Any theories if Strax/gang will be seen with the 13th DR?I extremely doubt it. The Doctor's regenerations frequently are a time of major brush up and reset. The Doctor tends to lose much of his connections with companions and entourages of his prior lives, in many ways he does become a new man, and tends to break his old ties. In fact he never even checked up on his grandaughter Susan, after abandoning her in his first life!.
That might have been true for the old doctor...but in New Who we pretty much saw Jack Harkness and other companions pop up with regularity throughout Davies run. They only stopped being regular when the showrunners changed. I expect Team Strax will also show up with the 13th, especially since they will be keeping the same companion at least for next season.
Any theories if Strax/gang will be seen with the 13th DR?I extremely doubt it. The Doctor's regenerations frequently are a time of major brush up and reset. The Doctor tends to lose much of his connections with companions and entourages of his prior lives, in many ways he does become a new man, and tends to break his old ties. In fact he never even checked up on his grandaughter Susan, after abandoning her in his first life!.
Well, Five did seem very happy to see her in "The Five Doctors" even if he did not seek her out.
We also don't know if there might have been "off screen visits." There's also a matter of not having a Susan story because Carole Ann Ford for many years was unlikely desirous of replaying a part she did not enjoy performing very much.
Certainly the Doctor tends to want to let his past companions get on with their lives, as he gets on with his---but frankly while there are narrative reasons for that, there are also very practical ones.
If Time Lords spent all their time hanging out with the same people, they'd never get anything done ;) IIRC, the same argument was present in DEEP SPACE NINE with the Trills, who had to 'disassociate' themselves from prior ties to avoid the creation of an elite of the elderly.
I thought the reason they had to disassociate was so they would continually gain new experiences?
And, if I recall, they only had to disassociate romantically, they could keep the same group of friends and acquaintances.
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We also don't know if there might have been "off screen visits." There's also a matter of not having a Susan story because Carole Ann Ford for many years was unlikely desirous of replaying a part she did not enjoy performing very much.
Certainly the Doctor tends to want to let his past companions get on with their lives, as he gets on with his---but frankly while there are narrative reasons for that, there are also very practical ones.
Eleven told Jo Grant that during Ten's "farewell tour" he did look in on all his former companions. So off screen visits seem to be a safe bet.
So, my question is: is the Valeyard worth the trouble of explaining through all of this, or is that part of old canon better left forgotten?
Well, he sort of made an appearance as the "Dream Lord" recently. The dark side of the Doctor is a villain on the show, just one that is rather hard to use.
How are you tying the two together?
Both the Valeyard and the Dream Lord are described as originating in the same place: the dark side of the Doctor's own mind. The Valeyard is not described as an actual regeneration: he is something else between the sixth regeneration and the twelfth that really is never adequately explained. Same with the Dream Lord: why did he manifest against the Doctor, Rory, and Amy when he did? Why not before or later? Why only once? There are many questions that have been left unanswered in regards to how the Doctor's dark side manifests itself.
In other words, lot's of room for creative writers!:)
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How are you tying the two together?The Valeyard is something from the Doctor's future, the regeneration of 12 into 13. And I mean Doctor Number 12, i.e. Capatelli.
Based on "Day of the Doctor" the Peter Capaldi Doctor referred to himself as 13. Even if he ends up being called "12" (the "War Doctor" not counting amongst the main ones), he is the 13th (known) form of the Doctor. (Personally, one of the big reasons I really wish they had not introduced the "War Doctor" because it makes referring to who is whom really unncessarily confusing. It was a good story, mind, but I could do without the Doctor's already convoluted history being that much more overly complicated.)
In "The Ultimate Foe" (thanks Vic) the Master describes the Valeyard, as an entity from "somewhere between [the Doctor's] 12th and Final" incarnation.
One possibility is his existence may indeed be accounted for in the Christmas special, since that's when SmithDoc will regenerate, and the Valeyard will be "somewhere between" him and CapalDoc. Or of course, it could be completely ignored.
