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We're getting a lot of demands for Dex to damage, but they mostly seem to be from a small handful of the same people who are looking at this class strictly in terms of DPR and how they match up to a fully optimized fighter or barbarian. I'd like to voice my dislike for this idea, and I'd like to see if there are others out there that agree. Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.
No dex to damage.
Why yes, I did need my position summarized in a fashion that was both inaccurate and dismissive, thank you for helping.
Dex to damage isn't about trying to make their damage 'match' optimized anything. If I wanted optimized damage on melee I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder, since it charges builds an arm, a leg, and their firstborn to snag what they need for Full Murder Mode Enabling.
Dex to damage is one of the things I want out of Swashbucker, and it's so I can take my non-refundable build resources (feats, levels, 'essential' WBL expense) and use them to feel more like a Swashbuckler and less like a watered-down Fighter. Dex to damage does let us ignore Strength but it's not going to magically produce greater damage than Strength does. They're ability scores, they all scale the same way. At best it'll be equal, since it's also not like Dex is magically easier to increase than Strength either.
Is that out of the way? That's out of the way? Okay.
Because here's what I want out of Swashbuckler:
- Derring-Do. Lightly armored? Uses just one weapon? Charisma focus? Sounds like someone who moves around the battlefield to me. I want meaningful mobility out of the Swashbuckler, with abilities that encourage and reward superior battlefield positioning and reckless acts of breathtaking acrobatics.
- Einhander. If you're going to require that this person use one weapon and nothing else except maybe a buckler you damn well better give them a good reason. Einhander needs some love in PF and 3.5 anyway and the only people who ever actually got away with it are/were casters (because Casters) and initiators (because THANK YOU TOME OF BATTLE). Want Swashbuckler to use just one weapon? Incentivize it. This is where that dex-to-damage idea comes in.
- Elan. A swashbuckler is naked without their sense of style. Charisma to saves is /one/ way to do that, but...c'mon, surely we can get more inventive than that? Charisma vs. mind-affecting abilities I can see but what about adding charisma to their AC as an immediate action (baffling an enemy assault with fast-talk or enraging insults that make them swing wildly), adding charisma to an ally's roll (encouragement/fear tactics - evil is a thing), subtracting rounds equal to their charisma modifier from the duration of negative effects...
- Something to do outside of combat. The way Fighter was treated in this regard was criminal. Swashbucklers are skilled people with a variety of interests and talents and should have the skill points to build their own unique flavor. Don't believe me? Casanova and Julie d'Aubigney (La Maupin) would like words with you.
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Change both parry and Derring-Do so that the choice to spend Panache and execute the deed is made after the initial roll is made.
A parry or Derring-Do attempt that only makes a difference between success or failure 20% of the time should not make you spend Panache 100% of the time.
Spending Panache should always be worthwhile!
If the attack misses me, why would I bother to spend half my Panache to parry it? As a fencer, we let attacks that are missing go Un-parried.
If I make a skill roll and fail by, say, 4 then I can make an informed and exciting choice about whether to spend Panache or not; that 1d6 roll becomes very interesting. Right now, I have to spend my Panache when it will be completely wasted about 80% of the time! How is that fun? How does that represent a swashbucklers talent to be awesome just when he needs it most?
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Another thing about parry: equal combatants should have an equal chance.
White Hat and Black Hat swashbuckler both have AC 24 and attack at +13. This means that they must roll 11+ on the d20 on their attack roll to hit their twin. Fair enough.
And that also means that their opposing attack rolls will mean that there is a 50/50 chance to parry, right? Right?
If you define parry as turning a hit into a miss (and what's the point of it if it isn't?), then when the d20 roll is 1-10 then the parry didn't turn a hit into a miss. Only the d20 rolls of 11-20 results in a hit, so only those rolls give a chance to turn a hit into a miss, and the average of those rolls is 15.5. Therefore, the parry will turn a hit into a miss on a d20 roll of 16-20.
Instead of the expected 50/50 chance, it is only a 25% to turn a hit into a miss.
Even this conceals the truth. Many foes will either be mooks or BBEGs.
If a mook hits you, it's damage is likely to be low enough that you won't want to waste your only parry attempt (you have 2 Panache and need to keep 1).
If the BBEG gets a hit on you, you really want to parry that! But the BBEG has a higher attack roll than you, making you even less likely to parry than the 25% chance you'd have against an equal opponent!
