I came up with the idea while trying to build a Gunslinger after participating in this thread.
I got downright angry that this full BAB class gets to target touch AC with such powerful attacks.
You know... I GM for a TWF Gunslinger in my game. I can honestly say it's not nearly as much of a problem as people claim. It's only an issue is when they use double-barreled weapon.
That said, the rules for firearms are stupid and make no sense. How the hell does a lead bullet shot by an early firearm goes through all sorts of magical armory like a lightsaber goes through butter?
I actually like Gunslingers, but PF rules for firearms are terrible.
Alignment DR screws everyone who doesn't straight up ignore it but can usually be handled by some appropriate buffs.. That being said material DR is still a concern.
Well the reason I asked is because I generally find most natural attack builds suffer heavily vs DR because it's difficult to reasonably penetrate aligned or material DRs. Weapons can easily be tweaked with an oil of bless weapon or align weapon or with some cheap materials (silver / cold iron weapons are cheapsauce).
However, getting past DR with natural weapons is difficult and rarely super effective except in some cases such as eidolons and druids. Even then you have to make use of the X enhancement bypasses Y DRs regardless of material or alignment (something I've never cared much for since I think if you're not going to actually use DR then it's a waste of space).
The only other thing that concerned me about your build (which again, I really do like) is that the sneak attack damage is only applied once after you've moved (I was reading the skirmisher class), so the damage that's getting done is actually really low at about 46 damage on a charge / movement + attack.
If these questions could be met adequately, I'd be pretty impressed actually. It's a cute idea. I feel it says more about the race rather than the class since it's really the race that is enabling anything to happen.
Here's a full build for Scary Hairy the Boxerkitty at level 9. It uses the Thug and Scout Archetypes. At level 10 the build could get claw pounce which paired with scout would make charges considerably more powerful. The Enforcer Shatter Defence combo with 4 attacks should make full attack sneaks fairly easy to set up. In addition to massive DPR the build also has plenty of debuffing potential with possibilities to hand out shaken or frightened via Enforcer/Frightening and sickened via Brutal Beating.
So to me it looks like the build suffers from poor reflex and will saves and might also have problems with DR and dudes immune to nonlethal damage as well as fear. I'm sure the fine optimizers on these boards might have ideas on how to further improve on this build (e.g. Boots of speed would bump up DPR). Nice thing is that it's probably playable from level 2 onwards so it should work well for PFS should you be allowed to use Catfolk there...
Scary Hairy the Boxerkitty
CG Catfolk Rogue (Thug/Scout Archetype)
AC: 25 HP: 77 CMB: 13 CMD : 22 Init: +7
Ref: +14 Fort: +6 Wil: +5
Str 8 (-2)
Dex 24 (10 pts; level increases; +4 magic item)
Con 14 (5)
Wis 12 (5)
Int 10 (0)
Cha 14 (2)
Traits:
Adopted: Tusked
Blade of Mercy
Feats and Rogue Talents:
1 Enforcer
2 Finesse Rogue
3 Sap Adept
4 WF Claws
5 Sap Master
6 Vicious Claws
7 Dazzling display
8 Combat Feat: Shatter Defense
9 Extra Rogue Talent (Offensive Defense)
Abilities:
Cat’s Claws
Cat's Luck
Scent
Sprinter
Frightening
Sneak Attack +5d6
Evasion
Brutal Beating
Scout’s Charge
Skirmisher
Skills (72 ranks):
Intimidate +19
Stealth +19
Acrobatics +19
Perception +13
Disable Device +19
Diplomacy +14
Bluff +14
9 more ranks to assign by taste…
Equipment 46,000 GP
Helm of Mammoth Lord 8,500
Belt of Mighty DEX +4 16000
Agile amulet of mighty fists 4000
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 2000
Ring of Protection +1 2000
Darkleaf Studded Leather +2 4775
Cloak of Protection +1 1000
Mask of Scary Hairy (+5 to intimdate) 2500
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier 5000
1225 GP to spare…
Claw: to hit +14 (65%) Damage: 1d4+10d8+18= 65.5
Bite: to hit +13 (60%) Damage: 1d4+5d6+7= 27
Gore: to hit +13 (60%) Damage: 1d6+5d6+7= 28
Total DPR
65.5*.65*2 + 27*.6 +28*.6= 118.15 (85.15 nonlethal)
You can't get Claw Pounce until 14. It requires BAB 10. It also requires a 13 str, so you'd need an enhancement there as well.
Okay then that's not a concern perhaps scout isn't ideal for this build then...
