Swashbuckler Discussion

[Eirikrautha]

Googleshng wrote:

Personally, I'd like to see mandatory dex to damage kick in at some point, taking the easy street strength build out of the picture, so focus can be placed on some minor tweaks all over that the class really does need. Reaping the benefits of using your main stat to hit and do damage, and having access to power attacks are a must, because those contribute the lion's share of your damage. I'd also like to see the pendulum swing in such a way that the swash is usually the one hitting a little harder, to make up for the time when the swash is stuck fighting a flying oozey elemental with ranged attacks that deny dex bonuses. That would bring things in line with melee classes in general- you can usually do your extra schtick and do more damage than the pure fighter, but the fighter never finds himself in a situation where his damage output suddenly crumbles away. Ideally, I'd actually like to see significantly better damage from the swash, really, because not only does a paladin/ranger/barbarian/monk/brawler hit harder than the fighter under favorable conditions, they also get spells and crazy super powers and such going on. All swashbucklers get is a pile of glorified bonus feats with costs so prohibitive they never get to use them. My suggestions to date aren't aiming for that level though, just the "slightly worse damage output than a fighter with comparable stats" level.

I agree completely!!! What is killing this class is the fact that it can't do anything well enough to justify taking it. Sure, you can be a swashbuckler because you want to roleplay one, but nothing stops you from roleplaying a fighter or rogue exactly the same way. Nothing makes roleplaying the swashbuckler as a swashbuckler better than roleplay anything else as a swashbuckler.

If the stated goal of these hybrids is to offer options to single-classed characters that are not available through normal multi-classing (which I think is a fair paraphrase of the Devs' statements on other threads), then I think the swashbuckler has failed to reach that goal.

Here's why:

Combat effectiveness: the swashbuckler has no role in combat that could not be better achieved with another class (especially multi-classing). It is out-damaged by strong fighter and barbarian classes in melee at low level, and blaster spellcasters at high level (to say nothing of the saves!). It doesn't control the battlefield better than many fighter, cavalier, or even monk builds, nor does it have more mobility than rogues, barbarians, etc. It does nothing I can't do with a small-dip multiclass. When the best build of swashbuckler dumps Chr and Dex for Str, you know you have a problem.

OoC skills: fewer than most "face" classes, a mediocre class ability that acts as a +3 the vast majority of the time (that you can spend your one Signature Deed for if you want... that's brilliant!). Any Bard, Oracle, Ninja will out-skill you easily and might out "face" you.

Class Abilities: I can dip two levels of MoMS and have a better parry and riposte mechanic than swashbuckler on any class in the game. Period. In fact, you might as well move Parry and Riposte to much higher levels, since they have been worthless in all my low-level testing. You can't riposte unless you take combat reflexes (meaning something else vital has to wait until later), and even then the only ripostes I've ever made have been on attacks that already missed. So fully one half of the functionality of parry/riposte is worthless on any individual usage (any roll high enough to hit is usually, considering the bonus of most CR-equal or +1 creatures, too high to parry... and any roll low enough to riposte on wouldn't have hit anyway). The Derring-Do roll is of limited utility 83% of the time (literally), and the movement/attack abilities either prevent bonus damage (by using precise strike's swift action) or prevent a full attack (negating even more damage at higher levels).

I love the idea of the swashbuckler, and the critical hit focus is good, but I actually think the Devs got too caught up in the mechanics of the class. The argument seems to be "the swashbuckler is unique because it uses panache" rather than because it can do X, Y, or Z exceptionally well. So far I haven't seen a single swashbuckler build that I couldn't best in its "chosen" area of expertise with a multiclass build (or sometimes even a single class w/ archetype).

I really want this class to succeed (i.e. be fun and useful to play). But right now I just can't see it as anything but the ACG's trap class (move over monk!).

P.S. I think the restrictions on PFS playtesting are really going to hurt this class. I understand (and have read many posts above) that houserule/homebrew games might get a completely different result with the class. But PFS, where every rulebook and splatbook are legal is the real test of whether a class can be both fun and useful. No offense to the non-PFSers out there, but you can always finagle with the rules to make a class fit what you want it to be. In PFS, not so much. It is either designed well, or it flounders. And restricting PFS swashbucklers to play-from-zero/no-respecing is going to mean that you will miss out on the mid/high level playtest in a controlled environement...

[Lord_Malkov]

Maxximilius wrote:

Also, no, you don't get to 2H piercing weapons with precise strike. The wording is clear in both execution and intent :

Quote:
a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
"With a one-handed piercing melee weapon" means you only do that on a one-handed weapon, not a weapon wielded in two hands which would become two-handed. Likewise, wielding a 2H weapon in one hand makes it count as a one-handed weapon.

"A swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" : if you are two-handed, you are wielding a weapon in your other hand, even if its the same as your off-hand's. Even by stretching the RAW it's obvious you're not supposed to 2H this weapon and I'm sure we can expect a clearer wording in the final document.

Woah woah woah..

Wielding a weapon in two-hands does not suddenly transform it into a two-handed weapon. It is still a one-handed piercing melee weapon regardless of how you wield it.

Same with a Bastard Sword, even if you don't have the proficiency and HAVE to use two-hands to wield it, it is NOT a two-handed weapon.

Similarly, you are not attacking with a weapon in your other hand OR using a shield in this case. You could, for example, hold a weapon in your off-hand without penalty. A TWF swashbuckler could, for instance, use precise strike only when moving and attacking, and revert to TWF when making full-attacks.

A swashbuckler could also carry an offhand dagger with the defending property, or a weapon with the blocking property. They could even combine this with two-weapon defense if they wanted.

In any case, as it is currently written, you can indeed use two-hands to attack with a single one-handed piercing melee weapon.

I do expect this to change, but as it stands this is 100% doable. (though it doesn't do anything for a rapier).

As to the rest of your post... Dervish Dancing is not always available as a feat, and agile is not always available as a weapon enchantment. If these things are going to make it into a Core book, then fine... the swashbuckler should STILL probably get dex to damage as a class feature.

If you want a versatile fighter with lots of options, then play a fighter. There currently is no good option for a dex fighter in the game. That is the gap that this class should be filling. Even if dex becomes the best option, it doesn't mean that other options don't exist, just as much as dex is still an option for the Core fighter even though it is the weaker choice.

