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Let's see what abilities stem from the parents:
From the Barbarian side:
•Bloodrage (the morale bonuses)
•Fast movement
•uncanny dodge
•improved uncanny dodge
•DR
•Indomitable Will
•Tireless Rage
And from the Sorcerer:
•Eschew Materials
•4th level spell list
•Bloodlines
•Bloodline Feats
So it stands to reason that the barbarian side can have some give.
I'd be okay with giving up Fast Movement and the DR to help the spellcasting and hopefully get a Good Will Save progression.
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It's not even an errata, they just corrected the people who misinterpreted the ability.They erattad that, the Bloodrager CAN cast outside of raging.Overall I like the Bloodrager.
I have a few gripes with the class. One is a lack of a good will save, the paladin has it, so why not the bloodrager? Another is that the bloodrager cannot cast spells outside of rage. It seems strange that he has to be really angry to do something that the sorcerer has to be at peace to do. I would allow it to cast spells both in- and out og rage, it's spell list is rather limited anyway.
I also think that it would suit the class to have it's own spell list.
Errata/clarification , tomatoe/tomato
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You just spent your turn casting dispel magic on a berserk guy with a falchion. You win a prize!Dispel MagicShield, blur, mirror image, cloak of winds...The reason barbarians have the 2 uncanny dodges and damage reduction is because of their lack of heavy armor and the AC penalty they are hit with when raging. Take away those from the bloodrager, and what will be his defensive compensation?
Is the prize my lackey with the fullplate and greatsword eating the falchion and giving the berserk guy a poke with his sword while I laugh? Because I would be a terrible evil magic user if I didn't have (un)paid lackeys to take the brunt of the swords to the face.
Abilities of the barbarian: Fast movement, rage, trap sense, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, rage powers, greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage.
Abilities of the sorcerer: Eschew materials, bloodlines, bloodline spells, bloodline powers, full casting, bloodline feats.
Abilities of the bloodrager: Fast movement, (blood)rage, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, bloodline powers, bloodline spells, bloodline feats, greater (blood)rage, tireless (blood)rage, mighty (blood)rage, indomitable will, half casting, eschew materials, and blood casting.
Everything from the sorcerer class, and 95% of the barbarian class is in the bloodrager class. The only thing not from either class is full casting (but it can still cast) and rage powers. Plus it gets its own ability Blood Casting, allowing it to cast class spells while raging.
Now im just spitballing ideas here, but what if in order to make the class more of the self-buffing kind, we replaced the magus spell list with the summoner spell list? give or take a few spells.
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we had this huge thing about avoiding the bloodrager being yet another self-buffer.
Now im just spitballing ideas here, but what if in order to make the class more of the self-buffing kind, we replaced the magus spell list with the summoner spell list? give or take a few spells.
Because he can already do that and we are trying to avoid the boring?
What I don't get is why people aren't say, "Why take barbarian when you can take this and be a self buffing barbarian."
Honestly how about we move away from the mundane simple idea and move into making him something actually different?
i see your point
I just dont see the point of using blast spells in rage if i don't get any bonuses from it.
All of them?
You get the double bonus of looking cool and having more dead enemies :3i see your point
I just dont see the point of using blast spells in rage if i don't get any bonuses from it.
+1
Yeah i see where your coming from
AM BLLODRAGER APPRECIATES 2ND LEVEL HASTE.Now im just spitballing ideas here, but what if in order to make the class more of the self-buffing kind, we replaced the magus spell list with the summoner spell list? give or take a few spells.Because he can already do that and we are trying to avoid the boring?
What I don't get is why people aren't say, "Why take barbarian when you can take this and be a self buffing barbarian.
Honestly how about we move away from the mundane simple idea and move into making him something actually different?
I'm not saying some buffing isn't useful -- just that it would be nice if you could simply explode someone's head with a shout every now and then or some lightning.
i see your point
I just dont see the point of using blast spells in rage if i don't get any bonuses from it.
And I'm saying that he should get some bonuses from it.
And I'm saying that he should get some bonuses from it.i see your point
I just dont see the point of using blast spells in rage if i don't get any bonuses from it.
likewise
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Could you imagine some guy saying "finish him." And the BR punches a guy in the chest and shoots a lightning bolt through him?
Could you imagine some guy saying "finish him." And the BR punches a guy in the chest and shoots a lightning bolt through him?
Yes -- I could, and I would like to.
Not like a magus would with a spell combat feature, but with raw brutality and sheer ouch factor coming through.
After all this guy isn't subtle, he isn't sophisticated -- he's a power house that you are afraid to get in the way of.
Not because you are uncertain of overcoming his defenses, but because you don't think you can end him before he ends you and you know self preservation isn't as high on his list as taking you out is.
hey, between the bloodlines and other cha-class options (oracle dip, paladin dip since alignment restrictions aren't a thing for BR, EH for side abilities) you can get some respectable defenses as well.
