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I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet. But why does Precise Strike not have wording to keep the Signature Deed feat from applying to it yet? Spend one panache as a swift action to double the precise strike damage on your next attack, or take a feat at 3rd to instantly make it a swift action to double your damage as long as you still have panache.The deed seems written with the Signature Deed feat in mind. It only works if you have one point of panache, but costs one point of panache to use. There would be no reason to require at least one point of panache if they weren't anticipating that the deed would at some point cost 0 panache.
Actually, if you look at Bulmahn's post at the top, they've fixed the wording on the deed. Need to have panache to use, but you can spend panache to do double the damage. Leads me to believe you can do the regular precision damage all the time so long as you haven't expended all of your panache.
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Don't forget that Piranha strike only works with light weapons, not with finesseable weapons (so it doesn't work with rapiers which are one-handed weapons).Oh I know, but it may be a viable option for players looking for a PA option without 13 STR.
I never noticed it! :) Somebody had to point it out to me.
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Actually, if you look at Bulmahn's post at the top, they've fixed the wording on the deed. Need to have panache to use, but you can spend panache to do double the damage. Leads me to believe you can do the regular precision damage all the time so long as you haven't expended all of your panache.
I must be juggling too many things this morning. I did read that. Please ignore me. IGNORE ME!
I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet. But why does Precise Strike not have wording to keep the Signature Deed feat from applying to it yet? Spend one panache as a swift action to double the precise strike damage on your next attack, or take a feat at 3rd to instantly make it a swift action to double your damage as long as you still have panache.
Well Signature Deed does require a gunslinger, or in this case swashbuckler, of 11th level. From what most people are saying about the ineffectiveness of just precise strike without Dex-to-damage, the Signature Deed feat just might be necessary to keep the damage relevant at that level and onwards.
I'd be reluctant to give away Improved Critical for free, when the rapier already has such a generous range. +2 to confirm critical hits would be more fair as well as potentially more powerful.
That sounds good to me. I just wrote something quick based on the current weapon training the swashbuckler gets. Personally, I think just the Dex to damage and increased bonuses are enough without anything else extra.
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I'd be reluctant to give away Improved Critical for free, when the rapier already has such a generous range. +2 to confirm critical hits would be more fair as well as potentially more powerful.That sounds good to me. I just wrote something quick based on the current weapon training the swashbuckler gets. Personally, I think just the Dex to damage and increased bonuses are enough without anything else extra.
How about adding Cha modifier to confirm criticals?
As with most classes in the playtest, Swashbucklers suffer mostly of needlessly complicated rules ("It works like Weapon Finesse but it's not Weapon Finesse") and poor wording.
And Reflex as the only good save is a extremely crippling. Remove Bravery and give Swashbucklers a 2nd good save, otherwise, they will be have a very difficult time surviving past 7th level.
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What is the point of Swift Feint? It seems out of place with the swashbuckler as written. I know it was a cut and paste from the gunslinger, but there is nothing (till level 15) that requires me to make a touch attack and, as has been pointed out, there is no sneak attack damage.
Everything else is looking great, and after looking everything over I've put together a swashbuckler for Skull and Shackles this weekend. I'm excited to play this and get some game time in for more input, but we are getting ready to hit level 7 soon, so I'm just trying to get some clarification on that particular deed.
I don't have a problem with the save situation. Reflex is good. I don't think Fortitude is not the issue for front line fighters people think it is, unless you fight a lot of monks, I guess. I'm not sure why thematically a swashbuckler would have a good Fortitude save.
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I'm not sure why thematically a swashbuckler would have a good Fortitude save.
Being able to hold their liquor?
I'm surprised I haven't seen any outrage yet over the non-standard probability of Daring Do. Adding a couple of points to a d20 roll is old hat for D&D and its descendants. Adding one or more d6 to a d20 roll seems pretty bold to me.
Who cares! Skill roll don't deadify things!
