whos your favorite empyreal lord?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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whos your favorite empyreal lord? and why ,mine is Lymnieris(god of Prostitution, rites of passage, virginity)


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My favorite is +4 to grapple and CMD with a very easy ritual.

Scarab Sages

Zohls. Or Kroina. But mainly Zohls.


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Ragathiel, because when he finally takes after his dad its gonna really screw with the side of good.

Sovereign Court

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Ragathiel, mostly because he lets his Paladin's Rage.


Ragethiel, because I envision him as Jules from Pulp Fiction delivery the lines, "There's a passage I got memorized. Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy My brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay My vengeance upon you." Now... I been sayin' that s%!~ for years. And if you ever heard it, that meant your ass. You'd be dead right now. I never gave much thought to what it meant. I just thought it was a cold-blooded thing to say to a m@%@#%!+%#@& before I popped a cap in his ass. But I saw some s*!& this mornin' made me think twice. See, now I'm thinking: maybe it means you're the evil man. And I'm the righteous man. And Mr. 9mm here... he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the valley of darkness. Or it could mean you're the righteous man and I'm the shepherd and it's the world that's evil and selfish. And I'd like that. But that s!#$ ain't the truth. The truth is you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd."

But, just without the bit about being the tyranny of evil.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Personally? Arshea, of course. :)

As for my characters, I have a Staff Magus who worships Grandmother Crow (Andoletta) and a PFS Celestial Sorcerer who is working towards being a Mystery Cultist of Soralyon (Empyreal Lord of Monuments -- my character is, of course, an Osirian)

I absolutely adore the way the Empyreal Lords have been treated...I've been having to work hard to make sure I don't have *all* of my characters follow one.

Silver Crusade

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This is hard. Really hard.

Ashava, Arshea, the Black Butterfly, Cernunnos, Irez, Lymnieris, Korada, Valani, Vildeis...

Narrowing it down is going to be tough.

Silver Crusade

Arshea for flavor for all characters who aren't pali.

Ragathiel for Celestial Obedience. (And RP if I am a pali)


I had no idea Arshea was so popular. Just made an Arshea-worshiping Sorceress (going into Mystery Cultist PrC) for WotR. She's an Edie Sedgwick type.


Really tough question honestly. I love almost all of them a great deal, mostly ones Mikaze mentioned above. I'd probably go with Vildeis (DMPC Aasimar Cleric going Holy Vindicator in my WotR campaign) at the moment, though.

*edit* Mikaze missed Dammereich (spelled possibly wrong since I don't have my book handy, but he also needs to be on there)

Silver Crusade

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Alex Cunningham wrote:
I had no idea Arshea was so popular.

I think the biggest pull is that s/he's such a positive figure, but Paizo's art department perfectly pulling off making him/her attractive to almost anyone helps too. :)


Damerrich, because there something about the reminds me of a few lines about Sam Vimes [and one he says about Carrot] that he reminds me of

'Pray you never face a good man, he will kill you with out a word.'

And I like the over all Idea of an executioner who does what he knows is lawful and right no matter what others think about it

[It also makes me want to Play a follower of his in a group with person trying to redeem Villains - and the whole time with they are trying I'm just in the background sharpening my Ax wait for the the need to put the person down]


Paladins of Arshea? i wonder what the code is

Silver Crusade

xavier c wrote:
Paladins of Arshea? i wonder what the code is

SSC and "be good to each other and for each other".


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[post-character development]

I must admit the dreams I've had involving Arshea and Lymnieris have been far more comforting than those unbidden ones involving Nocticula and Socothbenoth....

There is a certain kind of solace for troubled hearts to be found there.

[/post-character development]

Silver Crusade

Ragathiel

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
xavier c wrote:
Paladins of Arshea? i wonder what the code is

I've got one concept I've put together for an *Inquisitor* of Arshea. I think zie would be a lot of fun to play...but probably not with my current group.


Mikaze wrote:
Alex Cunningham wrote:
I had no idea Arshea was so popular.
I think the biggest pull is that s/he's such a positive figure, but Paizo's art department perfectly pulling off making him/her attractive to almost anyone helps too. :)

Where do they have art of the empyreal lords? I only know them from the Inner Sea World Guide


The Chronicle of the Righteous

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Arshea, Black Butterfly.