Tengu Rogue's pounce takes a full round to set up and is extremely situational...
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Rogue: Add +1 to the number of times per day the rogue can cast a cantrip or 1st-level spell gained from the minor magic or major magic talent. The number of times this bonus is selected for the major magic talent cannot exceed the number of times it is selected for the minor magic talent. The rogue must possess the associated rogue talent to select these options.
Thats a reason to play a elf...nice ;)
With the chill touch spell, Do u do all attacks agaisnt that target in one standard action, or do u have to spread it out over mutiple turns?
If its all one standard action seems like you would run out of Omph.
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long quote:Rogue: Add +1 to the number of times per day the rogue can cast a cantrip or 1st-level spell gained from the minor magic or major magic talent. The number of times this bonus is selected for the major magic talent cannot exceed the number of times it is selected for the minor magic talent. The rogue must possess the associated rogue talent to select these options.
Thats a reason to play a elf...nice ;)
With the chill touch spell, Do u do all attacks agaisnt that target in one standard action, or do u have to spread it out over mutiple turns?
If its all one standard action seems like you would run out of Omph.
You get a number of touch attacks equal to your caster level (your rogue level). They last until you use them up and you can use as many a round as you're capable so you could hypothetically add in two weapon fighting feats and poke twice as fast.
The target doesn't matter.
At 12th level it gives you 12 touch attacks. You use 3 to kill one guy one round, then 3 more to kill his friend the next round, then you have 6 left and the spell doesn't care who/how/when you use them.
The Sneak Attack damage is all considered the same damage as the spell and bypasses Damage Reduction accordingly.
So the downside is that you don't get any bonus damage (strength, power attack, etc), the upside is that you enjoy 80-100% hit rate.
I think you could make normal attacks (unarmed strikes or natural attacks) and get strength/power attack/etc, but to do that you're dealing with normal AC instead of touch AC like some sort of plebian.
So I gain touch attacks equal to the number of attacks i gain per a turn nomraly? So at lvl 8 i can do two?
k.
Can u charge with it?
And how do u deal with AoE with casting the spell?
Whats the strat with it?
Cast it right after the battle and hold the charges indifently?
Also What about having a 1d3 dmg cantrap? That can add some mook killing later on.
I read some comments and try to improve my hero goblin. Instead of Lv10(25pt) a make him lv12(20pts).
Goblin Rogue(Sanctified) 10/ Oracle(Waves) 1/ Monk(Sensei) 1
(20pt)
Str:10
Dex:26 (+4belt + 3 lv)
Con:12
Int:11
Wis:16 (+2 hb)
Cha:11
Inic: + 10(dex,trait) CA:30(dex, wis, size,ice armor, dodge, ring, amulet, haste)
Hp:12d8+34
For:11 Ref:21 Will:14
Feats/Talents:
1:Point Blank Shot,
2:Ki pool
3:Rapid Shot
4:Weapon Training (shuiriken)
5:Extra Ki
6:Sniper's Eye
7:extra talente: ninja trick: flurry of stars
8:ninja trick:Pressure Points
9: revelation: Water Sight (oracle). Extra revelation:ice armor
10:Monk Bonus Feat:Dodge
11: Toughness
12:Hide in plan sight
Stealth +31
Oracle Spells: Obscure Mist, Abundant Amunnition
Bab+7/+2, +8Dex +1Size +1Haste(boots) +1WF +1PB +3Wand -2 Rapid Shot -2Flurry of Stars -2(BaB+1)Flurry Of bow
+1 bracer +1 inspire courage
Attacks: +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14
damage: 1d2 +5 +5d6 + 10 +1str dmg
Obscure mist centered on the goblin for SA all turns and 20-50% miss chance on him. Abundat Amunnition + Greater Magic Weapon.
Equip: belt 16k, headband 4k, boots of speed 12k, Bracers ofof Falcon´s Aim 13k, Sniper Goggles 20k, Cloak of Resistence+3 9k, rinf of prot+1 2k, Amulet of Nat. Arm+1 2k, Wand of magic weapon greater CL12 13,5k
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I have played around with making feinting viable quite a bit. I don't think the moonlight stalker chain really does it for me anyway because it is situational. The best way to do it is to have a familiar do it.
Step 1: Get a familiar. Either through carnivalist, eldritch heritage, or minor magic, major magic, and familiar rogue talents.