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What is the point of Swift Feint? It seems out of place with the swashbuckler as written. I know it was a cut and paste from the gunslinger, but there is nothing (till level 15) that requires me to make a touch attack and, as has been pointed out, there is no sneak attack damage.The way I read it, it's there to let the rest of the party slaughter the target, taking one for the team. I feint, now the 2WF Rogue doesn't need to flank, the Alchemist and ray shooting Wizard/Sorcerer auto hit, the Barbarian and Fighter hit with their last iterative, etc.
Thanks. I suppose that was the "what about me" mentality creeping in. I'll have the chance to playtest it soon, so I'll keep that in mind and give it a shot once I can.
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I'm surprised I haven't seen any outrage yet over the non-standard probability of Daring Do. Adding a couple of points to a d20 roll is old hat for D&D and its descendants. Adding one or more d6 to a d20 roll seems pretty bold to me.
Yeah, I was excited to see the explosive dice mechanic show up. A little disappointed that its limited to dex mod, but its understandable.
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This is something in general that irks me about the Paizo take on duelist/swashbuckling classes. Light and 1-handed piercing weapons ? Cestus. morning stars, picks, and even some shields are precise and agile weapons whereas the war razor, scimitar, katana, dueling swords, and cutlasses however are beyond the scope of the classes abilities. Maybe if it were lighe and one handed sword types instead ? Ot a list of its own ?
This is something in general that irks me about the Paizo take on duelist/swashbuckling classes. Light and 1-handed piercing weapons ? Cestus. morning stars, picks, and even some shields are precise and agile weapons whereas the war razor, scimitar, katana, dueling swords, and cutlasses however are beyond the scope of the classes abilities. Maybe if it were lighe and one handed sword types instead ? Ot a list of its own ?
That's why I asked if new weapons are gonna be available, because there isn't much of a choice.
Like I said:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon
Estoc - 30 gp - 1d10 - 18-20/x2 - B or P - disarm, brace.
THERE's your rapier upgrade people.
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I'm surprised I haven't seen any outrage yet over the non-standard probability of Daring Do. Adding a couple of points to a d20 roll is old hat for D&D and its descendants. Adding one or more d6 to a d20 roll seems pretty bold to me.I'm surprised there isn't more outrage over the misspelling of "derring-do."
That, too.
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I sat down last night to make a Swashbuckler for our playtest. We used 15 point buy, and I decided on a half-elf. My concept was a quick master of acrobatics who would scathe her enemies with her wicked blade, and more wicked tongue! Below are some thoughts that I had:
-Swashbuckling adventure is the thing I love most about D&D. I was incredibly, perhaps too, excited for this class to the point that perhaps I didn't leave room for something not living up to my incredible expectations.
-I began by placing a 17 in Dexterity, but quickly realized I wouldn't have enough points left for the high Charisma that I wanted. Additionally, it irked me that Swashbuckling Finesse was a second level ability (which has been well covered on this forum). It led to me downplaying her Dexterity, and increasing her Charisma- which was actually a nice surprise, but not exactly what I wanted. I also don't think that Weapon Finesse is needed to be a Swashbuckler. I think Acrobatics might be more core to what a Swashbuckler is than Weapon Finesse. With some of the other Deeds, they require or imply the need for having a feat (Combat Reflexes, Quick Draw, etc.) What if the ability expands Weapon Finesse (if you have it) to all light and one-handed weapons, and/or allows Dexterity to Damage if you already have it. That would allow those options to pick up Weapon Finesse when it's appropriate: 1st level, but still benefit from a class ability at a higher level - to avoid class dipping. Also, I think that makes it interesting to see a Swashbuckler from an Asian-themed setting whipping a katana around, or Sinbad with a scimitar.
