In 3.5 i designed a Swashbuckler/fighter comobination, that eventually became a reaping mauler. It was disgustingly fun. it could go toe to toe with any monk(used spiked gauntlets)plus had some fun grappling shennanigan. If striking with an unarmed it could begin grapple for free, swing with other fist, grapple for free for the pin + strength of the earth (i think) to do d12 damage once pinned all in a single round at level 3...
Is there anything even remotely similar to crazy grappling abilities in pathfinder? I have looked but not really seen anything that would make a grappler viable with CMD/CMB rules...
tetori?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/tetori
hmm blocked here at work =( will check that thread when i get home, thanks!
Tetori its on the prd also (which I assume is available since its on the paizo.com host)
+1
Grappling druid!
Call him cuddles.
which module/book is it from? in case my dm rules it out.
I believe the Tetori archetype was introduced in Ultimate Combat.
thanks again all!
Keep in mind the errata changes if you have the book.
"The tetori monk archetype has three bonus feats that do not exist: 2nd level—Crushing Embrace; 10th level—Twin Lock; and 18th Level—Backbreaker. What feats should replace those missing feats?
Official Update: Change "2nd level—Crushing Embrace" to "2nd level—Stunning Pin"; change "10th level—Twin Lock" to "10th-level—Pinning Knockout"; and change "18th level—Backbreaker" to "18th level—Neckbreaker."
Yeah, I'm pretty sure those are listed under the d20pfsrd page for the Tetori as well.
I remember when I first got Utimate Combat and read those and spent like four hours online trying to search and find out whatever the hell Twin Lock was.
That should give you some ideas for crazy grappling builds...
LoL so did I. I had a friend who wanted to play it and sat at my house skimming through books for hours and for the first time i just shrugged my shoulders.
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That should give you some ideas for crazy grappling builds...
I have never threaded harder or better than I threaded in that thread
By a show of hands...who built a grappling Succubus Tetori Monk after that thread?
*Raises Both Hands (also built the female bear druid)*
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There are actually a few options for grapplers.
Tetori Monk
Human Tetori Monk
Str:22 (+2 racial, +1 4th, +1 8th, +2 item)
Dex:16 (+1 12th, +2 item)
Con:12
Int:10
Wis:16 (+2 item)
Cha:10
Feats:
H: Power Attack
1: Improved Grapple(T), IUS(M), Snapping Turtle Style
2: Stunning Pin(T)
3: Snapping Turtle Clutch
4:
5: Snapping Turtle Shell
6: Greater Grapple(T)
7: Weapon Focus (Grapple)
8:
9: Rapid Grappler
10: Pinning Knockout(T)
11: Pinning Rend
12:
Items: (108k WBL)
Belt - Anaconda's Coils
Hands - Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple)
body - Monk's Robe
chest - Snakeskin Tunic
neck - AoMF +2
ring - RoP +2
headband - Wisdom +2
Shoulders - Resistance +3
(This leaves a fair amount of money to play around with)
Combat:
So, this monk is all about grappling. Lets go over it
Grapple CMB: +12(lvl), +6(str), +4(feats), +2(gauntlets), +2(coils), +1(focus), +4(Grab)
So, Grapple CMB = +31 (+28 when power attacking)
Grapple CMD = 46
Full Round Grapple, Round 1
Grapple 1 +31, Establish Constrict for 1d6+6
Grapple 2 +31, Pin Target, Constrict for 1d6+6
Rapid Grapple +31, Damage, Constrict for 1d6+6, Unarmed Strike for 2d8+8, Pinning Rend: creature begins to bleed for 2d8/round
Target is denied dex and may only attempt to escape. Escape CMD is 46. Creature bleeds for 2d8
Full Round Grapple, Round 2
(Power attacking)
Grapple 1 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
Grapple 2 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
Grapple 3 +33, dmg plus constrict: 2d8+1d6+20
All damage versus Pinned targets can be doubled and applied as non-lethal, so pinned damage versus living targets will be 4d8+28 non-lethal (+1d6+6 lethal)
I just want to throw out that tetori is the only practical option at higher levels. A ring of freedom of movement gets relatively cheap eventually, and spellcasters especially hate to be grappled. Other people aren't particularly keen on it either. To that end, the Tetori is the only build I know of to be able to negate freedom of movement without having to dispell it.