I am advocating that the swashbuckler class should flip that equation so that dexterity is the best option and strength is a weaker option. We already have a class that uses strength as the best option with dexterity as a weaker option.

And none of this is about damage output or any of that. It is just about matching mechanics to theme.

[Whos_That]

master_marshmallow wrote:

If you can take a feat more than once, it will specifically say so in the feat's description. You sounds like one of those cheesers who tries and takes Spell Perfection twice....

Wouldn't be the kind of person to cheese the spell perfection thats...brutal. Using SOME semblance of realism. I will rescind my statement about using it on the same ability more than once, because most feats will say if they stack with each other. But I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to take the feat more than once for DIFFERENT abilities, most feats that say that you can take it more than once, say it has to be with a different ability/weapon etc. But at the same time it doesn't say that you cannot take this feat more than once, which a lot of feats and abilities also state.

Judgement call on my end would be yes to more than once, no to same ability.

[Lord_Malkov]

When you can take a feat more than once, it says so in its description. This is universally true. So spell focus, weapon focus, extra rage etc. all allow multiple feat purchases and say so directly in their text.

Signature Deed does not have this text.

[Knick]

Tels already took a crack at this one, but I like complaining, so here we go.

Javaed wrote:

Kairos Dawnfury wrote:

Just realized if we're allowed to take Gunslinger feats, I can tank CHA back down, put those points in STR and CON and grab Extra Grit once or Twice.

-8 Cha + Extra Grit = 3 Grit
Vs
14 Cha = 2 Grit

The problem with this plan is that the class has Deeds you'd actually want to use on a regular basis. Many commentators are planning on going with moderate to high amounts of Charisma AND picking up an "Extra Panache" feat. If you dump Charisma you're deciding on not using your deeds until the middle levels, when most builds will be able to afford picking up Extra Panache multiple times.

I'll agree that there are some deeds that are neat and I would want to use, but that if I am trading my effectiveness for them I won't. Here's the list of Deeds that cost Panache:

Derring-Do: Not bad at low level, before the d20 skill system breaks down. The random nature of it, however, makes it a tough spend as long as I'm deciding to do it before the roll. I can see myself using this at lower levels.

Opportune Parry: Man, I want this to be worth it. Let's face it, without finesse at level 1, Dex-based swashbucklers can't use this for a whole level anyway. I haven't playtested this enough, but I REALLY want this to be good. Some initial reports I've read, however, say it is not very good. I want to think I would use this all of the time, but I don't think I would unless I had already been swung at by a creature at least once at high level since the attack bonus get pretty crazy.

Riposte: Well, if I happen to have Combat Reflexes and I'm a Dex-based swash, this might come up once in awhile. If I have a pool of at least 3 panache and the chance comes up to use this deed I'm absolutely doing it, but it is situational. I started out loving this when I first read the class, but I'm having some trouble with the 2 Panache + 2 AoO cost.

Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.

Precise Strike: This seems to be the runaway favorite deed for panache expenditure, but considering it is the surest bet, that makes sense. Using this all the time.

Pommel Swipe: I personally like this one, but I can see how it would quickly get drowned out by Precise Strike. Also, I'm assuming I don't get my passive Precise Strike boost to damage because it is the pommel and the feat calls out bludgeoning damage--but this should be clarified since it is technically an attack with a one-handed piercing weapon. Sort of a "gunslinger copy/paste" issue. If you get your damage bonuses to this it is the greatest Deed ever, so I'm assuming you don't. If I get all of my damage, I will use this almost exclusively. Since I'm 95% sure I don't, I will use it in fights with multiple enemies that seem kinda tough and won't die quickly if I just spend the point on Precise Strike.

Targeted Strike: If only it wasn't a full-round action. Making this a standard action would be awesome, but otherwise I'm trading attacks for negligible status effects. Don't know if you ever played/played with/ran for a Gunslinger, but try to recall how often this got used. If the bad guy is holding the "big button" I will use this, but otherwise I'm just swinging. If this were a standard action, I would use it a lot.

Bleeding Wound: Now we're talking. This is a deed that makes you want to use it AND rewards Dexterity. Need more of these. I can definitely see myself using this deed a lot if I have leftover Panache after Precise Strike.

Dizzying Defense: Or as I like to call it, Dizzying Logic. So I can spend a swift action and a Panache to Total Defense so that I cannot use Opportune Parry or prevent any enemies from running around me to murder my party. Fantastic. This one does not seem well thought out, unless Opportune Parry does not fall under any of the normal AoO restrictions--I suppose Opportune Parry's phrasing is "expend one use of an AoO" and "The Swashbuckler makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity." Riposte is absolutely not going to happen. This is the one time I can justify using Recovery! Perhaps change this to spending 1 Panache and a swift action to reduce/negate the penalties for fighting defensively? Is there some category beyond never use?

Perfect Thrust: Usually by 15th level I'll have a weapon that gets around a lot of DR, but I suppose since it gets through whacky stuff like DR/bludgeoning and DR/epic and DR/-. Another good way around DR, of course, is to add 15 to damage (or more as you advance beyond 15th level) with Precise Strike.

Cheat Death: This deed is what it is. Fun, but if you're using it you will probably need it again very quickly. That said, spending the panache beats dying!

Deadly Stab: For a 19th level ability I'm not sure how I feel about this one. The death attack is great, and I can still apply a critical feat effect (in case they save) if I'm reading it correctly. That said, you don't earn the Panache for the critical hit. So I guess if I'm not too interested in the other deeds, this is a good one.

Stunning Stab: 2 Panache to stun lock? Not bad. Stunning Critical has a tougher save DC at 19th, but the fact that you can do this without the crit is very nice. I would use this in some situations.

How much damage and durability are you willing to spend for these options. How many HP per level? How much lost damage per round? How low of a Will save? Ultimately, in order to fill the fighter role, the swashbuckler needs to be good at killing enemies while not being killed for as long as possible. Of the deeds that I would want to use on a regular basis, how many would I be willing to give up for a couple HP / level and a few points of damage on every swing? And when I can take one feat (Extra Panache) so that I don't have to give them up, why would I make the sacrifice? 7 CHA is the best way, mechanically, to build a swashbuckler, and I hate it.