Solution? Instead of opposed attack rolls, if the attack hits and you decide to attempt a parry, spend your Panache and make an attack roll with a DC equal to your opponent's attack modifier +10. This brings equal combatants back to an equal chance to parry, and makes it still meaningful against the BBEG.
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Just a thought, but as an example of good mobility abilities, I refer to the Dawnflower Dervish Fighter Archetype from the Inner Sea Primer:
They maneuver quickly among their enemies, relying on their speed and their skill to see them through the battle.
Burst of Speed (Ex)
At 3rd level, a dervish takes only a –1 penalty to her AC after charging. At 7th level, the dervish can charge with no penalty.
Desert Stride (Ex)
At 7th level, a dervish can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This benefit stacks with the benefits provided by the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats.
Rapid Attack (Ex)
At 11th level, a dervish can combine a full attack with a single move. She must forgo the attack at her highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during her movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Lightning Strike (Ex)
At 15th level, as part of a full attack, a dervish can make one additional attack. This attack is at the dervish’s highest base attack bonus, but each attack in the round (including the extra one) takes a –2 penalty.
Something like these as Deeds, with a panache cost. The first would be as long as your have 1 panache, etc. The seond the same, but requiring an Acrobatics check that you adjust with Derring-Do, etc...
Renamed for the theme, perhaps Swashbuckling, Improved Swashbuckling and Greater Swashbuckling...
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Just a thought, but as an example of good mobility abilities, I refer to the Dawnflower Dervish Fighter Archetype from the Inner Sea Primer:
They maneuver quickly among their enemies, relying on their speed and their skill to see them through the battle.
Burst of Speed (Ex)
At 3rd level, a dervish takes only a –1 penalty to her AC after charging. At 7th level, the dervish can charge with no penalty.
Desert Stride (Ex)
At 7th level, a dervish can move through 10 feet of difficult terrain each round as if it were normal terrain. This benefit stacks with the benefits provided by the Acrobatic Steps and Nimble Moves feats.
Rapid Attack (Ex)
At 11th level, a dervish can combine a full attack with a single move. She must forgo the attack at her highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during her movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Lightning Strike (Ex)
At 15th level, as part of a full attack, a dervish can make one additional attack. This attack is at the dervish’s highest base attack bonus, but each attack in the round (including the extra one) takes a –2 penalty.
Something like these as Deeds, with a panache cost. The first would be as long as your have 1 panache, etc. The seond the same, but requiring an Acrobatics check that you adjust with Derring-Do, etc...
Renamed for the theme, perhaps Swashbuckling, Improved Swashbuckling and Greater Swashbuckling...
Excellent!
Desert Stride could safely read, "Ignores difficult terrain". Lightning Strike is nice but Haste has been online for awhile now - why the penalty? Rapid Attack is much-appreciated and goes lengths to making einhander viable, could safely come online much earlier.
Good suggestions!
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Change both parry and Derring-Do so that the choice to spend Panache and execute the deed is made after the initial roll is made.
A parry or Derring-Do attempt that only makes a difference between success or failure 20% of the time should not make you spend Panache 100% of the time.
Spending Panache should always be worthwhile!
If the attack misses me, why would I bother to spend half my Panache to parry it? As a fencer, we let attacks that are missing go Un-parried.
If I make a skill roll and fail by, say, 4 then I can make an informed and exciting choice about whether to spend Panache or not; that 1d6 roll becomes very interesting. Right now, I have to spend my Panache when it will be completely wasted about 80% of the time! How is that fun? How does that represent a swashbucklers talent to be awesome just when he needs it most?
What is odd about parry, as it stands, is that it makes riposte rather decent... you spend 1 panache for the chance to spend another panache for an AoO. The odds of having your parry be successful are not too bad, because the parry is considered successful as long as your attack roll beats your opponent's (regardless of whether or not it would hit your AC). So the odds of getting a Riposte are also not too bad. This is especially true if you smartly choose to parry the enemy's weakest attack when your AoO bonus is likely to be better than their attack bonus.
The extra attack from riposte is going to end up being a more effective use of a panache point than getting double the bonus for precise strike. (compare an extra attack to +lvl damage on one attack, both have the same miss chance ostensibly), and has the added benefit of possibly being a crit which can recoup the panache point.
Even with the cost being 2 panache, the extra attack will outpace two uses of precise strike.