Barbarians are also great grapplers
Brutal Pugilist Barbarian:
Str:21(29 while raging)
Dex:14
Con:16(24 while raging)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:10
Defenses:
HP:131 (179 while raging)
AC:20 (18 while raging)
DR 2/-
Fort: +14 (+18 while raging +25 vs. Sp and Su)
Ref: +9 (while raging +16 vs. Sp and Su)
Will: +7 (+12 while raging +19 vs. Sp and Su)
Feats:
H: IUS
1: Improved Grapple
3: Power Attack
5: Weapon Focus Grapple
7: Greater Grapple
9: Rapid Grappler
11: -
Rage Powers:
2: Animal Fury
4: Hive Totem
6: Hive Totem Resilience
8: Hive Totem Toxicity
10: Superstition
12: Strength Surge
Items: (108k WBL)
Belt - Anaconda's Coils
Hands - Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Grapple)
Armor - +2 chain shirt of brawling
neck - AoMF (Ghost Touch)
Weapon - +2 furious courageous Brass Knuckle
ring - RoP +2
headband - Headband of Havoc(Hive Totem Resilience)
Shoulders - Resistance +3
(This leaves a fair amount of money to play around with)
Combat (assumes Rage):
Grapple CMB: +37 (33 when power attacking)
Breakdown: +12 BAB, +9 Str, +4 feats, +2 gauntlets, +2 belt, +1 focus, +4 Hive totem Resilience, +1 brutal pugilist, +2 armor
Grapple CMD: 42
Breakdown: +10 base, +12 BAB, +9 Str, +2 Dex, +4 feats, +4 Hive totem Resilience, +1 brutal pugilist, -2 rage, +2 Ring
Full Round Grapple, Round 1 (power attacking)
Grapple #1: Free Animal Fury Bite +19 (1d6+8)
Grapple Check +33(+35 if bite hits), Establish Constrict for 1d6+9
Grapple #2: Free Animal Fury Bite +19 (1d6+8)
Grapple Check +33(+35 if bite hits), Pin, Constrict for 1d6+9
Rapid Grapple#3 Free Animal Fury Bite +19 (1d6+8)
Grapple Check , +33(+35 if bite hits),Damage, Constrict for 1d6+9, Brass Knuckles hit for 1d3+21
Target is denied dex and may only attempt to escape. Escape CMD is 42.
Full Round Grapple, Round 2
(Power attacking)
Bite +19 (1d6+8) Grapple 1 +38(+40), dmg plus constrict: 1d3+1d6+30
Bite +19 (1d6+8) Grapple 2 +38(+40), dmg plus constrict: 1d3+1d6+30
Bite +19 (1d6+8) Grapple 3 +38(+40), dmg plus constrict: 1d3+1d6+30
I just want to throw out that tetori is the only practical option at higher levels. A ring of freedom of movement gets relatively cheap eventually, and spellcasters especially hate to be grappled. Other people aren't particularly keen on it either. To that end, the Tetori is the only build I know of to be able to negate freedom of movement without having to dispell it.
As a barbarian, what you want to do is grab an AoMF with Ghost Touch and Phase Locking. That covers Incorporeal and all teleportation effects (including blink, shadowstep, etherealness etc.)
Then you just pick up spell sunder for anything else that might come up.
For anyone who didn't look at the barb build posted,
+2 furious courageous brass knuckles are an amazing trick.
You still have the hand free (so no -4 on grapple checks)
And when raging this becomes a +4 weapon that increases ALL morale bonuses by +2. So +2 to all saves w/superstition, +2 str +2 con +2 will saves with rage. Simply amazing.