[Kolokotroni]

Eirikrautha wrote:

Combat effectiveness: the swashbuckler has no role in combat that could not be better achieved with another class (especially multi-classing). It is out-damaged by strong fighter and barbarian classes in melee at low level, and blaster spellcasters at high level (to say nothing of the saves!). It doesn't control the battlefield better than many fighter, cavalier, or even monk builds, nor does it have more mobility than rogues, barbarians, etc. It does nothing I can't do with a small-dip multiclass. When the best build of swashbuckler dumps Chr and Dex for Str, you know you have a problem.

Thats not true in the least. Either a strength based or dervish dancing swashbuckler outdamages the 2handed fighter after a couple levels as it stands. It doesnt out damage barbarians, but barbs are also operating on a limited resource (rage) with a downside (fatigue). And I can assure you, you cant replicate the up and down dynamic nature of panache with a high crit weapon and solid damage with any multiclass dip. This class is very combat effective, and it creates some really cool moments with it's deeds. Its not perfect yet, but to say it has no role in combat is factually untrue.

Quote:

OoC skills: fewer than most "face" classes, a mediocre class ability that acts as a +3 the vast majority of the time (that you can spend your one Signature Deed for if you want... that's brilliant!). Any Bard, Oracle, Ninja will out-skill you easily and might out "face" you.

Except maybe the oracle, this is ture, but those classes are far more devoted to skills, the bard being a better face then you isnt saying you arent a good face. And neither the bard nor ninja have the combat potential of the swashbuckler, not by a mile.

Quote:

Class Abilities: I can dip two levels of MoMS and have a better parry and riposte mechanic than swashbuckler on any class in the game. Period. In fact, you might as well move Parry and Riposte to much higher levels, since they have been worthless in all my low-level testing. You can't riposte unless you take combat reflexes (meaning something else vital has to wait until later), and even then the only ripostes I've ever made have been on attacks that already missed. So fully one half of the functionality of parry/riposte is worthless on any individual usage (any roll high enough to hit is usually, considering the bonus of most CR-equal or +1 creatures, too high to parry... and any roll low enough to riposte on wouldn't have hit anyway). The Derring-Do roll is of limited utility 83% of the time (literally), and the movement/attack abilities either prevent bonus damage (by using precise strike's swift action) or prevent a full attack (negating even more damage at higher levels).

Parry probably needs work, but saying crane wing is better is like saying something isnt good enough at damage unless it can match a fully optimized pouncing barbarian. Crane wing is by most accounts really really powerful. A class ability not being up to snuff against something like that isnt a bad thing.

[Lord_Malkov]

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

It should probably be Parry for 1 panache, Riposte for one AoO. And riposte should come at a slightly higher level.

Targeted Strike... this is just bad. I would rather have a deed that let you spend 1 panache to ignore provoking an AoO when making a Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Steal or Reposition maneuver. This would get overlapped if you took the improved feats, but it would allow the swashbuckler to perform these pretty iconic deeds without needing to spend feats (and still wouldn't grant the other bonuses associated so a swashbuckler that takes the feats will still be better at it)

Dizzying Defense is indeed quite counter-productive. I would rather see this deed allow a swashbuckler to fight defensively with no penalties for the round and increase the fighting defensively bonus by +1 or +2. So, same effect on AC but without the loss of AoOs.

[Stephen Radney-MacFarland]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

[Maxximilius]

Knick wrote:

Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.

Let's say the BBEG scary hasted martial artist 5-foot steps into an adjacent square and begins to flurry/Power Attack/Dragon Style your face. Parrying all these Mike Tyson kisses will not get you out of trouble all day long.

Well, this deed instead basically grants you a +2 bonus to AC against the highest BAB attack, AND lets you get out of range off the itteratives because you are now 5 feet away from the guy who just used his 5 foot step already to get adjacent to you in the first place.
Sure, you lost our next turn's swift action and thus a lot of options, but at least you suffered at best a single hit instead of a full attack !

[Lord_Malkov]

Maxximilius wrote:

Knick wrote:

Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.

Let's say the BBEG scary hasted martial artist 5-foot steps into an adjacent square and begins to flurry/Power Attack/Dragon Style your face. Parrying all these Mike Tyson kisses will not get you out of trouble all day long.

Well, this deed instead basically grants you a +2 bonus to AC against the highest BAB attack, AND lets you get out of range off the itteratives because you are now 5 feet away from the guy who just used his 5 foot step already to get adjacent to you in the first place.
Sure, you lost our next turn's swift action and thus a lot of options, but at least you suffered at best a single hit instead of a full attack !

Or possibly even better, a reach weapon fighter uses a 5ft step and takes a swing at you, and you step IN to get adjacent to them for next round.

Then, they can stop their full-attack and move, but you are there to smack them one if they do.

[Tels]

Just to throw out another example of a Swashbuckler this class would have a hard time emulating: Puss in Boots.

[Eirikrautha]

Maxximilius wrote:

Knick wrote:

Recovery: Looks good on a gunslinger, why not a melee character? Honestly, the worst part of this deed is Opportune Parry--seems like if I'm going to spend a panache to save myself, I'm probably better off betting on my attack roll over 2 extra AC. I'd rather replace this with Gunslinger's Dodge. Never going to use this.

Let's say the BBEG scary hasted martial artist 5-foot steps into an adjacent square and begins to flurry/Power Attack/Dragon Style your face. Parrying all these Mike Tyson kisses will not get you out of trouble all day long.

Well, this deed instead basically grants you a +2 bonus to AC against the highest BAB attack, AND lets you get out of range off the itteratives because you are now 5 feet away from the guy who just used his 5 foot step already to get adjacent to you in the first place.
Sure, you lost our next turn's swift action and thus a lot of options, but at least you suffered at best a single hit instead of a full attack !

Unless Step Up works against this (while Recovery says it is not a 5-foot step for AoO purposes, I would be curious to see an official ruling as to whether or not Step Up would still trigger), in which case you're still right there getting wailed on...

[Eirikrautha]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

Wow! Thanks for keeping us in the loop. That would help tremendously!

