Day of the Doctor (50th anniversary special)


Television

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Ivan Rûski wrote:
Anyone else wishing we could see a bit more of John Hurt as The Doctor during the war?

At this point, I want more McGann. (On television, I mean, rather than in audio adventures.)

Sovereign Court

KSF wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:
Anyone else wishing we could see a bit more of John Hurt as The Doctor during the war?
At this point, I want more McGann. (On television, I mean, rather than in audio adventures.)

It was a shame they didnt fit McGann in. All they gave him was a webisode. God I hate the word webisode....

Grand Lodge

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The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Wow you should have seen the old Five Doctors - they bickered and competed all the way through.

Pertwee and Troughton made it their ongoing performance schtick, whenever the two actors appeared as guests at the same convention.

Grand Lodge

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SmiloDan wrote:

Was the Doctor wearing kind of a brown coat?

The War Doctor is wearing Eccleston's coat. Not a copy, Nine's actual coat.


Finally got around to watching it (had to wait to watch it while family members were out of town and about).

I enjoyed it a lot, very entertaining. Interested to see where they're going with the whole

Spoiler:
"Find Gallifrey" thing, and exactly how Smith!Doctor bites it.

The Exchange

KSF wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:

Watched first 30 minutes... and I am not sure I can find it within myself to watch the rest.

What I was most excited about for this episode was the return of 10. I never watched the old show, but from the 3 newest doctors, he was by far my favorite.

What I got was NOTHING like 10. The peace loving adventurer of endless wonder was turned into a matt smith clone.

I don't know, he seemed like 10 to me. I was quite happy to have him back (as he's my favorite).

** spoiler omitted **

And keep in mind that Moffat was one of the writers for 10, and wrote some of his best episodes. I guess one could argue that RT Davies (whose era I prefer) had some sort of ameliorating influence on Moffat's 10-era scripts, but I think you're being too hard on Moffat here. (I say that as someone who is generally not a huge fan of Moffat's tenure as showrunner.)

Lord Snow wrote:
Instead of having fun and rescuing humans, 10 is now a selfish, annoying man with a superiority complex.

That's definitely not the impression I got.

Anyways, if you don't watch the whole thing, I think...

1) 10 got to meet 2 other doctors before this episode - one of them was a fake doctor (the human with false memories from "The Next Doctor") - and to both of them, his reaction has been extremely positive. Just like his reaction to everything else that was good, really. Seeing him compare sonic screwdriver sizes with 11 was... jarring.

2) Again, though, once 10 confronted the alien (actually the queen but again, he didn't know that yet) about his suspicions, he spent quiet a bit of time trying to show off, shout and act triumphant When a women who loves him is supposedly in danger. Sorry, but I watched seasons 2-4 twice during 2013, and that is NOT AT ALL how 10 thinks or operates. That's pure 11.

3) And you don't think he has a superiority complex? 10 used to HATE all the titles he has which described him as a destroyer. Whenever he let lose and really destroyed something (like the spider thingies from the first episode he has with Donna) he eventually comes to regret having to do that. He eventually pays a price. He was a wonderful man who refused to serve in any army because he was a Doctor, not a soldier (Mat Smith saluting to a UNIT officer in this episode without even knowing why is a great contrast to how 10 reacted to military officers). He would call himself the doctor, he will call you fantastic, and if there's a way, he would solve issues without having to kill or harm anyone.
And now he's just blurting his list of titles at a random shape shifter. The same Doctor that

Spoiler:
the Daleks almost defeated once by showing him that he made all his companions into soldiers, which almost crushed his will,

is now declaring himself "the oncoming storm" to just some random alien.

Honestly, I advise you to go and rewatch just about any episode from 10's era, and see what I mean. This was by no means the same Doctor.

And as to Mofat... yes, his episodes in the RTD era were brilliant. Pretty sure that's because they were edited quite thoroughly. My desperation with him is something that built up during the last 3 seasons. Sexism, incoherent, self conflicting plot lines that are jarring even on a Doctor Who scale of things, 0 character development on most companions, and the Doctor being a jerk who roams the earth calling people "potato heads" and thinking he is smarter than everyone... and now ruining 10. This is really too much.


Doctor being a Jerk see 7 and his relationship with Ace. The Doctor being a superior know it all see 1,2,3,4 and 6.

The Exchange

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Doctor being a Jerk see 7 and his relationship with Ace. The Doctor being a superior know it all see 1,2,3,4 and 6.

Again, never watched the classic Doctor Who, and for me that's not a consideration. 9 and 10 were very positive characters, and that's how I perceive the Doctor... and if the show is currently doing something different, I'll just leave it for a while and come back when the Doctor is less Doctor House and more doctor Who.


What he's saying is that just because you don't like the attitude doesn't mean it's not Doctor Who. It just means that 2 incarnations (of 11, so far) exhibited those tendencies.

And I honestly didn't see what was wrong here in the first place, looked through a meta-lense. It was all fan-service.

Spoiler:
From Rose being The Moment
to the "Bunny Rant", it was all meant as little nods to previous characters. That's all.

Take it at face value, watch, and be happy.


Hey Lord Snow, have you seen the Christmas Special with Tennant on the Titanic? Or The Waters of Mars? Tennants Doctor could be arrogant...

Ps. I thought the anniversary special was awesome. About halfway through I was having doubts but the end really brought it home for me and got me excited about where the show is heading in the future :)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazarX wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Was the Doctor wearing kind of a brown coat?

The War Doctor is wearing Eccleston's coat. Not a copy, Nine's actual coat.

Shiny!

Grand Lodge

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Lord Snow wrote:
The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Doctor being a Jerk see 7 and his relationship with Ace. The Doctor being a superior know it all see 1,2,3,4 and 6.
Again, never watched the classic Doctor Who, and for me that's not a consideration. 9 and 10 were very positive characters, and that's how I perceive the Doctor... and if the show is currently doing something different, I'll just leave it for a while and come back when the Doctor is less Doctor House and more doctor Who.