The problem is that this is really all that parry is good for. In terms of turning a hit into a miss, it is laughably bad and pathetically ineffective.
However, if parry can only be triggered when an enemy hits you (but before damage) then you massively reduce the number of riposte opportunities that will arise, and parry will still suffer from the same probability issues.
It is a weird ability, but if you look at it as only a being a way to possibly get an extra attack, it actually isn't that bad.
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This would be a lot less hassle if Panache was per-encounter and not per-day. Not that I hold out hope for that, but, hey, I can dream.
This would be a lot less hassle if Panache was per-encounter and not per-day. Not that I hold out hope for that, but, hey, I can dream.
This is my thought too - panache ought to refill itself at a rate around 1/minute out of combat. That would make spending points even in a target-poor environment (like against a BBG) feasible, as you will still start the next fight with panache.
My ideas on how to fix the Finnese/Dex-to-Damage problem. This is independant of Precise Strike
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts against light or one-handed weapons usable with Weapon Finesse. At 3rd level, she may add her Dexterity modifier in place of her Strength modifier on damage rolls made with light or one-handed weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
I don't see why precise strike could not be level 2 or even level 1. Is a quite conditional 1-point damage boost enough to make someone dip into the class?
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This would be a lot less hassle if Panache was per-encounter and not per-day. Not that I hold out hope for that, but, hey, I can dream.
I actually think it's a great mechanic at its core: A small resource pool with a fast throughput (faster than Grit) to power your abilities. It makes for a good contrast with other mechanics (such as spells) whose large resource pools can only be replenished once per day.
Yes, the pool should probably be 1+CHA (minimum 0). Yes the abilities that work "while you have 1 Panache" should just be active at all times. Yes the deeds themselves need a lot of work. But I think they've hit on a potential solution here for making "mundane" (non-magical) classes more interesting, versatile, and effective. All it needs are the Deeds to match, which I feel the Swashbuckler largely lacks at the moment.
All "fighting men" should have some variant of this ability, or spellcasting, when Pathfinder 2nd Edition comes along.
Lightning Strike is nice but Haste has been online for awhile now - why the penalty?Why they woudl not stack? The penalty is because is a flurry of blow action, great for two handers.
Maybe a flurry of strikes for the swashbuckler?
Emphasis mine. Swashbuckler is theoretically an einhander class, remember?
Also: please no Flurry. It was a horrible mechanic when WotC made it, SKR made it even worse, and on top of all of that it has action conflicts with being a mobile combatant, making it incredibly non-appropriate.
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Mobility is a thorny issue, game design wise. So much of the combat system is designed around the notion of one character approaching and kicking things off with a single attack and the other getting to counter with a huge pile of attacks, that it's really understandable not to want to mess with that. Pounce is the holy grail of a lot of weird munchkin build attempts I've seen, because hey, give a high level melee character or two a way to full attack that big bad chapter ending AP boss on the first round and it's going to die without taking a turn. Introduce swift runner's shirts to a melee heavy party if you want to see a live demonstration.
Pounce is not even that great. Martial character are desperate for it not because Pounce is broken, but because those characters have such pathetic mobility (Thanks to 3.0 awful full attack mechanics) that anything that can actually help with it is seen as a huge boon!
I mean... tempting fruits dangling within easy reach of single level dips as is:
Barbarian- +10' movement and a big pile of rage rounds!
Bard- Untrained knowledge checks, a big pile of skills, a spell or two, and a bunch of song abilities.
Cleric- Access to every level 1 spell on their list, and as many party-wide 1d6 heals as you have the cha for!
Fighter- Have a free feat and proficiency with everything!
Paladin- Detect evil all you want and add your cha to hit AC and saves vs. one target a day!
And yet I don't see any of those classes as a dip class (other than Fighter, that is) because they get so much cool stuff at later levels. I'd even say that Bard is usually a pretty bad dip except for very specific builds. Paladin comes with strings attached, so unless you want to play Paladin who just happens to belong to another class (e.g.: I love my Gunslinger Paladin build!), it's usually not a great idea. Barbarians get a lot of stuff, but they get so many cool features later that no one looks at them as dip class in the same manner they look at Fighters.
And more than that, it akes sense to me that a character who wants to be a better fighter would take levels in Fighter or Barbarian. I don't see anything wrong with that. Just like I see no problem at someone dippin g levels of Monk to be a best unarmed combatant. The problem is when those classes get nothing interesting or useful at higher levels, so losing class levels doesn't matter.