One could take it to mean that he is a "potential" Doctor -- someone the Doctor COULD become if his timeline went in a certain direction -- after all, time can be rather wibbly wobbly and can thus alter. But his existence was not set in stone -- he is only one possible outcome of many timelines. And indeed, as you note, the events of the Time War could erase this possibility entirely.
Alternately, the Time War might be the whole reason for the Valeyard's existence... why better to try to undo the Doctor and reset his regeneration cycle out of an attempt to thwart the Time War -- you could argue that the first salvo of the Time War was when McCoyDoc blitzed Skaro with the Hand of Omega, so then it makes sense to stop him from coming to be by transferring regeneration away from ColinDoc.
Finally, it is the MASTER who explains the Valeyard's origins, and it is entirely possible he was seriously making some BS up and trying to screw with the Doctor's head, and the Valeyard was just some third rate barrister who genuinely thought the universe would be a better place without the Doctor.
It could be that the Valeyard is the same sort of thing as the Watcher, which was the between regenerations avatar that ultimately saved the Fourth Doctor's life by triggering his regeneration. (The Cubicle 7 RPG used that explanation as to the Valeyard's origin. in the Time Traveler's Companion.)
That's also possible, I agree.
Honestly, I'm okay with the Valeyard never being explained. He exists in a realm of maybes and possibilities and doesn't need to be. At the same time, if they do touch upon his existence and can manage to do so without being too heavy handed with past continuity reference (needs to be something new/young viewers can follow along with), that would be awesome.
Steven Moffat has said he doesn't really understand the Valeyard. In fact, no-one really does: the first writer working on the idea, Robert Holmes, died before he wrote the scripts that would explain what the hell he was, and then the second, Eric Saward, quit the show after a titanic argument with the showrunner and forbade them to use the scripts he'd written. So the whole idea was pulled out of thin air off the cuff, which is why it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.
There is one cheap possibility that I can see working:
The other is that the go with the novels' explanation that the Valeyard's creation was the eventual result of the Sixth Doctor's mental instablity, and the Sixth Doctor's premature regeneration negated the Valeyard from appearing. So now he'll never appear and they don't need to worry about him. Which I'd think was more likely except that a Moffat script mentioned him fairly recently. So either Moffat is lying that he doesn't know what's going on with the Valeyard and is planning to address it, or he said that to troll the fans. Frankly, he's capable of both :)
Based on "Day of the Doctor" the Peter Capaldi Doctor referred to himself as 13.
What part of "Day of the Doctor" are you getting that from? It seemed to me that when we hear the lines, "No, sir. Aagh! All thirteen," that it's one of the timelords in the control room speaking, rather than Capaldi. I could be wrong, though. Just rewatched that moment and it's difficult to tell.
Based on "Day of the Doctor" the Peter Capaldi Doctor referred to himself as 13.What part of "Day of the Doctor" are you getting that from? It seemed to me that when we hear the lines, "No, sir. Aagh! All thirteen," that it's one of the timelords in the control room speaking, rather than Capaldi. I could be wrong, though. Just rewatched that moment and it's difficult to tell.
No, that was Peter Capaldi's official first appearance as the Doctor. When the line comes across the screen, the screen is showing an extreme close up of his face.
Besides, why would they have a line about 13 Doctors unless all 13 were actually there?
And I just realized I spoiled that if anyone hadn't seen it yet. Hopefully they're reading this thread if they have, but sorry...
Based on "Day of the Doctor" the Peter Capaldi Doctor referred to himself as 13.What part of "Day of the Doctor" are you getting that from? It seemed to me that when we hear the lines, "No, sir. Aagh! All thirteen," that it's one of the timelords in the control room speaking, rather than Capaldi. I could be wrong, though. Just rewatched that moment and it's difficult to tell.No, that was Peter Capaldi's official first appearance as the Doctor. When the line comes across the screen, the screen is showing an extreme close up of his face.
Besides, why would they have a line about 13 Doctors unless all 13 were actually there?
