpriest to further their own goals. They work in mysterious ways, after all...
exotic weapons are pretty tame for the most part. There are only a couple of stand out exotics and I don't think there are any gods who favor them. Maybe there's an elf god that favors curve blades? That'd be cool.
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War priest
Like that they have heavy armor proficiency, even if I think it 2 handed weapons makes it useless, I like having it at start and not having to pay a feat for the option in case I go 1 handed weapon style, despite how often I find every 1 handed weapon is negligible unless it is a spell strike, or old 3.5 stuff like arcane channel, martial maneuvers, or psionically charged. Sacred weapon/blessings or Inq bane helps though they are so few times per day that it is not much.
I Like that they can use all martial weapons but requiring class features to use only the god's favored weapon really goes in the opposite direction of having all martial weapons. How many gamers do you really expect to play a war priest and be satisfied using a dagger, star knife, or other non worthwhile weapon? Especially when they are proficient with all martial weapons. If you want to give us a combatant, let us use decent weapons, we are already hamstrung with 3/4 BAB & 2/3 casting & reduced channeling.
I really dislike that this class feels too confined in that you have to marry both weapon and blessings. Again, let us use the weapon we want.
Please revise the sacred weapon/armor to work more like a magus. This nonsense of not being able to change until the next day is garbage. At least let people change it in the next combat. It would be ok to restrict it to only the weapon you have weapon focus in. Allow double weapons to spend a +2 bonus as a +1/+1 bonus if they want. Are you finding that the magus freedom to change energy type from one battle to the next is too good? If not, give the war priest the same freedom. Worried about the same thing for energy resistance? They are going to fail the save and still take damage, resistance is not the same as immunity nor does it increase the chance of passing the save. Why not give the war priest the same formula for activations per day? It would be easier to remember when 2 classes use the same method.
I hope aspect was supposed to be Swift, what 20 level PC do you expect to stand around activating that as a standard action?
Blessings:
Please state that allies/another creature could be the war priest itself
I like that some of these are swift actions but some are still standard actions and too costly action economy wise, consider making some of them when done on oneself reduced to a move action or maybe swift.
At 10th level, I do not want to spendn 2 standard actions to charge up both my weak and strong abilities. If you keep so many f them as standard action charging, people who spend four turns charging both weak & small on both domains deserve to be criticized by their teammates.
Again, more stuff charging up as a move action would go a long way in making them worthwhile, even if in a less powerful way. Or maybe reduce the activation from standard to move at 6th level.
Alignment strikes would be better if they actually bypassed DR at maybe 6th or 10th level in addition to their bonus damage.
I though about 1/2 the blessing were garbage and 1/2 were nice.
My favorite were war mind, healing, trickery, destruction in that order.
Air-will heavy armor slow you down?
I like the strength surge ability but it does not play friendly with havering a magic weapon or strength belt for those attack rolls does it? If they could stack, I would like it much better.
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So, to actually do what the Devs have asked for, I've decided to run quick little scenario. I'll be running a solo Level 7 Warpriest of Sarenrae through 2 CR 4 and one CR 5 encounters during a single in-game day. The encounters won't take place in a blank field but areas appropriate for the created scenario. I'll report both what happens during the event as well my impression of the class and how it was able to handle the situations presented for it. The character will also be expected to do complete some basic tasks that he would be expected to in a dungeon. None of the creatures will be too terribly optimized and the monsters stats won't be changed from their bestiary entries. I'll also post stats for creatures I create, and links to the ones that I don't. I do intend to run the creatures as intelligently (IE: the dragon won't land) as I can. I’ll be breaking down the combat so that you could read through and keep up with the actions/flow, but i won’t be including grid-point by grid-point positioning information.
The Scenario
The priest has been tasked with retrieving some stolen items from a chest in an old temple ruin that is currently a Basilisk's lair. The stash is relatively small and lightly protected besides the nearby hostile inhabitants that sometimes wander through the area. It is located in the mountains West of the Katapesh desert, so the Warpriest may need to be prepared for less than hospitable conditions during the 2 hour trek back and forth. You've heard rumors that some gnoll mercenaries have been hired to prevent you from achieving your goal, and that they left for the region the evening before.
How I'm approaching it
Although I can prepare most of my spells for combat, I'll need to leave a few slots open to prepare utility spells when the time arises. To make sure I don't become fatigued during the journey (either from the hot day or cold night), I'll need to prepare endure elements. Other than that, I should have plenty of variety in the spells I can prepare.
The 6
Prescenario/Prep
1. 2 Gnoll mercenaries at the mouth of the cave CR 4
2. Climbing a cliff face
3. 2 Ships in a bottle CR 4
4. Locked Door
5. Basilisk CR 5
6 Trapped Chest CR 3
Init +12 ; Senses , Perception +13
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 63 (7d8+28)
Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +8
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: +1 Flaming Scimitar +14 (1d6+8/18-20 x2, +1d6 fire)
Ranged: MW Longbow +13 (1d8/x3) 100 ft.
Spells
Level 0 (∞/day)
Create Water, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, _____
Level 1 (5/day)
Divine Favor, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, _____
Level 2 (4/day)
Aid, Summon Monster II, _____, _____
Level 3 (2/day)
Prayer, _____
Special Attacks Channel Energy 2d6 (DC 13 Will) 3/day
Str 8, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 23
Feats Weapon Finesss, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Dervish Dance, Combat Casting, Step Up, Quick Draw, Lunge
Traits Reactionary, Flame of the Dawnflower
Skills Perception +13, Climb +4, Perform (Dance) +2, Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Swim +4
SQ Blessings (Minor) (Good and Fire), Focus Weapon (Scimitar), Orisons, Channel Energy 2d6, Sacred Weapon +1, Sacred Armor +1
Equipment/Loot
+1 Mirrored Mithral Kikko Armor
+1 Flaming Scimitar
MW Longbow, 20 arrows
Handy Haversack
Belt of +2 Dex, Headband of +2 Wis
Prescenario/Prep Well, it's going to be a long, hot trek across the desert, so to keep from being fatigued or exhausted during the journey, SD casts endure elements to protect him from the sun. The spell lasts 24 hours.