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Barbarians are also great grapplers
Brutal Pugilist Barbarian:
** spoiler omitted **...
actually barbarians are terrible at grappling. their cmd is so low they wont be able to apply the grapple for longer then a round. then any "smart enemy" will escape via spell or magic item and there is nothing a barb can do about it.
Technically, barbarian could spell sunder it and then get ridiculous grapple checks with strength surge...
EDIT: PFFFT, ninja
here is my issue with barb grapplers. in order to spell sunder you need to have an melee attack action to sunder, then wait a round and use a standard to grapple... by then the caster is gone.
lets ignore the fact that any strength based NPC, or dex based with a good escape artist, will get away from you one their turn. yeah you can lock them down, but not pin... and you wont get any damage unless you count the constrict ability from the grappling belt.
now the tetori on the other hand will get them on the first round and lock them for the remainder of the fight, while dealing a ton of damage (less damage then the barb, but more then enough over all).
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Barbarians are also great grapplers
Brutal Pugilist Barbarian:
** spoiler omitted **...
actually barbarians are terrible at grappling. their cmd is so low they wont be able to apply the grapple for longer then a round. then any "smart enemy" will escape via spell or magic item and there is nothing a barb can do about it.
Technically, barbarian could spell sunder it and then get ridiculous grapple checks with strength surge...
EDIT: PFFFT, ninja
here is my issue with barb grapplers. in order to spell sunder you need to have an melee attack action to sunder, then wait a round and use a standard to grapple... by then the caster is gone.
lets ignore the fact that any strength based NPC, or dex based with a good escape artist, will get away from you one their turn. yeah you can lock them down, but not pin... and you wont get any damage unless you count the constrict ability from the grappling belt.
now the tetori on the other hand will get them on the first round and lock them for the remainder of the fight, while dealing a ton of damage (less damage then the barb, but more then enough over all).
Where are you getting the idea that a barb's CMD is super low? I've got a pugilist who's grapple against humaniods is broken if they roll a 20. There's a rare fighter who could break it in the 10-11 subtiers; he's a level 7 barb. Against monsters/extra-planers, well that's usually a different story but it seems to be for most people.
Regardless, on your grappler build, don't forget the dusty rose ioun stone slotted in a wayfinder and burn a feat for empyreal obedience to Falayna for a +4 grapple/+4 CMD, among other benefits.
There are actually a few options for grapplers.
Tetori Monk
** spoiler omitted **
You have a mistake as for round 1 :
You only got 1 grappe attempt - no rapid not greater at first round .
Not sure what you mean... I listed three grapples for round 1.
If you are saying that he wouldn't get three grapples, why? It was a full-round.
Grapple the target as a standard action.
Maintain as a Move action.
Maintain as a Swift.
Any check made after the initial grapple is considered a check to maintain the grapple. Though I suppose on round 2 the Monk only has to make 1 check for the first 2 grapples. The only second round caveat is that you get +5 to the check, this does NOT kick in until the second round as this is explicitly stated.
Barbarians are also great grapplers
Brutal Pugilist Barbarian:
** spoiler omitted **...
actually barbarians are terrible at grappling. their cmd is so low they wont be able to apply the grapple for longer then a round. then any "smart enemy" will escape via spell or magic item and there is nothing a barb can do about it.
Technically, barbarian could spell sunder it and then get ridiculous grapple checks with strength surge...
EDIT: PFFFT, ninja
here is my issue with barb grapplers. in order to spell sunder you need to have an melee attack action to sunder, then wait a round and use a standard to grapple... by then the caster is gone.
lets ignore the fact that any strength based NPC, or dex based with a good escape artist, will get away from you one their turn. yeah you can lock them down, but not pin... and you wont get any damage unless you count the constrict ability from the grappling belt.
now the tetori on the other hand will get them on the first round and lock them for the remainder of the fight, while dealing a ton of damage (less damage then the barb, but more then enough over all).
I just showed a lvl 12 barb grappler with an escape CMD of 42.