I'd have no problem with people taking levels in Swashbucklers to be better Dex-based combatants. Just give the class enough rewards for sticking with it and players will do it.
BTW, no smart martial character would dump their Str below 11~12 or so, since that's the minimum necessary to carry your own (light) armor, weapons and magical gear.
I know Dex is a powerful attribute, but dueling is a very weak combat style, so it's not a problem. Dervish Dance makes Dueling a viable option, but it's not even close to competing with 2-handers. It's usually taken only by those who are forced into dueling anyway (e.g.: Magus) and even then, they have great incentive for going the Str route (Power Attack, 2-handed attacks after moving, carrying stuff, CMB, 2 extra feats, etc)
Precise Strike is not super complicated, but it is more complicated than necessary. While subtracting an Character level and then multiplying is an easy step, it's equally unnecessary, boring and annoying.
Although, if you added it to the one above, you'd essentially be getting a full attack as a standard action, with only a -2 penalty on attacks.
I'm amazingly okay with this. Pounce never destroyed a storyline.
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Although, if you added it to the one above, you'd essentially be getting a full attack as a standard action, with only a -2 penalty on attacks.I'm amazingly okay with this. Pounce never destroyed a storyline.
Remind me to tell you about the time that a Tiger TPK'd an APL 3 party and ended the entire campaign. It was a randome encounter. Tigers pounce.
R.I.P - The OG Treehouse Player Characters.
Although, if you added it to the one above, you'd essentially be getting a full attack as a standard action, with only a -2 penalty on attacks.I'm amazingly okay with this. Pounce never destroyed a storyline.Remind me to tell you about the time that a Tiger TPK'd an APL 3 party and ended the entire campaign. It was a randome encounter. Tigers pounce.
R.I.P - The OG Treehouse Player Characters.
Color me unsurprised. Low-level characters are amazingly fragile.
However, if I must get more specific, PCs having pounce never destroyed a storyline. Combat-related powers are, generally speaking, Storyline Safe since combat is a very specific and typically inefficient way of molding the campaign world to your will. 'S part of the reason my previous post called for Swashbucklers to have something to do when the game isn't Murder Enabled.
I don't know if this has been addressed or even brought up, cause I didn't see it in the OP, but Nimble needs a rewrite:
At 3rd level, a swashbuckler gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. Anything that causes the swashbuckler to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the Swashbuckler to lose this dodge bonus. This bonus increases by 1 for every four levels beyond 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level).
You gain it at 3rd and improves every four levels beyond 2nd, that feels odd.
And also, everyone talks about being STR based means better damage, but I just don't see it, especially considering that, at least RAI, precise strike doesn't work with two handed fighting. The only thing that changes between STR and DEX swashbucklers is one feat (dervish dance). Could anyone enlighten me?
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I would like to see this class tied more to charisma. As it stands now, a Bloodrager has more use for charisma than the Swashbuckler.
I would really like to see the Swashbuckler get some deeds that could be useful out of combat, maybe a deed called 'witty quip', which works like derring-do, but applies to Charisma based skills, such as Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate.
I don't know if I would currently build a swashbuckler that is based around combat expertise and combat manoeuvre feats. The Pommel Swipe deed can be used if I want to trip, and Targetted Strike can be used to disarm and trip more effectively than a trip or disarm combat manoeuvre.
There's always piranha strike instead of power attack if i want.
The problem with piranha strike, besides the double cost: "When wielding a light weapon"
The most thematic weapons for this class- Rapier, cutlass, sword cane, long sword, and in your case, scimitar are all off the table here. You're pretty much stuck as a knife fighter, which really doesn't work for me, conceptually.
Unfortunately, both seem to be coming from the same place, but picking different arbitrary weapon restrictions that don't quite match up. Two knives vs. one thrusting sword. Bad news is, we need a DIFFERENT off-brand power attack. Good news, it'd be going into a mainline sourcebook where people could find it.
I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."
That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
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If they were leaning toward pounce I would rather see something like a leap attack that requires an acrobatics check. (see Dire Corby or Bulette)
Either way, if Pommel Strike works as a swift action attack for a panache point, then that actually adds a fair amount of mobile fighting. I mean most swashbucklers aren't going to see their 4th iterative attack since most campaigns end before 16th.... so basically you could move and get 2 attacks at full BAB with a trip attempt using pommel strike for 1 panache.