Encounter 1: 2 Gnoll Mercs As SD walks towards the location of the cave entrace, he moved around a hill and saw smoke rising from behind the rocks in front of him. It was clear, the gnolls had already arrived and were waiting for him. SD drew his scimitar and walked proceeded towards the cave, trying to spot the gnolls before they managed to ambush him.
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, Perception +3
AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 23 (2d10+8)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: MW Guisarme +7 (2d4+6/x3)
Ranged: Javelin +4 (1d6+4), 3 ammo
Reach: 10 ft.
Special Attacks Power Attack +7 (2d4+9/3)
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +6; CMD 18
Feats Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Skills Perception +2, Acrobatics -2, Stealth -2, Intimidate +3
SQ Pole Fighting
Equipment/Loot MW Fullplate and guisarme. Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
Gnoll 2: Archer Fighter 2
Init +5; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, Perception +3
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+4 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 23 (2d10+8)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1
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Speed: 30 ft.
Ranged: MW Composite Longbow +9 (1d8+1/x3) 115 ft.
Melee: Scimitar +3 (1d6/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks Rapidshot +7/+7 (1d8+1/x3)
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +2; CMB +3; CMD 18
Feats Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid-Shot
Skills Perception +3, Acrobatics +7, Stealth +7, Intimidate +3
SQ Hawkeye, Armor Training 1
Equipment/Loot MW Composite Longbow and Chain Shirt. Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds
First Round
Gnoll 1 Double Moves into position
Gnoll 2 moved off the cliff and readied an action to shoot at the Warpriest
SD casts Divine Favor and moved forward
Gnoll 2 readied action triggers: Attack! Attack misses. No Damage
Second Round
Gnoll 1 moves in and attacks with guisarme. Attack hits. 12 Damage
SD 5 ft. steps in and attacks. Attack hits. Deals 12+1 fire damage.
Gnoll 2 uses Rapidshot. Attack 1 hits, Attack 2 misses. Attack 1 deals 8 damage.
Third Round
Gnoll 1 uses a 5ft. step. SD uses Step Up. Gnoll 2 uses Pole Fighting and attacks. Attack Misses
SD Attacks. Attack hits. 11+2 fire damage. Gnoll 1 is slain
Gnoll 2 uses Rapidshot. Attack 1 misses. Attack 2 misses
Fourth Round
SD doublemoves into melee range of Gnoll 2. Can’t charge for the rough terrain
Gnoll 2 takes a 5 ft. step. SD Uses Step Up. Gnoll 2 takes 2 shots. AOO! AOO misses. Rapidshot. Attack 1 misses. Attack 2 Hits. 6 damage.
Fifth Round
SD Attacks. Attack Misses
Gnoll 2 takes a 5 ft. step. SD Uses Step Up. Gnoll 2 takes 2 shots. AOO! AOO hits. 13+6 fire damage Rapidshot. Attack 1 hits. 3 damage. Attack 2 misses.
Sixth Round
SD Attacks. Crit Threat. Crit Confirmed. 26+4 fire damage. Gnoll 2 Dead
SD finds 2 cure moderate wounds potions and uses both of them. SD Heals 27 HP.
SD’s health at the end of the fight: 61/63
Gnoll’s Average d20 Roll: 11
SD’s Average d20 Roll: 10.4
1 spell used
Encounter 2: Climbing the wall
On the path to the stash, there is a large stone wall with some small handholds that the warpriest is going to need to climb (DC 20). The wall is 30 ft. tall, so it will take at least two success for SD to successfully climb it. Failure by 5 or more slides the priest 10 ft. back down the wall. It’s a simple skill challenge. Trying to see how long this takes.
22 -> moves up 15 ft.
10 -> Moves down 10 ft.
10 -> Moves back to the bottom
Alright, let’s see if there are any spells that could help here. Summon Monster III has an Ape with 15 strength and a +14 to climb. That would probably do the trick. The other option is a giant centipede at summon monster II, but that creature isn’t large enough. I’ll try climbing the wall a couple more times.
22 -> Up 15 ft.
8 -> Down 10 ft.
21 -> Up 15 ft.
7 -> Down 10 ft. (10 ft. up)
22 -> Up 15 ft.
12 -> Down 10 ft.
Yeah, screw it. SD meditates on the nature of life, the universe, and everything, and prepares summon monster 3. He uses it to summon an Ape, and holds onto the Ape as it climbs the rock face.
Ape climb attempts:
32 -> Up 15 ft.
19 -> no progress
33 -> Up 15 ft.
1 Spell used.
This isn't a serious problem (what the guy in heavy armor can't climb a wall? shocker), but it's still a problem. If you're going to be focused on melee, you need a way to targets that aren't 40 ft. away from you, and if you're a ranged combatant, you need a way to get away from the melee guy.
Encounter 3: Flying Bottles
The priest walked over the cliff and the ape disappeared back to the plane it had been summoned from. SD continued his progess towards the Basilisk's lair, and came across a large open area where he noticed that there were two flying bottles that contained ships in them. On the other side of the cliff was a wooden door leading to what was probably the creatures lair. The two ships in bottles flew aimlessly until they noticed him and their ballista began to load bolts as they flew higher into the air.
Round 1:
SD: Sheaths Scimitar. Draws Bow. Uses Flame Strike power. Fails to identify creatures/their DR.