-Skills felt appropriate. I didn't have a ton of points left for Intelligence, which would have made it better, but I was able to get a high Acrobatics score, plus a slew of Charisma skills. I wish I could see an opportunity to use them more. One of the main concepts for my character, and my conception of a Swashbuckler is the banter, and repartee - using scathing remarks and jests to confuse and confound. The over confidence. I wish there were more deeds that could be used to goad, fluster, and demoralizing my opponent, and perhaps self-motivating while I'm at it. "It's only a flesh wound."
-Darring-do: as someone mentioned, I always thought it was derring-do. I love this ability. The fact that the d6 explodes and you can keep rolling can exemplify the "better lucky than good" mantra of a Swashbuckler.
-Parry: I thought this one was an elegant try to explain an awkward mechanic. Opposed attack rolls feels the way to go. Using an Attack of Opportunity seems, at least initially, appropriate in terms of resource conservation. It does feel like I need Combat Reflexes, though to use my class abilities to their best.
-Riposte: Now I really need Combat Reflexes if I'm going to be able to use this. Additionally, this feels like an extension of the ability above and not its own. I can't Riposte unless I first Parry.
-Recovery: Lovely. I wish at higher levels I could negate the attack of opportunity, and/or perhaps move further than 5 ft. I picture the villain Count Von Evil swinging his sword where I was, as I bound up the stairs, or swing from the chandelier to seek the high ground.
Which leads me to something I was hoping for: rules for swinging on chandeliers, leaping over handrails, fighting while balancing on a mizzenmast, etc. I feel that the Swashbuckler should be the king of that, and I didn't see it. I felt like a charismatic swordsman waiting for 2nd level.
Looking ahead at the deeds, I felt the same way I did when looking at the gunslinger: super giddy excited waiting for some (Perfect Thrust I think it's called) and somewhat confused by others (Called Shots seem more appropriate for a gunslinger than a Swashbuckler, imo.) Also, I'm not sure why I would ever pommel punch anyone, unless it had damage reduction/bludgeoning - I kept thinking that it thematically made sense as using a Feint or Dirty Trick and causing damage to the target in addition to dazing them, or catching them flat-footed. Alternatively, I could easily see doing that Swashbuckler ability to throw my sword and make a ranged attack or maneuver (pinning someone to the door as they attempt to run away).
- The cumulative -4 penalty to the Parry deed is pretty harsh on Small characters. I'd love to play a halfling swashbuckler who punishes naysayers with sheer acrobatic awesomeness to prove size doesn't matter, or even a kobold or goblin, but this is a hard blow when you get slammed in the face with this penalty right there.
I logged in to post this comment and see that someone beat me to it.
Gnome swashbucklers should be encouraged as it makes sense as their default fighting style. Frankly, I think you could justify a bonus to parry for small sized creatures more easily than a minus. This would be balanced by the reduced damage of small weapons.
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Signature Weapon (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a swashbuckler can select a specific type of light or one-handed...
I for one wouldn't mind this ability to only grant improved Critical instead. Considering the primary class feature is based on critical hits, having to buy a Keen sword is a no-brainer prerequisite for higher levels - in other words, just a tax.
About this topic, I especially hate class options granting the Improved Critical feat for free at 8th level or higher.
Because come on, if I actually NEED this feat, I already got a Keen weapon 2 levels ago... so what do I do now, I suck it for 2 levels because I know I'll eventually have to change weapons ?
Or maybe I should just give my fidel heirloom +1 Keen rapier which I have been using for 8 levels to some charity for low-level adventurers, because it's now half useless ? Instead of rolling with the class and enjoy a good story, you now have to metagame, plan and justify this aberration.
I've read someone asking for Combat Expertise at 2nd level. This feat sucks hard, and is actually totally useless for anyone going the Fighting Defensively route. Its only purpose is to fit the prerequisites of other maneuver feats... so we may as long be able to pick maneuver feats by ignoring this prerequisite, or receive an ability which reduces the penalty for fighting defensively (not stacking with Crane Style's benefits of course, to add incentive not to shoehorn the swashbuckler in this style). One major offender is also the Feint feats which require 13 Int. Some way to circumvent these prerequisites would be awesome !
