| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the Druid list is a better baseline, but it does need Cleric spells like Protection from Evil, Spiritual Weapon/Ally, Remove Curse, etc.
That said, I agree that I wanted this to be spontaneous (or at least Arcanist style) from the beginning. I had high hopes for the Shaman going into the playtest being like a spontaneous druid with hexes instead of wild-shape, but clearly they went with "prepared oracle" instead, so I don't know if the Druid list even makes sense anymore.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why not give them both lists? Is it really that overpowered to say "Shamans cast spells from both the Druid and Cleric spell lists, if a spell is on both lists at different levels, the Shaman casts it as a higher level spell. For example, Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level cleric spell and a 5th level druid spell, it would be a 5th level shaman spell."
It saves paizo the hassle of listing another spell list, and at the same time it makes shaman's feel like they have their own spell list.
Or you could say Cleric/Witch if that feels better.
Yes.
Both lists would be cool, but a bit über.
What about Druid spells and one spell per spell level from the Cleric list?
@mplindustries: I to had hope for a spontaneous druid with hexes instead of wild-shape. I also had hoped for no pet, but instead a more deep spirit theam.
Well, that kinda screws with the Nature Hex I was going to use as a base Nature Shaman. The Friend to Animals Hex now has to be redesigned, as it was built around the fact you'd have the cleric list. So no more access to both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, and the remaining part of the Hex will only buff all (meaning opposing as well as allied) animals.
Sure, the Druid list gives more firepower compared to the Cleric list. Not as many buffs, but a plethora of terrain manipulation and blasts.
Of slightly more concern is that the Shaman's Familiar is written like the Witch's Familiar, yet the Shaman has not a single hex that requires a melee touch attack. Might we, at the moment, rule that it was intended to deliver the touch attack that certain spirits gave as their first granted power? It seems to make more sense, especially since it's only after we got the druid list change that more viable touch attacks became available to us.
|
|
Perhaps it is, Druid has 17 level 1 spells that do not appear on the Cleric's list in the Core Rulebook alone, Witch has 14.
While I feel that the Druid list does fit the Shaman better then the Cleric list, I feel that a unique Shaman list would fit the Shaman even better, and that Shaman is in more need of it's own spell list then the Bloodrager is. If they are contemplating giving the Bloodrager it's own spell list, why shouldn't the Shaman get a unique spell list too.
I know that a spell list can take up a lot of real estate in a book, but the Shaman really deserves it's own list, since it's not filling a new role for divine spell casters without it.
We have a prepared Cleric list, we have a prepared druid list, and we have a spontaneous cleric list. If the shaman uses the druid list, it should be spontaneous IMO, otherwise it will be too similar to previous classes. A unique spell list will help move the class away from the current divine spell casters and into it's own niche. If that means that the book costs $10 more because it had a higher cost to make due to page count, I honestly have no problem forking up another $10 for a better product.
I don't want the shaman to feel like another cleric or druid, I want the shaman to feel like a shaman.
If they absolutely could not make the book any larger, the Shaman's spell list, or spell lists for classes that don't even appear in this book could be listed somewhere other then the book, such as on an accompanying CD or the PRD. Or maybe the summary of spells could be done differently, listing all spells in a single list with a class abbreviation to indicate that the spell is on that classes list.
The Advanced Player's Guide had just over 10 pages dedicated to class spell lists, and many of those spells on those 10 pages appear on multiple classes' lists. If those 10 pages could be compressed into 1 page or an accompanying CD or pdf or something, it would IMO make the book better.
If we compare how much real estate was taken up by the witch's spell list in the APG, the Witch took up more or less a full page in it's class description to list it's spells, and then another half a page in the spells chapter simply for listing the new spells, out of the 10 pages in that chapter that simply list new spells and what they do.
Honestly, the spell lists in the spells chapter would take up a lot less room if they were done the same was as the list in the class chapter, or even if they weren't there at all, I mean the list already exists in the class' description.
Well, that kinda screws with the Nature Hex I was going to use as a base Nature Shaman. The Friend to Animals Hex now has to be redesigned, as it was built around the fact you'd have the cleric list. So no more access to both Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, and the remaining part of the Hex will only buff all (meaning opposing as well as allied) animals.