Step 2: Slap the valet archetype on it
Step 3: Improve it, evolve it, or both
Step 4: Take feint partner, improved feint partner, paired opportunists, combat reflexes
Example:
Half-elf or human swashbuckler rogue
1. skill focus: knowledge arcane, combat expertise
2. improved feint
3. eldritch heritage arcane
4. rogue talent of choice
5. combat reflexes
6. rogue talent of choice
7. improved familiar
8. greater feint
9. improved feint partner
10. paired opportunists
11. evolved familiar
12. opportunist
13. gang up
14. advanced rogue talent of choice
15. improved critical in what ever weapon you prefer
16. advanced rogue talent of choice
17. seize the moment
18. advanced rogue talent of choice
19. outflank
20. advanced rogue talent of choice
With this specific build, you feint as your move. You familiar gets an attack of opportunity--but oh wait..you do too with paired opportunists. Then you take your standard action attack. Your familiar takes a standard action to feint and you get an attack of opportunity as well. That's three attacks at full BAB that will get sneak attack. If you or your familiar crits, add another. Your familiar will add some dpr in as well. More so if you decide to do this with carnivalist.
You can rearrange things to taste, take carnivalist to get the familiar earlier, dip fighter to get some feats sooner, etc. Broken Wing Gambit is a good feat as well for this build or even drop the feint chain of feats and just let your familiar do it as it's action.
Focusing on dex is a good idea because you will generate quite a few attacks of opportunity.
Evolved familiar may or may not be needed. I created a character that 'found' a jeweled dagger that was actually a Raktavarna. The bonus to bluff is nice here but any familiar with a positive charisma modifier will do.
Admittedly, vivisectionist does it better as I did a dhampir vivisectionist with a mud (blood) elemental tumor familiar. High ick factor with him. He even 'painfully regenerated' out of combat because his familiar had an anatomy doll tuned to him.
We're getting hung up on a couple things. Damage output and the Rogue class' abysmal ability to hit things.
Rightfully so, the Rogue's role in combat is a pretty hefty bone of contention and the Rogue's role outside of combat boils down to any number of a plethora of skills which will be whittled down depending on what the party needs.
So lets talk about the Rogue's role in combat.
1. Hit things.
2. Do damage.
Gee, that was easy, we've already covered that.
Of course limiting the definition of the Rogue's role in combat to just those two factors is silly. We have already honed in on Magic Item use a bit due to the class' easy access to the skill, but lets take a further step back.
Access to Acrobatics. Restricted to light armor. A few talents related to movement and Acrobatics.
It becomes clear to me, both from the class' design and my experience with the class (both as a player and a teammate), that another of the Rogue's chief roles is positioning. A flank qualifies for Sneak Attacks, a flank helps shore up the class' abysmal hit bonus, and a flank makes the rogue a contributing member of the team by allowing other teammates a bonus to hit.
The other classes commonly brought up in this discussion all have other methods of dealing with hit chance. Monks can Flurry or do maneuvers, Rangers have full BAB, Inquisitors have judgments, Bards have flutes or something, and Ninjas only just barely pretend to be team players.
The Rogue is the only class which requires a flank bonus and has no other method of pretending that it doesn't.
So rather than ignoring this and building a Rogue which stands all by his onesies and tries to bluff his way to sneak attacks somehow in a 1v1, lets reassess the Rogue's combat role:
1. Positioning/Flanking
2. Hit things
3. Do damage
While not forgetting the Rogue's other functions...
4. Spend as few Feats/Talents as possible in order to maximize whatever the hell else the party needs you to do.
Tall order. The Rogue is never. Ever. Under any circumstances going to hit a monster's AC as well as a full BAB class. Ever. These guys spend their whole lives training and fighting to hone their bodies into killing machines. The Rogue on the other hand has spent his whole life slacking off in bars, picking pockets, wenching, cheating in card games, and occasionally jumping someone with his friends.
The Fighter has devoted his whole life to his art. The Rogue has taken short cuts and milled about becoming a Jack of All Trades.
The Rogue is just plain never going to be a Fighter. So the Rogue shouldn't try to fight like one. The Rogue is never going to hit an AC well, so the Rogue should just not hit AC.
Stop trying to think like a Fighter, going through problems, and think like a Rogue, going around problems.
ELF ROGUE(SCOUT) 12
Yes, Elf. We'll get to why later. Scout is a given seeing as we want to focus on positioning. Scout gives us sneak attacks while positioning, so that is two birds with one stone. Keep the default Racial Traits.STR 10
DEX 16 (+2 race, +3 levels)
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 10Stat spread is easy enough. Could try to get more CON if you wanted, but I think it is smarter to help shore up the WILL save (another thing Elf helps with).