That is actually pretty darn cool. Whether or not precise strike works with this is fairly cloudy though. I mean to use pommel strike you need to use a weapon that also qualifies for Precise Strike, but then the damage type becomes bludgeoning which might disqualify it, but it is still the right type of weapon... its a bit confusing all around, but if it gets cleared up I think this is a big deal ability.
If you compare any iterative attack odds array from 7-15 you will find that 2 attacks at full generally come out looking pretty close to 2-3 attacks iteratively.
So, for example with a +5 accuracy stat, a +2 weapon, focus/greater focus... the swash has an attack bonus of BAB + 9. Lets use this moving forward. (obviously bonuses change as you gain levels and I am ignoring weapon training, but it wont matter)
Here's the breakdown. Lets assume that the AC you are up against is, on average, 15 + level (this isnt far from the truth for at CR=lvl monsters)
lvl 7 (vs. AC 22)
Full Attack: +16/+11, avg 1.25 hits
Pommel Swipe: +16/+16, avg 1.5 hits
lvl 11 (vs. AC 26)
Full Attack: +20/+15/+10, avg 1.5 hits
Pommel Swipe: +20/+20, avg 1.5 hits
lvl 15 (vs. AC 30)
Full Attack: +24/+19/+14, avg 1.5 hits
Pommel Swipe: +24/+24, avg 1.5 hits
Obviously you aren't getting nearly as many crits with pommel swipe, and you have higher damage potential with a full-attack, but the fact is that this one Deed is doing quite a lot to help the Swashbuckler's mobility in combat.
The problem with piranha strike, besides the double cost: "When wielding a light weapon"
Drat. Oh well. I'm not a big fan of power attack. (i know, sacrilidge, but i count rounds not dpr, there's a difference... and the dice gods hate me)
The problem with piranha strike, besides the double cost: "When wielding a light weapon"
Drat. Oh well. I'm not a big fan of power attack. (i know, sacrilidge, but i count rounds not dpr, there's a difference... and the dice gods hate me)
Not sure what counting rounds instead of DPR means, but yeah Power Attack is pretty much a staple of every melee focused build. Its hard to make an argument against it. It is so prevalent that it has been widely suggested that maybe it should just be baked in rather than a feat.
Piranha Strike is... not a great replacement, since it is so limited (not multiplied when using two-hands and only usable with light weapons.)
But a low str swashbuckler who can't get power attack will be better with a Kukri and Piranha Strike than a Rapier and neither. It is, after all, only a difference of 1 damage.
People tend to get caught up in the damage die like it makes a big difference. It really doesn't. You are talking about +1 damage going from a 1d4 to a 1d6 and +2 damage on crits. That is not a big deal in any way.
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Hey Stephen, did you guys intend for Precise Strike to be negated by concealment?
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Hey Stephen, did you guys intend for Precise Strike to be negated by concealment?
Yup, the other bane of the rogue class.
Not sure what counting rounds instead of DPR means
Its how many actions it takes your party to drop a foe. If the extra damage from power attack doesn't drop them any sooner, then it doesn't matter how much further their head flies when you finally put them down.
But a low str swashbuckler who can't get power attack will be better with a Kukri and Piranha Strike than a Rapier and neither. It is, after all, only a difference of 1 damage.
The point of a scimitar is to dervish dance with it, which is at least 4 points and climbing.
People tend to get caught up in the damage die like it makes a big difference. It really doesn't. You are talking about +1 damage going from a 1d4 to a 1d6 and +2 damage on crits. That is not a big deal in any way.
Static damage or bust!
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uggh, Dervish Dance.... just uggh.
I mean, its a feat for followers of Sarenrae .. so thematically I kind of hate it... and I just don't like the fact that in any game where this feat is allowed... its basically going to ramrod swashbucklers into the Scimitar.
I mean... I dunno, its crazy that this dex to damage thing has caused such uproar. It has been the killing blow to every other dex-based fighter... I guess dervish dance is a band-aid, and in a home game this won't be an issue because I would just modify the class to actually fit its theme.
But it displays a serious misunderstanding of the game rules and how it has been played by melee classes up to this point to entirely ignore the issue. Strength is king until there is a concrete reason for it NOT to be. This isn't some vague opinion or just personal experience. The truth of this mantra has been meted out on these boards and in games across the land for years, reaching all the way back to 3.0. I would like rogues to be better with daggers than longhammers, but it just doesn't work out that way... and the swashbuckler becomes the next in that line. One more melee combatant that can chuck boulders and crush skulls in the palm of their hand.