About Precise Strike, I'm totally fine with it and was positively surprised by this choice. I hope the class will not adopt a boring Dex-to-damage. The fact it increases exactly as you level makes for a more fleshy and palpable evolution over the whole 20 levels, instead of just going from 1d6+1 to 1d6+7 and not evolving anymore... though I would appreciate it if it could apply to more targets and maybe have some impact on critical hit damage (maybe the bonus damage you can receive as a swift action could be multipliable on a crit ? This would make for a great balancing tool so no one can spam huge damage bonuses with 15-20 hasted full attacks !).
Oh, and I would love if it ultimately had no way to stack with Dervish Dance, because the eventuality of someone using this feat means you would have to nerf the swashbuckler to avoid abuse, meaning effectively neutering those who don't want to use this feat, meaning shoe-horning every build ever into yet another dervish dancer. Not even talking about it being yet another feat tax for a starved class in the current state.
I mean, here is a 5th-level Halfling swashbuckler build I'll try to playtest this week :
20 pt-buy - 5th level Swashbuckler Halfling, John 'Li'l Lucky' Lonor
10
20 (18 + 2 belt)
12
8
11
18 (17 + 1 lvl)
HD : 10 + 4d10 + 5(Con) + 1(Fav) : 38 HP
AC : 10 + 5(Arm) + 4(Dex) + 1(Size) + 2(Nim) = 22 (27 defensively)
Saves :
Fort : 1+1+1 : 3
Ref : 4+5+1 : 10
Will : 1+1 : 2
BAB : +5
Melee : 5 + 5(Dex) + 1(Mag) + 1(Size) + 1(WT) : +13
CMB : 5 + 5(Dex) + 1(Mag) - 1(Size) + 1(WT) : +11/+7 Disarm/Trip
Attack : +13
+1 Rapier ; 1d4+(5(Pre))+1(Mag)+1(WT) 15-20x2
Defensively : +9
+1 Rapier ; 1d4+(5(Pre))+1(Mag)+1(WT) 15-20x2
Panache :
4/day (Parry for 1 at +9(/+5 if defensive) against medium-sized, Counterattack for 1, deal +5 damage for one attack roll as swift)
Racial Traits :
- Adaptable luck (+2 as a free action 3/day)
- Low Blow (+1 crit vs bigger)
Traits :
- Fencer (+1 to AoO)
- Heirloom Weapon (+1 to AoO)
Feats :
1. Cautious Fighter (Halflings) (Retrained from Weapon Finesse since I've got to survive 1st level : meaning I have to choose between sucking balls/eventually die at 1st level or suck hard for 3 levels)
2b. Weapon Finesse
3. Combat Reflexes
4b. Improved Low Blow (+2 crit vs bigger + reroll crit)
5. Desperate Swing
10 500 GP
+1 chaimail (1200)
+1 rapier (2350)
+1 cloak (1000)
+2 Dex Belt (4000)
Building John, here are my observations :
- So many prerequisites : 13 Int on a MAD class, Combat Expertise, must wield an aldori sword...
- COME ON combat expertise. I was going for Feint, but it implied reducing my Wisdom AND my Charisma to get more Int... on a low-Will, Cha-based class. Just to FEINT with my swashbuckler, aka not the most efficient way to deal damage at all.
- COME ON AGAIN combat expertise. I guess there will be no disarm either for my swashbucker.
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This is something in general that irks me about the Paizo take on duelist/swashbuckling classes. Light and 1-handed piercing weapons ? Cestus. morning stars, picks, and even some shields are precise and agile weapons whereas the war razor, scimitar, katana, dueling swords, and cutlasses however are beyond the scope of the classes abilities. Maybe if it were light and one handed sword types instead ? Ot a list of its own ?You mean like some kind of 'dueling weapons' class?