SB1: Flies up/Forward. Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Flies up/Forward. Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 2:
SD: Casts Divine Favor
SB1: Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 3:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. 7+2 fire damage. 4 Damage to target
SB1: Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 4:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. 8+4 fire damage. 7 Damage to target
SB1: Ranged Attack. Hit. 2 damage.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 1 damage.
Round 5:
SD:
SB1: Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 6:
SD: Ranged Attack. Miss
SB1: Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 7:
SD: Full round move action torwards the door
SB1: Moves forward. Ranged Attack. Miss
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss
Round 8:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. Kills SB1. Moves towards door.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 5 damage
Round 9:
SD: Moves towards door. Ranged Attack. Hit. 4+2 fire damage. 2 damage to target
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 6 damage.
Round 10:
SD: Moves to door. Door is locked. Ranged Attack. Hit. 6+2 fire damage. 3 damage to target
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss.
Round 11:
SD: Fire Strike Ends. Ranged Attack. Hit. 7 damage. 2 damage to target.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 3 damage.
Round 12:
SD: Divine Favor Ends. Ranged Attack. Hit. 7 damage. 2 damage to target.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 2 damage.
Round 13:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. 5 damage. 0 damage to target.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 1 damage.
Round 14:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. 7 damage. 2 damage to target.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Miss.
Round 15:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. 5 damage. 0 damage to target.
SB2: Ranged Attack. Hit. 4 damage.
Round 16:
SD: Ranged Attack. Hit. Crit!. 13 damage. 8 damage to target. Target killed.
Total damage taken: 26
Spells used: 1
Daily Powers Used 1:
The Warpriest does remind me of a fighter, when it comes to being totally out of their element if their combat style doesn’t work.
Encounter 5: Getting in
The Warpriest has found the entrance to the lair, but of course the door is locked, and he is injured. The warpriest will need to take stock of his status and prepare to fight the beast.
Check for traps: Perception Check: 22: You don’t find any traps (there aren’t any)
Use all 3 uses of channel energy. Gains 6, 11, and 6 health. For a total of 58 current hp.
Smash and smash and smash the door until it breaks open
Encounter 6: Basilisk
The way is open, and SD moved through the doorway, looking inside to see the lair. Besides a chest that is lit by sunlight coming in from a hole in the wall, the rest of the room is dark, and there is no sign of the Basilisk. Activates his scimitar’s flame property to help light the room and casts Aid on him self and walks into the room. As he looks to the right, he stares into the eyes of the beast itself.
Init +12 ; Senses , Perception +13
AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 63 (7d8+28) + 14 TempHP
Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +8
Speed: 20 ft.
Melee: +1 Flaming Scimitar +14 (1d6+8/18-20 x2, +1d6 fire)
Ranged: MW Longbow +13 (1d8/x3) 100 ft.
Spells
Level 0 (∞/day)
Create Water, Guidance, Detect Magic, Light, Vigor
Level 1 (5/day)
Level 2 (4/day)
Aid, Summon Monster II, Spiritual Weapon, Find Traps
Level 3 (2/day)
Prayer,
Special Attacks Channel Energy 2d6 (DC 13 Will) 3/day
Str 8, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +4; CMD 23
Feats Weapon Finesss, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Dervish Dance, Combat Casting, Step Up, Quick Draw, Lunge
Traits Reactionary, Flame of the Dawnflower
Skills Perception +13, Climb +4, Perform (Dance) +2, Diplomacy +10, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Swim +4
SQ Blessings (Minor) (Good and Fire), Focus Weapon (Scimitar), Orisons, Channel Energy 2d6, Sacred Weapon +1, Sacred Armor +1
Equipment/Loot
+1 Mirrored Mithral Kikko Armor
+1 Flaming Scimitar
MW Longbow, 20 arrows
Handy Haversack
Belt of +2 Dex, Headband of +2 Wis
Surprise Round: Basilisk makes gaze attack. SD tries to avert eyes. Fails. Makes Fort Save. Passes.
Round 1:
SD: Uses Sacred Weapon to give the Scimitar the Keen property. SD Averts eyes using mirrored armor. Moves into melee range.
Basilisk: Attacks SD: Double 20 Crit. 16 damage.
Round 2:
SD Attacks with scimitar. Hit. Roll for concealment. Hit. 12+2 fire damage
Basilisk: Attacks. Hit. 5 damage.
Round 3:
SD: Attacks. Hit. Roll concealment. Miss. Reroll concealment (mirrored armor). Miss.
Basilisk: Attacks. Hit. 8 damage
Round 4:
SD: Attacks. Hit. Roll concealment. Miss. Reroll concealment. Miss.
Basilisk: Attacks. Hit. 10 damage.
Round 5:
SD: Attacks. Hit. Roll concealment. Miss. Reroll concealment. Hit. 12+1 fire damage
Basilisk: Attacks. Hit. 10 damage.
Round 6:
SD: Attacks. Hit. Roll concealment. Miss. Reroll conceament. Miss.
Basilisk: Attacks. Miss!
Round 7:
SD: Attacks. Miss. (I tried to unofficially reroll this two times. Got two 1s.) Sacred Weapon ends. 5 ft. step back.
Basilisk: 5 ft step in. Attacks. Hit. 7 damage.
Round 8:
SD: 5 ft. step back. Casts Obscurring Mist.
Basilisk: 5ft step in. Attacks. Hit. Roll concealment. Hit. 8 damage.
Round 9:
SD: Exits mist. Casts Spirtual Weapon Cure Moderate Wounds. Gains 18 hitpoints.
Basilisk: Exits mist. Outside of melee range.
Round 10:
SD: Casts Divine Favor. Enters Melee Range. Averts Eyes.
