Regarding the Martial Maneuvers (Ex) class ability at 1st level. I foresee a whole lot of discussion and FAQ requests on what feats are or are not considered part of the subset of combat feats allowed. I would like to suggest that the wording be changed to combat feats (all) rather than an undefined subset.it looks from the text like part of the reason they didn't do that is because they wanted to include feats that aren't technically combat feats (like toughness- which IMHO seems like a terrible feat to get temporarily in the first place). but yes, it definitely needs to be better defined!Agreed with Toughness should not be there either.
I see Improving Defense as Dodge, Mobility, etc. feats since that helps Armor Class. Toughness does not "help defense" in that it DOES NOT make you more difficult to hit, it just makes you "tougher".
I can see the argument:
Player: I am taking Iron Will as my defense minded feat.
GM: That does not help with your defense.
Player: Yes it does, it improves my will save, which defends against xxxx effect.
GM; Argh!So is Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, and the other "saves" improvement feats considered "improving defense"?
Too much leeway, imo, and not enough definitive.
But, I do live the class !!! In was thinking of trying Champion of Irori (cleric/paladin/monk/coi) for the next AP, starting in March or so, but this looks more like the concept that I had in mind.
-- david
edit: Yea, what Victor Zajic said. Although, having yet another "sub-list" of feats would be annoying, it probably is the better option.
I agree. There should be more guidelines such as "improves AC, improves saves, etc..."
edit:This also stops Paizo from having to constantly update the list every time a new book comes out. :)
^Yep.
My one problem with the class more than anything else is that it didn't address the problem with the monk in the first place.
Monks at all levels have an accuracy problem. This is compounded by three factors. 1. their standard action and AoOs are at 3/4 BAB, 2. Their flurry is at a -2 and 3 cost of magic enhancement bonus. Now a monk is basically a 2 wpn fighter using unarmed and the unarmed damage scales but it lacks the inherent accuracy additions that other melee classes have:
Fighter Weapon Training, bonus feat for weapon focus,
Barbarian Rage
Paladin Smite Evil
Ranger Favored EnemyNow some of these are highly conditional but in many cases they come into play more frequently than you would think.
Monks lack these options, Brawler only added to fix this in two ways:
Full BAB so their AoOs and Standard actions are more accurate
Bonus feats for Weapon FocusUnfortunately I can see Brawlers have the same issues as monks at higher levels because they still have to pay double for AoMF (which 1. costs a neck slot, 2. is twice as expensive, 3. in PFS is available much later and never always because of Fame.) Problems with DR (gaining the monk benefits even later)and the accuracy still being in the same place (AoMF, no feature to improve it)
I agree with this. They should get a bonus to attacks(if not damage also) when using weapons from the close weapons group.
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At 2nd level, a brawler becomes skilled at forcefully moving his opponent around the battlefield. The brawler gains a +1 bonus on bull rush, drag, and reposition combat maneuver checks. The brawler also gains a +1 bonus to CMD when attacked with the bull rush, drag, and reposition maneuvers. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels after 2nd (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level).
This ability replaces armor training 1.
Close Combatant (Ex)
At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level).
This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.
Close Weapon Group: bayonet [APG], brass knuckles [APG], cestus [UC], dan bong [UC], emei piercer [UC], fighting fan [UC], gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush [UC], light shield, madu [UC], mere club [UC], punching dagger, sap, scizore [UC], spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi [UC], tonfa [UC], unarmed strike, wooden stake [APG], and wushu dart [UC].
Menacing Stance (Ex)
At 7th level, a brawler constantly harries and distracts his enemies. While adjacent to the brawler, enemies take a –1 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on concentration checks. These penalties increase by 1 for every four levels after 7th level (to a maximum of –4 on attack rolls and –7 on concentration checks at 19th level). Creatures do not take these penalties if the brawler is dazed, helpless, staggered, stunned, or unconscious.
This ability replaces armor training 2, 3, and 4 and armor mastery.
The Brawler (Fighter Archetype) got a better weapon training(2 more damage), an up to +5 bonus to 3 combat maneuvers(not including the weapon training bonus) and menacing stance which reduced enemy attack by 4 while still maintaining his armor proficiencies.
Like I said the vanilla fighter is the wrong thing to base the Brawler class off of. And yes Fuse styles is a NEED.
If you look in the ultimate combat book it says "Combat" right next the the feat names in the descriptions section.The d20pfsrd.com is not an offical source. Do you have similar wording from the prd? I checked the prd and I could not find it.They are on the combat feat feat list.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats
Also
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-featsEach is listed with the type being both Combat and Style.