You seem to have forgotten "Waters of Mars" and it's Time Lord Victorius. This story seems to take place in 10's timeline just before "End of Time." which is after "Waters of Mars".

You seem to have really missed the character development of the Ponds as they aged during their on and off again tenure as TARDIS passengers. As well as the occasionally reverse development of River Song, as needed by the story.

All three of the Revival series Doctors carried much more blood on their hands than the classic Doctor, the slaughter of untold billions and billions during the Time War.... including many that were innocent of wrong doing.


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Lord Snow wrote:

Watched first 30 minutes... and I am not sure I can find it within myself to watch the rest.

What I was most excited about for this episode was the return of 10. I never watched the old show, but from the 3 newest doctors, he was by far my favorite.

What I got was NOTHING like 10. The peace loving adventurer of endless wonder was turned into a matt smith clone.

Compare 10's reaction when he meets his "future self" in "The Next Doctor" - that dazzling smile, thinking the man was brilliant for constructing a makeshift "TARDIS"... There was a very real and powerful feeling of wonder.

And now? he meets his new self an immediately becomes competitive. Because if Mofat can have a word on the subject, the Doctor is kind of a jerk. Also a womanizer, apparently. The man who loved Rose, and who couldn't find love for Martha, and who always treated his companions as fellow adventurers, is now rescuing such a stupid version of the queen of England that had the historical figure resembled the one in the show even a little bit, surely that country would have collapsed. Instead of having fun and rescuing humans, 10 is now a selfish, annoying man with a superiority complex.

If it would have been the Tennanet of season 4, he wouldn't have GONE ON A FREAKING DATE with an evil shapeshifter, he would have tried to find out what the shape shifter did to the queen*. Had he been the Doctor he was 3 seasons ago, he wouldn't have blurted his list of titles (NONE of which the original 10 was proud of) at fluffy wood animals.

It was frankly plain and simple awful for me to watch. I think the last vastige of hope I had for the show is gone, and I will probably wait out the rest of the Mofat era. It's just too much for me to take.

* I know, the shape shifter was the horse, but the Doctor didn't know it at the time.

He was very much like 10. It was David Tennant. Scripts don't give direction or acting instructions. That's up to the actor. And even if you mean dialogue alone he wasn't a Matt Smith clone. Number 10 was quite happy to announce his genius and Time Lord credentials - particularly when he was companionless - as his tenure went on. Voyage of the Damned, Midnight and Waters of Mars spring to mind straight away.

As for The Next Doctor's TARDIS, well he'd twigged by then that he was really Jackson Lake and was marvelling at human endeavour.

Competitive Doctoring is a tradition. Just because you choose to ignore or avoid the early episodes doesn't lessen their influence on current shows. It's part of the heritage and expected by the fans - and that's who anniversary shows are for. The references to The Three Doctors was a hint that we should take this adventure with a pinch of salt.

The so-called womanizing? Well 10 got in a lot of kissing for a chaste Time Lord, so it was more of an in-joke. Plus going on a date to draw out a Zygon commander (or find where the real Queen was) fits his brief. And it squared the circle for The Shakespeare Code.

Cheers
Mark

The Exchange

I actually mostly agree with Lord Snow on 10's general portrayal in Day of the Doctor, he really is having an off day even more so than the specials leading up to his regeneration and is pretty much always a step behind both John Hurt and 11. Thats Moffat's sense of superiority (see overuse of the Weeping Angels when he took over as showrunner) in that his stuff has to be better.

That being said on the whole I liked the episode even though theres a bit too much squashed in and I still think Moffat isn't good as a show runner especially with his pacing of meta arcs but for single stories he can still write up a storm.

The Exchange

Rynjin wrote:

What he's saying is that just because you don't like the attitude doesn't mean it's not Doctor Who. It just means that 2 incarnations (of 11, so far) exhibited those tendencies.

Didn't say it's not Doctor Who, just said that it was very definitely not 10, and as long as the Doctor is a jerk, I honestly don't want to watch him or his adventures anymore... when one day we get a honestly good, compassionate, caring, loving Doctor again, that's when I'll come back for the show.

And for all those citing "Water of Mars" to show that 10 was as vain as 11 is - that's very, very far from a valid comparison. 11 (and 10 in the 50 years anniversary) uses every chance he has to belittle others and be cocky about himself. When 10 (after a serious emotional crisis) declared himself "time lord victorious" it was a REALLY big moment, that showed him "going too far", and he was punished for it rather quickly by *death*. That is not the same kind of behavior he displayed in the 50 years anniversary, shouting his titles at random aliens. It's a matter of attitude.

10 was a flawed character, but he was a truly great man. 11 is like a 7 year old boy with a genius intellect - he is self centered, condescending, and mostly incapable of feeling the pain of others around him. You get the sense that he only cares about his companions, and that from a self centered reason - he enjoys their company and doesn't want them to leave. Remember how 10 used to feel really guilty for putting him companions in serious risk? always tried to persuade them to go back home, but unable to resist himself the pleasure of sharing his adventures with someone? well, 11 doesn't care, at all, that he is endangering anyone. For crying out loud, he took the children Clara was supposed to watch out for in his Tardis and managed to let Cybermen kidnap them. Not cool. Back in seasons 2 - 4, when Cybermen caught someone they injected their brain with wire-thingies, killing the host on the spot. The new, wireless cybermen are a lot nicer, it seems, and that's the ONLY reason those children are still alive.

Look, if people are cool with how 11 is acting, because that's what they expect of the Doctor, that's fine. Maybe it's about having a wider perspective gained by watching his older, pre RTD adventures. Maybe people just don't care what kind of a man the Doctor is. Well, I care. 10, in his era, was by every single definition of the word a better person than 11 is. And now the 50 years anniversary has him acting in very similar ways to 11. I hated the hack out of it. Trying to convince me that there were 2 or 3 times in 10's life that he was being less than angelic is not going to change the fact that the general *feel* of the show has changed. And I don't like the new feel. All there is too it, really.