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Let me try a build:
Human
20 pb- Str 18, dex 10, con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 14
Bloodrager 1 (arcane bloodline) fey foundling, power attack
Bloodrager 2
Bloodrager 3 furious focus
Bloodrager 4
Bloodrager 5 weapon focus or toughness
Bloodrager 6 improved initiative
Bloodrager 7 vital strike
Bloodrager 8
Paladin 1 (sacred servant) furious focus
Paladin 2
Paladin 3 improved vital strike or greater mercy
Always wanted to be a barbarian and paladin (since maenad is not an available race) and use furious focus. Bloodrager gets enlarge person for the extra damage for vital strike and you can rage cycle using fatigue mercy. I like fey foundling as the more hp (and less AC) you have the more healing drain to the cleric you are. Feats are up to your own liking, but I like the idea of furious focus rage cycling with the added healing.
Level 20 would be bloodrager +3, paladin +5, maybe oracle 1 for lame curse to be immune to fatigue and use greater mercy to better effect. At bloodrager 11 you get the upgraded rage and paladin 8 gets 4d6+8 lay on hands. Additional feats would be raging vitality and maybe more of the vital strike feats.
let's see, some possible builds form just the bloodlines available off the top of my head:
arcane: step up (and strike) line, spellbreaker line (and shatterspell if dwarf) mage-killer build. also; free haste/blur while i'm raging? yes please!
celestial: paladin-esque mounted build? might be cool (especially if they can qualify for the mounted rager barbarian archetype).
draconic: surprisingly tanky setup that would lead flawlessly into DD if they stack for bloodlines (for even more bonuses). even if they dont, consider it anyway, it's still a decent choice.
undead: intimidating prowess/cornugon smash/dreadful carnage fear-stacking frontliner.
fey seems kinda meh (especially compared to arcane), and infernal/abyssal/elemental seem like good all-rounders.
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for any of these, consider dipping 2 in paladin for better saves, oracle for better AC (less of a problem for draconic, with their natural armor boost), and consider the eldritch heritage feats if you have space--or and abyssal's boost to STR is quite nice.
I don't see how 1 point of DR at level 7 is supposed to make up for defense, or DR 2 at level 10.
I mean if you are going to discount mirror image and their other magical defense options as too little too late and too vulnerable I really don't think you can claim the ability to keep your Dex modifier in a surprise round and not be flanked plus a grand total of DR 5 at level 19 as a solid defense back up.
Abraham, chill out.
We both both know Uncanny Dodge do more than letting you keep yor dex mod. And with dex 14 keeping +2 to ac is really good. And not being flanked is really good.
Honestly it's not that good though. It's a very limited initial bonus (have to be screwed in a surprise round and even then it's not a bonus, you just aren't as screwed as everyone else) and in another very limited situation you don't give the bad guys a +2 bonus.
I mean it really isn't a big bonus. The DR is incredibly late and an incredibly small amount, and people are acting like it is a big deal.
I mean really it isn't on either case. Uncanny dodge is at best alright and improved uncanny dodge is great only if you are consistently fighting people with sneak attack.
If we want to say, "Hey he needs some defense" these are not really the abilities to say, "Alright you have some defense now."
These abilities are not going to make or break your defense. Losing his Uncanny dodge isn't really going to hurt this class for most of his career, and it's not going to really help him either.
Sorry Abe. This is just BS.
With UC you can't be Sneak attacked unless flanked.
And +2 (or more) to AC is a good boost. Heck the reason fighters get Gloves of Dueling is not because the bonus to CMD or +2 to damage. It is because the +2 bonus to hit.
Sorry Abraham I think you really are wrong.
for melees, hit chance is king. for mages, DCs and CL are king (in that order).
Wow. Abe's rounds in bloodrage= equivalent level of metamagic is...well, awesome. I don't see it as a probable replacement for the base class but it would make a SWEET archetype (one that I would probably play, at least). I didn't see anybody else use this analogy for it, but it really made me think of that "Super-Bar" charging at the bottom of the screen in a fighting game like Street Fighter or Samurai Showdown. Also, I don't mind having some mechanic for more spells/day but don't see it as necessary.
I've seen a lot of comments/complaints about not having enough spells or wanting higher level spells or wanting a more robust spell list than the Magus'. Poppycock, I say. The only way I think that more spells would work would be to reduce BAB (EFF, NO!) or to add some kind of mechanic that allowed the BR to sacrifice another, very useful, resource (like rage) for more spells (that's more like it). And for a martial arcane caster? What better spell list than the Magus'?