Thanks. :)
Female human brawler 10
CN medium humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +13
-=DEFENSE=-
AC 34, touch 22, flat 25
HP 94
Fort 11; Ref 16; Will 5
-=OFFENSE=-
Speed 30ft
Melee unarmed attack +20/+15 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
Melee brawler's flurry +18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10+9 20/x2) Type: Bludgeon; Size: Medium; Wgt: - lbs
-=OTHER=-
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
BAB +10; CMB +17(finessable); CMD 27
Feats fast learner, weapon finesse, combat expertise, improvisation, weapon focus (unarmed), combat reflexes, snake style, snake riposte, snake fang
Traits criminal (disable device), dangerously curious (use magic device)
Favored class brawler
Favored bonus 10 hit points, 10 skill points
Languages common, minkai, draconic, celestial, sylvan
Racial silver tongued (replaces skilled)
Brawler abilities martial maneuvers 5/day; brawler's flurry (two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting); maneuver training (+2 disarm / +1 dirty trick); AC bonus +2; brawler strike (magic, cold iron, silver)
Skills
Trained acrobatics 20(10); climb 13(10); disable device 21(10); perception 13(10); sense motive 13(10); stealth 20(10)[headband]; swim 13(10); use magic device 17(10)
Untrained appraise 5; bluff 7; craft (all) 5; diplomacy 7; disguise 5; escape artist 9; fly 9; handle animal 5; heal 2; intimidate 5; knowledge (all) 5; linguistics 5; perform (all) 5; profession (all) 2; ride 9; sleight of hand 9; spellcraft 5; survival 2
Wealth 1000ish gp
* +2 brawling mithril chainshirt (10100)
* +2 cloak of resistance (4000)
* +4 belt of dexterity (16000)
* +2 headband of intelligence (4000)
* +2 ring of protection (8000)
* agile amulet of mighty fists (4000)
* dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000)
* circlet of persuasion (4500)
* wand of barkskin (4500)
* wand of shield (7500)
* masterwork thieves tools (100)
*
Martial Maneuvers
Mikiko has a relatively small set of feats she can acquire, but she's set up to easily supplement her martial training with very little effort: by that I mean she generally only needs to use 1 feat to acquire what she wants in a situation; as a rule, all of those descend of Combat Expertise
- Improved Trip
- Improved Disarm
- Improved Steal
- Improved Dirty Trick
- Dodge and partial Crane style tree
- Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus
- Step Up, Following Step, Step-up and Strike
- Catch Off Guard, Throw Anything, Improvised Weapon Mastery
- Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, [...]
Expected DPR
Mikiko's DPR is respectable, what is noteworthy is that she is possibly more dangerous when being attacked than when attacking herself: when fully powered up (with wand of barkskin and shield) she has very formidable AC and her Snake Fang will trigger on most non-touch attacks that enemies may throw at her. In non-boss fight encounters her base AC of 28 is still enough to allow Snake Fang to reliably and safely eliminate great numbers of lesser enemies
Using a brawler's flurry vs an AC 24 enemy: = 38
Using a brawler's flurry and Weapon Spec/Greater Focus vs an AC 24 enemy: = 47
Snake Fang: = 13
Snake Fang and Weapon Spec/Greater Focus: = 15.6
Varying AC
Mikoko spends a lot of effort to have good AC, including investing traits and money to have temporary magical enhancements to her AC. As a result she has okay AC for a front-liner as a baseline, and can raise that to very high in special circumstances. If she feels she can reliably hit, she can additionally (or instead of the magic) supplement her AC with Combat Expertise at a -3 to hit to gain a +3 to AC.
Gameplay Limitation
Unlike my prior build (Berkley "The Hammer" Naveel), Mikiko uses her Martial Maneuvers sparsely and where needed. She is built to require only 1 feat (usually an Improved Maneuver feat) that is typically derived from Combat Expertise. Her combat presence is hard-wired into her with the Snake Style tree, thus allowing her to be picky and chosy on when she uses Martial Maneuvers. That is a bit of a pity, as the mechanic is very fun and full of deep potential.
Berkley used Martial Maneuvers in key encounters to significantly boost her damage output, or completely change the style of combatant she was presenting. In contrast, Mikiko uses Martial Maneuvers as a toolbox to retrieve the single thing she needs for a given situation. Correspondingly Berkley can only really show-off her full Martial Maneuvers in one big encounter each day; whereas Mikiko always can make a small adaptation for each encounter (up to 5 a day).
There is a secondary consideration: as Mikiko likes to rely on temporary magical enhancements in combat, the short-lived shield buff (1 minute) and the equally short-lived Martial Maneuvers (1 minute) give her 9 rounds in which to finish the encouter before she needs to refresh. (This assumes she fights with the wand of shield in one hand, thus allowing her to cast shield as a standard action and gain her 1 feat of choice as a swift action all in one round.)
Closing Thoughts
I disagree with the need some posters express for "free" Combat Expertise. For one thing, the follow-up feats such as "Improved Disarm" also require 13 Int, thus making a free Combat Expertise meaningless, and on the other hand sparing 3 points in point buy for enough Intelligence is not that hard, and Combat Expertise complements the brawler really well, making it a valid and important consideration for a build. Why does it complement the brawler well? I find the brawler's AC is hard to balance well while still being a "brawler" (i.e. not taking shield proficiency and using shields). Combat Expertise allows the brawler to focus heavily on damage output, and then scale back on the damage to improve AC when it is deemed necessary. Additionally, ofcourse a great number of feats open up for the brawler's Martial Maneuvers. Getting it for free would certainly make things easier; but I don't think there is a need for that.
PS - I don't think fuse styles is needed.
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I disagree, but then I don't really like the idea of ANOTHER unarmed class being pigeon holed into Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd like to be able to make a guy that slugs it out without taking -2 to-hit and without feeling like I'm ignoring a solid chunk of the class (because it really doesn't have all that much going on to begin with).
Like I've said before, it has Bonus Feats, which makes it easy for people to go the TWFing route if they choose to do so. Throw the people who want a rocket punch instead of a Flurry of Fists a bone, will ya? Or at least make it an option, chosen at 2nd level.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
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I disagree, but then I don't really like the idea of ANOTHER unarmed class being pigeon holed into Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd like to be able to make a guy that slugs it out without taking -2 to-hit and without feeling like I'm ignoring a solid chunk of the class (because it really doesn't have all that much going on to begin with).