Yeah.. isnt that a fighter weapon group or something already ? Though in the interest of opening it up to other ideas like escrima stick and knife fighters or some stone age spear uses and the like why not just make it all weapons while used in a single hand.. that lets you open hand or dual wield as you prefer.
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Like I said:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon
Estoc - 30 gp - 1d10 - 18-20/x2 - B or P - disarm, brace.THERE's your rapier upgrade people.
In general an upgrade from martial to exotic should do only one of the following things: decrease the weapon's size by one step (two-handed to one-handed or one-handed to light), increase the weapon's damage die one step, increase the weapon's critical range one step, or add one or two special abilities.
This weapon has the same damage die as a bastard sword, a greater critical range, and two special abilities. IMO it isn't balanced.
Like I said:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon
Estoc - 30 gp - 1d10 - 18-20/x2 - B or P - disarm, brace.THERE's your rapier upgrade people.
Did you just make that up, or is that from somewhere? I can't find it on d20pfsrd.
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I do love it. The bonus to attack and damage is just icing on the cake, but if it doesn't apply to a fighter's Gloves of Dueling, I'd rather see some other ability if possible, like the swift-action deal-equal damage on a crit.
By the way, Sorry if this all sounds like I'm trying to design it for the professionnals, I know that's absolutely not what a playtest is for. (It can be considered as job conditioning now !)
I hope you just take my comments as what they are meant for : points that as an avid player and amateur designer, I feel actually -need- to be reworked a bit (Finesse at 1st level or another feat at 2nd level if you already possess it, for example) ; or just suggestions that I think would make for a perfect fun, customizable and balanced class.
For example, know that in our home game we remove the Combat Expertise prerequisite, so in actual gameplay, Swashbuckler John would have picked Improved Disarm/Improved Feint instead. We would also have allowed feats and traits that work with aldori swords to just apply to rapiers. Just so you know these are common houserules from what I've seen, and that would be great if we just didn't need them to do things with this awesome class. :)
Alright, since I am such a fan of the swashbuckling archetype of hero that I wrote my own 20 level class named the Swashbuckler, this is of course the one which I will have the most relevant opinions on of the field of ten new classes.
First, let's start with the criticism:
- Weapon Finesse should be given at first level.
- Only one good save? I really don't feel like non-casters should have two bad saves anymore, so I think good Fortitude and Reflex would be the way to go here. Bravery seems unnecessary and should be dropped for the good Fortitude save.
- The light/one-handed piercing weapon restriction is vexing and should be reconsidered.
- My first drafts of my Swashbuckler had level to damage, although in my case it did multiply on critical hits. It still might be a bit too good, given how the Swashbuckler gets Weapon Training (although not useable with Gloves of Dueling, I presume) and can use Power Attack.
- OTOH, restricting it to the Duelists outdated (and straight out copy-pasted from the 3.5 version) Precise Strike target list is horrible and outdated. There is literally no reason why the Swashbuckler should not be able to do extra damage to targets which can be affected by Sneak Attack. Since other Deeds reference Sneak Attack, the target restriction for Precise Strike should also be widened to include all Sneak Attack targets.
- The class has very few movements options. When I think of Swashbucklers, I see them tumbling over desks, swinging from chandeliers and charging down railings. There should be options to support that, like Acrobatic Charge or options to stand up from prone as a free actions without AoO's.
- As much as I'd love it as a player, I think Targeted Strike is too good. It already was too good with the Gunslinger (and is a good part of why that class is banned at my table, aside from the issue of multiple high-damage ranged touch attacks undermining the principle of high AC monsters), it still is too good here.
Now, for the good stuff:
- The class has a large variety of maneuvers available to it. A great number of them are always available (because nobody will want to spend that last panache) and others can still be used quite often, due to the easy recovery mechanics of panache.