[Carlos Ovalle]

Playtest. I ran an intro Pathfinder Society module this past weekend. The party was comprised of a swashbuckler, a ranger, a barbarian, and a cleric, all level 1. The swashbuckler was dexterity-focused, wielded a rapier and used a buckler, and had the highest AC of the group. The swashbuckler was trained in several class skills that were useful in the module. Acrobatics for tumbling was particularly successful in both its combat effectiveness and style. The swashbuckler only really attempted to parry once. His AC was higher than his average attack role might have been, so parrying seemed particularly risky at that level. He may also have been "saving" his panache, but I wasn't clear on that. His damage was relatively low (especially relative to the barbarian, but who didn't see that coming?), so although he did successfully hit several enemies, he did not really have a chance to regain panache. Overall, the player and the other players really enjoyed having him in the group, and he very much contributed to the adventure's success in a variety of ways. (The one that surprised me was acting as the group's tank.)

[Maxximilius]

Immediate action riposte means at best once/round, but that's significant enough and at least doesn't require Combat Reflexes to be used at full efficiency.

Alone, this could go against the idea of making the class more Dex-oriented even though removing a feat tax to use the class feature is cool... unless you indeed revise the panache cost.

Quick question :
Using 1 panache parry as AoO + 1 panache riposte as Immediate, if I have 2 panache points in my pool, would my riposte attack be treated as if I had 1 point of panache in my pool for the purposes of Precise Strike even though I spent it to perform this attack roll ? This would make a world of difference in potential damage.

Also, question to playtesters :
Has anyone played a small-sized class and given feedback about the whole -4 cumulative penalty to Parry ? I haven't had the opportunity to test myself and this penalty seems at least from reading it awfully crippling despite the concept advertising for piercing agility over towering brutes.

[Stazamos]

Adding my voice into the group that doesn't care about a DEX bonus to damage. No new reasons that haven't already been said by others, but I think it deserves mentioning.

Mainly (and this reiterates other statements, but the Why is as important as the What), without DEX to damage, you have to decide, on a sliding scale, how much damage you want to do versus how much defense. With it, it's a no brainer: DEX, obviously. If the swashbuckler is lacking in damage, and I don't think it is (the ability to take weapon specialization, the presence of Precise Strikes, and the improved crit range all contribute nicely), surely there has to be some other way. For example, in my view, the finesse class feature helps allow you the choice of where you want to be in that sliding scale, rather than pigeonholing you into only using DEX for your attack rolls. When I played my swashbuckler, I ignored that class feature. If there is to be DEX to damage, then there has to be a way to tailor your swashbuckler.

As it is now, I think it works nicely: you can A) focus on STR, and optionally get a little DEX for the benefits of that, B) or focus on DEX, and hit often, but not quite so hard, but still non-negligibly. You can also C) balance a little between the two, which is what I did when I played this past weekend. It was a bad session for data gathering, though (example: I declare parry, enemy rolls a 20, negating my parry entirely; second time, I rolled a... 3. So, I didn't really get a sense of whether I like it). However, with 16 STR and 14 DEX, I had an effective character. I like the idea of being successful with multiple moderate scores, as opposed to focusing all your efforts into a single one. I had fun with it, but more testing is required.

Some thoughts:

The ability to keep one temporary panache point beyond your maximum, say, for one round, would be nice, in case you're full and want to do something cool with a great opening critical hit or something.

A deed to sunder or disarm without provoking an AOO would be kind of cool. Seems very swordsman-y to me, and though there are the feats for this, I personally am not interested in them (I'd rather never do it than get 13 INT, then Combat Expertise, and then a feat).

[Lord_Malkov]

I don't think step up would work.
It isn't a 5-ft step.
Stand Still also wouldn't work.

But the setup for denying a full-attack is not exactly going to come up all the time.

If the BBEG needs a 5-foot step to attack you, and you move away, then sure.... cool beans. But next round you will have to step in to them to get your full-attack, and then recovery won't help.

So it isn't going to come up all that often, but it can stop some nasty things like Pounce and maybe get you out of a jam or two. From that perspective, it is a well designed deed.

It can also be used to simply get better positioning and set up for your next round.

[Eirikrautha]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Parry probably needs work, but saying crane wing is better is like saying something isnt good enough at damage unless it can match a fully optimized pouncing barbarian. Crane wing is by most accounts really really powerful. A class ability not being up to snuff against something like that isnt a bad thing.

I was going to reply by talking about how a class-defining ability shouldn't be less effective than one that any class can take (and some classes can take by 2nd level), but considering the post by Mr. Radney-MacFarlane above, that's all moot. I'm glad to see that Parry/Riposte will be getting some work...

[WinterwolfNW]

I'd like to see the Swashbuckler be a Fighter-Rogue combo or Gunslinger-Rogue combo instead. A Fighter-Gunslinger combo is like a fighter with proficiencies in Guns.

[Trogdar]

critical threshold doesn't have any synergy with precision damage so having a high critical threshold is largely irrelevant for the purposes of damage... which is kind of weird. I expected this class to be swingy in its damage(getting more out of crits) but in reality it only gets panache.

Class mechanics that don't have any innate synergy are kind of strange.

[Athaleon]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

[Stephen Radney-MacFarland]

Maxximilius wrote:

Quick question :

Using 1 panache parry as AoO + 1 panache riposte as Immediate, if I have 2 panache points in my pool, would my riposte attack be treated as if I had 1 point of panache in my pool for the purposes of Precise Strike even though I spent it to perform this attack roll ? This would make a world of difference in potential damage.

No you wouldn't. You use it on the attack roll, you don't have it when you deal the damage.

[Stephen Radney-MacFarland]

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

[Stazamos]

Trogdar wrote:

critical threshold doesn't have any synergy with precision damage so having a high critical threshold is largely irrelevant for the purposes of damage... which is kind of weird. I expected this class to be swingy in its damage(getting more out of crits) but in reality it only gets panache.

*shrug*, I think synergy with gaining panache is pretty good on its own. The fact you can double it (edit: precise strike, that is), without requiring a crit, as a swift action for 1 panache is pretty nice.