Like I've said before, it has Bonus Feats, which makes it easy for people to go the TWFing route if they choose to do so. Throw the people who want a rocket punch instead of a Flurry of Fists a bone, will ya? Or at least make it an option, chosen at 2nd level.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
The problem with a "rocket punch" idea is that you can still rocket punch after moving (since it would be a standard action) or as part of a charge, etc. With flurry, they're letting you get a bunch of damage from a bunch of punches if you can set it up to where you're taking a full-attack action. The "rocket punch" idea just doesn't really work with 3.5-style gameplay because of that.
Something along the lines of maybe being able to use Martial Maneuvers to get styles without meeting the prerequisites while lasting longer maybe. Not the same thing to steal from the MoMS. Styles are probably the best way to build an Unarmed character and this Brawler seems to already be preaching versatility.
Also yes the ability to throw some hardcore-beat-down punches would be a lovely and NEW gimmick. They already had a good start with Knockout and I think they should try to focus on capitalizing on that.
The problem with a "rocket punch" idea is that you can still rocket punch after moving (since it would be a standard action) or as part of a charge, etc. With flurry, they're letting you get a bunch of damage from a bunch of punches if you can set it up to where you're taking a full-attack action. The "rocket punch" idea just doesn't really work with 3.5-style gameplay because of that.I disagree, but then I don't really like the idea of ANOTHER unarmed class being pigeon holed into Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd like to be able to make a guy that slugs it out without taking -2 to-hit and without feeling like I'm ignoring a solid chunk of the class (because it really doesn't have all that much going on to begin with).
Like I've said before, it has Bonus Feats, which makes it easy for people to go the TWFing route if they choose to do so. Throw the people who want a rocket punch instead of a Flurry of Fists a bone, will ya? Or at least make it an option, chosen at 2nd level.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
So he'll just be on par with anyone that uses a two handed weapon.
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So he'll just be on par with anyone that uses a two handed weapon.The problem with a "rocket punch" idea is that you can still rocket punch after moving (since it would be a standard action) or as part of a charge, etc. With flurry, they're letting you get a bunch of damage from a bunch of punches if you can set it up to where you're taking a full-attack action. The "rocket punch" idea just doesn't really work with 3.5-style gameplay because of that.I disagree, but then I don't really like the idea of ANOTHER unarmed class being pigeon holed into Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd like to be able to make a guy that slugs it out without taking -2 to-hit and without feeling like I'm ignoring a solid chunk of the class (because it really doesn't have all that much going on to begin with).
Like I've said before, it has Bonus Feats, which makes it easy for people to go the TWFing route if they choose to do so. Throw the people who want a rocket punch instead of a Flurry of Fists a bone, will ya? Or at least make it an option, chosen at 2nd level.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
Except you can't two-weapon fight with a weapon in two hands, whereas if you had rocket punch you could two-weapon fight it. :-P
Except you can't two-weapon fight with a weapon in two hands, whereas if you had rocket punch you could two-weapon fight it. :-PSo he'll just be on par with anyone that uses a two handed weapon.The problem with a "rocket punch" idea is that you can still rocket punch after moving (since it would be a standard action) or as part of a charge, etc. With flurry, they're letting you get a bunch of damage from a bunch of punches if you can set it up to where you're taking a full-attack action. The "rocket punch" idea just doesn't really work with 3.5-style gameplay because of that.I disagree, but then I don't really like the idea of ANOTHER unarmed class being pigeon holed into Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd like to be able to make a guy that slugs it out without taking -2 to-hit and without feeling like I'm ignoring a solid chunk of the class (because it really doesn't have all that much going on to begin with).
Like I've said before, it has Bonus Feats, which makes it easy for people to go the TWFing route if they choose to do so. Throw the people who want a rocket punch instead of a Flurry of Fists a bone, will ya? Or at least make it an option, chosen at 2nd level.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
I was thinking it would specifically be limited to not doing that much like the Duelists precise strike actually. Sorry about the misdirection.
This class is pushing Brawler's flurry when it doesn't even get a static boost to damage which is promoted by having more attacks.
Doesn't have to be Fuse Styles exactly, but SOMETHING besides Flurry would be nice and Fuse Styles is my personal favorite ability in the entire game.
I agree with the concept of removing Flurry, or making it optional at least.
Here's an idea: the brawler can use activated combat feats as a move action as opposed to a standard action (e.g. Cleave and Vital Strike). I can really picture it. Vital Strikes as rocket punches, and multiple Cleaves as a kapoeira style spinning heel kick.
Playtest Feedback
last night i ran a short scenario for 3 level 8 characters (on 20 point buy)- a fighter, a monk, and a brawler. we intentionally chose those classes to get a side by side look at how the classes compared against the same enemies. the players made their own characters so i don't have full builds but here are the highlights:
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **Result
i ran them through about half a dozen encounters (over 3 in-game days) ranging from APL -2 to APL +3 and a couple of out of combat scenarios. not surprisingly the monk faired the best out of combat, followed by the brawler (who was only slightly better off than the fighter because despite the extra skill points his stat array left him ill suited for those scenarios).in combat- the monk was difficult to hit, even for the APL +1-2... he took advantage of combat reflexes and crane riposte by often only single attacking and repositioning (counting on AoOs to make up the damage output), against the APL -2 he stood and flurried and wasn't too far behind the fighter in dpr, closer to APL his moving system worked pretty well, against...
Was that the only use of Martial maneuvers? What else did he pick up if anything?