Contributor

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Arshea for personal reasons obviously. Makes me smile to see them in the game. :)

Black Butterfly because they're just damn cool.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Todd Stewart wrote:

Arshea for personal reasons obviously. Makes me smile to see them in the game. :)

Black Butterfly because they're just damn cool.

/fistbump


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Add another for Ragathiel.

I have a tiefling paladin of Ragathiel in a Jade Regent game.


Arshea (<3), Lymneris, Damerrich, Ragathiel, Korada, Tanagaar, Zohls.. This is a hard question!

Shadow Lodge

Arshea, to me, reads as clearly CN. I could see N, but honestly nothing about either it's write up, not it's sphere of influence/concern seem to relate to good, and kind of just comes off as more fan service. So I'm kind of interested in seeing why so many people pick it as a favorite?

Also not very attractive for someone that's supposed to be the EL of physical beauty and sexuality, in my opinion.

Shadow Lodge

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DM Beckett wrote:

Arshea, to me, reads as clearly CN. I could see N, but honestly nothing about either it's write up, not it's sphere of influence/concern seem to relate to good, and kind of just comes off as more fan service. So I'm kind of interested in seeing why so many people pick it as a favorite?

Also not very attractive for someone that's supposed to be the EL of physical beauty and sexuality, in my opinion.

Well, attractiveness is all a matter of personal preference, so there's not much to say there. Personally, I find hir hot, but I can easily see where others might not.

Do you have a hard time seeing Shelyn as Good? Pleasure and Sexuality (Arshea) is really just a more focused aspect of Love and Beauty (Shelyn). I also think that the aspect of "comforting those experiencing deep misery as a result of repression" is a key aspect of both the Good, and why those of us who respond to Arshea do so.

I wouldn't have had a problem with CG, but NG isn't that big a stretch either.


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DM Beckett wrote:

Arshea, to me, reads as clearly CN. I could see N, but honestly nothing about either it's write up, not it's sphere of influence/concern seem to relate to good, and kind of just comes off as more fan service. So I'm kind of interested in seeing why so many people pick it as a favorite?

Also not very attractive for someone that's supposed to be the EL of physical beauty and sexuality, in my opinion.

I don't see a problem with her being good. She is all about helping people embrace their sexuality and be comfortable with their bodies. She is not a purely lust focused goddess, and is generally focused only on "positive" aspects of sexuality.

Silver Crusade

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What pH unbalanced and MMCJawa said. She's not a being of self-gratification. He's a healer.

The contrast between Arshea and Calistria really illustrates how positive s/he is. Where Calistria is ultimately a selfish lover, Arshea focuses getting people to be good for others and themselves. Arshea is NG because hir concerns encompass everyone that even has a sexuality, to ensure that it remains or grows into something healthy and beautiful rather than becoming destructive. He releases people from oppression both internal and external even as she impresses upon them the need to be responsible for themselves and those they love. That's why s/he's welcome from Elysium to Heaven.

In a setting where Zon-Kuthon lures in those whose sexuality has been stigmatized to the point that he seems their only source of acceptance and release, where Calistria leaves wanting hearts unattended, where the likes of Nocticula and Socothbenoth prey upon the desperate and conflicted...Arshea honestly is a much needed force for good.

When one gets right down to it, s/he's very much in the business of saving lives and souls.


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The only complaints I got about Arsheans are the noise complaints they rack up with their Obedience rituals next door.

YEAH WE ALL NOW KNOW HE'S GOT KIND WELCOMING EYES NOW LET US GET SOME SLEEP


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Ragathiel's obedience, done every day, year in and year out... Runs a pretty real risk of depopulating entire city districts. It is kind of extreme. Celestial lord of mass murder, anyone?

Personally, Damerrich, Ghenshau and Jaidz. They deal with pretty nonstandard views of good, which is awesome. Also, Lymnieris.

Contributor

Mechanically - Chadali
Flavor - Zohls

Shadow Lodge

Mikaze wrote:

What pH unbalanced and MMCJawa said. She's not a being of self-gratification. He's a healer.