1. Weapon Finesse ("THATS CRAZY!?" Trust me).
2. Minor Magic [Prestidigitation or Mage Hand are probably best]
3. [open feat]
4. Major Magic [Chill Touch]
5. [open feat]
6. Offensive Defense
7. [open feat]
8. [open talent]
9. [open feat]
10. Skill Mastery - Acro, UMD, + whatever your group needs
11. Quicken Spell-Like Ability [Chill Touch]
12. [open talent]Couple of important distinctions:
MONSTER FEATS
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for themQuicken Spell-Like Ability
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat. The creature can use the chosen spell-like ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature can perform another action—including the use of another spell-like ability (but not another swift action)—in the same round that it uses a quickened spell-like ability. The creature may use only one quickened spell-like ability per round.
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see Table: Quickened Spell-Like Abilities.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Now the real reason why Elf was important.
FAVORED CLASS BONUS
1. HP
2. +1 minor magic
3. +1 minor magic
4. +1 major magic
5. +1 major magic
6. +1 minor magic
7. +1 major magic
8. +1 minor magic
9. +1 major magic
10. +1 minor magic
11. +1 major magicThe Rogue now has access to 7 castings of Chill Touch a day. This is a spell which will give the rogue 12 touch attacks for 1d6 damage, and most importantly, easy access to Sneak Attacks despite the Rogue's terrible to hit bonuses. Three of those castings can be done as a Swift Action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Without spending a single feat, you overcome spell resistance just like a level 12 Elf Wizard.
Keep a wand of Elemental Touch on hand incase of emergencies. The damage isn't subject to a save and the spell allows no Spell Resistance, however it requires you to draw a wand and only lasts 3 rounds. A Flame Blade wand lasts 3 minutes so it is a bit more convenient than Elemental Touch, however it is limited to Fire Damage and subject to Spell Resistance. Carrying both wands will ensure things are as hassle free as possible.
You don't have to worry about Damage Reduction and just with what is listed are hitting at 12/8 against touch AC, already plenty on most occasions. Add in a few magic items or feats and you can increase things as much as you want. Two weapon fighting? Feinting? Skills? More acrobatics stuff? Whatever.
This is amazing. Infact, you've inspired me. However, I'm going to one up it just slightly. He's going to be a gillman eldritch raider archetype in order to gain elemental touch 2/day and either vampiric touch 2/day, force punch 2/day. Probably vampiric touch for a melee "juicer". By losing elf I lose the +2 spell penetration, which is mitigated by the fact that I now have elemental touch without the wand, meaning I don't have to refresh it every three rounds. I also lose the bonus uses of my chill touch but honestly at higher levels both elemental and chill will last an entire combat each, and if your in more than 4 combats a day, well, you can fall back on a wand at that point. This means I get a couple extra hit points per level (or an extra advanced talent! Yay gillmen.) In addition to this I get the vampiric touch to give me some extra temp hit points when needed, or I get force punch to beat myself out of a jam if needed (although this would take a bit more optimizing.)
Along with this build, gillmen get a boost to con and a penalty to wisdom, which means you're trading your low hp for a lower will save, either way toughness for your build or iron will for mine helps it out! 13 Int is also mandatory for the gillmen version so the stats will have to be adjusted slightly but with all the open feat/talent room I'm sure we can work out something. Let me know what you think sam?
Edit - I think it'd be important to also take dispelling attack, cause I mean, we have the pre reqs so why not? There is something very juicy about touch attack sneak attacks + dispell vs an enemy wizard that makes me very happy inside.
Alignment DR screws everyone who doesn't straight
The only other thing that concerned me about your build (which again, I really do like) is that the sneak attack damage is only applied once after you've moved (I was reading the skirmisher class), so the damage that's getting done is actually really low at about 46 damage on a charge / movement + attack.
With the charge action the sneak attack would be applied to all her attacks at the end of the charge. Skirmisher only applies to the attack action. Granted that might require an FAQ to confirm.
Like I said it's something that could be improved. One level of monk and we're in dragon style territory meaning a strength based build might turn out much stronger.
Oh and one other thing. Feral Combat Training allows those things you mentioned to be applied to claws. :)
You can't get Claw Pounce until 14. It requires BAB 10. It also requires a 13 str, so you'd need an enhancement there as well.Okay then that's not a concern perhaps scout isn't ideal for this build then...You also have two amulets.
It is not the bite a secondary natural attack?