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My suggestion (and I think someone else said this already, just skimmed over the last 7 pages of discussion) for martial maneuvers would be to give combat expertise as a bonus feat, and to be treated as a size larger (scaling) for a certain combat maneuvers as opposed to just the +1 CMB/D. Then you could get more improved combat maneuver feats, and you could get rid of some of the size limitations on combat maneuvers.
First off, let me preface this by saying that I haven’t read most comment yet, so I might be repeating ideas that were already thrown around the forum. I apologize if that is the case. It simply means that I add my voice to those who already said them. Also, this is just my opinion, not facts. I’m merely saying what I would have liked. Now, let’s look at the class.
Flavor wise, I don’t think the class was necessary. We already have a brawler and unarmed fighter archetype for the fighter. That said, it can still be done differently enough mechanic-wise to be interesting. I see this class as more of a MMA fighter that a kung-fu artist.
For the mechanic, I would have done it differently, but with the same goal in mind. I would have gone gunslinger/monk, if only to get the grit mechanic. From the gunslinger, I would have kept the BAB, the grit and deeds and nimble. From the monk, I would have kept the saves, unarmed strike and the bonus feats. To that, I would have added something that allows the brawler to use gloves-like weapons (cestus, brass knuckles, rope gauntlet, etc.) to be used with the unarmed strike damage die. That way, if you want to beat magic DR, you can enchant yourself some cestus and go to town. I would have tried to avoid any supernatural abilities.
Now, to the fun part. I would have used the grit mechanic to give him maneuvers-like deeds. For example, you could have an “eye gouge” that blind or dazzle for a round. Jumping knee to the head that stagger, low punch that sickened, leg swipe that trip, etc. You can mimic trip, dirty trick, stunning fist and all while leaving the brawler free to take other feats, like TWF, chokehold, improve grapple, etc. You could then add deeds like “rush” to close a distance rapidly (move up to half your speed as a swift action maybe) and things like that, to make sure that the brawler stay up close and personal with monsters. Admittedly, some of those look a lot like the unarmed fighter archetype in result (see my comment about the flavor).
For me, it would have resulted in a more “realistic” fighter compared to the monk, and with different mechanics than the fighter archetypes.
Overall, the brawler as-is is kind of middle pack for me, but mainly because I don’t like the open feat slot and flurry of blows.
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I'm sure this has been stated before, but I just can't figure out why this class exists.
I understand the desire to have a non-mystical monk, someone that just punches crap without pretense.
However, we had that--it was a fighter archetype that handily out damaged the monk at its own game.
And well, it also outdoes the Brawler. So, it's a better monk, but a worse fighter. I don't think those are exactly stellar classes we should be striving to fit among.
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My review:
Brawler: A-: This fills a needed niche in the game, as too many unarmed strike fighters dip into monk to gain the necessary benefits they can't get anywhere else. While some people think it is superior to both the old Brawler fighter archetype and monk, there's still good reasons to play both of them. The old Brawler gets some nice anti-spellcasting options that stack with Spellbreaker and Disruptive, and monks get evasion, improved evasion, and nearly as many free feats - but the big advantage monks have is ki points. With Drunken Master giving you free temp ki points every encounter, you can essentially get an extra attack every round, which stacks with haste. And Qinggong monks are pretty uber as well.
Why an A-? They get slower progression on unarmed strike and ki strike at higher levels, but mostly it is because their signature ability, Martial Maneuvers, requires a move action to activate, which is too painful for most combats to waste. I'd much rather be able to full attack ki point stunning fist flurry my enemy to the face than spend a move action to gain Stunning Fist (which you can only use once per day per four levels, and whose DC will suck), and stunning fist punch them once.
This limitation goes away at 10th level, but they're still pretty limited on their uses per day (5). So if you call in all three feats as a full round action, you can't do that again in the rest of the adventuring day.
I agree with a bit of what you said, but they actually do get full number of uses on Stunning Fist.
The problem I have with the class in its current form (and I'm hoping for a bit of an overhaul, like what they're doing with the Arcanist), is that it offers little that a Brawler Fighter with a one or two level dip in Monk couldn't do. Kinda disappointing for a base class.
In any case, it would be nice to see full builds of these characters if you could scrounge them up.
i don't have character sheets but here's the best approximation of them i can do... they're like 80% memory and 20% theory craft (these are probably slightly more similar than in the playtest, just to make the numbers a little clearer)
Str 22 (16+2race+2@4/8+2item)
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Hp- 88(w/FCB) AC 25 (10 +12 armor[+3 fullplate] +1 dex +1 trait +1 deflection [ring of prot. +1])
Fort +10; Ref +4; Will +5 [cloak of resist +1]
traits: defender of society, wendifa apprentice
feats:
H- toughness
1- power attack
F1- furious focus
F2- *retrain @8: Imp Crit [greatsword]
3- wf [greatsword]
F4- wpn spec [greatsword]
5- arcane strike
F6- vital strike
7- iron will
F8- gr. wf [greatsword]
skills:
climb +10
survival +11
swim +10
other: +2 greatsword, +1 ranged weapon, 2k random stuff
Str 22 (16+2race+2@4/8+2item)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Hp- 72(w/FCB) AC 24 (10 +8 armor[+2 mithril breastplate] +2 dex +2 class +1 deflection [ring of prot. +1])
Fort +10; Ref +10; Will +5 [cloak of resist +2]
traits: armor expert, wendifa apprentice
feats:
H- EWP [temple sword]
1- power attack
B2- *retrain @8: Imp Crit [temple sword]
3- wf [temple sword]
B5- wpn spec [temple sword]
5- arcane strike
7- furious focus
F8- gr. wf [temple sword]
skills:
acrobatics +13
climb +17
perception +12
sense motive +12
stealth +10
other: +2 temple sword, +1 ranged weapon, 2k random stuff
here's how the math plays out in combat
they both have the same bonus to hit, normally
thanks to vital strike, the fighter has a clear edge in rounds that require movement:
4d6+24 (38 avg) vs. 1d8+24 (2handing temple sword- 28.5 avg)
the brawler did try vital striking with martial maneuvers, but it only raises avg dmg to 33 (still though, only 5 behind...)