Another issue I've seen, but am surprised to not have seen more, is that CHA is important to the class but doesn't matter too much. A solution that I've seen (ok, a proposed change that at least adds CHA to other aspects of the class) is to weave it in to the rage mechanic; either to have the option of boosting CHA instead of STR or (and I like this one better) to have rounds of rage measured in CHA bonus rather than CON.
That's all for now. Thank you, Paizo, for what may be the coolest class, yet.
And for a martial arcane caster? What better spell list than the Magus'?
It's own list?
Now, if the Bloodrager was a 6-level caster, then the Magus list would probably be fine. But the Bloodrager is not a 6-level caster, it's a 4-level caster, and the Magus is already a little slow on the casting progression, so slowing that down even more is really painful.For example, Bloodrager's have to wait until level 13(!) to get Fire Shield. Simply put, Fire Shield is not good enough of a spell to have to wait until what is likely the very end of your career to cast.
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Oh, one more thing: can we get Knowledge (nature)? I can definitely see BRs not taking it, but it's kind of Bararian-ish, and shouldn't unbalance anything.
And for a martial arcane caster? What better spell list than the Magus'?It's own list?
Now, if the Bloodrager was a 6-level caster, then the Magus list would probably be fine. But the Bloodrager is not a 6-level caster, it's a 4-level caster, and the Magus is already a little slow on the casting progression, so slowing that down even more is really painful.For example, Bloodrager's have to wait until level 13(!) to get Fire Shield. Simply put, Fire Shield is not good enough of a spell to have to wait until what is likely the very end of your career to cast.
Okay. I can't disagree with you, there. I'm under the impression, though, that Paizo will not be writing new spell lists for ACG.
With UC you can't be Sneak attacked unless flanked.And +2 (or more) to AC is a good boost. Heck the reason fighters get Gloves of Dueling is not because the bonus to CMD or +2 to damage. It is because the +2 bonus to hit.
Sorry Abraham I think you really are wrong.
Being immune to sneak attack is nice. So is a hypothetical ability to cast a swift blur, which also makes you immune to sneak attack.
And really, uncanny dodge fits the idea of the savage, survival-oriented barbarian. It's the whole heightened beast-like senses thing. The eldritch berserker filled with magical fury? Not so much.
Oh, one more thing: can we get Knowledge (nature)? I can definitely see BRs not taking it, but it's kind of Bararian-ish, and shouldn't unbalance anything.
Okay, so I just noticed that bloodrager bloodlines don't grant new class skills. Weird.
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Oh, one more thing: can we get Knowledge (nature)? I can definitely see BRs not taking it, but it's kind of Bararian-ish, and shouldn't unbalance anything.Okay, so I just noticed that bloodrager bloodlines don't grant new class skills. Weird.
Hmm. I didn't even think about that. If we can't get Know (nature), can we get an added skill or two to each of the bloodlines? Can we even if we do?
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Well the bloodrager could also get a class skill based on his bloodline like the sorcerer does.
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Wanted to post my impressions from a playtest that happened tonight. We ran a party of four. 4th level. 25 point buy. Our party consisted of a Brawler, a Skald, a Bloodrager, and a Hunter. Thoughts on the Bloodrager:
-The character playing the Bloodrager had a lot of fun.
-At fourth level, they had only a taste of spells, but never cast any of them in any of the five encounters. It always seemed like a better idea to be hitting someone. Particularly was in one situation, where we were having a difficult time hitting a particular enemy, our Bloodrager had True Strike, but would have had to 1)spend an action not trying to hit 2)risk losing the spell either from casting on the defensive (which due to the MAD of the class, they weren't incredibly strong with) or risk a hit when their AC was low due to Bloodraging.
-Particularly fun were the Blood powers. They felt very different from playing a Barbarian. One thing the player did note, however, was that not all Bloodlines were on par with one another, and there was a lot of redundancy. She chose Arcane Bloodline, but noticed that there were a few that added elemental damage, a few that grew claws, and a few that added effects on critical hits. Branching out more and finding new and different abilities to manifest with these powers would really make someone willing to take Fey Bloodline, for instance.
-Damage and staying power felt on par with Barbarian.
Slayer, some people have commented that the Fey Bloodline seemed weak. Looking over the abilities, it's one of my favorites (Abyssal pretty much tying for first). Thoughts?
it's not that it's weak, it's just rather... lackluster when compared to the other lines--particularly arcane, which gets two of the same powers (only more flexible and at an earlier level).
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Fey has some good stuff. I think confusing critical is good for aggro lock, and blurring charge and fury of the fey are pretty beautiful. I think the main problems with the Fey bloodline are the spells hideous laughter and deep slumber. Hideous laughter is a good spell, but at 10th level, a base DC of 12 is not going to cut it. Deep slumber, on the other hand, can affect only 10 HD of creatures at 13th level. Uh, thanks.