I am sure that, much like rogues, many players will make the sub-optimal dexterity choice for the swashbuckler... and that won't make a bad character any more than it makes a bad fighter, but it saddens me to know that it will be the sub-optimal choice.
And for the love of Desna, PLEASE rewrite precise strike to specifically preclude the use of a heavy pick in two hands.
OK.
To revamp the Swashbuckler, maybe they should stick real close to the Gunsmith.
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude and Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d10
Swashbuckler class skills, 4 or 6 + Int modifier ranks
Proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, light armor and shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Deeds, Grit, Signature Weapon, Weapon Finesse
2. Nimble +1
3. Deeds
4. Bonus Feat
5. Improved Signature Weapon
6. Nimble +2
7. Deeds
8. Bonus Feat
9. Greater Signature Weapon
10. Nimble +3
11. Deeds
12. Bonus Feat
13. Advanced Signature Weapon
14. Numble +4
15. Deeds
16. Bonus Feat
17. Superior Signature Weapon
18. Nimble +5
19. Deeds
20. Signature Weapon Mastery,
Each time the Swashbuckler gets Deeds, he gets an offensive ability, a defensive ability, and a mobility/utility ability. Most will be "if you have 1 grit in your pool, you can use this" type powers. Only very dramatic powers will have a spend a grit point cost.
Signature Weapon gives the swashbuckler Weapon focus in a standard Finesse-able weapon, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency in an exotic Finesse-able weapon (like the elven curveblade), OR the ability to use Weapon Finesse with a normally un-Finesse-able one-handed martial melee weapon (like the longsword) or simple double weapon (like the quarterstaff); if he has Exotic Weapon Proficiency in an exotic one-handed melee weapon, he can select that weapon as his Signature Weapon, like a falcata or katana or wakizashi.
At levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, the Signature Weapon improves, much like Weapon Training, but with fun extras, like Improved Critical, Dex to Damage, a bonus to CMD, melee touch attacks to confirm criticals, increased critical multipliers, flurry of blows, swift attack at highest bonus, etc. etc.
Nimble will be boosted add Charisma to AC if unarmored and lightly encumbered.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but why not have the swashbuckler be treated as having the weapon finesse feat while there are points in the panache pool.
Think classic cinema, when the dashing swordsman is flummoxed by a parry or a disarm he smashes a vase over the the foes head.
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Hey Stephen, did you guys intend for Precise Strike to be negated by concealment?Yup, the other bane of the rogue class.
This is something about the rogue that I HATE (and immediately house-ruled IMC). A rogue has to avoid being in dark alleys, becasue in the dim light in there, they can't sneak attack!
* Facepalm!
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but why not have the swashbuckler be treated as having the weapon finesse feat while there are points in the panache pool.
Think classic cinema, when the dashing swordsman is flummoxed by a parry or a disarm he smashes a vase over the the foes head.
Problem with this is that it COMPLETELY hoses a Dex-based swashbuckler when out of panache - not only can't he do damage, he also cannot hit or parry. So effectively you lose 1 point of panache for being Dex-based. Not good encouragement. And I think I've seen grit-draining (and thus presumably panache-drawing) abilities out there. With this rule, those would be obsolesce for the swashbuckler in a little box. Even more so than now.
Effectively, this idea puts another nail in the coffin of the dexbuckler.
I don't know if this was discussed, but it seems to me a swashbuckler should at least have the option of getting some feats that would improve his combat maneuvers like disarm etc.
however, since they are MAD, no way a swashbuckler would have Int 13, so they can't take Combat Expertise.
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Here are some of my more recent thoughts after play testing a level one swashbuckler last week.
I needed more Panache... Exactly one more Panache. I agree with the idea for Panache to be 1+CHA with a min of zero adding one more point at 7th level. This will prevent dumping CHA below 10, and it will allow for a character with decent CHA (14) to have 3 Panache. Why 3? 3allows me to derring-do into combat, Parry an attack and then Riposte. I had no problem with refilling PAnache, crits were easy to come by at first level, but having only 2 panache left me just attacking while hoping to get a crit. Because of the way panache is written, unless I take a now mandatory extra panache feat or pour all of my ability upgrades into CHA, this low number of Panache points will become problematic later when I have more choices.