Basilisk: Attacks. Miss.
Round 11:
SD: Attack. Nat 20. Crit confirm. Roll concealment. Hit. 27+4 fire damage. Basilisk dies.
Spells used: 5
Daily Powers used: Sacred Weapon expended, Channel Energy Expended.
HP remaining: 31
2. Unfortunately sacred weapon never really came into play, and I’ll actually go so far as to say it was pretty much useless throughout every combat. It took too long to throw on, and had about as much effect as the spells I already had for the day. People have earlier posted about how it’s a trap ability because you lose it if you don’t use a bad weapon.
I disagree, it’s a trap option to care about it at all. You have buff spells that are standard actions, Just use them instead and use whatever weapon you want. Favored Weapon is worse than a negative, it doesn’t look to be much of anything at all. It’s duration is terrible, its bonus is mediocre for most of the game, and can be directly replaced with money, or a good use of buff spells.
When the revised class comes out, I hope that this changes.
Encounter 7: Trapped Chest
The beast is slain, and now all that is left is a chest with a broken lock and a journey back through the desert to your hirer.
(There is a trap on the chest. It’s a CR 3 Acid Arrow trap)
Step 1. Cast spell Find Traps. Roll Perception to find traps. 31. DC is 27, the trap is found.
Step 2. Summon Monster II. Summon a creature. The creature walks up and sets off he trap.
Step 3. Grab stuff and walk out of there.
Non 0 level spells left at the end of the day: 1 and I was being stingy
HP at the end of the journey: 31 w/ chance to cure serious wounds
Final thoughts
Going to take a break and come back and add these in. The Takeaways are my immediate reaction to each section. I want to decompress and try and get a bigger picture based on what I expected going in, and what happened during this little run. Feel free to tell me how I was doinitwrong, or what your takeaway from all that is.
Are you going to call everything you either don't like, or not getting for free, a "tax"?
Short answer: No. Also, I don't like penguins. They're a bunch of dirty taxes.
But no seriously, whether I like it or not doesn't have to do with me calling it a tax.
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@ Squirrel:
Overall good playtest.
1) Your gnolls did indeed get very lucky, they should have almost not hit you at all given your stats.
2) I think the climbing encounter says far more about Dex-based builds trying to climb than it does about the Warpriest specifically. Also, personally I would take 20 on the wall rather than burn one of my highest-level spell slots before even reaching the boss. Consider that you could have used that slot for something like Channel Vigor or Extended Bear's Endurance instead, which would have been extremely useful against anybody in there and especially against the basilisk.
3) I'm confused why you wasted the first round buffing when you had a door to kick down instead. Especially when two of your spells (Prayer and DF) would have helped you bust in that much faster. Buff outside and open the fight with a charge I say. Aid in particular, lasting 70 rounds, is something you should have cast outside.
Ugh. I post final thoughts and instead of properly editing the post I'm taken to some random page on the website. So here's the short of it.
1. Miss chance can be frustrating, as can an enemy that refuses to miss.
2. Sacred Weapon isn't worth the effort to take advantage of it. Just cast buff spells on yourself or allies. It's action investment is too high, for a reward so small, and a duration so short. Just use the weapon you want. I was worried, along with others that I would have to use my Scimitar with this to be effective. The Blessings I picked were actually more important.
3. I'd rather play a Cleric than a Warpriest, and rather play a Warpriest than a Fighter. I was getting the most of spells when it came to accomplishing most things, and more imporantly, a fighter would just get worn down without the ability to heal itself, and would always set of the trap in the room and get acid in his face. Warpriest just doesn't bring enough to the table yet to be a reasonable or interesting replacement for the cleric.
4. I couldn't afford to spend any spells on debuffing or control. I basically had to use everything on summon monster + Buffs + rare utility spell. I basically relied on buff spells to get through every combat, and summon monster to add versatility out of it. The class can certainly solve problems outside of combat, but it's going to require that the player
A) Leaves spell slots open during the day
B) Is remotely creative with summon monster
C) Is sparing with his use of spells in combat.
You can't go around buffing multiple people during combat, or buffing yourself multiple times in every fight.
@Psyren. Yeah, both the gnolls and basilisk did incredibly well. The Basilisk didn't roll below 15 for the first 5 rounds.
2. I almost never take 20 on skill checks because I'm dumb like that. Was worried for a moment that I wouldn't be able to find a solution to climbing a wall. *facepalm*
I was also gleaming that lack of mobility not just from the wall, but from the problems with the ships in a bottle (good god that fight was a slog). The class has no way to deal with flying enemies other that being bad with a longbow until level 10, without buying gear. To be fair, that's a problem every melee class faces, but it's still one I think should be avoided with this class.
3. Meh, it definitely wasn't my best handled fight. I figured as much and didn't let it negatively affect my view of the class. I do want to say I casted Aid before I walked into the room, I just didn't use the sacred blade power until combat started.
I Like that they can use all martial weapons but requiring class features to use only the god's favored weapon really goes in the opposite direction of having all martial weapons.
Yeah, this is my main problem. Basically, sacred weapon and proficiency with all martial weapons don't work together. A warpriest is proficient with all martial weapons, but it can't use sacred weapon with any weapon. Again, I don't mind free weapon focus with the favored weapon. I just think it's silly to give it a class feature which essentially works against another class feature.
Then again, it's kind of a moot point since I haven't actually found sacred weapon to be remotely useful when trying out the class, whether I used it as written or let myself use it on whatever weapon I wanted. I guess my complaint is more on "the principle of thing."
A related, more pertinent complaint is that sacred weapon just isn't too helpful, as it stands. I was surprised by how small the bonuses were at any given leven and even more surprised by how short the duration was.