- Nimble is really neat and is also present on my own Swashbuckler, although with less total bonus. High level dexterity based classes easily outpace heavy armor users with too much dodge based goodies.
- With Precise Strike, Swashbuckler Weapon Training and Power Attack, the damage output and chance of delivering that damage is nothing to sneeze at. The class seems really well done in that regard.
Overall, the class needs some improvements (Precise Strike target list too restrictive, Weapon Finesse at level one, two good saves needed, more movement options, lose Targeted Strike for, say, a D20 re-roll once per day), but otherwise it is in a good place. Great work and I hope it doesn't get nerfed unnecessarily. :)
Like I said:
Exotic One-Handed Weapon
Estoc - 30 gp - 1d10 - 18-20/x2 - B or P - disarm, brace.THERE's your rapier upgrade people.
In general an upgrade from martial to exotic should do only one of the following things: decrease the weapon's size by one step (two-handed to one-handed or one-handed to light), increase the weapon's damage die one step, increase the weapon's critical range one step, or add one or two special abilities.
This weapon has the same damage die as a bastard sword, a greater critical range, and two special abilities. IMO it isn't balanced.
Just use a lance. It's a one-handed piercing weapon as long as you are mounted. Jousting is SO a fencing style!
As far as I can tell, there isn't anything compelling to keep you from dumping charisma as a stat (unless, of course, the character concept just demands a high charisma). With a 15 point buy (or even 20 points) and a class that needs strength, dexterity and constitution, you probably aren't going to get charisma up to 14 or higher. Bluff would be useful to feint, but you don't have the rogue talents to move it to a move or swift action. You can just keep the one minimum panache point in your pool for all the abilities that it triggers, and only use the ones that cost a panache point in the most desperate of situations. I would rather put the points into wisdom to bring up perception and the will save than into charisma.
To make it more relevant, I would agree with some of the earlier posters about making charisma important to armor class, damage, or even some saving throws. Adding your charisma bonus as a bonus to will saves seems in theme to me. Who knows, maybe they have a Dashing archetype in the works that makes it more charisma themed... I suspect there will be a firearms archetype as well.
But it certainly feels like there is a lot right with this class, more so than I've seen in other attempts at it.
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I am running a lvl 1 Swashbuckler tonight, so'll I'll provide more feedback tomorrow.
My initial thoughts are as follows:
1) While Deeds and Panache are good 1st level abilities, something else needs to be given. I would add Combat Expertise instead of moving Weapon Finesse to 1st. This would help reduce some of the MADness of the Swashbuckler, while opening up the Combat Maneuver Feats.
2) These both deal with Precise Strike
a) I like the idea of adding level to damage, especially since Strength will be at premium to add damage, but it needs to not be precision damage. Basically allow it to damage anything that can be critted.
b) Allow the use of a buckler or dagger in the off-hand. This will allow a Swashbuckler to utilize two weapon fighting or improve their already weaker AC. If you need to restrict the Precise Strike to the main hand, that's ok.
3) Parry and Riposte - I love this concept, but make the Parry cost an AoO as long as the SB has at least one Panache, and then the Riposte cost one Panache as long as they still have an AoO left. That way, they have a choice to Parry and/or Riposte not completely destroy their reserve of Panache.
Those are my initial thoughts, I will let you know how my playtest goes tonight.
-- Sir Frog
Just wanted to put in my two cents:
First of all, I love the class. Over-all, I think it gets very close to what it needs to be. However, I have a few issues. These have all been addressed by others, but I feel like the more people bring them up, the more likely the designers will pay attention.
1. The only good save being Reflex is a problem. I can see good arguments for either Fort or Will, but it needs to get one of them.
2. The limitation to light or one-handed piercing weapons feels very restrictive. Maybe adjust this to allow it's features to work with slashing weapons as well?
3. Finesse. It really should get Weapon Finesse (the feat) for free at 1st level. Maybe Swashbuckler Finesse at 2nd level can expand the list of finessable weapons to include the rest of the weapons that the other class features work with and give the bonuses to CMD.
