Day of the Doctor (50th anniversary special)


Television

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Werthead wrote:
In addition, the Master's breaking of the limit is fully explained: he didn't. His first body reached its 13th incarnation, failed its regeneration and he only survived as a broken, withered husk which died after a few years, but he merged with Tremas and stole his body. THAT body, which had no pre-existing regeneration cycle, was offered a new set of regenerations in THE FIVE DOCTORS.

While he was offered that, it's not clear he received it. (It's also not clear it matters.)

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LazarX wrote:
The Doctors don't refer to themselves by number.

Numbering aside, there have been several "let's review all of the Doctors" moments in the new series (among others, the Journal of Impossible Things in Human Nature, and a visual recap in The 11th Hour), and none of them includes...

Spoiler:
...this "War Doctor" fellow.

That needs some 'splainin.


Easiest explanation: The "War Doctor" exists entirely within the period covered by the "time lock" on the War. So even though the Doctor escaped, he regenerated into Nine during the war, and thus nothing about the "War Doctor" persona escaped the lock.

IF this is correct, the War Doctor's presence in Day of the Doctor would then suggest the lock is gone. This would probably be bad.

Grand Lodge

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Vic Wertz wrote:
Werthead wrote:
In addition, the Master's breaking of the limit is fully explained: he didn't. His first body reached its 13th incarnation, failed its regeneration and he only survived as a broken, withered husk which died after a few years, but he merged with Tremas and stole his body. THAT body, which had no pre-existing regeneration cycle, was offered a new set of regenerations in THE FIVE DOCTORS.
While he was offered that, it's not clear he received it. (It's also not clear it matters.)

The Master in Tremas' body was incinerated in the Flames of Sarn. He got better. He came back from being a puddle of goo in the Fox movie. He purposely denied regeneration. (which suggest that by either the Time Lords or another agency the John Simms Master DID have another set of regenerations available to him, but he chose cremation knowing that he had a way out of even THAT.

And given that the rest of the Time Lords are history, it's become a very moot point. The Doctor's been violating rules since he first stole the TARDIS.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

LazarX wrote:
The Master in Tremas' body was incinerated in the Flames of Sarn. He got better.

Good point... but he also came back in the same body. That doesn't mean it *wasn't* a regeneration, but it also doesn't make it obvious that it was.

LazarX wrote:
He came back from being a puddle of goo in the Fox movie.

I can't even pretend to begin to hypothesize what the heck that was.

Shadow Lodge

You mean you don't like Time Lords as symbiotic snakes?

Grand Lodge

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Vic Wertz wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Master in Tremas' body was incinerated in the Flames of Sarn. He got better.

Good point... but he also came back in the same body. That doesn't mean it *wasn't* a regeneration, but it also doesn't make it obvious that it was.

The Master, unlike the Doctor has perfect control over his regenerations, so he kept comeing back in the same body at least in the early years or when he deliberately decided to change such as when he took on the Professor and Saxon forms.


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LazarX wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Master in Tremas' body was incinerated in the Flames of Sarn. He got better.

Good point... but he also came back in the same body. That doesn't mean it *wasn't* a regeneration, but it also doesn't make it obvious that it was.

The Master, unlike the Doctor has perfect control over his regenerations, so he kept comeing back in the same body at least in the early years or when he deliberately decided to change such as when he took on the Professor and Saxon forms.

No he doesn't! We've only seen the Master regenerate once - Derek Jacobi into John Simms. After Roger Delgado we saw Peter Pratt and Geoffrey Beavers - both the emaciated, decaying Master. Antony Ainley's version was the stolen body of Tremas (a Trakenite, not a Time Lord). There is absolutely no indication that the Master had an off screen death and regenerated into an exact duplicate of himself. What the Master seems very good at is extending his life by means other than regeneration.

Cheers
Mark

The Exchange

Chris Kenney wrote:

Easiest explanation: The "War Doctor" exists entirely within the period covered by the "time lock" on the War. So even though the Doctor escaped, he regenerated into Nine during the war, and thus nothing about the "War Doctor" persona escaped the lock.

IF this is correct, the War Doctor's presence in Day of the Doctor would then suggest the lock is gone. This would probably be bad.

That Time locks already been breached at least twice (three time if we include that anomaly in the Dr's grave.) The writers could have it fail pretty much however and whenever they want.


Vic Wertz wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Doctors don't refer to themselves by number.

Numbering aside, there have been several "let's review all of the Doctors" moments in the new series (among others, the Journal of Impossible Things in Human Nature, and a visual recap in The 11th Hour), and none of them includes... ** spoiler omitted **

That needs some 'splainin.