And I just realized I spoiled that if anyone hadn't seen it yet. Hopefully they're reading this thread if they have, but sorry...
It's complicated.
The Doctor is a title he gives himself, and it's a title War Doctor relinquished after destroying Galifrey.But someone outside the Doctor's life wouldn't make the distinction and upon seeing 13 individuals, would mistake Capaldi as the 13th Doctor
Based on "Day of the Doctor" the Peter Capaldi Doctor referred to himself as 13.What part of "Day of the Doctor" are you getting that from? It seemed to me that when we hear the lines, "No, sir. Aagh! All thirteen," that it's one of the timelords in the control room speaking, rather than Capaldi. I could be wrong, though. Just rewatched that moment and it's difficult to tell.
Good point about the spoiler.
So:
Sorry, you misunderstood me. Yeah, that was Capaldi's face, and yes, when he appears, he's the new version of the Doctor that we'll get to at the end of the next Christmas special.
But I'm talking about whether he actually referred to himself as "13." I mean the dialogue. They're not actually on Capaldi during those lines. First part of the line, "No, sir!", they're on the timelords. During the second part of the line, "All thirteen!", they're on the shot of the Tardises flying through space. Then they cut to Capaldi's hand, then to Capaldi. The extreme close up comes after the lines, so it's obviously referring to him, but it's not necessarily being said by him.
Like I said, it might be him, but we don't actually see him say the line. I just rechecked, and have the video in front of me right now.
As for why they'd have a line about all 13, it's because 13 is the expected number of regenerations, via the old rules (which the show will presumably break at the end of Capaldi's genre). Time lords expect there to be 12 regenerations, and 13 incarnations, so saying "all 13" of someone being there, particularly in regards to such a prominent time lord as the Doctor, makes sense.
Could be his voice, though. I've listened to it a bunch and I can't tell. And saying he's one of thirteen isn't the same as calling himself "13" in the sense we call Matt Smith "11," Tennant "10," etc.
Edit to add: I think Moffat said somewhere recently, in regards to "The Day of the Doctor," that the Doctor never refers to himself as "Eleven" or "Ten" or whatever, but only thinks of himself as "The Doctor." Since he's showrunner, that's current canon, I guess.
KSF
I see what you're saying. And what _I_ am getting at is that even if he calls himself the 12th Doctor, he is still the 13th incarnation of that Time Lord. So the Valeyard would be "between" him and SmithDoc. That is all.
KSF
** spoiler omitted **
Got it.
Capaldi didn't speak in the special, that was the Time Lord general's subordinate (confirmed by the subtitles).
I think Moffat said somewhere recently, in regards to "The Day of the Doctor," that the Doctor never refers to himself as "Eleven" or "Ten" or whatever, but only thinks of himself as "The Doctor."
Well, that's a lie (Moffat, by his own admission, does that a lot). On Moffat's own watch, Smith calls himself the Eleventh in THE LODGER. When images of his previous selves appeared in that Gaiman Cyberman episode, they also showed him as the eleventh.
Also, showrunners don't get to set DOCTOR WHO canon because they are - relatively - ephemereal. Moffat is the twelfth showrunner in the series' history, and anything he says or does on his watch can be contradicted or changed later on (just as he has contradicted or changed things other people have said).
Everything the show has done indicates David Tennant is '10' and Matt Smith is '11'. Song for Ten on the soundtrack, the hotel room number, the faces of the doctor montages in The Next Doctorand The Eleventh Hour (there's another one)! Any bearing that The Brain of Morbius had on the matter has long since evaporated away.
I can't see nine, ten and eleven being renumbered +1 to take account of The War Doctor. It's just going to make things confusing for non-fans.
Cheers
Mark
Yoda spoke of another...
The other he spoke of was your true 9th incarnation. To protect yourself you forgot about being the War Doctor.
Kthlulhu, see my reply to KSF. I just meant that he acknowledges he is the 13th incarnation, I didn't mean he literally said "I am 13." I have to remember people tend to prefer "RAW" rather than "RAI" on this boards and word things more carefully.