Sure, the Druid list gives more firepower compared to the Cleric list. Not as many buffs, but a plethora of terrain manipulation and blasts.
That is a problem. I hope they deal with it.
I would mind they droped the whole Oracle thing and just gave it druid spells + one cleric domain (spells only) + hexes + fluff.
Both lists would be cool, but a bit über.
What about Druid spells and one spell per spell level from the Cleric list?@mplindustries: I to had hope for a spontaneous druid with hexes instead of wild-shape. I also had hoped for no pet, but instead a more deep spirit theam.
have you considered my suggestion of adding either cleric or witch spells to their spell list at certain levels? i think it would solve the problems a lot of people have about it missing a number of very spacific spells
Should we be testing using the Druid spell list starting now, or continuing to use the class as written in the playtest?
have you considered my suggestion of adding either cleric or witch spells to their spell list at certain levels? i think it would solve the problems a lot of people have about it missing a number of very spacific spellsBoth lists would be cool, but a bit über.
What about Druid spells and one spell per spell level from the Cleric list?@mplindustries: I to had hope for a spontaneous druid with hexes instead of wild-shape. I also had hoped for no pet, but instead a more deep spirit theam.
Could be a good thing. We just have to wait and see how the solve the problem.
I completely understand why they want to limit the number of new spell lists. It makes sense.
However, I think shaman needs its own spell list because there are a lot of spells from both cleric and druid that fit the shaman's theme and possibly some from neither that do too.
Because of this, if a new spell list is not used, it will always feel as though the class is missing something.
The best examples of when it is a good idea to not change the spell list would be warpriest. It would be nice if they got some spells early but they can be balanced in other ways. At the end of the day, the warpriest spell list should pretty much be the cleric spell list that makes sense even if at different levels. With this in mind, it is better to not change up some spell lists and instead give other things to the class but allow it to sue the cleric spell list for backwards compatibility and forward compatibility
The issue in the shaman case is that depending on spell list used, the class might be missing spells completely that it would make sense for the class to have. Other abilities can make the class stronger and as a whole the class with some bonuses may be stronger without the different spell list.
But that is not the issue.
The class will be plenty viable, it will just lack some abilities that a shaman should have and consequentially will feel less like a shaman.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think using the Druid spell list as a core is a move in the right direction.....
As long as spells from other lists, especially a lot of the "curse" descriptor spells are included via spirits.
|
The Shaman now uses the druid list, according to the blog post.
Excellent news - much more fitting with the theme in my opinion.
Must be said I think this class is wonderfully written, if a bit rough round the edges.
The 'special effects' on the familiars (and shamans when they use their powers) are lovely and so nice to roleplay.
I'm play testing a Wind Shaman at level 4 on Sunday; trying hard not to pick life as my wandering spirit, but as others have posted there does feel to be a spirit imbalance - especially at PFS-relevant levels.
All in all I love it, but think the 4-10 levels need ironing a tad.
PS - any thoughts on why the wind shaman gets no acces to any fly?
...They didn't change the list, guys. They said they might. "We are investigating" is not the same as "we are definitely doing," nor is it "we did." Wait until official word before you start making your characters with the druid list (or don't, but recognize that you're not playtesting Shaman, but a currently homebrew variant thereof).
If we must go forward with the Druid list, then I'd suggest changing a few more hexes around to grant access to those Cleric spells that feel thematically appropriate for the Shaman. We were already going to test spell lists expanded through hexes anyhow, so this would work fine.
On the topic of Spirits, I suggest ripping out the Lore spirit and working up an Ancestor spirit in its place. From the name alone, the Lore spirit doesn't quite fit most images of a Shaman. I had to wrack my brain to come up with a single example of a culture/religious practice where such a spirit could exist, and the two possible examples I could come up with are the Greek Pantheon with Athena and Japanese Shinto sects. Not exactly groups that invoke the thought of a Shamanic character. A Shaman seeking the wisdom and power of his ancestors, on the other hand, is something that works perfectly for theme. Regardless of culture, such traditions do tend to also revere their predecessors.
