Day of the Doctor (50th anniversary special)


Television

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The overall villain (common theme) of Dr Who seems to be tyranny in any form, for any reason. He hates it, Precious.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Had a thought about the 4th Doctor's appearance ant the end of "Day of the Doctor".

No Time Lord has ever been shown die a natural death.
My thought is that when a Time Lord reaches the end of his (or her) final incarnation (with the exception being where special circumstances have had granted additional regenerations beyond the twelve) a Time Lord's appearance regresses backwards through his previous incarnations.
As the Time Lord is an elderly person, all his regresssive appearances will reflect that.
As this regression could take time (say a week per incarnation) the Time Lord could reflect on the things that incarnation did.
The Doctor, being who he is, would not sit idly while this is happening. He would get in his TARDIS and visit himself and give advice where needed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's pretty much spelled out. The Curator is simply going back and deliberately choosing his favored faces. Apparantly he's learned the Tailored Regeneration knack mastered by Romana.

And Time Lords DO age within regenerations, if the incarnations actually live long enough.

It may also be that appearing as an older man suits the chosen role of the incarnation. The TimeLord formerly known as the Doctor has met enough curators in his life to fixate them as older people.

And again, the Curator himself may have been nothing more than part of the Doctor's waking dream. We'll never know the true story about it.

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If that were true, Charles, we would have seen Eleven start to regress as he was at the end of his lifespan and dying of old age.

Honestly, all due respect, but my thought on Tom Baker's appearance in "Day of the Doctor" is they said, "Hey, we should probably include the oldest living actor to play the Doctor somehow, let's write him in a suitably mysterious way." And that's about it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:

If that were true, Charles, we would have seen Eleven start to regress as he was at the end of his lifespan and dying of old age.

Honestly, all due respect, but my thought on Tom Baker's appearance in "Day of the Doctor" is they said, "Hey, we should probably include the oldest living actor to play the Doctor somehow, let's write him in a suitably mysterious way." And that's about it.

Not just the oldest living actor, the one who pretty much introduced the show to American audiences of my generation. For a whole age segment, Tom Baker WAS their first Doctor.

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LazarX wrote:
For a whole age segment, Tom Baker WAS their first Doctor.

Not to disregard your reverence for him (I love Tom Baker too), but that could be said for all of the Doctors. :) (And Three through current for American audiences.)

Speaking as an American, I somehow doubt the British writers actually care too much about who was first for Americans of a certain age.

Again, this is not to dismiss or discount your own regard for the man, but I doubt it was part of their own motivations for asking him to appear. :)


Charles Scholz wrote:
No Time Lord has ever been shown die a natural death.

The First Doctor more or less died a natural death.

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KSF wrote:
Charles Scholz wrote:
No Time Lord has ever been shown die a natural death.
The First Doctor more or less died a natural death.

That was my first reaction too, but I think what he meant was after all regenerations were used up -- actually dying a natural death, not triggering a regeneration. Most on-screen Time Lord deaths (not regeneration triggers) were usually with weapons whose use prevented regeneration.


DeathQuaker wrote:
KSF wrote:
Charles Scholz wrote:
No Time Lord has ever been shown die a natural death.
The First Doctor more or less died a natural death.
That was my first reaction too, but I think what he meant was after all regenerations were used up -- actually dying a natural death, not triggering a regeneration. Most on-screen Time Lord deaths (not regeneration triggers) were usually with weapons whose use prevented regeneration.

Ah, okay, that's an interesting idea then.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Since you reject my first, here is another hypothesis.

Based on Romana's regeneration to look like Princess Astra, Time Lords can regenerate to look like other people either consciously or subconsciously. Also, at the end of The War Games the Second Doctor is shown many faces by the Time Lords he can regenerate into.

Examples:
Second Doctor looked like Salamander from Enemy of the World.
Sixth Doctor looked like Commander Maxil from Arc of Infinity.
Twelfth Doctor looks like Caecilius from The Fires of Pompei.

A Time Lord sees many people in their lifetime, both in travels or through studying at at the Acadamy on Galifrey. One of his first three incarnations could have met the curator while visiting the museum.

Shadow Lodge

Pretty sure someone suggested that exact thing a few pages back. Or in the other DW thread.


Charles Scholz wrote:

Since you reject my first, here is another hypothesis.

Based on Romana's regeneration to look like Princess Astra, Time Lords can regenerate to look like other people either consciously or subconsciously. Also, at the end of The War Games the Second Doctor is shown many faces by the Time Lords he can regenerate into.

Examples:
Second Doctor looked like Salamander from Enemy of the World.
Sixth Doctor looked like Commander Maxil from Arc of Infinity.
Twelfth Doctor looks like Caecilius from The Fires of Pompei.

A Time Lord sees many people in their lifetime, both in travels or through studying at at the Acadamy on Galifrey. One of his first three incarnations could have met the curator while visiting the museum.

That's certainly a possibility.

(Now I'm wondering if the Doctor, in his Fourth incarnation, used to watch "All Creatures Great and Small.")

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charles Scholz wrote:

Since you reject my first, here is another hypothesis.

Based on Romana's regeneration to look like Princess Astra, Time Lords can regenerate to look like other people either consciously or subconsciously. Also, at the end of The War Games the Second Doctor is shown many faces by the Time Lords he can regenerate into.

Examples:
Second Doctor looked like Salamander from Enemy of the World.
Sixth Doctor looked like Commander Maxil from Arc of Infinity.
Twelfth Doctor looks like Caecilius from The Fires of Pompei.

A Time Lord sees many people in their lifetime, both in travels or through studying at at the Acadamy on Galifrey. One of his first three incarnations could have met the curator while visiting the museum.