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@Lord Snow

I guess I'll continue to disagree. Not with your reading of 10, necessarily, just that his portrayal here was inconsistent with earlier portrayals.

10 seemed a little angrier, a little weary, a little lost here to me, so I'm guessing this is shortly before Waters of Mars. I'd guess it's in his late, companion-less period, given how he's acting, without a companion to ground him. This is precisely what Donna warns him against at the end of "The Runaway Bride." Wilf's concern for him at the end of "Journey's End" fits in here as well.

Here, I read 10 as being still in mourning over Donna's fate, on some level, and having retreated a bit inside himself. This is still prior to his experiences in "The Waters of Mars," and most likely prior to the "one last good time" trip he seems to go on between "The Waters of Mars" and "The End of Time." I think, from that perspective, what we see of him here is consistent with his overall character arc.

As for the competitiveness, my reading of it is that, again, the interaction between 10 and 5 in "Time Crash" is a significant exception in how the Doctors interact with each other. There's a special connection between those two incarnations (as indeed there is in terms of personality). The interaction between 10 and Jackson Lake is different than what we see here between 10 and 11 precisely because Lake is not the Doctor, so he doesn't rub the Doctor the wrong way and vice versa.

I've always read the way different Doctors get on each others nerves as being similar to the way that siblings will sometimes get on each others nerves. It's a humorous nod to the history of the show that, in my opinion, is no big deal and does not do damage to 10's character.

Lord Snow wrote:
Maybe people just don't care what kind of a man the Doctor is. Well, I care.

That's a bit of a leap, and, I'd wager, a bit of an inaccurate assumption. Personally, in my own experience, I've found that assumptions made about people and their tastes and preferences, based on a disagreement about a single work (a movie, an episode of a show) tend to be inaccurate. That people are reacting differently than you does not necessarily indicate that they feel differently about 10, or about the RTD era, or about the Moffat era than you do.

People are complicated. Tastes are complicated. Opinions are subjective.

Lord Snow wrote:
is not going to change the fact that the general *feel* of the show has changed. And I don't like the new feel. All there is too it, really.

If you put it that way, I somewhat agree with you. The feel of the show is very different, and in general, it doesn't work for me, or affect me as much as the RTD-era of the show did. It often feels driven more by cleverness than compassion. Though I think 11 can be quite compassionate at times - he's just a bit absent-minded, and has also thrown up a bit of a protective shell after what 9 and 10 went through, hoarding his heart, and opening it only to a few (like the Ponds). (I'm curious to see how this changes with 12. On the one hand, I expect that 12 might be somewhat dark. On the other hand, a lot of the baggage the Doctor has been carrying since the Time War gets resolved here, so maybe he goes the opposite direction.)

Given that it's currently 11's show (and Moffat's show), I'd expect the anniversary special to maintain the feel of the current era of the show. 10 is, essentially, a guest in the story. That's how it always works with multi-Doctor stories. Even with "Time Crash," which is very much a David Tennant-era story, and not a Peter Davison-era story.

I'd still respectfully suggest you watch the rest of the special. There's some stuff later in the episode that really contrasts 10 and 11, and is exactly the sort of thing you're talking about. 10 is very much there. A bit angry, perhaps, a bit wounded, but he's there.

As someone for whom 10 is her favorite Doctor (out of all the Doctors - I watched the old show while growing up, with 5 as my Doctor prior to 10, and I have since watched adventures with every single Doctor), I was satisfied, happy to see an old friend again.

I would also suggest, again respectfully, that you can't accurately evaluate a work without having seen the entire work.

But if you don't want to watch the rest, that's okay.

Edit to add: And if you don't want to watch the series anymore either, that's okay too. I nearly reached that point myself, recently. But Rory kept me watching while the Ponds were around (Rory is awesome), and then Clara arrived and kept me going, and now this special seems to have pulled me back in to the point where I'm looking forward to new episodes again for the first time in a few seasons. (Even though I still prefer RTD-era Who.)

The Exchange

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Its worth noting that 5 and 10 are very much 2 of the nicer Doctors (8 and 9 might fit here) hence the much more positive meeting.

Spoiler:
Its also worth noting that 10 is given the sobriquet of the Hero which is very much a more positive one than a number of the others got 2 got the clown, 3 the dandy and 7 the trickster.


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Moffat on the new underlying direction for the show.

Spoiler:
article wrote:
He confirmed that the Doctor is now definitely on a voyage home. “He has the possibility of going home,” he said. “He can find Gallifrey. It might take him a while, who knows? And who knows what he’ll do when he gets there? Get bored and run away again I would think. But! Yes, he has a mission statement now.”
Moffat wrote:
"By giving him something to pitch for… it’s not that every episode will be, ‘oh well I nearly found it!’ We absolutely will not do that, but it gives him somewhere to go. Even a character like the Doctor… this is going to sound absurd and I’m trying to work out a way not to sound pretentious, but he doesn’t know he’s a character in a television show, he doesn’t know he’s just having adventures for our entertainment. He’s got to have something to do, and this will be the thing he does.”


Overall, I really enjoyed the 50th special. I also enjoyed watching the McGann mini episode which unfortunately I didn't realize was out there until after I saw the show on Saturday. Below is what I wish was different, which isn't too much.

Spoiler:

I wish they could have worked in new scenes with Doctors #7, #8 and #9. McCoy still looks close enough to 1996 that with makeup they could have pulled off having him in the show. Completely showing the War Doctor regenerating into #9 and then some of his experience right after would have been good too.

Where were all of the companions? Not all of them of course, but what about a select few, even as older versions of themselves from their life after they left the Doctor.

I really enjoyed them having the Zygons. Good choice.


I find it interesting that Matt Smith's Doctor regularly hailed as the most popular version in the show's history. He's not my first choice, but the character has grown on me over the years. Do people like Smith the most, his stories the best, or is it more about our connected world of entertainment that makes the show easier to access for more viewers than ever?