But:

Athaleon wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

What about removing riposte as a separate ability, instead making it a free riposte if your parry roll is a confirmed critical threat (and still exceeds the attacker's roll)? It could cost panache, possibly not require an AOO, and make it more dynamic, and synergistic with the critical range increase? (Edit: I was a bit unclear what I meant by all this. Too many variables; basically, one ability: parry, and riposte is an optional reaction to a successful parry if the parry roll is a crit threat and confirmed. What the parry should cost, and what the riposte should cost, I'm not sure of myself.)

[Eirikrautha]

Athaleon wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Ehhhh, so long as Parry doesn't cost an immediate/swift, I don't have too much problem with choosing to use a deed, double damage, or hit back at an attack. That's a choice that adds some interest to your decision-making. It's still inferior to Crane Wing/Riposte, though, which is highly amusing to me...

[MechE_]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland, with the current wording of Precise Strike, it appears to be possible to use a one handed weapon in two hands to apply increased strength bonus and increased power attack to damage while still maintaining Precise Strike damage. Is this correct/intended?

[Lord_Malkov]

Meh, crane style takes feats. From that perspective, its okay with me to have a single feature like Parry/Riposte be a little bit worse off.

I mean, you need to spend 3 feats to get Crane Style/Wing/Riposte
and you need to spend a feat on improved unarmed strike
and you need to spend a feat on dodge
and you can't do it until 8th level
and it still costs an attack of opportunity
and it only works when fighting defensively
and it takes a swift action to enter the style

So... you know... Crane has its own issues. Parry/riposte are basically free. And you can use both, so its not like Crane Style is overlapping Parry to make it obsolete. You could, ostensibly, parry 1 attack with crane wing, riposte with crane riposte, parry another attack with parry and riposte again with riposte.

[Danbala]

This class show be all about style, bravery, and showmanship. In order to best represent this the swashbuckler should use Dexterity to hit and Charisma for damage. Physically, disadvantaged swashbucklers -- such as small sized gnomes or swashbucklers who are out numbered -- should find it easier to acquire panache. They should have an advantage when using an improvised weapon or when performing a feint.

[Lemmy]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

If it costs an immediate action (and therefore, your swift action) does it really need a Panache cost? Couldn't it work like Snake Style but based on Bluff instead?

Also, may I ask what are the thoughts on Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage instead of Swashbuckler Finesse and Precise Strike? Those features seem unnecessarily complicated right now.

And any ideas to give the class some actual mobility and easier access to combat maneuvers? They really can't afford Int 13 as it.

Saves should really be improved too.

[Whos_That]

Personally I like the idea of having multiple riposte per round as long as you have the AoO to do it, switching to once per round as an immediate action takes more away IMO. say with a dex of 20 you have 6 AoO per round, giving you up to three ripostes, as opposed to one that also takes away your immediate action for the round(some classes and/or abilities require immediates)

[Knick]

Also need a 20 CHA.

[mechaPoet]

Maxximilius wrote:

Also, question to playtesters :

Has anyone played a small-sized class and given feedback about the whole -4 cumulative penalty to Parry ? I haven't had the opportunity to test myself and this penalty seems at least from reading it awfully crippling despite the concept advertising for piercing agility over towering brutes.

It's difficult but not impossible. My gnome parried a large-sized creature's attack, but only because he had a high roll and the creature rolled something like a natural 3. So it would have missed anyway, but it did give me the chance to riposte. Later in the adventure, I parried a bugbear zombie's natural 18 with a natural 20, although I think I SHOULD have failed because I forgot to incorporate the -4. The bonus to attack that small creatures get makes this a net -3, which feels like it might be a holdover from the old 3.5 rules. If I had been a medium creature I would have parried the zombie, but as such I only avoided a potential one-shot because I accidentally cheated. So much for delivering swift, artful carnage to lumbering brutes.

[Lemmy]

mechaPoet wrote:

Maxximilius wrote:

Also, question to playtesters :

Has anyone played a small-sized class and given feedback about the whole -4 cumulative penalty to Parry ? I haven't had the opportunity to test myself and this penalty seems at least from reading it awfully crippling despite the concept advertising for piercing agility over towering brutes.

It's difficult but not impossible. My gnome parried a large-sized creature's attack, but only because he had a high roll and the creature rolled something like a natural 3. So it would have missed anyway, but it did give me the chance to riposte. Later in the adventure, I parried a bugbear zombie's natural 18 with a natural 20, although I think I SHOULD have failed because I forgot to incorporate the -4. The bonus to attack that small creatures get makes this a net -3, which feels like it might be a holdover from the old 3.5 rules. If I had been a medium creature I would have parried the zombie, but as such I only avoided a potential one-shot because I accidentally cheated. So much for delivering swift, artful carnage to lumbering brutes.

Yeah, that -4 is will really limit the usefulness of Riposte. Large and bigger creature are very common past 6th level. There is no need for such penalty. The ability already costs 2 points of panache and/or your swift action.

[Cubic Prism]

I've mainly been looking at Brawler and if this has been answered somewhere in the (as of writing this) 982 posts, sorry.

1. Removing Panache from the equation leaves the Swashbuckler with what unique flavor?
2. Without Panache (say you ran out and have bad luck) is it a fun and functional class?

From what I've skimmed, it appears that the Swashbuckler is unable to feel very "Swashbucklery" without Panache, i.e. a one trick pony. Also panache being a small pool with a random chance at refresh feels lackluster. My thoughts, though I haven't played one yet, so perhaps they are only uninformed.

[mechaPoet]

Lemmy wrote:

mechaPoet wrote:

Maxximilius wrote:

Also, question to playtesters :

Has anyone played a small-sized class and given feedback about the whole -4 cumulative penalty to Parry ? I haven't had the opportunity to test myself and this penalty seems at least from reading it awfully crippling despite the concept advertising for piercing agility over towering brutes.

It's difficult but not impossible. My gnome parried a large-sized creature's attack, but only because he had a high roll and the creature rolled something like a natural 3. So it would have missed anyway, but it did give me the chance to riposte. Later in the adventure, I parried a bugbear zombie's natural 18 with a natural 20, although I think I SHOULD have failed because I forgot to incorporate the -4. The bonus to attack that small creatures get makes this a net -3, which feels like it might be a holdover from the old 3.5 rules. If I had been a medium creature I would have parried the zombie, but as such I only avoided a potential one-shot because I accidentally cheated. So much for delivering swift, artful carnage to lumbering brutes.