4. It really needs to be able to support other swashbuckling styles, like TWF and Weapon and Buckler. Maybe adjust precise strike so that it still works if you only have a light weapon or buckler in your off hand?
The solution I came up with to keep Charisma relevant for my own Swashbuckler class, was to require it to unlock my equivalent of Weapon Training, i.e. if normally you would get a +2 to hit at level 10, you'd need a +2 Charisma modifier to actually get it, in the same vein as Canny Defense from the Duelist. Funnily enough, that ability also is called Panache in my own Swashbuckler class. :p
Anyway, maybe using the Canny Defense model for Swashbuckler Weapon Training would keep Charisma more relevant.
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b) Allow the use of a buckler or dagger in the off-hand. This will allow a Swashbuckler utilize two weapon fighting or improve their already weaker AC. If you need to restrict the Precise Strike to the main hand, that's ok.
This. I don't see why swashbucklers would get buckler proficiency if using it denies them such a crucial source of damage.
3) Parry and Riposte - I love this concept, but make the Parry cost an AoO as long as the SB has at least one Panache, and then the Riposte cost one Panache as long as they still have an AoO left. That way, they have a choice to Parry and/or Riposte not completely destroy their reserve of Panache.
Those are my initial thoughts, I will let you know how my playtest goes tonight.
-- Sir Frog
You under estimate how much panache a swashbuckler will have. Most are going to use a high crit weapon (the best choice for them is the scimitar with dervish dance, other will probably use a rapier). With keen or improved crit, 1/4th of their attacks will be crits. With parry and repost they are easily making multiple attacks a round. In my playtest the swashbuckler got back at least 1 panache every fight, usually more. If you have a descent charisma, and take an 'extra panache' feat, it will be a far larger supply then a gunslinger has. If it was always free, this full bab, weapon training martially focused character wouldnt need an AC, he'd just parry all the time.
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This class seems ready to go, but won't truly shine till that gun archetype comes out- as that is what most of us seem to be waiting for.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You under estimate how much panache a swashbuckler will have. Most are going to use a high crit weapon (the best choice for them is the scimitar with dervish dance, other will probably use a rapier). With keen or improved crit, 1/4th of their attacks will be crits.
Will be threats you mean, the actual crit rate will be lower.
That people are automatically going to rapier/scimitar and assuming keen/improved critical is a flaw to me. It boxes the class too much. Kind of like now how a scimitar is standard issue for magi.
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For the people who think Precise Strike is OP.
Its not.
As a fighter, and more importantly as a dex based fighter, you will EASILY deal more than your level in damage by using TWF. Now this does help those that would prefer to have a single weapon. But you also can't use a shield or a two-hander.
If you are a two-handed fighter, you are getting +50% str, and +50% power attack. This is appx +1 dmg/4 levels for strength (though it is in reality more frontloaded than that) and +1 dmg at 1st and every 4 for power attack. You are also getting an extra 1d6 from base dmg.
So, by level 12, the 2 hander is getting 3 more from str, 4 more from PA, and 3.5 more from base dmg. This is 10.5 dmg. compared to the Swashbucklers 12. So precise strike is just trying to make up for that Gap.
The only problem is that at that same level a simple Str based fighter is going to have weapon training, and more importantly... Strength.
At 12, you can assume a str based fighter will have a str of 22 without breaking a sweat, and that adds 6 more dmg to the stack that a dex based fighter isn't getting.
So the Swashbuckler falls behind.
If you add dex to damage instead of strength, then a swashbuckler can be right or par with a standard fighter in terms of offensive output when using a one handed weapon. Defensively, the simple fighter is going to win out if he uses TWF shield bashing, and he will win out offensively too.
So, Swashbuckler solutions:
- Finesse Fighter at 1st: The swashbuckler gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, the swashbuckler can use weapon finesse with the Scimitar, Sword Cane, and Sawtooth Sabre.