In making an ancestral spirit for the Shaman, I'd suggest a few things. First, perhaps a Wis/Cha bonus to Knowledge checks. This is one way to express the ancestor's wisdom being granted to the Shaman. Second, we'll retool a bit from the Ancestor Oracle Mystery. Ancestral Weapon could simply give you proficiency with one weapon and -at later levels- grant bonus feats around that weapon. I'd consider Weapon Specialization and maybe Improved Disarm or Quick Draw. Third, I'd consider some limited use of commune as an option.
On the topic of Spirits, I suggest ripping out the Lore spirit and working up an Ancestor spirit in its place. From the name alone, the Lore spirit doesn't quite fit most images of a Shaman. I had to wrack my brain to come up with a single example of a culture/religious practice where such a spirit could exist, and the two possible examples I could come up with are the Greek Pantheon with Athena and Japanese Shinto sects. Not exactly groups that invoke the thought of a Shamanic character. A Shaman seeking the wisdom and power of his ancestors, on the other hand, is something that works perfectly for theme. Regardless of culture, such traditions do tend to also revere their predecessors.
Keeping the stories of your people and knowing the world around you is an important job for a spiritual leader I would think. I'd be fine with having a wisdom and having a lore myself. Options are usually a plus in life.
|
I have to say, I like the classes Direction, but the Aesthetics I can't get behind. Mostly this one thing.
-Why have a Familiar and then Spirits. I know mechanically you have 2 different ability but the whole thing just reads likes a forceful wash. My character has two things he has to babysit and manage that couldn't have been one thing or been the source of that one thing. It just sounds silly have two sources of magical focus, when one doesnt do as much.
The Familiar just seems hand-fisted into the class with something much better could have taken its place. Like the idea, "We want to combine Witch and Oracle. Witches have Familiars so this class has to have one." As if the class couldn't function without one. So far I can see that there is no reason for my character to take care of a small animal that is just going to be a somewhat burden, when I have some other source that is giving me my magical power.
I just think having a pet is just redundant, and the Spirit covers the needed source of magic.
What if having the cleric or druid spell list depended upon your primary spirit? Life spirit - cleric, Nature - druid, ect?
...They didn't change the list, guys. They said they might. "We are investigating" is not the same as "we are definitely doing," nor is it "we did." Wait until official word before you start making your characters with the druid list (or don't, but recognize that you're not playtesting Shaman, but a currently homebrew variant thereof).
Not neccicarialy, if the devs are considering both options i should think playtest data on both options would be valuable.
I have to say, I like the classes Direction, but the Aesthetics I can't get behind. Mostly this one thing.
-Why have a Familiar and then Spirits. I know mechanically you have 2 different ability but the whole thing just reads likes a forceful wash. My character has two things he has to babysit and manage that couldn't have been one thing or been the source of that one thing. It just sounds silly have two sources of magical focus, when one doesnt do as much.
The Familiar just seems hand-fisted into the class with something much better could have taken its place. Like the idea, "We want to combine Witch and Oracle. Witches have Familiars so this class has to have one." As if the class couldn't function without one. So far I can see that there is no reason for my character to take care of a small animal that is just going to be a somewhat burden, when I have some other source that is giving me my magical power.
I just think having a pet is just redundant, and the Spirit covers the needed source of magic.
Some of the cultures that influenced the modern perception of a Shaman (the Native Americans in particular) have traditions of animal totems. These were closer to a familiar that was representative of a core part of the practitioner's personality/aspirations. Sometimes these familiars were more a symbol of power within a tribe, others a rite of passage into adulthood. To wit, the familiar was a spiritual guide. The designers, either consciously or subconsciously, realized that the hybrid had a potential flavor that would be in keeping with those traditions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have to say, I like the classes Direction, but the Aesthetics I can't get behind. Mostly this one thing.
-Why have a Familiar and then Spirits. I know mechanically you have 2 different ability but the whole thing just reads likes a forceful wash. My character has two things he has to babysit and manage that couldn't have been one thing or been the source of that one thing. It just sounds silly have two sources of magical focus, when one doesnt do as much.