For the record you can take claw pounce at 14th via combat trick. IT's the one and only reason my claw cat took sawshbuckler. I wanted two extra feats and lots of acrobatics.
You can get two feats without swashbuckler, there is an advanced talent.
You can get two feats without swashbuckler, there is an advanced talent.
Well that opens things up further for the build.
Like I said it's a good start and worth developing further.
As to comments about how it shows more about the race than the class? Possibly. But you can also get similiar results with Tieflings, Tengu, or any race you can shove claw attacks on.
Any race can also get claws by dipping 2 levels of ranger with the natural weapon style
Just sayin'
For the record I'm graetly impressed with Yatchi's touch build. I do fear however that the reliance on spell damage+sneak attack may be dropping things a bit low. With no ability score damage or other such damage backing it I'm afraid it falls greatly behind.
This ultimately feels like a secondary option to be used against high DR or high AC opponents with little energy resistance.
So some things we've learned here thus far..
First, Scout is a must for any serious combat rogue. What it provides is just too valuable not to have.
Second, There are plenty of decent ways to deliver sneak attacks from claws, to unarmed, to a variety of weapons. The trick it seems is not somuch the actual method of delivery but getting it to activate (hence scout). To my surprise there are lots of two weapon feinting builds.
About feinting builds: Would it be possible to fit a shield and weapon on these builds? If you're forgoing the first attack could it not be a shield bash? This gives you an increased AC and the option of getting some decent shield focused feats.
Third, there are some solid items that can improve your rogueishness however it seems some of these are quite expensive and take up some slots id rather they didn't.
Fourth, when you squeeze the nonsense out and shoo away the petty arguments it turns out the advice board can be very creative problem solvers. Thanks guys.
For the record I'm graetly impressed with Yatchi's touch build. I do fear however that the reliance on spell damage+sneak attack may be dropping things a bit low. With no ability score damage or other such damage backing it I'm afraid it falls greatly behind.
This ultimately feels like a secondary option to be used against high DR or high AC opponents with little energy resistance.
Who is Yatchi?
The result of my tired add raccoon addled brain, sorry.
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Okay on to Build number.... what am I up to #5?
The Dwarven Whipmaster
Dwarf Fighter 2, Rogue (Scout) 10
Str:22 (+2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex:14 (+2 belt)
Con:18 (+2 race, +2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:10 (+2 race)
Cha:8 (-2 race)
Feats/Talents:
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Power Attack
2: Cleave
3: Great Cleave
4: Offensive Defense
5: Goblin Cleaver
6: Combat Trick(Surprise Follow Through)
7: Orc Hewer
8: Weapon Training (Focus:Whip)
9: Improved Surprise Follow Through
10: Entanglement of Blades
11: Lunge
12: Feat Whip Mastery
Gear:
+3 Scorpion Whip
+3 Full Plate
+3 Heavy Steel Shield
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 cloak of resistance
Whatever else you want
DEFENSES
HP: 120
AC: 31
Fort:+12(14sp) Ref:+12(14sp) Will:+6(8sp)
OFFENSE
BAB: +9/+4
Whip Cleave Attack: +19 (+9 BAB, +6 str, +1 focus, +3 weapon)
Tactics, move to get scout bonus, lunge and cleave. This gives you a reach of 20ft and with a whip you can attack ANY targets inside that reach.
Orc Hewer and great cleave will let you make secondary attacks against any medium or smaller targets within reach, which is a 20ft burst around you. You keep mobility by being able to move before cleaving. Your AC is still a 27 even with lunge and cleave (32 if you land a Sneak).
If you move, your first attack will be +21 vs. dexless AC, for 1d4+9+5d6
If you hit, use improved surprise follow through and keep on cleaving +21 for 1d4+9+5d6
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And for Build #6, the meteor puncher!!
Level 12 Half-Orc (scout/skulking slayer) Rogue
Sacred Tattoo trait of course
Str:24 (+2 race, +2 belt, +3 levels)
Dex:14 (+2 belt)
Con:16 (+2 belt)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10
Feats/Talents:
1: Knockout Artist
2: Ninja Trick (Unarmed Combat Training: Imp Unarmed Strike)
3: Sap Adept
4: Weapon Training (Focus:Unarmed Strike)
5: Sap Master
6: Ninja Trick (Style:Dragon Style)
7: Power Attack
8: Offensive Defense
9: Dazzling Display
10: Combat Trick (Mocking Dance)
11: Performing Combatant
12: Confounding Blades
Gear:
+1 Amulet of Mighty Fists
+2 Brawling Chain Shirt
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Headband of Ninjitsu
+3 cloak of resistance
Circlet of persuasion
Boots of Springing and Striding
Whatever else you want
DEFENSES
HP: 105
AC: 19
Fort:+11 Ref:+14 Will:+8
OFFENSES:
Charge and Punch!!!!