I would say that the Doctor so was keen to forget about it that after the transformation to human it was blocked from even his sub-conscious.

Cheers
Mark


Quote:
While he was offered that, it's not clear he received it.

He didn't. Borusa promised the set after the Master completed the mission, which the Master failed and then Borusa was turned into stone anyway. Later on, the Master is still talking about needing to steal the Doctor's regenerations, find another way of regenerating (in the TV movie, especially).

But given his new Jacobi/Simm body, it's a moot point now anyway :)


MAJOR SPOILER. Well, maybe not that major. But still.

Spoiler:
Tom Baker confirms that he has recorded a voice-over and will 'appear' in some fashion in the special via manipulation of old footage.

David Tennant introduces the 50th Anniversary special with a note on budget limitations :)


Fascinating behind the scenes special on casting calls, regenerations, DR costume selections, voice of daleks, behind the scenes stuff etc. I hope they do more of these

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wicked cool wrote:
Fascinating behind the scenes special on casting calls, regenerations, DR costume selections, voice of daleks, behind the scenes stuff etc. I hope they do more of these

Agreed. Of course I had to sadly laugh at Colin Baker's costume story. The more I hear, the more I realized he got screwed royally. Sylvester McCoy's story about the hat was funny too.

And nothing beats "Look at the little robot dog reading the post crossword!"


Its 2 bad Tom Baker didnt do more acting after DR WHO. He would have been great as a comedian/storyteller etc. I find his storys about Who to be great and even at his age hes got more acting in him. One of a select few male actors that i would want to have a pint with or talk to.

Would love to see him on a panel next to Shatner or even a skit with
Big Bang Theory guest spot would be great as well

Back on topic it looks like theres another new mini episode released last night

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

wicked cool wrote:
Its 2 bad Tom Baker didnt do more acting after DR WHO.

He did: Tom Baker on IMDB. He's also reprised his role as the Doctor for some of the Big Finish audio dramas.

Shadow Lodge

I think one of the curses of playing the Doctor is that, no matter what role you are playing, you are "that guy who was a Doctor Who". I mean, even Paul McGan got that, and he only played the role for about 90 minutes or so.

Grand Lodge

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Kthulhu wrote:
I think one of the curses of playing the Doctor is that, no matter what role you are playing, you are "that guy who was a Doctor Who". I mean, even Paul McGan got that, and he only played the role for about 90 minutes or so.

That's because in America he's otherwise an absolute unknown. In Britain on the other hand, Catherine Tate on the other hand had quite an established career before and after Who. So did Eccleston and Hartnell.

Shadow Lodge

I'm not really talking about companions, more the actual actors who played the Doctor. Eccleston probably less with many of the others because he was already decently famous before he became the Doctor. Hartnell was well before my time, but there wan't much chance for anyone to see him in something to say "that's the guy that was the Doctor", as he only appeared in a few one-off episodes of a few shows after leaving Doctor Who. So in the days before reruns and VHS/DVDs, probably not a lot was seen of him afterwards.


Well that is the nature of this genre. Wherever you go there will be the Star Trek/Star Wars/Doctor Who/Battlestar Galactica fans.

But re: the Doctor - Peter Davison and Patrick Troughton have had substantial careers outside of Doctor Who, before and after. William Hartnell was of course a major british movie star before Who and John Pertwee was a big radio personality.

Cheers
Mark

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Lis Sladded remarked in her autobigraphy that she just went on, because she had no idea how big Who was outside the UK. There's even a picture of her on another kids show post Who and the comment reads, "Could you imagine Billie Piper or Karen Gillian doing this?"


For those with time to kill, there's a Doctor Who banner game over at google.

Liberty's Edge

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Vic Wertz wrote:
LazarX wrote:
The Doctors don't refer to themselves by number.

Numbering aside, there have been several "let's review all of the Doctors" moments in the new series (among others, the Journal of Impossible Things in Human Nature, and a visual recap in The 11th Hour), and none of them includes... ** spoiler omitted **

That needs some 'splainin.

Vic,

I believe the explaination so far goes along the lines of "John Hurt isn't the Doctor", by which I presume it means that, in the same way people often insist that those who commit horrific acts aren't "Real Americans/Christians/Muslims/British/etc", the Doctor considers the acts taken while John Hurt so horrific that he has excised him from his mental map of who the Doctor is. John Hurt was a regeneration, but he was most empahtically not, to the Doctor, ever the Doctor.