The monk had a 46. Not a huge disparity IMO.level 12 rogue, 24 dex, max escape artist ranks, has a +22 to escape. This drops to +20 because the -4 dex from being grappled. So he needs to roll a 20.
Sure, you will struggle to hold on to something like a Purple Worm, but so would a Tetori.
As for spells... good...luck. Even if the spell is still and silent you have to make the check to cast it. For that Barb, DC 47+Spell Level. Seriously, good luck with that.
I mean, alright, FoM is a problem. Everything has its counter. So you have to grab the caster before he gets it off. If its permanent, well then you focus on his minions or make regular attacks. That same barb can still just attack at +27/+22/+17 with power attack for 1d3+23 and a +19 bite for 1d6+8
I mean, alright, FoM is a problem. Everything has its counter. So you have to grab the caster before he gets it off. If its permanent, well then you focus on his minions or make regular attacks. That same barb can still just attack at +27/+22/+17 with power attack for...
Plus a rage power gets his fists up to a d6. which isn't as good as a l12 monk's unarmed strikes, but it's better than a d3.
Also, wouldn't a spellstoring [dispelling] AoMF take care of some of the FoM problems that tetori don't address until level 9 anyway? Moreover, if you're in good with your arcane caster, wouldn't a metamagic rod of reach and antimagic field be your friend?
Brawling is a waste of a rage power.
People tend to look at a 1d3 and think that its a problem, but in reality it is just 1.5 average damage apart from a D6.
For this same reason, a Monk's unarmed strike damage looks a lot better than it often is in reality.
By level 20 a monk is hitting for 2d10. Which is 6.5 more average damage than a longsword... easily offset by weapon training, weapon spec and a much better crit chance.
Prime example, I posted 2 builds 1 monk 1 barb, same level VERY similar equipment.
The Barbarian's fist hits for 1d3+23 (Avg = 25)
The Monk's hits for 2d8+14 (Avg = 23)
And of course the monk is far far worse at hitting, with a full attack that looks like +14/+9... pretty weak.
Both power attacking
"Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple)."
Pretty mich that right there. Every check that is not a check to initiate is a check to "maintain". Maintain is a bit of a wonky word to use considering the abilities available, but there it is. Initiate and maintain are the only two options.
The special stuff about the maintain is
1: you have to maintain once each round to keep the grapple going
2: in rounds after the first you get a +5 on these checks.
just remember even if they have freedom of movement they still have to spend the action to escape....
If you can grapple and pin them, guess what? they are hosed.
Another option for grappling is to go through whips, you can pin them with just two grapple checks fairly easily.
Nope. FoM states that any grapple attempt automatically fails.
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So it does, I just remembered the part after that and forgot about it.
All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The second line comes into play if the target receives freedom of movement after being grappled. So being hit by freedom of movement doesn't automatically drop a grapple it just means they can spend an action to automatically escape.
You can imagine a situation where a Tetori monk spends ki to negate the effect of freedom of movement then stops spending ki to maintain the effect once the target is grappled. They would have to spend their action to escape at that point rather than just having the grapple drop.
why not taking a maneuver master ?
with *2 roll, possible dirty trick as a boot, adding wis to all maneuvers he looks a lot better than tetori
Maneuver Master is only good as a dip class for other martials. It is not a good monk archtype. Why? Because the penalties for making additional maneuvers mean that te monk is just going to fail at all of them if he makes more than 1.
Flurry of Maneuvers:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
Tally that up and at level 15 you can make 3 maneuvers plus a full attack, but all those maneuvers are at -12.
The only maneuvers that make sense to use with this archtype are those that can't be made in place of an attack in the first place.
So you are starting with a +3 at level 15 for your three maneuvers. If you have a 24 strength and a 24 wisdom and 2 feats and specific gauntlets, you can get that up to a +23. Now go check out CMDs for CR 15 monsters... you are going to have a really hard time landing anything.
It might work, but I would probably just do a single level of maneuver master as a dip.