Attack Bonus: +21 (+9 BAB, +7 str, +1 focus, +2 charge, +2 headband, +2 armor, +1 amulet, -3 power attack)
Damage: 1d4+12d8+53 non-lethal (+7 str, +3 dragon style, +6 power attack, +12 knockout artist, +24 sap adept, +12d8 sap master + skulking slayer)
After hitting, make a performance check (activated because of charging) +10 vs. DC 20 (+2 bab, +3 perform ranks, +3 circlet, +2 feat). If successful, you can move up to your speed back away from the target you charged, if you activated Confounding Blades, they can't make an AoO on you. You are reset and ready to charge-punch again!!!
Average damage on a hit = 109.5!!
But its not actually listed in the SRD?
There is no racial Prereq listed for Surprise Follow Through
Beast Rider, yes
Blood Vengeance, yes
Destroyer's Blessing, yes
Ferocious Resolve, yes
Ferocious Summons, yes
Ferocious tenactiy, yes
Gore Fiend, yes
Horde Charge, yes
Resilient Brute, yes
Sympathetic Rage, yes
Tenacious Survivor, yes
Thrill of the Kill, yes
Surprise Follow Through does NOT list a racial requirement
@Nicos: Bite attacks are always primary unless stated otherwise as of the natural weapon rules.
Yeah the amulet of Natural armor would have to go. AC would drop to 23 which is definitely kind of lowish. At level 10 you could prolly afford celestial armor or what it's called which would really up AC.
A few ideas how to improve DPR on my Scary Hairy build.
Brawling armor+Feral Combat Training (Claws) would up DPR by another 10-15 points this could be added at level 10.
A Strength build might also work using demonspawn Tiefling. However the Tiefling would loose out on the awesomeness that is doubled D8 sneak attack dice via vicious claws and Sap Master.
Another option would be to pick up an AC get the AC hooked up with Enforcer/Brawler/Cornugon Smash/or possibly just Dazzling Display as well as outflank. Have it move to flank and scare opponents then go crazy yourself with shatter defense.
Sarf,
How does the Gillmen fair before getting his advanced talents? I like the elf because it can come online at 3rd level and doesn't do too shabby before them either.
What about just plain rouge? Pure Vanilla Rouge? No one?
What about just plain rouge? Pure Vanilla Rouge? No one?
I think most of us don't know much about flavored makeup. :)
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What about just plain rouge? Pure Vanilla Rouge? No one?
Vanilla Rogue is quite MAD in order to be effective at everything he can do.
Simply speaking a Rogue uses his skills for defense and troubleshooting and feats and skills for offense.F.E.
You need maxed out Bluff or/and Intimidate for Feints and demoralizing through "Shattered Defenses". Also you can use offensively the combo of improved disarm & catch off guard.
2 points for Charisma
For defense you need maxed out Sense Motive for defense from Feints, Escape Artist against grapple checks, Acrobatics for maneuvering, fighting defensively and flanking without getting smashed.
1 point for Wisdom
2 points for Dexterity
These are five skills out of the 8 skills per level.
Now throw in some troubleshooting skills
Disable Device (no explanation needed)
Perception (see above)
Use Magic Device (best skill tool ever, damn hard to use properly without focusing on it.)
1 point for Wisdom
1 point for Intelligence
1 point for Charisma
All these without getting any knowledge skills.
So far we have:
2 points for Dexterity
1 point for Intelligence
2 points for Wisdom
3 point for Charisma
Assuming that you will get Improved Feint (unless you don't want to sneak attack higher level Rogues and other opponents with Improved Uncanny Dodge) you will need an Intelligence Score of 13 for Combat Expertise, so that gives you one extra skill point to spent as you like (ignoring favored class and racial bonuses)
Strength related skills are useful since most of them are mobility related but with proper tools and single rank dipping can allow you to not focus on strength, unless you want to play Lara Croft.
So my point is that unless you ignore some capabilities of Rogue (by using archetypes) you will just be moderate compared with a specialist, you know the "Fifth Party Member".
I'll try to make a build for that if you want to sometime later.
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@Scavion - The gillmen is exactly the same as the elf at 3rd level in terms of abilities so I'm not sure if thats what you meant. I'm going to assume you meant 4th, which is when major magic comes online.