Shadow Lodge

Smith and Eccleston regularly vie for which is my favorite - I liked Smith more right out of the box, but that's waned over the last couple of seasons, and I'm glad he's on his way out, not out of any malice or dislike, I just think he and his character have played themselves out. Eccleston left on high notes and on the one hand I'm glad for it, it didn't give him time to sour, but on the other I wish he'd been able to stay longer than he did.

Tennant was okay but I consider him overrated given the fawning of the vocal portions of the fandom.


Legendarius wrote:

Overall, I really enjoyed the 50th special. I also enjoyed watching the McGann mini episode which unfortunately I didn't realize was out there until after I saw the show on Saturday. Below is what I wish was different, which isn't too much.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:
Eccleston's made it clear he won't come back, so their hands were tied there. I agree it would have been nice to see the rest of the regeneration. As for companions, while we didn't see him, Ian Chesterton gets a nod at the start of the show, we did see photos of a number of them on the bulletin board, and we had Kate Stewart in for the Brig. So at least there was a nod their way.

Also, you can see a whole bunch of people from Classic Who in this other anniversary special, The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot.


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QXL99 wrote:
I find it interesting that Matt Smith's Doctor regularly hailed as the most popular version in the show's history. He's not my first choice, but the character has grown on me over the years. Do people like Smith the most, his stories the best, or is it more about our connected world of entertainment that makes the show easier to access for more viewers than ever?

I think it's a combination of the character being lovably eccentric, the show having grown its audience during the Tennant years, the easier availability of the show in the US via BBC America (I think the broadcast in the US and UK is now more or less simultaneous - iTunes might help as well), and the increased push by BBC marketing. Both Math Smith and Karen Gillan being attractive probably helped as well.

I still much prefer Tennant, followed by Eccleston. Eccleston was great, but I adore Tennant's take on the role.

(For the whole batch, I'd probably go: 10 > 5 > 9 > 3 > 2 > 8 > 4 = 11 = 1 > 6 = 7. Not that I've spent a lot of time thinking about that or anything :)

Edit to add:

Orthos wrote:
Tennant was okay but I consider him overrated given the fawning of the vocal portions of the fandom.

I think Tennant and Smith are about equal at this point, in terms of fawning, vocal fans. If anything, I think Smith has eclipsed Tennant in that regard.


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I give the show an A+. It was everything i could have hoped for.

Matt Smith was not my favorite DR and i was not a fan of the same companions for years.

For those who liked Tennant for his compassion you should check out the 5th DR. I'm old enough to have watched some of the 4th stuff when they first started airing over in the Us and they 4th and 5th were drastically diffent. Something to share

-They are all egomaniacs and braggarts. The companions are there be amazed by the DR and he "always" places them in dangerous situations

-David Tennant broke the mold for romance. Rose Tyler, flirting with Captain Jack, when has to hide as a human, etc.

-Tennant had as much fury as Smith or any past DR. He constantly used his sonic screwdriver as a weapon and his companions as wells as his enemies commented on his violence. He may have been the first DR to hold a pistol and almost use it.

I'm going to disagree on Tennant being different in the Day of the DR. If anything he was the same. You cant exclude the specials

The Exchange

@KSF - be completely, 1000000% honest with me for a moment. Answer the following questions:

1) Imagine it's now a few years ago, and Doctor Who is between seasons 4 and 5, and instead of regular episodes we are going to get a big special once in a while, and you haven't't seen any of the specials yet. 10 has recently lost Donna. Now for the question: I show you a clip from each of the specials, each one of these clips about 4 minutes long, and they all feature 10. Between those clips, I hide the part from the 50 years anniversary where 10 is dating the queen, accusing her of being a shape shifter, and then chases an alien through the forest, shouts his titles at a rabbit, and sees the two identical queens.
Question: If I would have told you one clip was not taken from the specials in the upcoming years, and was written by someone else, would you have been able to spot which one?

2) If 10 would have always behaved like he did in the 50 years anniversary (at least in the parts Iv'e seen, up to the moment he meets 11) would he still be your doctor?

If you answered "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second, we'll just have to agree to disagree on these points. If you didn't, then I'll hope you see what I mean when I say that 10 was not himself, and that this version of him is far less enjoyable than the original version.

But yes, the bottom line is the general feel of the show. Whenever I criticize 11's era about something, people always bring anecdotal evidance about certain times when 10 did something similar, but the point I'm failing again and again to communicate is that it's not about any specific thing, it's about the entire show having a completely different face in the past 3 seasons - one that is far less easy on the eye.

When rampant sexism is only the first bad thing to say about a show, you know your'e in trouble. 11 is *constantly* behaving in ways that are worse than 10 in his worst moments... and whenever 10 erred, he was punished by it - either scolded by a companion, or suffered a great tragedy or (eventually) died. 11 is not only not punished - he is sort of encouraged. The show actually presents what he does as if it's a good thing when it really, really isn't. So what if 10 once let pride carry him too far in the midst of an emotional turmoil. So what if in "midnight" he was acting really superior to the other passengers trapped with him (that, by the way, almost got him killed because some of those people didn't like him and easily turned on him). So what if there was this one time he said "no second chances" (after already giving that enemy a second chance, and never actually acting on the "no second chance" policy after that episode). When 10 did something bad it was a rare event, and he got punished for it, and it was presented as something bad which introduced complexity to his character. When 11 does something bad you don't even notice it anymore.

As for watching the 50 years anniversary... I might, after cooling down for another couple of days. Seeing 10 ravaged like that by Mofat's writing was a horrible experience that is now chewing on my fond memories of him in his own seasons. I just don't know if I am willing to risk exposure to any more scenes like those Iv'e seen already.

The Exchange

And also, when I wondered if people even cared what sort of person the doctor is... well...