All those mentalisms showed the history of The Doctor, something he doesn't apply to the John Hurt regeneration.

Or something like that.


Quote:
I think one of the curses of playing the Doctor is that, no matter what role you are playing, you are "that guy who was a Doctor Who"

To some extent. It's a career-highlighting role for many actors because it is such a big deal. That's not to say they haven't done good work before or after (pretty much all of them have), but when you're playing a British institution it's of course going to be extra-notable.

Having said that, Hartnell was a minor British movie star before WHO (with critical kudos for A SPORTING LIFE); Troughton became a well-regarded and reliable comedic and dramatic actor with numerous well-received roles, the last of them in THE BOX OF DELIGHTS; Pertwee was a hugely famous radio sitcom star in the 1960s and later starred in the kids' show WORZEL GUMMIDGE, which was huge in the UK (and I believe Australia) in the 1980s; Tom Baker starred in RASPUTIN and SINBAD before the role (the stuff about him being really obscure is an exaggeration, at best) and has done the voice-overs for LITTLE BRITAIN afterwards, as well as adopting a Shatner-esque, self-deprecating personality; Davison was massively popular in ALL CREATURES GREAT AND SMALL and later a mainstay of 1990s and 2000 ITV drama shows (most recently LAW AND ORDER: UK); Colin Baker was briefly big in a TV show called BROTHERS, but has mostly been on stage since leaving the role; Sylvester McCoy was a big kids' TV presenter and performer in the 1970s and 1980s and is now in the HOBBIT trilogy; and Paul McGann had a number of dramatic roles in the 1980s and 1990s (including in ALIEN 3) and has done a lot of work on stage and screen since.

Of all the Doctors, probably Hartnell, Pertwee, Davison and Eccleston were the most famous when they took the role. Of them all, probably Troughton, Pertwee and Davison had the most successful post-WHO careers. The two Bakers probably suffered the most from their time on WHO (Tom from typecasting, Colin from being fired and perceived as unpopular, which wasn't really the case).

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wicked cool wrote:
Its 2 bad Tom Baker didnt do more acting after DR WHO.

Vic already noted he has indeed done more acting, but I just wanted to add his role in it is one of the only reasons to actually watch the Dungeons and Dragons movie.

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Kthulhu wrote:
Hartnell was well before my time, but there wan't much chance for anyone to see him in something to say "that's the guy that was the Doctor", as he only appeared in a few one-off episodes of a few shows after leaving Doctor Who. So in the days before reruns and VHS/DVDs, probably not a lot was seen of him afterwards.

Not a lot of Hartnell was seen after Doctor Who because his health was deteriorating due to arteriosclerosis, which is why he left the show halfway through a season. His declining health is also why he is only seen in pre-recorded sequences in "The Three Doctors," so he could do it seated and reading from cue cards.

As noted, he had a healthy acting career before and it only ended due to his illness.

Shadow Lodge

Yes, I am aware. Which is why I was saying that he wasn't really a great counterpoint to my argument.


AN ADVENTURE IN SPACE AND TIME was superb. David Bradley's performance as William Hartnell was absolutely astonishing, the rest of the cast was great (maybe not so much Reece Shearsmith as Patrick Troughton, but he was hardly in it), the attention to detail was brilliant (right down to some of the first story Daleks having differently-coloured eyepieces) and it was mostly very accurate, with a few changes for the sake of clarity. The cameos from old-school WHO actors were also quite nice (especially Jean Marsh on the recreation of the TARDIS set where she used to work in the 1960s).

The final cameo worked quite well. I know some people found it taking them out of the show, but I thought it was a nice way of linking the past and present of the show.


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Just over 7 hours to the UK broadcast.

I can't wait.


What's this show everyone is talking about?

Is it some kind of medical drama? I like Grey's Anatomy.


Werthead wrote:

AN ADVENTURE IN SPACE AND TIME was superb. David Bradley's performance as William Hartnell was absolutely astonishing, the rest of the cast was great (maybe not so much Reece Shearsmith as Patrick Troughton, but he was hardly in it), the attention to detail was brilliant (right down to some of the first story Daleks having differently-coloured eyepieces) and it was mostly very accurate, with a few changes for the sake of clarity. The cameos from old-school WHO actors were also quite nice (especially Jean Marsh on the recreation of the TARDIS set where she used to work in the 1960s).

The final cameo worked quite well. I know some people found it taking them out of the show, but I thought it was a nice way of linking the past and present of the show.

It spoiled it a little for me really.