full attack actions are a different story... reducing attack damage by 5% for every -1 to hit it looks like this:
fighter- (2d6+24)+ .65(2d6+24)= 51.15 average damage
brawler- .9(1d8+18)+ .75(1d8+18)+ .5(1d8+18)+ .5(1d8+18)= 59.625 average damage
that's not a big difference in averages but its also an abstraction- when the enemy has a higher than usual AC the fighter will tend to do a bit better than this prediction, and against enemies with lower AC the brawler will generally pull farther ahead.
Was that the only use of Martial maneuvers? What else did he pick up if anything?
he tried vital strike (you can see that in the crunch), he carried around a +1 longbow in case of flying enemy and at one point picked up proficiency and deadly aim (which worked pretty well). he wasted a solid 10-15 minutes at one point trying to figure out some kind of style nonsense. he tried to take 2 feats at once to gain racial heritage [orc] and grudge fighter which was clever but i had to nix that because racial heritage 'clearly' doesn't apply (well... as clearly as any feat, i guess).
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My pre-build impressions
1) I don't like Martial Maneuvers. I like the idea but a lot of feats qualify for it and even more may or may not qualify for it which is going to lead to a lot of questions. If it were keyed off of style feats only or something like that it would be perfect but "affects or improves her defenses, melee attacks or performing or resisting combat maneuvers" is super broad and a tad to vague for it to not cause tons of questions from my players and flame wars online.
2)Knockout seems a bit off. The way it scales down with each use seems inconsistent with how other abilities work. Also it feels like the ability assumes that you fight a big bad monster first and little minions later, when usually the opposite is true.
Everything else seems great and I cant wait to see how my players build it.
I like that latter point. What about making the DC start low and scale up with each successive attempted knockout blow? Also maybe the brawler could get it earlier but instead it causes the nauseated and then the staggered condition?
My suggestion (and I think someone else said this already, just skimmed over the last 7 pages of discussion) for martial maneuvers would be to give combat expertise as a bonus feat, and to be treated as a size larger (scaling) for a certain combat maneuvers as opposed to just the +1 CMB/D. Then you could get more improved combat maneuver feats, and you could get rid of some of the size limitations on combat maneuvers.
No, that does not work. The Improved [Maneuver] feats also require Int 13. Just having Combat Expertise isn't enough.
2)Knockout seems a bit off. The way it scales down with each use seems inconsistent with how other abilities work. Also it feels like the ability assumes that you fight a big bad monster first and little minions later, when usually the opposite is true.I like that latter point. What about making the DC start low and scale up with each successive attempted knockout blow? Also maybe the brawler could get it earlier but instead it causes the nauseated and then the staggered condition?
I honestly don't like the DC drop (by 5 no less!). At its full value it is around 50% successful (assuming the attack hits); at the second use its 25%; from then onwards there is only a 5% success change (though you can likely try 3 or so more times. It isn't mechanically sound, its disingenuous to the typical adventuring day (which tends to scale up in difficulty the longer it drags on).
Distinguishing between Knockout and Quivering Palm with an eroding DC is, I think, not the way to go. It is an unnecessary distinction - having a Str/Dex-based DC is already a great enough difference.
If it needs some sort of limitation, a shrinking DC isn't the way to go about it, for sure. Maybe something like "You can only do it once per hour, or you get Fatigued" or something similar.
I think that Martial Maneuvers of the brawler is too powerful and tricky.
IMHO add the rules that the brawler level count as monk and warrior level on the purpose of feats is enough for replacing Martial Maneuvers. Too many feats for this class.
I think that Martial Maneuvers of the brawler is too powerful and tricky.
IMHO add the rules that the brawler level count as monk and warrior level on the purpose of feats is enough for replacing Martial Maneuvers. Too many feats for this class.
How is it too powerful? And this class needs a lot of feats to make up for the lack of weapon training and low AC potential.
@CF- i don't know if you looked at the playtest builds i posted or not, but (for us at least) the brawler's AC was pretty competitive with a 2hand fighter...
regarding feats, they are really close to the fighter... over 20 levels the fighter get 11 bonus feats- brawler gets 7, but they also get the 3 2WF feats (which they don't need to meet requirements for) and a hidden (better version of) Double Slice, so that's functionally 11 feats also! and then they add martial maneuvers to that... that's pretty potent.
@CF- i don't know if you looked at the playtest builds i posted or not, but (for us at least) the brawler's AC was pretty competitive with a 2hand fighter...
regarding feats, they are really close to the fighter... over 20 levels the fighter get 11 bonus feats- brawler gets 7, but they also get the 3 2WF feats (which they don't need to meet requirements for) and a hidden (better version of) Double Slice, so that's functionally 11 feats also! and then they add martial maneuvers to that... that's pretty potent.