Romana's trick was rare, definitely uncommon. Also she actually was able to physically try out a few bodies (along with costume changes!) without using regenerations on each one. (at least I hope so, I'd hate to think she was THAT much of a fruitcake) Three's appearance was inflicted upon him when the Time Lords said "Times Up!" Borusa apprantly had a bad regeneration or two, and most Time Lord Nobles seem to regenerate into older men because of their rigid static mindsets. The Doctor may be one of those Time Lords who's particularly bad at regeneration. He's needed assists on quite a few, his Third, Fourth, and Eighth. And he's never really gotten the appearance he wanted. Capaldi's still not ginger!


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I stated in another thread that some Time Lords use projection regeneration to control their appearance. K'anpo, the Doctor's old mentor from Gallifrey, uses this method. They create a projection of what they want to look like and then merge with that image when regenerating. This appears to have a great number of advantages over emergency regeneration, not the least of which is little to no regeneration crisis.

This is what I believe Romana was doing in Destiny of the Daleks. The 4th Doctor tries it himself when the cloister bell rings and he knows that he may have to regenerate soon in Logopolis. He shows that he really doesn't know what he is doing with it, as the Watcher is neither able to communicate with anyone or even look like a completely whole person.

And consequently has one of the worst regeneration crises ever.


Feros wrote:

I stated in another thread that some Time Lords use projection regeneration to control their appearance. K'anpo, the Doctor's old mentor from Gallifrey, uses this method. They create a projection of what they want to look like and then merge with that image when regenerating. This appears to have a great number of advantages over emergency regeneration, not the least of which is little to no regeneration crisis.

This is what I believe Romana was doing in Destiny of the Daleks. The 4th Doctor tries it himself when the cloister bell rings and he knows that he may have to regenerate soon in Logopolis. He shows that he really doesn't know what he is doing with it, as the Watcher is neither able to communicate with anyone or even look like a completely whole person.

And consequently has one of the worst regeneration crises ever.

While I can go along with the idea that a deliberate regeneration can be controlled (particularly after considering K'Anpo and Romana) I don't thing the Watcher was a projection by Fourth. The Cloister Bell doesn't neccesarily mean "Danger: Regeneration Approaching!". It was the appreance of the Watcher that tips off Fourth that time was nearlt up. And the Watcher does communicate - the Doctor goes over for a litle chat. What the Watcher seems to be is a projection of Fifth into the past...

Cheers
Mark

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mark Norfolk wrote:
Feros wrote:

I stated in another thread that some Time Lords use projection regeneration to control their appearance. K'anpo, the Doctor's old mentor from Gallifrey, uses this method. They create a projection of what they want to look like and then merge with that image when regenerating. This appears to have a great number of advantages over emergency regeneration, not the least of which is little to no regeneration crisis.

This is what I believe Romana was doing in Destiny of the Daleks. The 4th Doctor tries it himself when the cloister bell rings and he knows that he may have to regenerate soon in Logopolis. He shows that he really doesn't know what he is doing with it, as the Watcher is neither able to communicate with anyone or even look like a completely whole person.

And consequently has one of the worst regeneration crises ever.

While I can go along with the idea that a deliberate regeneration can be controlled (particularly after considering K'Anpo and Romana) I don't thing the Watcher was a projection by Fourth. The Cloister Bell doesn't neccesarily mean "Danger: Regeneration Approaching!". It was the appreance of the Watcher that tips off Fourth that time was nearlt up. And the Watcher does communicate - the Doctor goes over for a litle chat. What the Watcher seems to be is a projection of Fifth into the past...

Perhaps from when Five was meditating in the Zero Room... (before it was jettisoned, of course)

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Watch the extras on Time of the Doctor DVD. Saw something that may or may not be an easter egg in Day of the Doctor. They showed a clip form the first Christmas Special.

The three Doctors and Clara are in the Undergallery drinking tea. War Doctor says they may never know if they succeeded and Clara says "Life and soul you are."
This harks back to when the Tenth Doctor come out of the TARDIS on the Sycarax ship. He is rambling about what kind of person he is (I think he was distracting them while he annalyzed the situation and coming up with a plan to defeat them) and he says he could be the "life and soul."


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This story about Peter Jackson may interest some of you.

Scarab Sages

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DigitalMage wrote:
Shadowstar wrote:
Just to add to the numbering confusion caused by the war doctor's existence Steven Moffat has apparently said, in an interview about the christmas special, that Matt Smith is actually the 13th Doctor.

And another interview apparently reports that Moffatt confirms he is the 11th Doctor.

I think what is being said is that Matt Smith's Doctor is the 11th incarnation that calls himself "The Doctor" (Hurt's War Doctor never referred to himself as The Doctor) but that he has used up his 12 regenerations:

Regeneration 1 - 1st Doctor to 2nd Doctor
Regeneration 2 - 2nd Doctor to 3rd Doctor
Regeneration 3 - 3rd Doctor to 4th Doctor
Regeneration 4 - 4th Doctor to 5th Doctor
Regeneration 5 - 5th Doctor to 6th Doctor
Regeneration 6 - 6th Doctor to 7th Doctor
Regeneration 7 - 7th Doctor to 8th Doctor
Regeneration 8 - 8th Doctor to War Doctor
Regeneration 9 - War Doctor to 9th Doctor
Regeneration 10 - 9th Doctor to 10th Doctor
Regeneration 11 - 10th Doctor to 10th Doctor* **
Regeneration 12 - 10th Doctor to 11th Doctor

*The regeneration was triggered and saved the 10th Doctor from Dalek death , but he didn't change form because he was able to siphon off the regeneration energy into his severed hand.

**Food for thought - This could be where the Valeyard came from. He was probably pissed that he was about to emerge and then was denied.

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