Deadlock sealed:
It was sweet in itself, and looked as if Hartnell was at peace with his departure,looking ahead to an intact legacy. But it clashed with the feeling generated by the policeman he encountered (on the way home from filming his final scene, maybe) telling him he was 'in the way' and had to 'move on'. I was struck with how his grumpiness was put into context - unhappy that colleagues who had become friends had all left and he was stuck with a whole new production crew who felt differently than he did - in this case they didn't give a s***. Tom Baker must have felt the same at the end.

...but I can forgive them the indulgence.

Cheers
Mark


The scene with the policeman was right after Bill learned he was getting sacked; the scene in the Tardis set occurs later, on the last day of his filming ''Tenth Planet", after the initial shock has waned a bit..


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Day of The Doctor...

Brilliant.

So. Damn. Brilliant.

Enjoy it when you see it, world. It's WELL worth it.


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That was worth the hype and then some...


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Splendid indeed


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Sand shoes and Grandpa.

Chinny.

And it's so hard not to spoiler, but... Oh. My. God. I'm going to watch it again after I finish watching the afterparty.

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Was the Doctor wearing kind of a brown coat?

SPOILERS:
He also has a girl in a box. A lot.

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SmiloDan wrote:

Was the Doctor wearing kind of a brown coat?

** spoiler omitted **

I don't get it.

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GeraintElberion wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Was the Doctor wearing kind of a brown coat?

** spoiler omitted **

I don't get it.

It's a Firefly reference.


Day of the Doctor

Spoiler:
(edited, slightly reworded) Okay, if that was Gallifrey, where the heck was Timothy Dalton/'Rassilon'? As far as I could make out, there were scenes with some generals in some sort of command bunker, but no sign of the lord-president. And I thought part of the reason The Doctor was supposed to have nixed his own people in the first place was because they had become in many senses as bad as the daleks. Or when the universe was rebooted due to the Pandorica business, did they all become soft and fluffy again and Rassilon was retroactively erased from the business?


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Day of the Doctor** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

As they're entering the war room, you hear the line "The high council is in emergency session, they have plans of their own." Presumably that is Rassilon attempting his plan with The Master, "The Drums", and the White-Point Star.

As for how The Doctor feels about Gallifrey, and why he was willing (at the time) to destroy it - his attitude was more towards the ruling classes that were fighting the war (and the fact they'd used all of those forbidden weapons in the conflict), and knew that destroying both sides would save the rest of the galaxy from being destroyed in the crossfire. Later, he felt the guilt of destroying the entire planet including all of the innocents.

Liberty's Edge

Awesome episode; definitely lived up to my expectations.


Matt Thomason wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Day of the Doctor** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Ah, missed the comment about the council and session. Still, even if The Doctor managed to trick the daleks into blowing one another up by removing the planet they were aiming at (and I'd be surprised if the daleks managed to 'accidentally' completely annihilate each other, though that could explain the 'survivors' that kept turning up through the Eccleston/Tennant/Smith eras) Rassilon in theory is still there as what TV Tropes would call 'sealed evil in a can', along with the 'innocents'. Unless the reality reset erased Rassilon and his supporters (but not the rest), if The Doctor ever goes looking for Gallifrey, he is also looking by definition for Rassilon, and looking to let him out. Rassilon (if he's been time-locked) has no reason not to be every bit as bad as at the moment the war ended - since from his perspective it will have only just ended. (And since the daleks are still around, Rassilon would still have good grounds to push through any 'wipe out of the rest of the universe to save the time-lords' policy.)
The Exchange

Spoiler:
Unless they decide that the Master managed to off Rassilon, but either way it makes for some interesting options, how to retrieve Gallifrey without having the Time Lords go all lets destroy the universe again.


Regarding how this episode fits in with the END OF TIME:

Spoiler:
The High Council and Rassilon begin their crazy white star/drums plan. Then the Hurt Doctor finds the Moment, which is reported to Rassilon and convinces him to move quickly. That whole thing happens in a blink of an eye and the Master attacks/kills the High Council (or is trying to). Then the planet is rescued by the Doctors and transported out of time and space.

So when they find Gallifrey, Rassilon can still be alive, or have been killed by the Master (who may have been injured in the process and regenerated, if John Simm didn't want to come back) or pretty much anything they want.

The biggest inconsistency to me:

Spoiler:
The Time Lords supposedly went all a bit mad, but whilst Rassilon and some of the other Council members clearly did, the generals all seem pretty reasonable.