The Flurry seems a bit forced in my eyes. And my experience is with much longer adventuring days that involve more than 5, 1 minute, encounters. And your brawler had to pick up mithral breastplate (Does Mithral make it count as light armor?) while the fighter could just stick with full plate and your fighter didn't have to drop his Con to keep his dex high.
I think that Martial Maneuvers of the brawler is too powerful and tricky.
I disagree. Have you tried using it in practice? The limitations are very restrictive.
i don't know if you looked at the playtest builds i posted or not, but (for us at least) the brawler's AC was pretty competitive with a 2hand fighter...
A fighter that chooses to focus on two-handed weapons is doing so by choice and has a very easy time getting passable AC due to the availability of fullplate (which in turn allows for lower Dexterity).
A brawler on the other hand is MADder, needs some Dexterity for AC, he is limited to light armor, which starts her off on 5 less AC than the two-handed fighter. She doesn't get free shield proficiency (and shields don't mesh well with all her class abilities and concept), whereas the fighter can still switch to the shield when he feels it is appropriate. The brawler's bonus AC isn't enough to compensate for that.
A fighter doesn't have to go the two-handed route though, a sword-n-board fighter is fairly common. The "fighter" as a class is very open-ended and can very easily have one of the highest ACs in the game. The brawler is far more specialized and every +1 to AC is a triumph.
The Flurry seems a bit forced in my eyes. And my experience is with much longer adventuring days that involve more than 5, 1 minute, encounters. And your brawler had to pick up mithral breastplate (Does Mithral make it count as light armor?) while the fighter could just stick with full plate and your fighter didn't have to drop his Con to keep his dex high.@CF- i don't know if you looked at the playtest builds i posted or not, but (for us at least) the brawler's AC was pretty competitive with a 2hand fighter...
regarding feats, they are really close to the fighter... over 20 levels the fighter get 11 bonus feats- brawler gets 7, but they also get the 3 2WF feats (which they don't need to meet requirements for) and a hidden (better version of) Double Slice, so that's functionally 11 feats also! and then they add martial maneuvers to that... that's pretty potent.
I stand to be corrected, but to my knowledge mithral breastplate counts as light armor when worn for certain purposes (not necessarily including brawler's flurry). But it still requires medium armor proficiency to wear without penalty.
The Flurry seems a bit forced in my eyes. And my experience is with much longer adventuring days that involve more than 5, 1 minute, encounters. And your brawler had to pick up mithral breastplate (Does Mithral make it count as light armor?) while the fighter could just stick with full plate and your fighter didn't have to drop his Con to keep his dex high.@CF- i don't know if you looked at the playtest builds i posted or not, but (for us at least) the brawler's AC was pretty competitive with a 2hand fighter...
regarding feats, they are really close to the fighter... over 20 levels the fighter get 11 bonus feats- brawler gets 7, but they also get the 3 2WF feats (which they don't need to meet requirements for) and a hidden (better version of) Double Slice, so that's functionally 11 feats also! and then they add martial maneuvers to that... that's pretty potent.
I stand to be corrected, but to my knowledge mithral breastplate counts as light armor when worn for certain purposes (not necessarily including brawler's flurry). But it still requires medium armor proficiency to wear without penalty.
That's why I raised the question and as far as I can tell that brawler didn't take medium armor proficiency. Armor expert doesn't grant proficiency and I don't know what Wendifa apprentice does.
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I played a level 1 brawler at a Society table last night.
The scenario was: #2-01: Before the Dawn Part 1—The Bloodcove Disguise (played tier 1-2)
The party consisted of a: Bard (1); Monk (Master of Many Styles 2)-notably; Monk (Flowing Monk 2?); Samurai (Sword Sage 1); Ranger? (1?, ranged specialty); and my Brawler (1).
We participated in all of the required encounters, but were forced to skip the optional one.
I was brought to very low hit points in two of the fights, but not actually dropped. About 60% of all the attacks that were launched at me missed, but I failed the one Fortitude save I had to make.
I'll admit my feat selection left a lot of be desired. I was going into a Disarm specialty, but the only time it might have been worth disarming something, I couldn't hit it because of Invisibility.
I activated my Martial Maneuver in the fight to get Blind Fight, but a poor Acrobatics roll left me on the prone and by the time I could get into the fight it the DM had the Summoner abandon Invisibility and it didn't matter.
Overall, I felt pretty much like a level 1 fighter. I approached the target and attacked. Mt feat selection, and probably poor stat choices, probably didn't help this feeling much, but I found it hard to differentiate the Brawler from my Fighter when she was level 1.
I played a level 1 brawler at a Society table last night.
The scenario was: #2-01: Before the Dawn Part 1—The Bloodcove Disguise (played tier 1-2)
The party consisted of a: Bard (1); Monk (Master of Many Styles 2)-notably; Monk (Flowing Monk 2?); Samurai (Sword Sage 1); Ranger? (1?, ranged specialty); and my Brawler (1).
We participated in all of the required encounters, but were forced to skip the optional one.
** spoiler omitted **
Overall, I felt pretty much like a level 1 fighter. I approached the target and attacked. Mt feat selection, and probably poor stat choices, probably didn't help this feeling much, but I found it hard to differentiate the Brawler from my Fighter when she was level 1.
That's level 1 for ya although that does bring up the poor action economy of Martial Maneuvers.
I also think Flurry should be an option or just remove it completely. Even if it means the option of taking two paths(TWF or no TWF) at character creation.
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I also think Flurry should be an option or just remove it completely. Even if it means the option of taking two paths(TWF or no TWF) at character creation.