Yeah, that -4 is will really limit the usefulness of Riposte. Large and bigger creature are very common past 6th level. There is no need for such penalty. The ability already costs 2 points of panache and/or your swift action.

I'm also curious about what the comparison between parrying the attacks of larger creatures and defending against their combat maneuvers would be. I was trying to run some numbers in my head, but it got a little muddled; the theoretical mathematical crunch isn't my strong suit, though. I'm curious whether it's easier for a gnome to parry a medium/large creature's attack or to avoid getting grappled by one.

[Athaleon]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Meh, crane style takes feats. From that perspective, its okay with me to have a single feature like Parry/Riposte be a little bit worse off.

I mean, you need to spend 3 feats to get Crane Style/Wing/Riposte
and you need to spend a feat on improved unarmed strike
and you need to spend a feat on dodge
and you can't do it until 8th level
and it still costs an attack of opportunity
and it only works when fighting defensively
and it takes a swift action to enter the style

So... you know... Crane has its own issues. Parry/riposte are basically free. And you can use both, so its not like Crane Style is overlapping Parry to make it obsolete. You could, ostensibly, parry 1 attack with crane wing, riposte with crane riposte, parry another attack with parry and riposte again with riposte.

A monk dip of one or two levels alleviates the feat requirements. At -1 Attack and +4 Dodge AC, you might as well be fighting defensively all the time. It only uses an attack of opportunity to riposte, not to parry. It doesn't activate on attacks that would have missed you anyway. And there's no opposed roll or penalty against larger enemies, it just works.

[JoelF847]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

Please think through how this interacts with Mythic rules. Classes that have too many abilities that use swift/immediate actions are unsatisfying to play with Mythic, since too many Mythic abilities require swift/immediate actions.

[Swashbucklersdc]

JoelF847 wrote:

Please think through how this interacts with Mythic rules. Classes that have too many abilities that use swift/immediate actions are unsatisfying to play with Mythic, since too many Mythic abilities require swift/immediate actions.

Hmmm, using the AoO mechanism and the Signature Deed Feat, combined with Mythic Combat Reflexes, let's you attempt to Parry every blow that comes your way...Now that is Swashbuckling!

[Lord_Malkov]

mechaPoet wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

mechaPoet wrote:

Maxximilius wrote:

Also, question to playtesters :

Has anyone played a small-sized class and given feedback about the whole -4 cumulative penalty to Parry ? I haven't had the opportunity to test myself and this penalty seems at least from reading it awfully crippling despite the concept advertising for piercing agility over towering brutes.

It's difficult but not impossible. My gnome parried a large-sized creature's attack, but only because he had a high roll and the creature rolled something like a natural 3. So it would have missed anyway, but it did give me the chance to riposte. Later in the adventure, I parried a bugbear zombie's natural 18 with a natural 20, although I think I SHOULD have failed because I forgot to incorporate the -4. The bonus to attack that small creatures get makes this a net -3, which feels like it might be a holdover from the old 3.5 rules. If I had been a medium creature I would have parried the zombie, but as such I only avoided a potential one-shot because I accidentally cheated. So much for delivering swift, artful carnage to lumbering brutes.

Yeah, that -4 is will really limit the usefulness of Riposte. Large and bigger creature are very common past 6th level. There is no need for such penalty. The ability already costs 2 points of panache and/or your swift action.

I'm also curious about what the comparison between parrying the attacks of larger creatures and defending against their combat maneuvers would be. I was trying to run some numbers in my head, but it got a little muddled; the theoretical mathematical crunch isn't my strong suit, though. I'm curious whether it's easier for a gnome to parry a medium/large creature's attack or to avoid getting grappled by one.

Well that all sort of depends.

If we take the average D20 roll and call that a 10 then for parry we have 10 + BAB + dex + weapon enhancement + weapon focus feats + BAB + 1 size... minus any penalties for power attack or fighting defensively

CMD is 10 + BAB + Strength + Dexterity -1 for size + any deflection and dodge bonuses

Subtracting the two equations, the difference is

Parry: Weapon Enhancement + Focus Feats + 1 size - power attack/defensive

CMD: Strength + deflection + dodge -1 for size.

So it all depends on those variables. The biggest hit to parry here is power attacking. If you are fighting defensively, this is a double swing in favor of using CMD. Then again, the d20 might work in your favor. If your opponent is bigger than you, then parry is probably a waste of time.

Assuming that you aren't power attacking or anything, at level 12 lets say you have focus and greater focus and a +3 weapon. So parrying will be at +1 +1 +3 +1(size) -4 = +2

That number needs to be better than your strength + deflection + dodge bonuses -1. Keeping in mind that nimble is a dodge bonus, this is probably not going to be the case. They are equal options in this case if you have a 10 strength and no dodge bonuses outside of nimble and no deflection bonuses.

You should have a ring of protection +1 at this level, and are likely to have a 12-14 strength.

However, this isn't a binary choice. Even if your chance to Parry is 40% and their chance to hit you is 50%, its not like you are auto-hit if you fail to parry. What really happens here is a statistical reduction, so if you parry, your chance to be hit goes from 50% to 30%.

The real problem is that you are spending panache before the roll is made, so in this same example, there is a 50% chance that you just wasted that point of panache on an attack that would have missed anyway.

Also, I would like to point out that a grapple attempt is an attack, so a swashbuckler should be able to parry it.

[Nunspa]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

No! No! No!

Stephen this is far worse.. riposte should be rap'd into Perry.. something like if you defeat your opponent's attack roll by 5 or more it triggers your riposte.

Another thing you can do is give the swashbuckler a modified version of the magus Kensai ability.

"At 11th level, kensai can make a number of attacks of opportunity in a round equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This effect stacks with the Combat Reflexes feat."

heck call it the same thing "Superior Reflexes (Ex)"

you have no idea how badly I want to pull off that seen from Princes Bride where indgo kills the 4 guards that charged at him!!!