Hopefully, Paizo will read the writing on the wall and get rid of this annoying class feature before the playtest ends.Best of luck with that - but I would be prepared to be disappointed.
Some people can't be disappointed by the final version of the warpriest because the actual version isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
So if at all I can get surprised in a positive way.Edit: Except as a very powerful dip. It's even better in this than the fighter. And classes should be balanced to be played, not dipped.
A related, more pertinent complaint is that sacred weapon just isn't too helpful, as it stands. I was surprised by how small the bonuses were at any given leven and even more surprised by how short the duration was.
Eh, with the benefit of Weapon Focus it's roughly on par with the benefit you get from the Inquisitor's Judgement ability, though the duration does suck until later levels.
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I'm reasonably sure there is a point hiding behind those two words but I'm afraid it's eluding me at the moment.Both ways.And in case they hadn't thought to address that, Scavion caught it and pointed it out in the class feedback thread - which is exactly the kind of feedback I would assume they're looking for.
Let's try to keep this positive and limit the sarcasm, shall we?
As in Scavion's comment was negative and sarcastic, so if you are going to call out for a peace treaty while one side is still shooting, that outcome isn't realistic.
And saying "I'm reasonably sure there is a point" in a post calling for less sarcasm...
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This is true. The same apply for why Iomedae will not grant power to such a person.Sorry Price of Knives, do NOT mean to imply there cannot be a balance between both and I love to have characters that pack a punch as well.
However the idea of having a LE divine character follower a LG god because XYZ text did not say otherwise is a CLASSIC example of why such comments are made.
It was not directed at any roleplayer that like to pack a punch and have the best PC they can craft and I apologize to anyone that falls into that category that was insulted by my statement.
You do know there could be a myriad of reasons the LE character could worship Iomedae right?
Because if you don't use your sacred weapon you don't get spells.
And whenever a cleric is in trouble, his god comes don't and grants them power to the weapon they are using.
Yup.
Because not getting a specific power because you decided not to do what your God favors doesn't make sense...
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I won't argue the clerical / Warpriest being within 1 step of alignment except to say, not at my table, unless you have one hell of a character concept.
You won't have to, it will be in the final version because apparently saying "A warpriest’s deity influences his alignment" requires more concrete spelling out for some.
I'm reasonably sure there is a point hiding behind those two words but I'm afraid it's eluding me at the moment.Both ways.And in case they hadn't thought to address that, Scavion caught it and pointed it out in the class feedback thread - which is exactly the kind of feedback I would assume they're looking for.
Let's try to keep this positive and limit the sarcasm, shall we?
As in Scavion's comment was negative and sarcastic, so if you are going to call out for a peace treaty while one side is still shooting, that outcome isn't realistic.
And saying "I'm reasonably sure there is a point" in a post calling for less sarcasm...
I don' think I've said a word to you in the past 3 pages. The only thing I can think of to be construed negative is when I pointed out the missing alignment restrictions text. But please enlighten me, How was I being "negative and sarcastic" and I might be able to explain to you why I said what I said. The only reason I continue to argue in this thread is because I want this class to be a solid Battle Cleric replacement as that is what I believe the Devs are shooting for in concept. And I don't believe tying the entire class concept to a single weapon based on a line in the deity's portfolio that is more often not justified. Thats the sort of thing an archetype is for, narrow concepts.
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I don' think I've said a word to you in the past 3 pages. The only thing I can think of to be construed negative is when I pointed out the missing alignment restrictions text. But please enlighten me, How was I being "negative and sarcastic" and I might be able to explain to you why I said what I said. The only reason I continue to argue in this thread is because I want this class to be a solid Battle Cleric replacement as that is what I believe the Devs are shooting for in concept. And I don't believe tying the entire class concept to a single weapon based on a line in the deity's portfolio that is more often not justified. Thats the sort of thing an archetype is for, narrow concepts.
I was referencing where this started, a few pages back, but I bolded on this one. Well...bolded one as you already bolded a negative comment for me. :)
We both want this to be a solid battle cleric. We disagree on how to get there. I want lots and lots of bonuses to fighting, but to do that without stepping on the toes of other classes you need to have limiting factors.
I think it is ingenious to have bonuses given to you from your god for using the weapon your God favors. I think that will create logical encouragement for the followers of a deity to use the favored weapon AND also ensure that this class doesn't out fighter a fighter by having bonuses to every weapon while the fighter generally focuses on one weapon.
I think the secondary weapons will be fine with straight cleric buffs, and if they aren't as good as the primary...that is why they are secondary.
I think the feat suggestion someone else made to pick another weapon as your sacred weapon is a more than reasonable compromise, and I think those who have said it is unacceptable are being unreasonable.
And to be fair, many on your side have said it is a reasonable compromise they would accept, but they would want more.
Having the bonus apply arbitrarily gives no incentive for the person to choose a favored weapon. I would even be fine in the compromise thread if the favored weapon got the flat bonus but all of the other features could be applied to any weapon.
But there seems to be this line in the sand for several of you about having any bonus at all apply exclusively to the sacred weapon, and I fundamentally disagree with that position.
I'm reasonably sure there is a point hiding behind those two words but I'm afraid it's eluding me at the moment.Both ways.And in case they hadn't thought to address that, Scavion caught it and pointed it out in the class feedback thread - which is exactly the kind of feedback I would assume they're looking for.
Let's try to keep this positive and limit the sarcasm, shall we?
As in Scavion's comment was negative and sarcastic, so if you are going to call out for a peace treaty while one side is still shooting, that outcome isn't realistic.
And saying "I'm reasonably sure there is a point" in a post calling for less sarcasm...
I phrased it that way since I was only reasonably confident that your post hadn't been garbled or accidentally posted mid-edit - "Both ways." isn't what I'd consider a particularly well-written or clear post. Thank you for clearing that up though.