On to parry, tried it twice, never succeeded, may have been unlucky dice rolls, but the cost of parry/riposte is too height. I still recommend that Parry costs a panache, and riposte costs an AoO, unless Combat Expertise is given for free at 2nd level (move SB Finesse to first in this case)
I had a hard time hitting without DEX to attack. SB finesse needs to move to 1st level. Leave the weapon selection as is, but allow it to count as weapon finesse for the purposes of other feats.
I did not have a problem making my will or fort saves, lucky dice rolls, but there were tense dramatic moments when I made those rolls. The drama added to the feel of playing a SB, but this class will be hurting for Will later on. Rethink adding CHA to Will at some point, remove Bravery and call it Bravado to do this.
DEX to damage, yes, please, and all that. At some point, possibly at fourth level, add this as an optional feat for the SB. Make it a fighter only feat if necessary. Don't make it a automatic feat, because strength based SBs need to be viable, I'm looking at you Porthos :)
Those are my thoughts for now based off one first level playtest
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Here are some of my more recent thoughts after play testing a level one swashbuckler last week.
I needed more Panache... Exactly one more Panache. I agree with the idea for Panache to be 1+CHA with a min of zero adding one more point at 7th level. This will prevent dumping CHA below 10, and it will allow for a character with decent CHA (14) to have 3 Panache. Why 3? 3allows me to derring-do into combat, Parry an attack and then Riposte. I had no problem with refilling PAnache, crits were easy to come by at first level, but having only 2 panache left me just attacking while hoping to get a crit. Because of the way panache is written, unless I take a now mandatory extra panache feat or pour all of my ability upgrades into CHA, this low number of Panache points will become problematic later when I have more choices.
On to parry, tried it twice, never succeeded, may have been unlucky dice rolls, but the cost of parry/riposte is too height. I still recommend that Parry costs a panache, and riposte costs an AoO, unless Combat Expertise is given for free at 2nd level (move SB Finesse to first in this case)
I had a hard time hitting without DEX to attack. SB finesse needs to move to 1st level. Leave the weapon selection as is, but allow it to count as weapon finesse for the purposes of other feats.
I did not have a problem making my will or fort saves, lucky dice rolls, but there were tense dramatic moments when I made those rolls. The drama added to the feel of playing a SB, but this class will be hurting for Will later on. Rethink adding CHA to Will at some point, remove Bravery and call it Bravado to do this.
DEX to damage, yes, please, and all that. At some point, possibly at fourth level, add this as an optional feat for the SB. Make it a fighter only feat if necessary. Don't make it a automatic feat, because strength based SBs need to be viable, I'm looking at you Porthos :)
Those are my thoughts for now based off one first level playtest
Yep
The main issue I have with the current setup is that there is no real penalty for having a charisma of 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 (lowest scores you can start with) because of the minimum 1.
And that also means that there is no benefit to having a charisma of 12 or 13.
So any swashbuckler with a charisma between 5 and 13 has the exact same panache pool, and that feels wrong. Hence me building a dwarven swashbuckler with a 5 charisma for my example character. He takes extra panache, and he is now just as good as a swashbuckler with a 16 charisma and no feat. You should not be able to bridge an 11 point gulf between stats with a single feat.
In light of that, I would not mind seeing a panache pool equal to TWICE the Swashbuckler's charisma bonus (minimum 1).
That way you can still tank a stat if you must, but more importantly, you never totally lose panache for taking ability damage.... and a 12 charisma gets 2 points, so there is a difference between 10 and 12 (which currently there is not).
A swashbuckler with a 14 charisma may even feel good about not needing to take extra grit, which is good, because extra grit should feel like EXTRA... not mandatory
Yep
The main issue I have with the current setup is that there is no real penalty for having a charisma of 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 (lowest scores you can start with) because of the minimum 1.
And that also means that there is no benefit to having a charisma of 12 or 13.
So any swashbuckler with a charisma between 5 and 13 has the exact same panache pool, and that feels wrong. Hence me building a dwarven swashbuckler with a 5 charisma for my example character. He takes extra panache, and he is now just as good as a swashbuckler with a 16 charisma and no feat. You should not be able to bridge an 11 point gulf between stats with a single feat.
So, let me get this straight. It's not ok for a single feat to bridge an 11 point gap in Charisma, but...
You want the Swashbuckler to have a built in Dex to Damage mechanics so he can dump Strength to a 7 and get the damage out of their 11 point higher Dexterity score...