Whenever I say something bad about 11, twenty different people jump up to tell me that previous doctors from the classic era were much more horrible in such and such ways. Given that I am exasperated from the show and am on the verge of leaving it just because of 3 bad seasons with one Doctor I don't care for, I come to wonder how those people kept watching Doctor Who season after season through all those terrible Doctors who are much worse than 11. I conclude that either they don't care what kind of person the doctor is, or the previous Doctors weren't so horrible. Or maybe there's a third option I'm not seeing. If people DO care what kind of person the Doctor is, maybe they just care dramatically less than I do, to the point that I'll consider it not caring ("I don't want the Doctor to be a child molester" does not count as caring what sort of person he is), but maybe from their viewpoints they do care. It's a question of perspective.

Shadow Lodge

Legendarius wrote:


I wish they could have worked in new scenes with Doctors #7, #8 and #9. McCoy still looks close enough to 1996 that with makeup they could have pulled off having him in the show. Completely showing the War Doctor regenerating into #9 and then some of his experience right after would have been good too.

Where were all of the companions? Not all of them of course, but what about a select few, even as older versions of themselves from their life after they left the Doctor.

Companions:
The fates of the earthbound companions were mentioned in the Sara Jane Adventures episode Death of the Doctor. Sophie Aldred (Ace) was lined up for a Sara Jane Adventure episode when Liz Sladden died. Makes me real sad I didn't get to see my first love/companion again.

I wouldn't be surprised if 7 gets a webisode and 8 gets another eventually.


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@Lord Snow
We'll just have to agree to disagree about certain things. For what it's worth 10 is my favourite modern Doctor and I was pleased to see him back. I'm only now starting to like the Smith era (still some disappointing episodes though) although that's more to do with the stories rather than the character.

We all care about the character. If we didn't we wouldn't be here writing to strangers about it failing to change the other's point of view.....

Cheers
Mark

Sovereign Court

Honestly, it's just a kids TV show and I'm rather surprised that consistent characterisation is a concern.

Whenever a new writer/whatever takes over a character it changes because human beings.

I liked the comedy bits but thought the drama was weak. As a bit of fun on a Saturday afternoon, I enjoyed it.

If I was inclined to pick it apart then I could tear it to shreds, we all could. I don't expect James Baldwin or Ursula Le Guin when I watch children's action/adventure sci-fi.

What next? Worrying about whether Fraggle Rock is internally consistent?


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Those of us who have watched the show for 30 or more years, care about what kind of man the Doctor is.

For poor old number 6 Colin Baker, his character was destroyed by the producers, he had very little control of its direction. His Doctor was made unlikeable to kill the show by the powers that be.

This attempt to destroy the show ran into 7s tenure. McCoy's 7 while a master manipulator and not nice to his companion at times, was far less psycho than 6 and responsible for two of the best episodes ever The Curse of Fenric and Battlefield ..... But the good stuff came too late and the show was canceled.

I was watching from Jon Pertwee and the cancelation hit me hard... The failed American remake (Paul McGann was brilliant) was not Dr Who on so many levels (although his radio shows and the minisode were very much the Doctor). You Yanks have a gift for taking a good TV show missing all the bits that make the show good and turning it into something less than a sum of its parts.

So what kind of man the Doctor is is very important to me.


Kerney wrote:
Legendarius wrote:


I wish they could have worked in new scenes with Doctors #7, #8 and #9. McCoy still looks close enough to 1996 that with makeup they could have pulled off having him in the show. Completely showing the War Doctor regenerating into #9 and then some of his experience right after would have been good too.

Where were all of the companions? Not all of them of course, but what about a select few, even as older versions of themselves from their life after they left the Doctor.

** spoiler omitted **

I wouldn't be surprised if 7 gets a webisode and 8 gets another eventually.

Sophie could totally pick up where SJ left off......


Lord Snow you clearly have a fondness for 10 and i disagree with you and not my concern if you dont care for Moffat, history, or the direction the show is taking (so wont try to lure you back to the show). I'm not going to persuade you to like Matt Smith as he wasnt my favorite DR. Moffat has certainly tackled sexuality in the new series and even as a traditionalist im ok with it. The DR #1 has a grandchild and its one of the shows mysteries that has not been explained.

You grabbed onto a small portion of Tennants behavior and i understand your pain of that loss as i did the same when the 4th Dr died.Tennat involving mimself in history has been a consnant and his behavioe id typical of the DR.

I dont watch the DR becuase hes a good soul. I watch it because of the stories. Hes a combination of Sherlock holmes, a brilliant scientist, a madman, Macgyver, risk taker, James Bond, a caring grandfatherly figure and an explorer. etc He often gets put into situatons he doesnt want to be in and seems to be at the mercy of the Tardis.

Youve jumped into the middle of story and are unwilling to accept that he changes. Just like the Cybermen and the Daleks he evolves throughout the series but he is still the DR

Im happy with the direction the show is going and i have a feeling that the 13 DR maybe cloers to the 4th than the Tennant era .


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KSF wrote:


Here, I read 10 as being still in mourning over Donna's fate, on some level, and having retreated a bit inside himself. This is still prior to his experiences in "The Waters of Mars," and most likely prior to the "one last good time" trip he seems to go on between "The Waters of Mars" and "The End of Time." I think, from that perspective, what we see of him here is consistent with his overall character arc.

Actually, he mentions marrying Elizabeth I on his "one last good time" trip at the start of "The End of Time", so I think this places him right before that story: bitter, angry with himself, and trying to deny the fate that time has lined up for him.

The Exchange

wicked cool wrote:


1) Moffat has certainly tackled sexuality in the new series and even as a traditionalist im ok with it. The DR #1 has a grandchild and its one of the shows mysteries that has not been explained.

2)I dont watch the DR becuase hes a good soul. I watch it because of the stories. Hes a combination of Sherlock holmes, a brilliant scientist, a madman, Macgyver, risk taker, James Bond, a caring grandfatherly figure and an explorer. etc He often gets put into situatons he doesnt want to be in and seems to be at the mercy of the Tardis.