And they were interesting because they were unusual.
No, that wasn't it.
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Let me tell you what I picture when I think of a Warpriest.
I think of a gritty soldier willing to do whatever he has to to get the job done. War isn't pretty. War isn't idealic. The only thing that pulls him through the day is his faith. Faith that no matter what crazy messed up s+!$ happens to him, hes gonna pull through because he knows deep down his deity has his back. And hes going to go through and see some crazy stuff. I don't believe this man is going to care about the finer tenants, because frankly, he has other things going on, like save the world or how hes going to survive till dawn.
War is part of the core concept of the WARpriest. War is a constantly adapting environment that you can't just take a hammer to and think it'll come out okay. Sometimes you need a wrench or a scalpel. The Warpriest should use everything he has at hand.
I don't want Sacred Weapon to apply to one weapon. I don't want Sacred Weapon to apply to any weapons. I don't want Sacred Weapon at all. All it is is a toned down Holy Bond thats near useless in execution.
Now if you really wanted to capture the spirit of the adaptability of the battlefield, I think something along the lines of the Inquisitor's judgements should be in order. Obviously it couldn't be the exact same, but the concept of being able to change up your strategy turn by turn would mesh so well.
My biggest problem with your argument Ciretose is that I think it would be better served by an archetype. Then we get the best of both worlds. I get my hyper adaptable Warpriest, and you get your super favored weapon focused Warpriest.
And I really feel that we should begin broad, then narrow. Because the other way around is much more difficult to do.
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@Scavion - What you describe is what I envision as an inquisitor.
Here is what I envision. The Cleric runs the church, protects the church and its followers. He is the defender of the faith.
The Inquisitor hunts down heretics, does what needs be done. Solo mission special forces hunter of evil who sometimes has to act outside the laws of the church to get it done. He is the special opps of the faith.
The Warpriest is the army of the church. Trained with the weapons of the faith, not given the "do what you need to do" of an inquisitor, but focused more on offense than defense than the Cleric.
The Cleric is preaching about the God, trying to bring in followers, making sure the church is safe and well run, healing the weak (or spreading evil...)
The inquisitor is lightly armored, highly skilled, keep under the radar and doing that we don't want to talk about in church that need to be done.
The Warpriest is walking around in full armor with a giant crest, wielding the weapon of the faith going "I am the champion of my God. Fear their wrath".
I don' think I've said a word to you in the past 3 pages. The only thing I can think of to be construed negative is when I pointed out the missing alignment restrictions text. But please enlighten me, How was I being "negative and sarcastic" and I might be able to explain to you why I said what I said. The only reason I continue to argue in this thread is because I want this class to be a solid Battle Cleric replacement as that is what I believe the Devs are shooting for in concept. And I don't believe tying the entire class concept to a single weapon based on a line in the deity's portfolio that is more often not justified. Thats the sort of thing an archetype is for, narrow concepts.
I was referencing where this started, a few pages back, but I bolded on this one. Well...bolded one as you already bolded a negative comment for me. :)
We both want this to be a solid battle cleric. We disagree on how to get there. I want lots and lots of bonuses to fighting, but to do that without stepping on the toes of other classes you need to have limiting factors.
I think it is ingenious to have bonuses given to you from your god for using the weapon your God favors. I think that will create logical encouragement for the followers of a deity to use the favored weapon AND also ensure that this class doesn't out fighter a fighter by having bonuses to every weapon while the fighter generally focuses on one weapon.
I think the secondary weapons will be fine with straight cleric buffs, and if they aren't as good as the primary...that is why they are secondary.
I think the feat suggestion someone else made to pick another weapon as your sacred weapon is a more than reasonable compromise, and I think those who have said it is unacceptable are being unreasonable.
And to be fair, many on your side have said it is a reasonable compromise they would accept, but they would want more.
Having the bonus apply arbitrarily gives no incentive for the person to choose...
How where he being negative and sarcastic when dealing with you upthread?
It is my personal opinion that to increase the effectiveness of the class, particularly based upon my own playtesting of the class, the warpriest may benefit from having an ability that allows them to reduce the casting time of personal buff spells when they target themselves. This would increase action economy for the warpriest, which I feel is sorely needed, and would provide the class an advantage in battle that is thematically appropriate.
For example, should a warpriest cast Bear's Endurance upon themselves in preparation for battle, that's all fine and good, just like every other class with access to the spell does. However, if a warpriest were able to reduce the casting time from 1 standard action to 1 move action, it would give the warpriest an advantage that would make up for some of the drawbacks the class currently suffers from in the combat department. The same could be suggested for debuffs that affect a single creature (in some sort of "divine rebuke" theme). This would encourage the warpriest to focus in on such spells to take advantage of the ability to use them faster while still leaving the option open to take other utility spells.
However, the warpriest might chew through a lot more spells throughout their day than normal, so perhaps an increased number of slots (or the ability to recall combat spells a certain number of times per day; perhaps anything three or more levels below your maximum spell level, which would therefore not kick in until the warpriest can cast 4th level spells anyway) would be appropriate to encourage combat buffing and debuffing.
Bumping them up to (4 + Int mod) skill ranks per level helps to even out the ineffectiveness of the class outside of combat somewhat, but leaving them with access to more general utility spells would help out a lot as well. Leaving them access to speak with dead, as an example, would help for information-gathering purposes and not discourage parties from taking along a warpriest instead of a cleric for times when they're not in battle.
Just some food for thought.
The Cleric is preaching about the God, trying to bring in followers, making sure the church is safe and well run, healing the weak (or spreading evil...)
The inquisitor is lightly armored, highly skilled, keep under the radar and doing that we don't want to talk about in church that need to be done.