Multiple paths is actually exactly what I'd like to see...
i just realized that i forgot the weapon training bonuses for the fighter build i posted from our playtest... also, the abstract damage comparison might not have been as useful as it could be- so here's some more concrete comparisons-
the fighter is at +19 to hit (+8 BAB +6 Str +2 feats +2 enhancement +1 wpn training). using power attack (which he always did) his 2 attacks are +19/11 for 2d6+25 (+9 Str +9 PA +2 feats +2 enhancement +2 arcane strike +1 wpn training).
the brawler at +18 to hit (+8 BAB +6 Str +2 feats +2 enhancement). using power attack and flurry (which was the player's go to tactic) his attacks are at +16/13/8/8 for 1d8+18 (+6 Str +6 PA +2 feats +2 enhancement +2 arcane strike).
APL -2 for them is avg AC 19. so, based on actual hit% (but not calculating crits):
F- .95(2d6+25) + .65(2d6+25) = 51.2 expected DPR
B- .9(1d8+18) + .75(1d8+18) + .5(1d8+18) + .5(1d8+18) = 59.625 eDPR
APL would be avg AC 21. same set up:
F- .95(2d6+25) + .55(2d6+25) = 48 eDPR
B- .8(1d8+18) + .65(1d8+18) + .4(1d8+18) + .4(1d8+18) = 50.625 eDPR
APL +2 raises avg AC to 24. so same calculations:
F- .8(2d6+25) + .4(2d6+25) = 38.4 eDPR
B- .65(1d8+18) + .5(1d8+18) + .25(1d8+18) + .25(1d8+18) = 37.125 eDPR
conclusion: just like in our experience, the math shows that the brawler out damages the fighter in encounters where CR=APL or less, but the fighter start to pull ahead in CR>APL. this math doesn't account for crits (which will actually favor the Brawler too) or for uses of Martial Maneuvers (though in this build there isn't much room to use it for extra hit/damage).
when i rebuilt these guys from memory i think i made the fighter a little more optimized than his player had, so this comparison is maybe a little bit more theorycraft than the playtest results (which i described in an earlier post), but they're pretty similar (the numbers are a little closer together here than they seemed in the game).
edit: @chaotic fighter and lorekeeper- he wasn't proficient with medium armor, but with armor expert mithril breastplate has 0 armor check penalty (which means there is literal no penalty for non-proficiency). wendifa apprentice grants Daze as a SLA with CL=character level- its really just so they could take Arcane Strike (that was one of the things the brawler actually did in the playtest but i don't think the fighter did- i added it for a more even comparison).
i just realized that i forgot the weapon training bonuses for the fighter build i posted from our playtest... also, the abstract damage comparison might not have been as useful as it could be- so here's some more concrete comparisons-
** spoiler omitted **when i rebuilt these guys from memory i think i made the fighter a little more optimized than his player had, so this comparison is maybe a little bit more theorycraft than the playtest results (which i described in an earlier post), but they're pretty similar (the numbers are a little closer together here than they seemed in the game).
edit: @chaotic fighter and lorekeeper- he...
Next question it does that breastplate count for the flurry. I'm all for hearing a yes on that. And how do critical favor the brawler?
Edit: Never mind. I forgot he was using a temple sword. Which he did get the proficiency in.
I have always hated flurry and full round attacks for supposedly such a mobile class as monk and when the archtypes came along that allowed me to replace that i rejoiced.
Okay so the brawler isn't so mobile he will get in there and hammer it out.
But...
it seems to me its ranger, fighter, and monk.
two weapon fighting as mandatory?
why not come up with a skirmish ability, ya know, move x feet get such and such bonus
except such and such bonus is a sundering ability.
make it work with acrobatics jump to give it more oomph. which in turns rewards people with acrobatics.
Then the acrobatics would work into awesome blow making it not such a far fetched leap.
remember feats means flavor and infinite direction.
those class features do wrangle in the brawler to a specific direction but at what cost to those who want just a fighter/monk template with no extraneous influence.
i'd rather trade in the two weapon fighting for a little more maneuverability and less rigidity in the class.
Next question it does that breastplate count for the flurry. I'm all for hearing a yes on that. And how do critical favor the brawler?
yes- although it requires medium armor proficiency, mithril breastplate is light armor... it works for the brawler's AC bonus and other features that require light armor, although the flurry feature never actually says that it requires light armor- RAW (for now) you could flurry in fullplate...
adding in crits always makes the math look complex... its actually not bad though- the formula for crit damage is [bonus damage x Crit Threat% x Confirmation%]; since (in these builds) Confirmation% = hit% and bonus damage=base damage, the expected bonus damage from crits averages out to [threat% x eDPR] each turn. so, i guess really the crits favor whoever has the higher eDPR (the brawler, until CR>APL).
there's a slight shift if/when you add in Critical Focus... confirmation% can never exceed .95 (because 1 always misses), so any attack that has better than a .75 hit% gains less benefit than a lower % attack- which means that, in every scenario i looked at, the increased chance to confirm will up the brawler's bonus damage more than the fighter's (plus the brawler can add it anytime with martial maneuvers).
you also mentioned a higher number of encounters/day- that would not in any way affect the numbers comparison i did (which did not factor in martial maneuvers).
brawlers already get as many (or very nearly as many) bonus feats as a fighter. more uses of martial maneuvers (or longer duration) seems completely unnecessary...
brawlers already get as many (or very nearly as many) bonus feats as a fighter. more uses of martial maneuvers (or longer duration) seems completely unnecessary...