Very enjoyable. There were some bits that didn't hit home for me but very minor ones:

Time Locked:
The fact that the Doctor didn't actually press the button cheapens the whole concept of the anguish of the Doctors up to that point.
The Doctor spends his retirement as the curator of the National Art Gallery, reusing old faces?
Having all the Doctor's turn up to save Gallifrey was kinda cool - but I hate cut 'n' pasting scenes from old shows pretending they're new - sometimes you have to accept some people have gone.

But having said all that I loved: The Black Archive; The Cromer files; the Gallifrey scenes; the Doctor's brilliant plan to break out of an unlocked door; hearing Tennent era music in the 1500s; the Tennent era TARDIS (which I thought had been dismantled).

So: A-

Cheers
Mark


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Anyone else wishing we could see a bit more of John Hurt as The Doctor during the war?

The Exchange

Watched first 30 minutes... and I am not sure I can find it within myself to watch the rest.

What I was most excited about for this episode was the return of 10. I never watched the old show, but from the 3 newest doctors, he was by far my favorite.

What I got was NOTHING like 10. The peace loving adventurer of endless wonder was turned into a matt smith clone.

Compare 10's reaction when he meets his "future self" in "The Next Doctor" - that dazzling smile, thinking the man was brilliant for constructing a makeshift "TARDIS"... There was a very real and powerful feeling of wonder.

And now? he meets his new self an immediately becomes competitive. Because if Mofat can have a word on the subject, the Doctor is kind of a jerk. Also a womanizer, apparently. The man who loved Rose, and who couldn't find love for Martha, and who always treated his companions as fellow adventurers, is now rescuing such a stupid version of the queen of England that had the historical figure resembled the one in the show even a little bit, surely that country would have collapsed. Instead of having fun and rescuing humans, 10 is now a selfish, annoying man with a superiority complex.

If it would have been the Tennanet of season 4, he wouldn't have GONE ON A FREAKING DATE with an evil shapeshifter, he would have tried to find out what the shape shifter did to the queen*. Had he been the Doctor he was 3 seasons ago, he wouldn't have blurted his list of titles (NONE of which the original 10 was proud of) at fluffy wood animals.

It was frankly plain and simple awful for me to watch. I think the last vastige of hope I had for the show is gone, and I will probably wait out the rest of the Mofat era. It's just too much for me to take.

* I know, the shape shifter was the horse, but the Doctor didn't know it at the time.


Wow you should have seen the old Five Doctors - they bickered and competed all the way through.

3, 4, 5, and 7 are my favourite Doctors having watched the show from when I was 3 years old.

I like the new Doctors but I miss 3 and Jo a lot.

It was a great show but I think it's time Moffat took a rest.


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Lord Snow wrote:

Watched first 30 minutes... and I am not sure I can find it within myself to watch the rest.

What I was most excited about for this episode was the return of 10. I never watched the old show, but from the 3 newest doctors, he was by far my favorite.

What I got was NOTHING like 10. The peace loving adventurer of endless wonder was turned into a matt smith clone.

I don't know, he seemed like 10 to me. I was quite happy to have him back (as he's my favorite).

Spoiler:

The bit with the Queen: I was under the impression that he wasn't 100% certain about her until the date itself. Probably had suspicions prior to that, so he's trying to catch her out.

The competition with 11: The Doctor being competitive with himself, and somewhat short with himself (whenever he runs into another regeneration) is somewhat of a Who anniversary episode tradition. (See "The Three Doctors," for example.) Given that the whole special is full of nods to the history of the show, I actually expected this. The way things went in "Time Crash" was kind of an exception.

Lord Snow wrote:
Because if Mofat can have a word on the subject, the Doctor is kind of a jerk. Also a womanizer, apparently.

I'm not sure I'm getting a sense of him being a womanizer here (particularly if he's trying to get her to reveal herself). It's just building off of the end of "The Shakespeare Code."

And keep in mind that Moffat was one of the writers for 10, and wrote some of his best episodes. I guess one could argue that RT Davies (whose era I prefer) had some sort of ameliorating influence on Moffat's 10-era scripts, but I think you're being too hard on Moffat here. (I say that as someone who is generally not a huge fan of Moffat's tenure as showrunner.)

Lord Snow wrote:
Instead of having fun and rescuing humans, 10 is now a selfish, annoying man with a superiority complex.

That's definitely not the impression I got.

Anyways, if you don't watch the whole thing, I think you'll miss out on some very 10 moments.

For me, this restored my faith in the show, after having been increasingly underwhelmed by the Moffat era. I'm now actually looking forward to the Christmas special, and to the advent of 12.

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