The Familiar just seems hand-fisted into the class with something much better could have taken its place. Like the idea, "We want to combine Witch and Oracle. Witches have Familiars so this class has to have one." As if the class couldn't function without one. So far I can see that there is no reason for my character to take care of a small animal that is just going to be a somewhat burden, when I have some other source that is giving me my magical power.
I just think having a pet is just redundant, and the Spirit covers the needed source of magic.
Agreed...I would rather see the familiar go....and stick with spirits.
Some of the cultures that influenced the modern perception of a Shaman (the Native Americans in particular) have traditions of animal totems. These were closer to a familiar that was representative of a core part of the practitioner's personality/aspirations. Sometimes these familiars were more a symbol of power within a tribe, others a rite of passage into adulthood. To wit, the familiar was a spiritual guide. The designers, either consciously or subconsciously, realized that the hybrid had a potential flavor that would be in keeping with those traditions.
Actually...they don't.
Your "totem" is your clan.
The whole "animal totem" is new age/neo-pagan marketing, and if you want to see a traditional first native person get REALLY upset....bring up totem animals ;)
My shaman will be lonely if you get rid of his familiar.
He'll also get lost. That thing was literally leading him in life! Guy has no sense of direction. Figuratively and literally.
What if having the cleric or druid spell list depended upon your primary spirit? Life spirit - cleric, Nature - druid, ect?
I hope they decide on this or somehow gel the spellbooks together. I was going to make a shaman with life/bones spirit with the mantra "The Prophet of Life and Death", but with druid spells the concept makes no stinkin' sense.
After a change this drastic in only 1 week it's safe to say I won't be testing these classes in PFS beyond level 1, so to avoid a fiasco like this at level 5 and left being s.o.l. with a character I didn't plan on building.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're not building a character...you're playtesting.
What if having the cleric or druid spell list depended upon your primary spirit? Life spirit - cleric, Nature - druid, ect?I hope they decide on this or somehow gel the spellbooks together. I was going to make a shaman with life/bones spirit with the mantra "The Prophet of Life and Death", but with druid spells the concept makes no stinkin' sense.
After a change this drastic in only 1 week it's safe to say I won't be testing these classes in PFS beyond level 1, so to avoid a fiasco like this at level 5 and left being s.o.l. with a character I didn't plan on building.
There are rules for rebuilds with the playtesting. They are a bit limited though. Could be a heck of a rollercoaster ride depending on how things go.
I'm sorry if this has been addressed before, but can a shaman take the Extra Hex feat? Maybe twice or three times?
edit: Another question (one of my players asked me that): How does a natural attack (such as a half-orc bite) interact with the shaman's Spirit abilities touch attacks, such as Stone's Touch of Acid? They don't interact in any way, or he may use the natural attack to deliver the ability (using normal AC)? If the second is correct, if he misses, does he "hold" the charge? What about using the ability on one round and attacking with the natural weapon on the other?
You're not building a character...you're playtesting.
Playtest/build eitherway you level up every three scenarios that you play and you can only play them once, so I'm not wasting them on a character subject to sudden change. I'm also not putting a burden on my local gms to check the weekly blog to see updates on 10 different classes at once.
I'm sorry if this has been addressed before, but can a shaman take the Extra Hex feat? Maybe twice or three times?
Yes as long as they're in your spirit list. Although I'm not sure how it works with your wandering spirit, let alone for other feats like extra channel if Life is your wandering spirit
Actually...they don't.
Your "totem" is your clan.
The whole "animal totem" is new age/neo-pagan marketing, and if you want to see a traditional first native person get REALLY upset....bring up totem animals ;)
Actually, "animal totems" have a real basis, it's just actually from Mesoamerican cultures. The most well known is the Aztec Nahualli, which is just about as close to a totem animal as you can get without using that phrase. Anthropologists call the whole tonalism. The simple version is that the day you're born ties your spirit to a specific animal--kind of like a zodiac that people actually take seriously.
|
I was super disappointed by the shaman. It's just a cleric that gets a familiar and swaps their domains for mysteries. That's it. Come on, give us something more. This class really needs it's own spell-list. Or tie in a bunch of extra spells associated with their spirits. Please give them something to make the class unique.