If it he's enough feats why not just get rid of martial maneuvers for a different ability entirely?
Also I didn't aim the martial maneuvers usability specifically at your playtest.
Would it be too powerful if Brawler's Flurry could substitute grapple checks for attacks? Sort of Flurry of Maneuvers but in it's base. I guess it would be confusing if it was too different from Monk's flurry, but could be an fun archetype to do Zangief levels of grapple combos.
Would it be too powerful if Brawler's Flurry could substitute grapple checks for attacks? Sort of Flurry of Maneuvers but in it's base. I guess it would be confusing if it was too different from Monk's flurry, but could be an fun archetype to do Zangief levels of grapple combos.
Triple suplex eta.
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If it he's enough feats why not just get rid of martial maneuvers for a different ability entirely?
actually, i think they maybe should... or at least change it significantly. i actually had an idea for one possible way to (maybe) address it- i had posted it in a separate thread but the devs closed the thread and asked that we keep that sort of thing in these threads (so as to avoid overwhelming numbers of parallel threads).
so, for any interested, here's one possible way to tone down martial maneuvers a bit and make it (infinitely easier for GMs to adjudicate):
- replace martial maneuvers with:
Martial Stance (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a standard action to enter a martial stance for 1 minute. While in this stance the brawler gains the benefits of one or more feats she does not possess. This ability can be used 1/day at first level plus one additional time at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. If the brawer activates this ability again before the duration of a a previous use has expired the first stance immediately ends before the new stance takes effect.
Each time you use this ability choose one stance from the list below. Unless otherwise stated, the brawler does not need to meet the prerequisites for any of the feats she gains.
Agile Stance- The brawler gains the use of the Dodge feat. At 6th level she also gain use of Lightning Reflexes. At 10th level she adds Sidestep to these.
Critical Stance- When initiating this stance you must choose unarmed strikes or a single weapon with the Monk property, all of the bonus feats you gain from this stance only apply to that weapon. At 8th level, the brawler gains the use of Improved Critical. At 10th level she also gains use of Critical Focus. At 14th level she also selects any one Critical feat to gain, she must meet all the requirements of this third feat (but counts the other bonus feats granted by this stance for the purpose of meeting those requirements). You must be at least 8th level to initiate this stance.
Defensive Stance- The brawler gains the use of Combat Expertise. She also gains the use of Deflect Arrows, beginning at 6th level. At 10th level she gains the Iron Hide feat. If she already has this feat she instead gains the Improved Natural Armor feat.
Enduring Stance- At 1st level you gain the use of the Diehard feat. At 6th level you gain Toughness; at the end of your stance the hit points gained from this feat are lost (similar to a barbarian ending her rage). At 10th level you gain the use of Deathless Initiate.
Flurrying Stance- The brawler gains use of the Quick Draw feat. She also gains the use of Two-Weapon Defense at 6th level and Two-Weapon Rend at 11th level, but these two feats can only be used when combined with Brawler’s Flurry.
Maneuvering Stance- Choose one combat maneuver; the brawler gains the use of the Improved feat associated with that feat (e.g. Improved Bull Rush, Improved Trip, etc.). At 6th level she gains the Greater feat as well. At 10th level she also gains the associated Strike feat (e.g. Repositioning Strike, Sundering Strike, etc.); if the chosen maneuver does not have an associated Strike feat she can instead choose another maneuver and gain its Improved feat as well.
Mobile Stance- The brawler gains the use of Nimble Moves. At 6th level she gains the use of Spring Attack. At 10th level she gains the use of Wind Stance.
Overwhelming Stance- The brawler gains use of the Cleave feat. She also gains Great Cleave at 6th level and Cleave Through at 11th.
Punishing Stance- The brawler gains use of the Power Attack feat. She also gains the use of Vital Strike at 6th level and Devastating Strike at 10th level.
Shielded Stance- For the duration of her stance, the brawler gains proficiency with shields (but not tower shields). At 6th level she gains the use of the Missile Shield feat, and at 10th level the Ray Shield feat.
Sightless Stance- At 5th level, the brawler gains use of the Blind-Fighting feat. At 10th level she gains Improved Blind-Fighting, and at 15th level she gains Greater Blind-Fighting. You must be at least 5th level to initiate this stance.
Style Stance- The brawler gains the use a single Style feat; she must meet all the requirements for this feat. At 6th level she also gains the use of the second feat in that style’s tree, and at 10th she gains the final feat. She does not need to meet the requirements for the second and third feats.
Weapon Master Stance- When initiating this stance you must choose unarmed strikes or a single weapon with the Monk property, all of the bonus feats you gain are related to that weapon. At 1st level you gain Weapon Focus. At 6th level you gain Weapon Specialization. At 10th level you gain Greater Weapon Focus.
- replace awesome blow with:
Perfect Stance: At 20th level the brawler has become a true master of martial stances. She can initiate a stance as a swift action. She gains a +4 competence bonus to a single physical attribute of her choice for the duration of her stance. If this bonus is applied to Constitution the brawler gains +2 hp/hit die but the hit points are lost when she stops receiving this bonus (just like a barbarian coming out of rage). The brawler also gains the ability to switch which stance she is using without initiating a new stance. At any time during the 1 minute duration of her stance she can spend a swift action to change to a different stance and to reassign her attribute bonus if she wishes; doing so has no effect on the duration of that use of her ability and does not cost an additional use.
oh, PS- it also addresses the concerns about qualifying for improved maneuvers and certain style feats :)