Capaldi didn't speak in the special, that was the Time Lord general's subordinate (confirmed by the subtitles).
Depending on who does the subtitles, they aren't always accurate.
Regardless of who spoke, that was him, and he is identified as the 13th incarnation (regardless of whether he is called the 12th Doctor or not). That's all I was getting at.
Can we all stop nitpicking now? I feel like we are arguing whether something is either green, or a combination of blue and yellow. I am sorry I ever brought it up, I was only trying to note that the Valeyard if he theoretically shows up at all, there is a possibility he would around Smith's regeneration.
Whether they call him 12 or 13 in the series remains to be seen (and by "call him" I mean references like the references referred to above, like SmithDoc noting himself as his 11th incarnation). I am sure they will do whatever they feel makes the most sense.
It's Chris Mortika's fault for mentioning the Valeyard first and therefore bringing up memories the whole sorry mess that is Trial of a Time Lord. Nothing ever good comes of that. :-)
Cheers
Mark
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I have the feeling that 9, 10, 11, and all future Doctors will retain their respective numbers (Capaldi being 12, the next guy being 13, etc). When Hurt's incarnation is spoken of, he will be "the War Doctor".
As for the Valeyard....eh, who knows? The exact origins of the Valeyard were never really pinned down. Maybe after Handy throttles Rose to death, he will escape back into the main universe and assume the identity of the Valeyard.
Also, showrunners don't get to set DOCTOR WHO canon because they are - relatively - ephemereal. Moffat is the twelfth showrunner in the series' history, and anything he says or does on his watch can be contradicted or changed later on (just as he has contradicted or changed things other people have said).
Hence the phrase "current canon," emphasis on "current."
I'm gonna miss Matt Smith's beautifully weird face.
But then he was the Doctor whose seasons I started watching from start to finish. :) Isn't there a saying about your first Doctor tending to be the one closest to your heart?
That is true. Although I expect a lot of people will be surprised to find out that Jon Pertwee was their first Doctor but had their memories steamrollered by the phenomenon that is Tom Baker. Of course then they're thinking of Genesis of the Daleks and Pyramids of Mars rather than The Horns of Nimon and Logopolis.
Cheers
Mark
It's Chris Mortika's fault for mentioning the Valeyard first and therefore bringing up memories the whole sorry mess that is Trial of a Time Lord. Nothing ever good comes of that. :-)
Many WHO fans are still traumatised from that situation. Sometimes saying, "Carrot juice!" to the wrong person can send them into a foaming rage.
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It's Chris Mortika's fault for mentioning the Valeyard first and therefore bringing up memories the whole sorry mess that is Trial of a Time Lord. Nothing ever good comes of that. :-)Many WHO fans are still traumatised from that situation. Sometimes saying, "Carrot juice!" to the wrong person can send them into a foaming rage.
Especially Bonnie Langford and Colin Baker!
Cheers
Mark
Question about the end.
** spoiler omitted **
A while back, I came up with a theory that the Doctor always regenerates into the form of someone he's met. This would explain the resemblance between the sixth Doctor and Commander Maxil, and between the 12th Doctor and Caecilius. It also explains why a particular form is chosen each time out of the seemingly infinite range of possibilities. Sometimes there might be a conscious choice as to the form (as with Romana's regeneration, and when the Time Lords offer the second Doctor a choice of appearance after his enforced "regeneration"), but not always.
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I'm gonna miss Matt Smith's beautifully weird face.
But then he was the Doctor whose seasons I started watching from start to finish. :) Isn't there a saying about your first Doctor tending to be the one closest to your heart?
That is true. Although I expect a lot of people will be surprised to find out that Jon Pertwee was their first Doctor but had their memories steamrollered by the phenomenon that is Tom Baker. Of course then they're thinking of Genesis of the Daleks and Pyramids of Mars rather than The Horns of Nimon and Logopolis.
Cheers
Mark
Amusingly it was Genesis of the Daleks that I saw first on PBS. For some reason I saw Sarah Jane climbing that rocket and was hooked.