Switching to a druid list is interesting, and adds a lot of appeal for me. Previously this felt like a cleric who got jealous of the other casters' bells and whistles, but this is much farther removed from a druid in terms of what they get besides their spells so it's more of a unique niche.
It does mean getting most heal spells later though, which I'd imagine would have to mess with some of the heal-focused spirits somewhat. Life in particular.
|
|
I'm wondering if some of the shaman hexes (why'd they call them hexes when they are the same as the oracle's mysteries? That's just confusing) are supposed to be charisma based or if that's a mistake because they copied and pasted them from the oracle.
And off on a tangent, how about making them charisma based? (they're supposed to be a cross between a witch - int based, and an oracle - cha based, but they use wisdom. huh, go figure). Charisma really gets neglected in the pathfinder system. While some classes have secondary abilities based off of charisma, only the oracle and the sorcerer are truly charisma focused, and the sorc even has an archetype to let you switch to int or wis. Maybe there could be a cha based shaman archetype.
Some people really love familiars and some people really hate them. Maybe the familiar could be an optional choice. Like for a wizard choosing between a familiar or a bonded object. The shaman could choose to take a familiar or a fetish or something like that.
I have to say, I like the classes Direction, but the Aesthetics I can't get behind. Mostly this one thing.
-Why have a Familiar and then Spirits. I know mechanically you have 2 different ability but the whole thing just reads likes a forceful wash. My character has two things he has to babysit and manage that couldn't have been one thing or been the source of that one thing. It just sounds silly have two sources of magical focus, when one doesnt do as much.
The Familiar just seems hand-fisted into the class with something much better could have taken its place. Like the idea, "We want to combine Witch and Oracle. Witches have Familiars so this class has to have one." As if the class couldn't function without one. So far I can see that there is no reason for my character to take care of a small animal that is just going to be a somewhat burden, when I have some other source that is giving me my magical power.
I just think having a pet is just redundant, and the Spirit covers the needed source of magic.
I agree with you. I think the familiar was added to the class to make it more "witchy". I hope PF adds something else instead to make the class more shaman :-)
|
|
Some of the cultures that influenced the modern perception of a Shaman (the Native Americans in particular) have traditions of animal totems. These were closer to a familiar that was representative of a core part of the practitioner's personality/aspirations. Sometimes these familiars were more a symbol of power within a tribe, others a rite of passage into adulthood. To wit, the familiar was a spiritual guide. The designers, either consciously or subconsciously, realized that the hybrid had a potential flavor that would be in keeping with those traditions.I have to say, I like the classes Direction, but the Aesthetics I can't get behind. Mostly this one thing.
-Why have a Familiar and then Spirits. I know mechanically you have 2 different ability but the whole thing just reads likes a forceful wash. My character has two things he has to babysit and manage that couldn't have been one thing or been the source of that one thing. It just sounds silly have two sources of magical focus, when one doesnt do as much.
The Familiar just seems hand-fisted into the class with something much better could have taken its place. Like the idea, "We want to combine Witch and Oracle. Witches have Familiars so this class has to have one." As if the class couldn't function without one. So far I can see that there is no reason for my character to take care of a small animal that is just going to be a somewhat burden, when I have some other source that is giving me my magical power.
I just think having a pet is just redundant, and the Spirit covers the needed source of magic.
Thats fine to a level, but you could smash the two and call it like Spirit Animal, or Animal Totem. Its just having 2 things that dont have a kind of chemistry that I would like. The powers should have either a common origin or a simblance or synergy. Right now the familar seems just useless and odd to have.
|
Ever look at the medium class from 2E days? Think of playing up the spirit talker elements of the class. I'm fine with going Druid for spells, but that's going to casue issues with Shamans who are Death/non elemetnal. So you might fix that with spell selection riders based on the spirit's you bond too. That's all I'm thinking. I love the idea of invoking and tying yourself to more than one spirit. Having a mini-pantheon of guides and totems helping you out acting as your local guardian's...awesome.