At 4th the elf will have 4 uses of chill touch which last 4 rounds a day. He will have an average UMD of +7. The gillmen will have 2 uses of chill touch which last 4 rounds a day, as well he have an average UMD of +8.
At this point, the gillmen will have to continue to rely on weapons, using chill touch to supplement vs tougher opponents.
At 5th Level the elf has 4 uses of chill touch which last 5 rounds a day. He will have an average UMD of +8, the gillmen will have 2 uses of chill touch which last 5 rounds a day. This is where I offer the first deviation in the build. The gillmen rogue is particularly good at UMD, getting their trap sense bonus to it. This is where I recommend taking skill focus (UMD). I believe this is the most optimized point for it. This makes the Gillmens UMD 12, +17 if you can get an early item.
At 6th level the elf has 5 uses of chill touch which last 6 rounds a day. He will have an average UMD of +14 (+5 item). The gillmen will have 2 uses of chill touch which last 6 rounds a day, as well he will have an average UMD of +19.
At this point the gillmen cannot fail with a wand, I recommend using a Wand of Chill Touch CL 3 as a fairly good backup weapon. Using your chill touch for longer, tougher fights, and the wand for lower, easier fights.
At 9th Level the gillmen fails 3rd level scrolls only 10% of the time, the elf still has a 40% chance of failure. In addition to this the elf still has a 10% chance of failing at a wand check.
After 10th we know the gillman will be fine so I just wanted to show you a quick run down of how it would work. Basically what your doing by going the gillman route is trading early game use of chill touch for greater versatility, albeit at the cost of the amazing gold free efficiency that chill touch brings. Even if the elf took skill focus and followed the same route as the gillmen he would fall slightly behind due to the gillmen rogues trap sense bonus to UMD. All in all, both builds are definitely useable sub level 10 (I mean, you can still use weapons remember?) The elf becomes a better, more reliable chill toucher earlier, while the gillmen becomes a better wand/scroll user early. In the end game, both have similar play styles, while the gillman edges out the win vs spell resistant foes and versatility, while the elf edges out the win in 5+ fights per day instances.
Gillman Rogue(SCOUT, Eldritch Raider) 12
(20 Point Build)
STR 10
DEX 18 (+1 4th level, +1 12th level)
CON 14 (+2 Race, +1 8th Level)
INT 14
WIS 10 (-2 Race)
CHA 13 (+2 Race)
The stat spread is very unoptimized. This is intentional, take dump stats where you like and customize further based on your demands.
1. Weapon Finesse
2. Detect Magic Eldritch Raider Ability
3. [open feat] Iron Will
4. Major Magic [Chill Touch]
5. [open feat] Skill Focus (UMD)
6. Offensive Defense
7. [open feat] Skill Focus (Dungeoneering)
8. [open talent] Ninja Trick (Unarmed Strike)
9. [open feat] Eldritch Heritage (Aberrant)
10. Minor Eldritch Magic - Elemental Touch
10. Major Eldritch Magic - Vampiric Touch
11. [open feat] Improved Eldritch Heritage (Aberrant, getting reach)
12. [open talent] Dispelling Attack
1. +1 HP
2. +1 HP
3. +1 HP
4. +1 HP
5. +1/6 Talent
6. +1/6 Talent
7. +1/6 Talent
8. +1/6 Talent
9. +1/6 Talent
10. New Talent
11. +1/6 Talent (or +1 HP for PFS)
12. +1/6 Talent (or +1 HP for PFS)
Items
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 (Assumed for attack purposes)
Melee Touch Attack - +13/+8 7d6 + fort vs -1 str +Dispelling attack or 7d6 + fort vs stagger/sickened/fatigued, or ref vs catch on fire +Dispelling attack
Ranged Touch Attack (Acidic Ray) - +13/+8 7d6+5 +Dispelling attack
Unarmed Strike - +16/+11 1d4+3+Melee Touch Attack dmg/effects
With this recommended build you'd get efficiency with UMD as stated in the beginning of my post. In addition, I've added a number of little "options" I think could be benefical (I was actually hoping for some more input from the builds creator (thats you sam!) The Unarmed Strike ninja trick gives an interesting way to get that extra "OOMPH" out of our attacks against opponents who have a lower AC. Its important to get it this way rather than from weapons because if we have a touch on our hands we wouldn't want to not use it for extra damage in junction with our sneaks. This could potentially net us d4+str+5 enhancement(amulet of mighty fists). Quite a bit of bonus for 1 talent I think. In addition the aberrant bloodline fits amazingly (both fluff and optimization). This gives a way to make ranged touch attacks on demand, as well as a way to give our touch attacks reach. That means that we can stay even further away from the big bads trying to eat us. The only issue being we must use a handband of cha +2 to qualify for the improved version (not really a problem..just saying)
In addition to this something else I'd like to point out - the debuff aspect. Chill touch gives opponents -1 Str if they fail their fort save. If you chose to forgo cha on your rogue in favor of more int, you could definitely get a very respectable fort save dc. Elemental Touch is even better for debuffing, if they fail their fort save you can cause conditions such as staggered, sickened, fatigued, or if you want a ref save, then you can cause on fire. These conditions are not to be ignored, when your attacking for 7d6 (24.5 avg per touch) points of damage as well as a fort save or your staggered? That has HUGE potential, foes will fail eventually, especially since you can hit them multiple times per round.