3)Youve jumped into the middle of story and are unwilling to accept that he changes. Just like the Cybermen and the Daleks he evolves throughout the series but he is still the DR

1) My problem is not sexuality, it's sexism. For more details about that, check out this essay on the subject. I doubt you could remain unconvinced.

2) So, as I say, you care far less about who the Doctor is than I do. To me one of the most central attraction points in the series was the character of the Doctor as portrayed by 9 and 10 (or should I say by RTD?). If he is still an explorer, but a nasty self centered one with a superiority complex, I just don't care anymore.

3) I am alright with change and am willing to accept it. I am not willing to accept such a degradation as Iv'e seen in the passage from 10 to 11. It's not "something different", it's "something considerably lesser". Now that is an opinion, of course, but it's not about being unwilling to accept change. It's about not liking the new results of a recent change. When the time comes and things change again, I might change my mind.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Awesome interview--probably the best ever--with Matt Smith.

Sovereign Court

Seen it, liked it quite a lot. Too bad they couldn't get Eccleston to reprise his performance. That would have been awesome. And i liked the 12th Doctor cameo. Well, half cameo anyway.


Lord Snow wrote:

@KSF - be completely, 1000000% honest with me for a moment. Answer the following questions:

1) Imagine it's now a few years ago, and Doctor Who is between seasons 4 and 5, and instead of regular episodes we are going to get a big special once in a while, and you haven't't seen any of the specials yet. 10 has recently lost Donna. Now for the question: I show you a clip from each of the specials, each one of these clips about 4 minutes long, and they all feature 10. Between those clips, I hide the part from the 50 years anniversary where 10 is dating the queen, accusing her of being a shape shifter, and then chases an alien through the forest, shouts his titles at a rabbit, and sees the two identical queens.
Question: If I would have told you one clip was not taken from the specials in the upcoming years, and was written by someone else, would you have been able to spot which one?

Probably not in regards to the writing. Honestly. If I'd have picked any, it would have been "Planet of the Dead," if that clip had shown his flirtations with Lady Christina. Never bought into that happening for some reason.

If a clip from "Day of the Doctor" was in there, the giveaway would be that Tennant had clearly aged. That's why I'd pick it out.

Lord Snow wrote:
2) If 10 would have always behaved like he did in the 50 years anniversary (at least in the parts Iv'e seen, up to the moment he meets 11) would he still be your doctor?

If he behaved like that all the time, maybe not. If he behaved like that occasionally, as he has prior to "Day of the Doctor," sure.

Are you maybe expecting the character to be somewhat frozen in time, to not have any sort of arc? As others have pointed out, this seems to be taking place after "The Waters of Mars." He's not in the best place at that point, mentally, emotionally. He's not at his best.

If I have a friend who goes through difficult times, and is currently not at their best, I don't reject them. Same thing here. This slots into the overall arc of the character, which is resolved by the end of "The End of Time." I found that arc very satisfying. This doesn't break it, but instead coincides with it, so I'm fine with it.

Would I have preferred to have seen an earlier version 10 appear here, that is, 10 from Series 2-4? Maybe. But I actually think it's interesting that you have the War Doctor at his darkest moment running into 10 during one of his difficult periods, and running into 11 right before he faces his own final confrontation (whatever that might be). Actually, both 10 and 11 are heading for their final adventure, and the climax of their own regeneration. One could read this as contributing to... wait, you haven't seen the rest. So I'll stop there. (Not trying to be a jerk, was typing out a thought, then realized you haven't watched the whole thing.)

If I want to revisit 10 as he was in Series 2-4, I just have to pop in a DVD.

Lord Snow wrote:
But yes, the bottom line is the general feel of the show. Whenever I criticize 11's era about something, people always bring anecdotal evidance about certain times when 10 did something similar, but the point I'm failing again and again to communicate is that it's not about any specific thing, it's about the entire show having a completely different face in the past 3 seasons - one that is far less easy on the eye.

I would not disagree with that. I think the feel of the show is currently very different than it was under Davies, and I much prefer it the way it was. But there's no way "The Day of the Doctor" was going to seem like Davies-era who. It's a different production team, with a different lead (Matt Smith). Again, this is normal for multi-Doctor stories. "The Three Doctors" was primarily a product of 3's era, rather than 2's or 1's. "The Five Doctors" felt like a part of 5's era, "The Two Doctors" of 6's, and "Time Crash" of 10's.

Lord Snow wrote:
When rampant sexism is only the first bad thing to say about a show, you know your'e in trouble.

I think some of the discussion about sexism in the show, under Moffat, has been on target. But only some of it. I've read some of the essay you link to, but admittedly not all of it. I've read plenty of discussions online about the sexism of Moffat's version of the show, and am pretty sure, after taking another quick skim of the essay that there's nothing there I haven't read elsewhere. Again, I agree with some of it, but not all of it.

Lord Snow wrote:
11 is *constantly* behaving in ways that are worse than 10 in his worst moments... and whenever 10 erred, he was punished by it - either scolded by a companion, or suffered a great tragedy or (eventually) died. 11 is not only not punished - he is sort of encouraged. The show actually presents what he does as if it's a good thing when it really, really isn't.

I agree 11 is a bit more prickly, more of a jerk than 10 some of the time. But to say he's not punished for it... I don't know, I don't think that's accurate. To say no one calls him out on his behavior, again, I don't think that's accurate. Both Amy and River seemed to do that pretty regularly.

(Also, 10 enacted the "no second chances" policy a few times: "The Christmas Invasion" (with Harriet Jones), "The Runaway Bride" (only stopped by Donna), "Human Nature"/"The Family of Blood." He's not to happy to see that Captain Jack is alive near the end of Series 3. And keep in mind he saves the family in "The Fires of Pompeii" only at Donna's insistence.)

I think 11 stumbles around a bit more than 10. He's less forgiving than 10. But I also think it's inaccurate to say he doesn't care about endangering anyone. He does do things like trying to save Bracewell in "Victory of the Daleks," he initially offers to help Signora Calvierri find a home in "The Vampires of Venice," he tries to negotiate between the Ice Warrior and the Soviets in "Cold War," and so on.