[Lord_Malkov]

Nunspa wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Well, I think that the Parry/Riposte combo needs to change.

Ayep. I entirely agree. My quick fix is to make riposte and immediate action instead of taking an attack of opportunity. I'm still thinking about the panache cost and looking through playtests.

No! No! No!

Stephen this is far worse.. riposte should be rap'd into Perry.. something like if you defeat your opponent's attack roll by 5 or more it triggers your riposte.

Another thing you can do is give the swashbuckler a modified version of the magus Kensai ability.

"At 11th level, kensai can make a number of attacks of opportunity in a round equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This effect stacks with the Combat Reflexes feat."

heck call it the same thing "Superior Reflexes (Ex)"

you have no idea how badly I want to pull off that seen from Princes Bride where indgo kills the 4 guards that charged at him!!!

I think that the best reason to avoid an immediate action is that it will give yet another reason to go Strength instead of Dex.

[Prince of Knives]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

That's part of the game when the abilities are both worth using, yes. There's no mechanical need to create this action conflict. For casters maybe; an immediate-action spell is a pretty big deal so having it eat your Quickened spell later makes a lot of sense. Wall of Blades was a pretty big deal so having it eat your Boost later made a lot of sense. Parry/Riposte is not a big deal and doesn't need to be eating up your resources.

[Nunspa]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

I think that the best reason to avoid an immediate action is that it will give yet another reason to go Strength instead of Dex.

Correct!

at that point I'm making a strength swashbuckler, like whats the point!

[Kevin Mack]

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

Have to say so far in the playtest game I'm running the parry ability using an AoO has worked great so far so may be best to keep it that way (Or perhaps just make it a number of time per round equal to your Dex modifier so like an AoO but not needing the actual combat reflexes feat to do it.)

[Sevus]

Kevin Mack wrote:

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

Athaleon wrote:

Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.

Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.

Have to say so far in the playtest game I'm running the parry ability using an AoO has worked great so far so may be best to keep it that way (Or perhaps just make it a number of time per round equal to your Dex modifier so like an AoO but not needing the actual combat reflexes feat to do it.)

Going to add my vote to the pile here, I would much, much rather see Riposte unchanged than see it be changed to require an immediate action.

[Chris Parker]

Riposte was the only bit of the Parry/Riposte combo that actually worked fine.

[Westley Roberts]

I have been trying to put together a high level Swashbuckler for a playtest, and Pommel Strike as written prompts a lot of questions:

FAQ: Does Weapon Finesse work with Pommel Strike?
FAQ: Does Dervish Dance work with Pommel Strike?
FAQ: Does Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse work with Pommel Strike?
FAQ: Does an attack with Pommel Strike count as an attack with 'a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon'?
FAQ: If I have feats that modify my attack and damage with the weapon I am using for Pommel Strike, such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, can I add these feats to my Pommel Strike attack and damage?
FAQ: Does Pommel Strike provoke an attack of opportunity?
FAQ: Can I use my tripping feats, such as Improved Trip with Pommel Strike?

I currently assume that the answer to all these questions is no.

[Expax]

If we are able to, a nice setup is to use parry/riposte to provoke an attack of opportunity from the npc. Use the attack to do a trip, then get move to position to strike it regularly. This could be a nasty setup.

[SmiloDan]

Maybe replace Bravery with +1 AoO at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.

Or better yet, a choice: AoOs, Save vs. Fear, Init, Save vs. Charm, +5 ft of speed, +1 CMB, etc. etc.

[Akerlof]

I ran a 7th level swashbuckler through The Devil We Know part II while I was prepping it over the weekend, with Amiri, Kyra and Ezren.

The Build: Grigory Pechorin, Human Swashbuckler 7:

Str: 13
Dex: 20 (18 +2 belt)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 15 (14 +1 level 4)
HP: 60

init: 7
Panache: 4
AC: 25/18/18 (20 Dex, +2 Chain Shirt, Amulet Natural Armor +1, Ring of Prot +1)
Fort: 4
Ref: 10
Will: 5

Feats:
Swash 1: Weapon Focus: Rapier
Human: Power Attack
Swash 3: Combat Reflexes
Swash 4: Weapon Specialization
Swash 5: Iron Will
Swash 7: Extra Panache/Grit/Whatever

Class Features:
Deeds:
-Derring-do (No Action)
-Opportune Parry (AoO)
-Riposte (AoO)
-Recovery (No Action)
-Menacing Swordplay (Swift Action)
-Precise Strike (No Action, Swift Action to boost)
-Swashbuckler initiative
-Pommel Strike (Swift Action)
-Swift Feint (Standard Action)
-Targeted Strike (Full Round Action)
Bravery +2
Swashbuckler's Finesse
Nimble +2
Swashbuckler Weapon training +1

Equipment: I matched the equipment Amiri has at level 7 to avoid deck stacking
+2 Rapier
+2 Chain Shirt
Belt of Dex +2
Ring of Prot +1
Amulet of NA +1
Various potions and minor stuff but apparently no alchemist's fire, just a single leftover acid flask.

Attacks: +2 Rapier +16/+11 (1d6+6+7 15-20/x2) DPR Vs AC23 (median AC for CR9): 15, 23 w/ Precise Strike
+2 Rapier Power Attack +14/+9 (1d6+10+7 15-20/x2) DPR Vs AC23: 17.67, 24.33 with Precise Strike

Alternatively:
+1 Agile Rapier +15/+10 (1d6+9+7 15-20/x2) DPR: 18, 25.7 with PS
+1 Agile Rapier with PA: +13/+8 (1d6+13+7 15-20/x2) DPR: 19.5, 25.4 with PA Power Attack doesn't improve your DPR at all when you're getting Precise Strike!

Dervish Dance with same feats and stats (Minus Extra Panache and Power Attack):
+2 Rapier +16/+11 (1d6+10+7 15-20/x2) DPR: 21.2, 29.25 with Precise Strike
(+2 Rapier With Power Attack for completeness sake: +14/+9 (1d6+14+7 15-20/x2) DPR: 23, 29.6 PA is no gain when you have Precise Strike active.)