- Deft Strikes at 6th: Adds dexterity to damage instead of strength. this damage is reduced by 50% for offhand weapons, but is not increased by 50% when wielding a weapon in two hands.
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Currently a swashbucker can use these weapons.
Cestus*
Spiked Gauntlet*
wooden stake
Morningstar*
Short Spear*
Light Pick*
Heavy Pick*
Rapier
Sword cane
Trident
Dervish Dance Scimitar (Best option)
*WTF
Cannot use:
Longsword
Aldori Dueling Sword
Kukri
Cutlass
Non-Dervish Dance Scimitar
Falcata
Rhoka
Double CHicken Saber
Katana
Urumi
Temple Sword
I think class features on the Swashbucker should instead use a "swashbucker weapon list" of "Weapon finesse able weapons and the Cutlass"
As it is currently it's very odd that I can precise strike with my Morningstar, but not my Kukri, Urumi, Katana, Aldori Duelign sword, ect.
Considering this class is already pretty MAD I really suggest giving them Combat Expertise for free so that combat maneuvers don't suck. Also finally introduce greater weapon finesse. Dex to damage can never catch up to STR and power attack.
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I don't see the dip as a problem at all. You can already dip a level of fighter to pick up Finesse as a bonus feat, and taking a level of swashbuckler is going to block you from taking fighter, so it all works out.
Plus, a fighter dip gives you much better proficiencies and a MUCH more valuable saving throw boost.
Reflex saves are really the least important. And it is unfortunate that Dex based classes seem to get stuck with it so often. The swashbuckler is in the same boat as a finesse rogue, where they will have a +17 reflex save with evasion, but a +6 will save.
The earlier suggestion of adding charisma to a will save is pretty neat... even if this cost a panache point.
Call it "Force of Personality" Spend a panache to add charisma to a saving throw.
I am also of the opinion that they need some ability called "Braggadocio"
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That people are automatically going to rapier/scimitar and assuming keen/improved critical is a flaw to me. It boxes the class too much. Kind of like now how a scimitar is standard issue for magi.
Maybe a "explosive panache" then ? Gaining 1 point of panache whenever you roll the maximum damage possible with your light/finesseable melee weapon's damage dice ? It would actually favor small/light weapons like daggers, unless you start abusing small-sized weapons.
I guess a better option would be to keep the focus on critical hits, but grant to x2 weapons wielded the ability to change their base critical hit range to 18-20 (feat or archetype), stacking with effects doubling the crit range of the weapon. This way any x2 weapon can become a viable alternative to rapier/scimitar !
Something that I've never seen but should be a good way to block dipping : losing the weapon finesse feat as soon as you multiclass if you do not have at least two swashbuckler levels ?
You under estimate how much panache a swashbuckler will have. Most are going to use a high crit weapon (the best choice for them is the scimitar with dervish dance, other will probably use a rapier). With keen or improved crit, 1/4th of their attacks will be crits.Will be threats you mean, the actual crit rate will be lower.
That people are automatically going to rapier/scimitar and assuming keen/improved critical is a flaw to me. It boxes the class too much. Kind of like now how a scimitar is standard issue for magi.
The swashbuckler is full bab, with weapon training and (probably) doesnt need much of a strength score. His to hit will be rather high, so crit rate wont be THAT much lower then his threat rate. That and the fact that he is bound to drop a few opponents means that 1 panache per 4 attacks is a reasonable estimate.
As for the whole scimitar/rapier thing, the class boxes itself in. You Must use a one handed piercing weapon (thats a short list), rapier is hands down your best option, scimitar is better if you have dervish dance. Crits get you back your primary resource, again this means that anything but a high crit weapon with keen/improved crit is a huge step back. Without changing those 2 facts, you arent going to get away from those two weapons, and scimitar will always be the best option by a mile if you can use dervish dance.