Finally, we pushed back quicken spell like to level 13. This is so we can put it on elemental touch instead. Giving us the combination of standard action vampiric touch for 12d6 (does this give us 12d6 temp? or 6d6 temp and 6d6 damage)and swift action elemental touch for 7d6 at level 13. Elemental touch being the better spell we'd want quicken spell like here instead of chill touch.
Edit - Down the road you may want to look at maximize spell like ability Vampiric Touch. At 20th level this gives you 60 dmg+10d6 60 temp hitpoints 2/day. While not amazing, in a pinch this could definitely save your character. This is also if the sneak dice doesn't give temp hit points. If they do, then you'd get even more temp hit points from this. Although the sneak dice wouldn't be maximized.
You're correct bigdaddy, my mistake was not adding the roll of 1 to the 19. Thanks, I'll fix it in my post.
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Perhaps a build could be made using a combination of Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and gloves of arcane striking?
I believe a rogue could pull this off perhaps better than a bard due to receiving more feats. While an elf or gnome fighter could also do it, they are usually better off doing damage. Since a rogue struggles with damage but not often with positioning, a Bodyguard build could work.
Something like:
Halfling rogue
Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 9
Alternate Racial Traits Fleet of Foot,
Traits Helpful, Pragmatic Activator
1 Cautious Fighter
2 Finesse Rogue [Weapon Finesse]
3 Blundering Defence
4 Minor Magic (detect magic)
5 Arcane Strike
6 Combat Trick [Combat Reflexes]
7 Bodyguard
8 Major Magic (liberating command)
9 Step-Up
10 Familiar
11 Improved Familiar
12 Improved Evasion
With gloves of arcane striking (5000 gp) and +3 benevolent darkleaf leather armour (9,760 gp), this little guy would be able to use Bodyguard to increase an attacked adjacent ally's AC by +10, and with a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, he could do this eight times per round.
He also has the halfling feats Cautious Fighter and Blundering Defence, allowing him to fight defensively for -4 to his attack rolls but +5 to his AC, and also giving a +2 luck bonus to any adjacent ally's AC. Naturally, a -4 is not really a problem, since he will usually be aiding his allies (AC 10).
Such a build is pretty cool - but why would you build it as rogue? Just because other classes could do more damage is not the best reason to pick a the rogue class. Well, maybe because the party needs a skillmonkey anyway - mhh.
The problem with those builds is the being adjacent part - and the overall usefullness. Im really not sure about that...
Such a build is pretty cool - but why would you build it as rogue? Just because other classes could do more damage is not the best reason to pick a the rogue class. Well, maybe because the party needs a skillmonkey anyway - mhh.
The problem with those builds is the being adjacent part - and the overall usefullness. Im really not sure about that...
eh, youve already gotta talk tactics and positioning with the party for playing a rogue anyway. tacking on adjacent to flanking worries isnt much more of a change.
you could keep the ability for when you think someone will need it--see that ogre giving your wizard the eye? run/acrobatics over and give him a friendly +10AC pat on the back. i see the rogue as an enabler in combat anyway (because throwing down shaken/frightened via intimidate, sickened via thug or cruel enchant, stat damage with pressure points/crippling strike, flat-footedness via feinting makes for some surprisingly helpful debuffing), if only it could boost it's attack (the megapost with various sources for that is much appreciated, btw)
I think the enxt thing I make is going to be a carnivalist.
It occurred to me that a carnivalist can get up to three familiars without dipping. And unless I'm mistaken all of those familiars will have the carnivalists SA progression.
Given the additional benefits all three familiars can provide I think we may ahve a utility build that can continue to deal impressive damage.