Theorycrafting:

Comparing damage to Amiri Vs the median CR = APL+2 monster
Grigory: Without PA: 15, 23 w/ Precise Strike, With PA: 17.67, 24.33 with Precise Strike
Amiri (While Raging): Without Power Attack: 24.8 With Power Attack: 25.9

So, Grigory is theoretically within a couple DPR of Amiri against a difficult monster at level 7. Amiri is certainly no AM BARBARIAN, but she's the strongest core iconic, so she makes a pretty good baseline for what Paizo considers a standard power level. (I.e. the CR system probably isn't designed for a character stronger than she is.) Going Dex to Damage pushes Grigory's damage to 113% of Amiri's max. Also note that this doesn't include spending Panache to double Precise Strike damage.

Initial Thoughts
Precise Strike does an excellent job of keeping the Swashbuckler's damage up with that of a Two Hander without relying on a stat to damage. By not giving Dex to damage mainline, it leaves room for optimizers to use non core option to make significant improvements, but it also prevents a core, intuitively built Swashbuckler from significantly outperforming an intuitively built core damage build. I.e. It avoids the "Magus is overpowered because it can one shot the BBEG when my sword and shield fighter is still doing 1d8+4!" problem.
However, waiting three levels for level to damage, and not getting a Weapon Finesse replacement at first level makes you play a completely different character in the first couple levels than you will play in the last 15 or 16 levels.

Playtest Results
Grigory: Over 19 rounds of combat, Grigory hit 17 of 24 attacks (71%) for 408 damage, an average of 24 per hit and 21.5 DPR. If you take out the two attempts to disarm a mook to get his rapier back (funny story, that) and the rounds of combat he didn't participate in, he's 17 for 22 (77% accuracy) and 27.2 DPR over 15 rounds. He spent 8 Panache (7 to double his Precise Strike damage, 1 to parry) and had 9 opportunities to gain Panache (5 crits, 4 KOs) though he couldn't take advantage of all of them: Most times a crit meant a KO, which restores 2 panache but he's only spent 1.
Amiri: Her numbers are effectively identical: 17 hits from 23 attacks (74%) for 403 damage, 24.7 per hit, 21.2 DPR (23.7 for the rounds she was not confused.)

Here is a link to the Google spreadsheet with round by round details.

Observations
-With a 15-20 crit range weapon and 4 panache (thanks to a feat), Grigory can afford to double his precision damage basically once every fight and can burn more on important fights. This is a serious damage boost.

-Damage is fine at this level.
--This character is effectively identical to Amiri from a damage perspective while using almost purely core resources.
--I think it's unreasonable to ask for a character to outdamage the highest damage iconic without using an optimized build.
--I think it's perfectly reasonable to leave the iconics in the dust if you optimize, and Dex to damage will do that.
--Dex to damage alone is a nice boost at early levels but not enough for you to keep up at mid levels. Dex to damage plus Precise Strike is significantly more powerful than the iconics and truely power creep.
--Power Attack is a good filler at low levels, and against low AC opponents or opponents who are immune to precision damage. But the 1:2 hit:damage trade is a net loss by the mid levels against tough opponents.
--The first few levels suck, though. Two handers start high and grow slowly. Swashbucklers start inept (if you're building for the long haul, not just for the first couple levels) and grow pretty impressively.
---Something needs to be done to make the first few levels less painful, because they're not very fun. Either you build for the swashbuckler you want to be and do roughly the same damage as the standard Bestiary goblin warrior, or you take redundant feats or build a level 1 only character that you rebuild at level 2.
---Swashbucklers don't need to be able to match the 2d6+12 Power Attacking Barbarians at first level, but 1d6+Something seems pretty necessary. The full BAB "All I do is poke things with a pointy stick" slot needs to be filled by a character who can reliably one- or two-round sub CR1 monsters. That's just how the CR math works out when you look at the iconics.

-I'm unsure whether we're too focused on damage or not: There's a lot of cool and useful stuff they can do. On the other hand, that stuff is really situational and most of the time in my playtest, just hitting the bad guy was usuallt the most productive option. (Admittedly, most of the encounters in this scenario are really weak challenge-wise.)
--This is a class that takes practice, patience, and tactical thinking to get full use of its abilities. Most of the time, spending a Panache point to parry is not worth it, but sometimes it really is the best option. You have a lot of Deeds, it takes a while to remember to use more than a couple.

-I wish Derring-do and Parry were reactive like mythic surges and Mounted Combat, respectively. As is, you have a very limited Panache pool and you are truly gambling if you use these Deeds, the returns are just too low. Every time I used them, the result wouldn't really have mattered: Derring-do when my acrobatics roll was a 2, or parrying an attack that missed anyway. When I really wanted and needed them, especially Derring-do, it was too late because I'd already made the roll.
--I would be more willing to Parry if it didn't cost so much. As it is, it's literally flipping a coin to see if I parry an equally skilled opponent, with the expected value further reduced because I don't even know if he would hit me in the first place, at the cost of a Panache point. With 4 Panache points, I have 1 point to use freely, 1 for buffing Precise Strike when I really need it, 1 as a buffer in case I have a dry spell, and 1 that's absolutely required at all times to keep Precise Strike functioning and my damage acceptable. Having 1-2 points to spend at any one time is constraining, and there's a lot more cool stuff that I can do with it instead of parry.

-Saves were mostly made or failed on the dice. (With +10 Ref, Grigory was the only one in the party to fail a DC 14 Reflex against a Fireball.) So I can't really say much, but I did fail two DC 13 Fort saves in a row, which will happen. The 40% chance to fail the kind of save normally thrown at level 1 characters is a problem, though. I also invested a feat just to shore up my Will save, but that put me at around 50/50 against most of the will saves thrown my way, which is scary.

-I need to play this more, for more experience, with a mind towards all the available deeds, and through tougher combats to really get a feel for it.

-I think the works, but I think some changes could make it more fun to play without making it more powerful than Pathfinder's baseline.
--Weapon Finesse and possibly Precise Strike at first level.
--Derring-do "After the dice roll but before the results are shown."
--Maybe change the Parry deed to cost 1 AoO and 1 Panache, but restore 1 Panache if you successfully parry.
-I also want to try it out in a more difficult scenario, and in some scenarios with enemies that I might get more mileage out of other deeds than just Precise Strike.