Walked into that one, didn't you? =)
Yep
The main issue I have with the current setup is that there is no real penalty for having a charisma of 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 (lowest scores you can start with) because of the minimum 1.
And that also means that there is no benefit to having a charisma of 12 or 13.
So any swashbuckler with a charisma between 5 and 13 has the exact same panache pool, and that feels wrong. Hence me building a dwarven swashbuckler with a 5 charisma for my example character. He takes extra panache, and he is now just as good as a swashbuckler with a 16 charisma and no feat. You should not be able to bridge an 11 point gulf between stats with a single feat.
So, let me get this straight. It's not ok for a single feat to bridge an 11 point gap in Charisma, but...
You want the Swashbuckler to have a built in Dex to Damage mechanics so he can dump Strength to a 7 and get the damage out of their 11 point higher Dexterity score...
Walked into that one, didn't you? =)
Not even a little.
The swashbuckler will still need a 13 str for power attack if they want to be a competent fighter. All full BAB melee classes need it. So you start needing a 13.
You also can't dump strength because you will tank your CMD.
You also probably want to be able to, you know, wear armor. The carrying capacity issue is a very real thing, and with a 7 strength you are going to seriously limit your ability even just to wear a full compliment of items.
Thirdly, dex to damage only gives you the other half of what you are already getting with finesse.
And finally, I am not suggesting that this be a feat, I am suggesting that it be a class feature
So, let me get this straight. It's not ok for a single feat to bridge an 11 point gap in Charisma, but...
You want the Swashbuckler to have a built in Dex to Damage mechanics so he can dump Strength to a 7 and get the damage out of their 11 point higher Dexterity score...
Walked into that one, didn't you? =)
Considering you took a whole class (not just a feat) to be a Dex-based combatant, it's hardly the same. This "Let's make a Dex-based class, but then not make it Dex-based at all" thing is ridiculous.
Besides, with Str 7 you can't even carry light armor and weapons without being encumbered. Also, no Power Attack.
EDIT: Ninja'ed by Lord+Malkov... Damn Vanishing Trick and Improved Initiative... ¬¬'
Has there been any talk about Parry and Riposte not costing any panache? Maybe just keep a reserve of 1 to use them?
And maybe let the Swashbuckler make a number of AoO a round equal to his current panache pool +1?
Has there been any talk about Parry and Riposte not costing any panache? Maybe just keep a reserve of 1 to use them?
And maybe let the Swashbuckler make a number of AoO a round equal to his current panache pool +1?
And make it actually usable without making you completely suck because you lost access to Precise Strike?
BLASPHEMY!!!
Seriuously, though... I still don't see why it can't simply work like Snake style but based on Bluff or Sleight of Hand instead of Sense Motive. It'd be useful, flavorful, balanced and far more fun to use.
Play testing, and our swashbuckler very rarely used party, until low in hp. Reason was he felt that unless they knew it was a hit, it was a waste of panache. Particularly true at 1st levels, compounding the lack of finesse. We started playing with other mechanics to see what felt appropriate:
1: Spend 1 panache, gain +4 AC. Thought was that AC already encompasses, dodging/blocking, etc. it felt appropriate power-wise, but was a bit dull.
2: when you are hit in combat, you can spend 1panache to force a re-roll. You must accept the result of the re-roll. This was exciting. It felt quite a bit more powerful, and we had to rule that creatures larger than the swashbuckler got a +4 on the re-roll. Our swashbuckler was able to parry and riposte on an ogre, however, and it was incredibly satisfying. Additionally, there was a hit that was turned into a crit, which kept (for me) the sense of a gamble.
The class needs ... the option to combine Dex to damage with Precise Strike for optimizers, but it doesn't need both in the core of the class. And I would rather not see the designers sacrifice the class's long term capabilities in favor of a short term boost.
This is exactly what is currently accomplished in the Swashbuckler class. Precise Strike gives the long term damage for those who play with the core line of books only. To appease the optimizers, both the Agile weapon property and the Dervish Dance feat are out there in supplemental setting books. Based on that, I REALLY DO NOT expect the baseline Swashbuckler's damage dealing features to change in any significant way before the release of the class. I think this thread has bore out a lot of good idea, but unless the developers have been following it on a nearly hourly basis, it is going to be tough for them to pick through all the talk about Dex to damage or other damage mechanics to find those few good ideas...