Either way it is a great dip. It just kinda sucks as an archtype for a straight up monk.
Its also a really cool dip for a grappling beast totem barb. Charge animal fury bite for free plusa grapple check plus a full attack with a single weapon then next turn maintain plus rapid grappler plus a full attack (assuming they ddon't break out)
At lvl 11 that is 3 iterative attacks 1 bite and 1 grapple round 1
Then 3 iterative attacks 2 bites and 2 grapples round 2
Sorry I mean level 12
A summoner who is built to grapple, and has the Eidolon super massive grapples.
definatly some interesting ideas here. However, i for one, NEVER take into account when designing a build. you never know if you are going to find them in loot or be able to buy them. I understand some DM's try to tailor all that stuff so characters can get what they want. Thats not realistic though, imo, and some dm's like myself when dming DEFINATLY do not do that. So thats why i discount them, tetori does seem pretty cool, and i will try one next time i am a player, just feels i am always playing a monk! lol. Last time i made a crane monk. Standard ac of 36 at level 7.....
Nope. FoM states that any grapple attempt automatically fails.just remember even if they have freedom of movement they still have to spend the action to escape....
If you can grapple and pin them, guess what? they are hosed.
Another option for grappling is to go through whips, you can pin them with just two grapple checks fairly easily.
Tetori as of level 9 negate any freedom of movement by spending 1 Ki point.
Without tvioed items ?
How ? With no items monks are the worse AC among the melle
Items during planning are a crutch imo. The monk aforementioned did have bracers of armor +3 and a NA+2 ammy, but by fighting as full defense, with all the crane feats, he was untouchable more or less, and never missed attacks himself except for <3 since he was down to only a -1 to hit.
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You don't want to crane with a grappling monk, even a tetori. Generally you want snapping turtle, mostly because it gives you free grapples (and oddly, a tetori can have multiple grapples because of this, though they can only maintain one).
Tetori is necessary if grappling is your ONLY focus, since Freedom of Movement is prevelant at high levels. The alternative is to focus on multiple (Grapple/Trip/Dirty Trick so you can do some no matter what you have)... for these builds, the Manuever Master / Lore Warden does a great job (you need that double-build just for the # of feats).
Magus / Manuever master might be good (untested), in theory, at level 8 you can dispel magic to remove their annoying effect, then start your grapple. And magus has an arcana that gives them full CMB, and Manuever master is full CMB with flurry of blows. Cast, attack, attack, grapple is a good turn :).
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You don't want to crane with a grappling monk, even a tetori. Generally you want snapping turtle, mostly because it gives you free grapples (and oddly, a tetori can have multiple grapples because of this, though they can only maintain one).
By RAW, you can have and maintain multiple grapples, but only those with Greater Grapple have the action economy to do so.
Example:
Bruno, handsome and beautiful tetori monk with Greater Grapple, is attacked by two dumbdumb Ogres.
Bruno wins initiative.
Round One
Bruno activates Turtle Style (swift). Burno moves between stupidface ogres (move). Bruno then grapples ogre #1 (standard). Realizing other dumbdumb Ogre will attack, Bruno releases one hand from grapple (free action).
Puny Ogre #1 too weak to break free. HAHA STUPID OGRE!
Clumsy Ogre #2 misses Bruno. This triggers Snapping Turtle Clutch (immediate action). Bruno grapples with a -6 penalty but succeeds! (-4 from using one hand, -2 from Snapping Turtle).
Round Two
Bruno is grappling two Ogres, one in each hand. He pins Ogre #1 with Greater Grapple (move action). He pins Ogre #2 with a normal Grapple (standard action). Both attempts were at -4 from grappling one handed.
Both Ogres pinned and cannot attack. They attempt to break free and fail.
Round Three and beyond
Bruno maintains pins with move & standard actions because he doesn't have free hand to pull out rope to tie up an ogre (because he doesn't want to let either go). Bruno simply maintains pins and chooses damage option each time, hoping to crush puny ogres to death with his manly hands.