I'm not a fan of the Moffat era, but to say "When 11 does something bad you don't even notice it anymore" seems to me an exaggeration.

Lord Snow wrote:
And also, when I wondered if people even cared what sort of person the doctor is... well...

Some of the previous Doctors were exasperating by design: 1, 6, to a lesser extent 3. Some of them could occasionally be jerks. None of them were perfect. And when they appeared beside each other in the occasional multi-Doctor show, they tended to bicker.

Unless I missed a post, I didn't see anyone saying they were "terrible" or bad people. Arrogant? Yes, often. Confounding? Again, yes, often. Occasionally jerky to their companions, some of them, sometimes. Markedly less compassionate than 10? Depends on the Doctor. Yes for 1 and 6. Not really, for 2-5, 7 and 8. Particularly not for 5, 8 and, in his own arrogant way, 3. The Doctor is not a perfect person. Far from it. Maybe 10 is as close as he's gotten so far, and he kind of got slapped down by the universe for it, multiple times. (Hence, 11.)

My reasons for liking 10 so much seem to be similar to your own. (It's also why I like 5 so much.) But I don't have to identify with a character (as I do with 10) to find that character interesting or worthwhile, or to find their stories worthwhile. My engagement with the show shifts somewhat as a result of the changes from 10 to 11. During much of 11's run, it's been Rory that's given me that identification character, but he's a peripheral character, and not a protagonist in the way that 11 and Amy have been. He's been my passport into the show during Moffat's run, and now Clara seems to be serving the same function. Even so, I'm still watching the Doctor, still interested in him, in his development as a character.

Now, in saying all of that, I am not saying I don't care who the Doctor is. 11 is, in some ways, more flawed than 10, I agree. But flaws can be interesting. So while he does not sit close to my heart the way 10 did, I still find it worthwhile to engage with the character and with the show.

Particularly when I think about the idea, often floated about for the classic series, that each incarnation of the Doctor is a reaction to the previous incarnation, and a reaction to the way the previous incarnation died. 11 seems to me on some level wounded, and still trying to get over what 9, 10 and 8.5 (the War Doctor) experienced. I find that interesting as well. And that multi-Doctor arc seems to be drawing to a close, so I'm really curious about where they go next with 12.

I'd also add that, although I'm not a huge fan of Moffat-era Who, and although Matt Smith is nowhere near the top of my list of favorite Doctors, I don't see what's so terrible about 11 as a person, beyond some character flaws and the occasional bad decision that are the stuff of drama, and that are also present, to different degrees, in 10 as well.

I don't know, your opinion is your opinion, and if you're no longer interested in the show, I'd have almost said the same earlier this year. If you are reacting this negatively, I'd suggest writing off the 11 era (though I still think you're missing out on some good 10 material by not watching the rest of the special), and then seeing how 12 turns out.

Edit to add: Sorry, got a bit rambly toward the end there.

Shadow Lodge

Lord Snow wrote:
2) Again, though, once 10 confronted the alien (actually the queen but again, he didn't know that yet) about his suspicions, he spent quiet a bit of time trying to show off, shout and act triumphant When a women who loves him is supposedly in danger. Sorry, but I watched seasons 2-4 twice during 2013, and that is NOT AT ALL how 10 thinks or operates. That's pure 11.

So, what I'm getting from this is that your only exposure to Ten is reading summaries. Cos quite a few times during his run he seemed quite a bit more concerned with showing off than with the people dying around him.

Shadow Lodge

wicked cool wrote:
He may have been the first DR to hold a pistol and almost use it.

You really think so?


Kthulhu wrote:
wicked cool wrote:
He may have been the first DR to hold a pistol and almost use it.
You really think so?

He he that's funny - I remember most of those I think only poor old number 6 was killing sentient creatures.

Silver Crusade

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I thoroughly loved the interplay between Sand Shoes, Grandad, and Chinny. :)

11th Doctor: It's a timey-wimey thing.
War Doctor: Timey what? Timey-wimey?
10th Doctor: I've no idea where he picks that stuff up. <_< >_>

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I just saw this on the big screen tonight--so much fun!

I loved the scene you quoted too, Mikaze.

I have to say, I had a lot of doubts and apprehension. And my Whovian self could surely pick lots of holes into things that happened. But can't ignore the fact that basically, I was smiling the whole time.


There is a s!~% load of inconsistency in Dr Who... Expecting it or wanting will just do your head in.

Just who is the Doctor for example, at times it had been hinted that he is Omega, Rassilon, and another powerful figure from Timelord ancient history, is he The White Guardian..... How many regeneration has he had the Möbius episode indicates there are or could be others.

The Master is sitting on about 16 regenerations he was able to steal a few and the Time Lords we able to offer him more as well.

The Exchange

Kthulhu wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
2) Again, though, once 10 confronted the alien (actually the queen but again, he didn't know that yet) about his suspicions, he spent quiet a bit of time trying to show off, shout and act triumphant When a women who loves him is supposedly in danger. Sorry, but I watched seasons 2-4 twice during 2013, and that is NOT AT ALL how 10 thinks or operates. That's pure 11.
So, what I'm getting from this is that your only exposure to Ten is reading summaries. Cos quite a few times during his run he seemed quite a bit more concerned with showing off than with the people dying around him.

Watched his seasons twice, and recently, actually. I have no idea what you are talking about, honestly. Sure, in the first half of season 2 the writers weren't as focused on the character and they had him be mean to Mickey and Mama Tyler, but that kind of petered off after the Cybermen story. And 10 always enjoys his cleverness, and if he had a chance to throw a clever quip at the bad guys he'll probably finish the episode with a smile rather than a frown... but that's the deal with the doctor. Or at least with 10. Never mind how many terrible things experienced, it's just not enough to make his sense of wonder or thirst for adventure go away. But going from there to saying he's more concerned with demonstrating superiority than with saving people....? far fetched. Unless there's something very basic I'm missing here. Are you maybe talking about the episode "midnight"? because that's only one episode, and it actually deviates quite a bit from the norm.