The Warpriest is walking around in full armor with a giant crest, wielding the weapon of the faith going "I am the champion of my God. Fear their wrath".
(Quoting you here because I think this leads into the point I've been trying to make. So this will be open to any answer, not directed at Ciretose specifically.)
I assume the Oracle falls under the same description of the Cleric?If so, what about Oracles of War(or Metal)? The ones who are also walking around in full armor with a giant crest, wielding the weapon of the faith going "I am the champion of my God. Fear their wrath?" Except with better spell-casting and a Capstone that's superior to Pounce.
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Nope.
The Oracle doesn't follow the God, they are selected by them. The Oracle isn't required to have any real connection to any faith.
"Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways."
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2. Sacred Weapon isn't worth the effort to take advantage of it. Just cast buff spells on yourself or allies. It's action investment is too high, for a reward so small, and a duration so short. Just use the weapon you want. I was worried, along with others that I would have to use my Scimitar with this to be effective. The Blessings I picked were actually more important.
I was initially really confused by this, and then I went back and reread your playtest, and now I think I understand. You were spending a standard action on using sacred weapon, weren't you?
It's a swift action. Does that help?
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@ Squirrel Dude: Nice playtest.
This tells me a couple of things: First, that the Warpriest needs better inherent combat abilities. There are a few ways to accomplish this via feats, which could also help cover his ranged weapon deficiency, but for the most part he needs to be a bit more accurate and have a little more damage BEFORE buffing himself.
Secondly, it tells me that Sacred Weapon just isn't a good enough buff, especially at the level you get it. I mean, don't get me wrong: A stacking enhancement bonus is a rare thing, and you probably should've gone with that instead of flaming for the extra accuracy, but when spells are a better use of action economy than a swift action, primary class feature, there's a problem there. Perhaps, since Sacred Weapon is so limited, it should grant double the temporary bonus? Would that have made it more useful?
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The update is a nice one but something I would say that you should consider, move the bonus feat to level 2. I mean at level 1 for a not full bab class, the bonus combat feat is somewhat wasted. At level 2 strength build warpriest could at least grab Power attack, dex build could grab weapon finesse etc...
2. Sacred Weapon isn't worth the effort to take advantage of it. Just cast buff spells on yourself or allies. It's action investment is too high, for a reward so small, and a duration so short. Just use the weapon you want. I was worried, along with others that I would have to use my Scimitar with this to be effective. The Blessings I picked were actually more important.I was initially really confused by this, and then I went back and reread your playtest, and now I think I understand. You were spending a standard action on using sacred weapon, weren't you?
It's a swift action. Does that help?
Derp, yes. It would have made the ability much more useful in terms of action economy. I still don't think I would have used it until what I would perceive as the final battle of a day, though. It just doesn't do much. Think about it, through level 7 is a +1 bonus to your weapon. Divine Favor is giving me a +2 Attack and Damage bonus, and it lasts longer. Sacred weapon can certainly help (enemy vulnerable to X element, give yourself X element weapon property), but you're going to just be relying on spells.
And I still stand that the Flame Strike blessing was more useful in the scenario because it can be applied to any weapon and was what allowed me to get around the DR of the Ships in Bottles.
Perhaps, since Sacred Weapon is so limited, it should grant double the temporary bonus? Would that have made it more useful?
That would be nice but there is still the problem that Sacred Weapons have a +5 enhancement bonus cap. Drop that, and suddenly you've got something pretty interesting. How cool would it be to, at higher levels, be able to spontaneously bring the equivalent of an artifact to bear against your enemy?
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Yes. This is absolutely worth discussing.
The favored weapon emphasis completely ruins the class for most of us from a basic thematic perspective and there's a risk that if our silence leads the devs to think we don't consider the issue important they will not change it.
It's the thematic heart of the class.
Sure there is a tiny minority that it ruins the class for, but until there is a revised class presented, all you are doing is bogging down this and the other thread with complaining about something that so far has been indicated as staying, but being improved. In essence, WE GET IT, now please move on until there is actually something to discuss. WE ALSO GET THAT THERE IS AN EQUALLY TINY MINORITY that feels removing the favored of favored weapons ruins the class for them.
The Warpriest has rocketed forward to the most posted in ACG class discussions, (and it seems like it's also the class that has gotten the least official response or attention), but as of right now, and until there is a revised class given, we only have the original version to discuss as is, (adding that favored weapon proficiency), and continuously debating for the vast majority of over a thousand posts back and forth just makes it extremely difficult to get to the actual playtests of the class. Not to mention all the other suggestions that might be helpful.
People have been asked multiple times to take it somewhere else, and to keep it civil, so again, please, take it somewhere else. There is an entire thread dedicated to House Rules that this would fit perfectly in.
Secondly, can everyone stop making assumptions that Paizo is/must/will do something.
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I just have another suggestion, frankly aspect of war as a capstone is nice but compared to what a battle cleric 20 can do with 9th spells, it's a bit of a joke.
Aspect of War might be better off being a scaling ability and would give something unique to the warpriest and make the aspect of war bonus duration 1 minute per warpriest level. DR should scale 1/2 warpriest level from level 1 or 2, whatever works.
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Paizo has said multiple times that the people that get online, and on their message boards, (as opposed to other message boards and also getting online in general), are the vocal minority by far.
And it's generally the same few people, (on both sides) that are continuing to argue about this.
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@DM Beckett
There's a good chance the Warpriest thread has most posts specifically because it has been getting the least amount of attention. The last post I can find from a designer is Jason Bulmahn on page 6 where he agrees that the class has issues, dated November the 20th- roughly 1700 posts ago. Other than that there's just the blog post. If there's been any other feedback on the WP from the design team I must have missed it and would greatly appreciate a link to it :).