Don't get me wrong! I feel like Arcane is the easy "power" choice. I have a PFS BarbOracle (Nature), though, who may just retrain to BR: Fey because I really like how it all blends together. That said, the cost may be too great to justify losing my very flavorful axebeak mount (PFS boon).
While Arcane and Abyssal (and Aberrant!) offer a LOT, I don't feel like Fey is gypped in any way; they have excellent abilities for the flavor (you can't honestly expect a Fey bloodline character to destroy stuff as easily as an Abyssal bloodline BR).
I guess what I'm getting at is that Arcane is like SUPER awesome, but the others are certainly awesome. You're preference (pretty much what I'm asking for; don't let my rebuttal stop you from posting!) may be for optimization or for flavor; I think Fey has a good combination of the two.
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Bloodrager looks like an awesome class for Dragon Disciple and it should counts as being a sorcerer for the prestige class.
The only thing I would add to Bloodrager is that classes that allow levels to stack when determining bloodline powers should also stack when determining the number of rounds you can bloodrage. This will make fix the issue of a Bloodrager having too short of a number rounds to bloodrage as a Dragon Disciple.
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It is a full BaB class that gets d10 hit points, martial weapon proficiency, rage AND bloodline powers.
Oh, and 4 levels of spells.
The bloodline powers cover the fast movement/DR/uncanny dodge part (until you get spell). Lose all of that, throw in another bloodline feat at 2nd, level and call it a day.
on cellphone, so apologies for a lack of formating.
ability suggestion.
rampaging spell. replaces uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and the damage reduction.
when casting a spell that does damage adds class level to the spell damage, double when raging. at the damage reduction levels it also increases the spell dc by 1 when raging. the dc increase increases each time the bloodrager would have gotten another point of dr.
So at level 10 a raging fireball will do 10 d6 +20? I think that may be on the high side.
I can see it in a AT but i dont think it should ever open into multiclassing with the crossblooded sorcerer( i know it dosent atm)I know it is only a few times a Day and there fore i also think it is alot of character power to put in it. I would rather keep the DR and the UCs. And just get the possibility to take some feats that look like tha AP free magus arcanas at the proper levels.
Haven't read through all of these posts, just wanted to get my opinion out there. I love the idea behind the bloodrager. The ability to rage and get pumped with magic fire at the same time is like going Super Saiyan in my mind. There are a few things i would change though.
1. Change the spell dependent score from Charisma to Constitution. Since they can't cast spells without getting their blood pumping, Con seems like a better controlling score to me. It could also add some dynamic in blood loss. As in, the bloodrager takes so much Constitution damage that he becomes unable to cast his spells.
2. Magical rage powers. The bloodrager is a little disappointing in that, at equivalent levels to its base classes, its a watered down barbarian and a sorcerer with limited spells and abilities. You could have that just by multiclassing both of those classes. I'd suggest instead of the bonus feats and abilities automatically given in the Bloodlines, replace it with a list of Bloodrage Powers specific to the Bloodline, similar to oracle Revelations and magus Arcana but with a twist to fit heavy melee and raging. Hopefully that will help make the bloodrager more unique and its own class.
3. This may be answered in the Bloodrage Powers i brought up above, but it really needs some way to blend magic and melee combat the way magus does. Maybe cast a personal/touch spell on yourself at the start of a rage. Or spend rage rounds to cast a quickened spell(saw that suggested in another thread, spend 2+spell level amount of rage rounds to add quickened or maybe another metamagic feat to your Blood Casting spell.)
Haven't read through all of these posts, just wanted to get my opinion out there.
1. Change the spell dependent score from Charisma to Constitution. Since they can't cast spells without getting their blood pumping, Con seems like a better controlling score to me. It could also add some dynamic in blood loss. As in, the bloodrager takes so much Constitution damage that he becomes unable to cast his spells.
They can cast outside of rage. This has been clarified many times.
They can cast outside of rage. This has been clarified many times.Haven't read through all of these posts, just wanted to get my opinion out there.
1. Change the spell dependent score from Charisma to Constitution. Since they can't cast spells without getting their blood pumping, Con seems like a better controlling score to me. It could also add some dynamic in blood loss. As in, the bloodrager takes so much Constitution damage that he becomes unable to cast his spells.
Poor phrasing. I mean that their blood is the important part of their magic similar to the way a scarred witch doctor handles their scars and uses Con for spells. Did not mean that rage is necessary for casting but that the blood is the focus.
Also, hurray for nitpicking.
It is a full BaB class that gets d10 hit points, martial weapon proficiency, rage AND bloodline powers.
Oh, and 4 levels of spells.
The bloodline powers cover the fast movement/DR/uncanny dodge part (until you get spell). Lose all of that, throw in another bloodline feat at 2nd, level and call it a day.
far as ive seen, the bloodrager doesnt get any rage powers.