@KSF - from your words, I concluded that I should probably watch 5 for a while instead of whatever the hack is going on with the show under Moffat's supervision. And, indeed, we agree to disagree about 10 in the 50 years anniversary - had he sometimes been like that during his seasons, I might very well have quit the show a long time ago.

Shadow Lodge

Lord Snow - Tooth and Claw is perhaps the most glaring example, with both Rose and the Doctor seeming to be more concerned with trying to get Queen Victoria to say "We are not amused" than with actually helping people or saving lives.

And yeah, he was a complete and irredeemable a%%*#*# towards both Mickey and Jackie (a trait he shared with his predecessor). I will give him credit for actually softening up towards Mickey eventually...plus he was never as much of an a!~&+@& towards him as Rose was.

The Exchange

So yeah, as I figured, you are talking about the VERY early 10 - and indeed, the first half of season 2 was the worst period for him. He was still better than 11 in that time though. And it stopped. I would have easily forgiven such a behavior in 11 if it would have stopped in about 6 episodes. However, the end of his time is coming and it didn't stop. Big difference.

+ being a jerk towards Rose's loved ones feels like a carry over from 9. And he stopped being a jerk to them rather soon, and by the end of season 2 he wasn't at all.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

There is a s#+% load of inconsistency in Dr Who... Expecting it or wanting will just do your head in.

Just who is the Doctor for example, at times it had been hinted that he is Omega, Rassilon, and another powerful figure from Timelord ancient history, is he The White Guardian..... How many regeneration has he had the Möbius episode indicates there are or could be others.

The Master is sitting on about 16 regenerations he was able to steal a few and the Time Lords we able to offer him more as well.

<nitpick>Morbius</nitpick>. Möbius is the strip. (Although I am sure the similarity is not coincidental.)

It just shows that different production teams/writers have had different ideas/headcanons for who the Doctor is. I can't recall where it was, but I remember reading somewhere where just as intentionally as "The Brain of Morbius" showed possible lives of the Doctor prior to Hartnell, others intentionally showed just the known lives of the Doctor to establish as canon that Hartnell was indeed the first.

And maybe it's all just "timey wimey" anyway--maybe he is and isn't, just depends on the moment and the active timestream.

I've never seen the suggestion that he is the White Guardian though--where did that come from? Just curious.

This has been said before, but I just feel like it needs to be clear... IIRC the Master as played by Roger Delgado was his 13th self. He was injured and wounded badly, and thus BurnVictimMaster seen in the Deadly Assassin and most of the Keeper of Traken was also the 13th Master, just wounded beyond recognition. Likewise, BurnVictimMaster took over Consul Tremas's body (Anthony Ainley), so the AinleyMaster is STILL the 13th Master, and the same goes for Eric Roberts. The Time Lords have offered him new regenerations before but in the classic series he didn't get them. He clearly did during the Time War. Simms is the 15th *known* Master--how often he regenerated during the Time War is unknown. I'm not disagreeing with you that there have been many incarnations of the Master and 16 is even a good guess, but how many times he has regenerated as a Time Lord is different from how many appearances/bodies he has had. I CANNOT consider his body theft "regeneration." That's good old body snatching there, something else entirely different from the Time Lord life cycle. It is entirely possible I am pointlessly arguing semantics, mind, and this should all be taken with an appropriate grain of salt. (But if you disagree with me or have a different take, you obviously don't love the show as much as I do. ;) ;) ;) )

On ANOTHER NOTE....

WE STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHO THE WOMAN IN WHITE WAS. From the End of Time.

This drives me crazy.

OTOH, if (spoilers for Day of the Doctor follow)

Spoiler:

The Doctor is now on a quest to find Gallifrey, then perhaps this is still going to be resolved.


I don't think it was specified which regeneration the Master was on when he was Roger Delgado, but agreed every actor after Geoffrey Beavers is the Master possessing others - until Utopia.

Yes - who was the woman in white. What happened to Susan? What about Romana when Rassilon was resurrected (if Big Finish is deemed canon enough and she became President).

Ah.. the Cartmel Masterplan. I was glad to see the back of that. I think (if memory serves) that Virgin books tried to round out Gallifreyan mythology by adding 'The Other' to Rassilon and Omega, but stressed in their author notes that the Doctor was not this Other. Despite being disappointed with a lot of Moffat's stories I am more in favour of 'a madman in a box' than 'more than just a Time Lord'.

Oh Boy:
Now he has a 'quest' I hope we're not going to descend into some endless 'will he ever get home' shtick.

Cheers
Mark

Shadow Lodge

The woman in white was:

the Doctor's mother (I've read that this was RTD's actual intention)
Romana
Susan
the Rani
Donna as a Time Lord
Rose as a Time Lord
Martha in whiteface
Clara's splinter that got old
some random Time Lady

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Mark, I'm pretty certain the Delgado master was on his last incarnation and that's why he didn't regenerate when he became BurnVictimMaster. I'll have to check...

I'm totally with you on being glad the Cartmel Masterplan was never allowed to realize (as much as I did actually enjoy much of 7s era). Also before Ace became the Speshul Snowflake companion who was going to become a Time Lord... I don't like the Speshul Snowflake companion role that they gave to Amy and Clara and Rose ... companions are my favorite as normals who are just great people, who are friends to the Doctor and keep him in line. Ace was awesome enough as she was.

Spoiler:
Given One sometimes talked of "getting back home" like it was a nearly impossible thing that he wished for... it would not be out of place. But I think it's more like going to be a very very very long arc. And of course if he ever does find Gallifrey and returns to it, he will then remember why he stole that TARDIS eons ago and head straight back in the other direction.

Kthulhu, you forgot the White Guardian. :)

Although I like the Clara's splinter idea, I don't think 10 would have recognized her, unless he remembers her from Day of the Doctor.

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