A two line post clarifying what they're thinking by focusing on the favored weapon, or that they're looking into improving the action economy somehow, that the warpriest does or does not qualify for fighter-only feats, or just that they're aware of and acknowledging the various concerns stated would most likely have resulted in a more productive thread.
From what I understand Jason is the designer for both the Warpriest and the Arcanist (possibly along with some of the other classes?) and so far it seems like the Arcanist has taken up the majority of his time. Hopefully the Warpriest will get some more focus over the next week.
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This thread is depressing. Mostly because we have received like zero updates on the class aside from Favored Weapon proficiency. I think all the playtests have proven what we all thought from the start, and that is the class doesn't seem necessary and brings not enough new stuff to the table to make us look at it twice.
I think all the playtests have proven what we all thought from the start, and that is the class doesn't seem necessary and brings not enough new stuff to the table to make us look at it twice.
The book isn't shipped yet. I have hope that the designers can take this class and turn it into something really great.
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I just wish that any mention of preferred weapon pro/con would stop until the update. Focus on the mechanics, like Squirrel did. His post was awesome and I greatly appreciate it, as I'm sure the devs do, since it is exactly what they are wanting to see (as they have stated a few times in other threads). Playtest > Theorycrafting, not saying the latter isn't helpful, but playtest trumps it.
In our playtest, each time we went into combat, the Warpriest would get 1-2 rounds of combat, as it took him a round to move and buff and usually a round to move and attack, though at 1st level it meant it took him 3 rounds, since he didn't have the +1 bab, he had to spend a round drawing his weapon (after that, he kept it out).
That said, when our dwarf warpriest did hit, he did decent damage, but the bigger thing he did was make himself hard to hit. He had a sickening AC at 1st level, without having heavy armor (1st level money) he was at a 20 unbuffed and would pop up to a 22 or 23 (he took dodge due to lack of options).
The higher level scenario we ran, the warpriest had moved up to a 28 unbuffed, I believe, and was hitting for about the same damage, while making himself harder and harder to hit in combat. If he had ways to ensure aggro (which he did not) then it would have been a great build, but not fulfilling for most.
Essentially, our decisions were simple: While the warpriest can become a defensive powerhouse, he has a hard time dishing out damage, and when he does, it isn't for much, even when buffing. This is of course assuming you build for all of their abilities. The class is MAD as all heck, but we all knew that.
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@DM Beckett
There's a good chance the Warpriest thread has most posts specifically because it has been getting the least amount of attention. The last post I can find from a designer is Jason Bulmahn on page 6 where he agrees that the class has issues, dated November the 20th- roughly 1700 posts ago. Other than that there's just the blog post. If there's been any other feedback on the WP from the design team I must have missed it and would greatly appreciate a link to it :).
A two line post clarifying what they're thinking by focusing on the favored weapon, or that they're looking into improving the action economy somehow, that the warpriest does or does not qualify for fighter-only feats, or just that they're aware of and acknowledging the various concerns stated would most likely have resulted in a more productive thread.
From what I understand Jason is the designer for both the Warpriest and the Arcanist (possibly along with some of the other classes?) and so far it seems like the Arcanist has taken up the majority of his time. Hopefully the Warpriest will get some more focus over the next week.
I agree. Don't get me wrong. But at the same time, bickering over a single thing back and forth simply bogs this thread down and makes it much more difficult to sift through in order to get an honest idea. Similarly, from what I have seen on the issue, it is all theory craft and not actual play testing, which was specifically what was requested be looked at and included.
The people posting on this thread are certainly a statistically insignificant portion of the player-base.
You also have virtually no basis to make assertions about any larger portion of the player-base, as unless there has been some large-scale polling or sampling that extends beyond the forum, you have no data about anyone else.
This is from Paizo themselves. If you are suggesting that they are not, it's pretty simple to disprove. Simply go back through all the pages, count up all the people that are clearly on one side or the other (via self indication), prune that list for posters that use multiple different avatars, then check those numbers vs sails figures and/or Message Board Accounts. Have fun with that, or you can just take Paizo's word for it. :) That ball is in your court.
On the other hand, the goal posts are back over here, so once more, lets drop the favored weapon whining, one way and also the other, on this thread, and focus on actually play testing the class and what actually is.
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The biggest limitation I've run into for various builds so far is that with a +0 BAB at level one your choice of combat feats that can be used to raise your To Hit or Damage is somewhat limited. As a matter of fact, if it didn't say you get Weapon Focus for free you wouldn't be able to get that, either.
Edit:
And can we please drop the sniping back and forth over Sacred Weapon? The blog post says they're looking at way to improve the functionality of the ability. Offer your idea up on how well it currently works and what can be done to change that if you think it needs changing and then move on to some more playtesting. So far, all we have is 1700+ or so posts mostly full of people making this thread very frustrating to read through to try and determine how people have playtested the class.
Less Epeen, more Play Test.
Thank you.
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That is one of the reasons people are hoping to see the bonus feat moved to level 2, giving you the +1 Bab, and making it not quite so frontloaded.
Yeah, I'd really like to see the bonus feats changed to 2nd level plus another every 3 levels. That way you'd get a bonus feat at some of the key BAB thresholds (8th level is +6 BAB, which has a lot of feats; 11th level is +8 BAB which has Improved Critical and Greater Weapon Focus, if they decide to give us access to that). Over 20 levels we'd get just as many feats, just less up front and at better timing to take advantage of them.
I also wouldn't mind if they allowed bonus feat swaps (ala Fighter) at maybe levels 5, 11, and 17. Not as often as a fighter, but enough to let you tweak your character if a planned progression goes awry.
That is a good idea, Robert, hopefully they pay attention to it!