Some of the cultures that influenced the modern perception of a Shaman (the Native Americans in particular) have traditions of animal totems. These were closer to a familiar that was representative of a core part of the practitioner's personality/aspirations. Sometimes these familiars were more a symbol of power within a tribe, others a rite of passage into adulthood. To wit, the familiar was a spiritual guide. The designers, either consciously or subconsciously, realized that the hybrid had a potential flavor that would be in keeping with those traditions.Actually...they don't.
Your "totem" is your clan.
The whole "animal totem" is new age/neo-pagan marketing, and if you want to see a traditional first native person get REALLY upset....bring up totem animals ;)
Animal-themed totems, animal spirit guides, and shamanism are a part of many traditional Native American practices. People do upset when you paint with too broad a brush, implying all or even most Native Americans have identical practices.
Is it official that this is changing to the druid list? We have a big PFS event this Friday with almost all low level games, and I want to make sure we're using the right thing for this class, since I have a feeling that a LOT of people are going to be playtesting.
Can we get an official word one way or the other? The blog post makes it sound like a definite, but without a word here I'm not sure what's official. We want to give you good playtest data! :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I prefer the cleric list, if I had to choose. Though, if they did use the druid list, they could change it to oracle/druid and not have to worry about the 'hex' naming problem.
I'd also like to see a version of the Lore Oracle's Sidestep Secret.
Ouch. Guess I'm dropping the Shaman from my playtest group then. Cleric spells are kinda a must to me. Otherwise I have to have a Cleric in the party. Especially if you play with a DM whose not afraid to throw negative levels and ability drain your way.
I was running my Shaman as part bandaid part utility caster like a Cleric. It was nice to go from one day using Heaven's Leap a ton to save the party to fireballing folks the next day.
Also I hate it when people say the Spirits are just like Domains because they aren't. Spirit Magic gives you a spontaneous slot of each level to toss your Spirit spells. Like if I have Fire and Life I could toss a fireball or Neutralize Poison. I would kill for that as a Cleric.
|
Is it official that this is changing to the druid list? We have a big PFS event this Friday with almost all low level games, and I want to make sure we're using the right thing for this class, since I have a feeling that a LOT of people are going to be playtesting.
Can we get an official word one way or the other? The blog post makes it sound like a definite, but without a word here I'm not sure what's official. We want to give you good playtest data! :)
I would say its a fair bet that yes, Shaman is getting the Druid spell list as otherwise they would have announced that the Shaman is getting a custom spell list.
Is it official that this is changing to the druid list? We have a big PFS event this Friday with almost all low level games, and I want to make sure we're using the right thing for this class, since I have a feeling that a LOT of people are going to be playtesting.
Can we get an official word one way or the other? The blog post makes it sound like a definite, but without a word here I'm not sure what's official. We want to give you good playtest data! :)
Not until the first post of this thread gets updated, I'd think. They said they're investigating it, not that the change has been made. That language is the same that they used for Bloodrager's new spell list, which obviously hasn't happened yet.
Not until the first post of this thread gets updated, I'd think. They said they're investigating it, not that the change has been made. That language is the same that they used for Bloodrager's new spell list, which obviously hasn't happened yet.Is it official that this is changing to the druid list? We have a big PFS event this Friday with almost all low level games, and I want to make sure we're using the right thing for this class, since I have a feeling that a LOT of people are going to be playtesting.
Can we get an official word one way or the other? The blog post makes it sound like a definite, but without a word here I'm not sure what's official. We want to give you good playtest data! :)
It would be unfortunate to miss out on playtest data for the class as they wish to pursue it simply because the first post was not updated. This is why I'm asking whether it was the intention or not. :p
Some spirit should definitely give some telepathic power, like the Oracle of Nature's Trascendental Bond.
What about a feat or archetype giving the ability to choose real oracle revelations or witch hexes?
Only if you can sing the song."Hex" specifically is a Germanic word for witches and witchery. It is an appropriate term for a witch, sorcerer, or hoodoo, but not a culturally sanctioned spirit guide like a shaman, medicine man, or vodoun.Would you prefer bad medicine instead of hex?
Bad Juju?