Aside, it would be funny if:
I'm gonna miss Matt Smith's beautifully weird face.
But then he was the Doctor whose seasons I started watching from start to finish. :) Isn't there a saying about your first Doctor tending to be the one closest to your heart?
Eccleston for me. He competed with Smith for a while but Smith kind of leaned off in the end. Never saw what a big deal Tennant was in comparison. (Though Tennant had Donna, who to this day is still my favorite Companion.)
That kind of leaves out the explanation for the other nine. :)A while back, I came up with a theory that the Doctor always regenerates into the form of someone he's met. This would explain the resemblance between the sixth Doctor and Commander Maxil, and between the 12th Doctor and Caecilius.Question about the end.
** spoiler omitted **
Offscreen encounters?
Offscreen encounters?A while back, I came up with a theory that the Doctor always regenerates into the form of someone he's met. This would explain the resemblance between the sixth Doctor and Commander Maxil, and between the 12th Doctor and Caecilius.That kind of leaves out the explanation for the other nine. :)
Orthos has it exactly right. After all, we don't get to see much of what the Doctor does. So while his form is always that of someone he's met, it's not generally someone we've seen.
Okay, theory time.
All 13 Doctors appear to time-lock Gallifrey. The High Council, though, needs to find a way to escape the time lock eventually, and so leaves a subtle attack on Eleven, who is orchestrating the whole thing, and who calls Twelve into play. The attack causes the creation of the Valeyard when Eleven regenerates.
The Valeyard's mission is to free Gallifrey. Yes, the Doctor is trying the same thing, but the Valeyard is tasked to do it at any cost. Gallifrey can be freed from the time-lock by sacrificing Earth, and so they and the Valeyard work together to make this happen. Part of that sacrifice involves the transportation of Earth to the far reaches of space, where it becomes Ravolox. The Doctor, of course, would never sacrifice Earth to save Gallifrey, and so has to fight this timeline. However, it is this timeline that ensnares Six, who landed on Ravolox.
The regeneration limit has already got many ways around it, I wouldn't worry about it.
Five Doctors - The Doctor was offered a whole new set of regenerations - so, with restoring and saving the Timelords from obliteration, they could reward him with an unlimited set.
The Trial of a TimeLord - The doctor signs an agreement to give his remaining regenerations - so now we know that TimeLords can gift their remaining regenerations should they so choose. Having saved a planets worth of time lords, some may choose to gift the Doctor in this way.
The Master - Keeper of Traken, takes ownership of another humanoid, not even a Time Lord, but it allows him past the regeneration limit. So who's to say a companion or third party doesn't save the word by giving up their life for the Doctor. Probably the least likely route, but it is an option.
And for one wacky regeneration idea - David Tennent poured the energy of a regeneration into his hand, creating the duplicate. The duplicate could be a vessel to allow Tennant to return to the role as a new Doctor who has all his regenerations ahead of him - very very unlikely, but who knows what the future will bring.
And that's just the ones I can recall, so the limit already has the ground work to be broken, but knowing the writers, they will come up with something amazing I am sure.
So I wouldn't worry, our show is certainly going to continue a while longer yet.
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Or the universe may simply decide it cannot be without the Doctor, and the cosmic forces of the universe themselves lets him regenerate beyond his allotted amount.
The only "drawback" is he becomes Joanna Lumley, which of course isn't a drawback at all. :)
(<pedant>Also, it was the Master who was offered a new lifecyle of regenerations in the "Five Doctors"</pedant> :) )
Also, the thing about "Handy" is he's only got one heart and likely other limited capabilities. In fact I think the whole reason he can settle down with Rose is that he's only got one life to live.
But yes, if the Doctor needs to regenerate again, the show will find a way. Not really going to worry about it until it happens.
So it can torture him some more, no doubt.Or the universe may simply decide it cannot be without the Doctor, and the cosmic forces of the universe themselves lets him regenerate beyond his allotted amount.
Possibly, but mostly to give him etheric beam locators.