The contrast between Arshea and Calistria really illustrates how positive s/he is. Where Calistria is ultimately a selfish lover, Arshea focuses getting people to be good for others and themselves. Arshea is NG because hir concerns encompass everyone that even has a sexuality, to ensure that it remains or grows into something healthy and beautiful rather than becoming destructive. He releases people from oppression both internal and external even as she impresses upon them the need to be responsible for themselves and those they love. That's why s/he's welcome from Elysium to Heaven.

In a setting where Zon-Kuthon lures in those whose sexuality has been stigmatized to the point that he seems their only source of acceptance and release, where Calistria leaves wanting hearts unattended, where the likes of Nocticula and Socothbenoth prey upon the desperate and conflicted...Arshea honestly is a much needed force for good.

When one gets right down to it, s/he's very much in the business of saving lives and souls.

But where exactly are you getting this from? Or are you just adding in your own extra views? That's the point I was making. Not that what you said might not be true, just that from the write up and the other basic info, none of that is implied. Personal freedom is chaotic. Abandon is not good. Experiencing sex in whatever manner one desires is kind of N and can border on evil. So where is the G coming from, (in the material, not the personal preference)?

Silver Crusade

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It comes from preaching acceptance and love. Lines from her write up in Chronicles of the Righteous that reinforce her good alignment:
"comforts the repressed"
"guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon" emphasis mine as it negates your bordering on evil comment
"Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Deflectation."


Neshen
Halcomora
Immonhiel
Valani
for some reason also Rowdrosh

Having quite some fun with an inquisitor of Halcomora in Wrath of the Righteous. Basically the guy is in it to end the demonplague, drink wine and, above all, kill Deskari.

If lesser gods ever get statted up he's going after Ghlaunder

Shadow Lodge

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DM Beckett wrote:
Mikaze wrote:

What pH unbalanced and MMCJawa said. She's not a being of self-gratification. He's a healer.

...

In a setting where Zon-Kuthon lures in those whose sexuality has been stigmatized to the point that he seems their only source of acceptance and release, where Calistria leaves wanting hearts unattended, where the likes of Nocticula and Socothbenoth prey upon the desperate and conflicted...Arshea honestly is a much needed force for good.

When one gets right down to it, s/he's very much in the business of saving lives and souls.

But where exactly are you getting this from? Or are you just adding in your own extra views? That's the point I was making. Not that what you said might not be true, just that from the write up and the other basic info, none of that is implied. Personal freedom is chaotic. Abandon is not good. Experiencing sex in whatever manner one desires is kind of N and can border on evil. So where is the G coming from, (in the material, not the personal preference)?

Abandon is a really tricky word. In this context it does not involve abandoning those that depend upon you. It is referring to sexual abandon, where you release yourself into a more intuitive and pleasure-focused mindspace. It can be selfish, and it can be chaotic, but it doesn't need to be.

Cori Marie caught most of the quotes I would have used to show why Arshea is Good. Here's one that expresses why I think express why zie is not Chaotic. "Freedom matters most to the Spirit of Abandon, but not simply freedom of the body. Arshea espouses utter liberation of the soul and encourages mortals to abandon needlessly constraining beliefs."

Arshea is not about defying authority per se, only ones that do not serve a purpose. Zie is about being true to oneself. While this is a creed that certainly doesn't qualify as Lawful, and which I can see being more attractive to Chaotic worshippers, I don't think that it is Chaotic in and of itself. I wouldn't have any trouble putting together a Paladin of Arshea that followed the writeup as written. (Hint: As I said earlier, Arshea really bears a lot of resemblance to Shelyn, with the focus on Sexuality being a narrowing of her focus on Love.)

Shadow Lodge

pH unbalanced wrote:
Abandon is a really tricky word. In this context it does not involve abandoning those that depend upon you. It is referring to sexual abandon, where you release yourself into a more intuitive and pleasure-focused mindspace. It can be selfish, and it can be chaotic, but it doesn't need to be.

That's the meaning of the word I was considering as well, which is what leads me to CN.

Cori Marie wrote:
It comes from preaching acceptance and love. Lines from her write up in Chronicles of the Righteous that reinforce her good alignment: "comforts the repressed"

That's one small nugget, but it doesn't really tip anything towards virtue, in my opinion. Evil people can care about others, too, and obviously so can Neutral ones. The thing is, that's supposed to be non-existent in Golarion, right. Issues with gender identity and sexual preference, or baggage about sex.

Cori Marie wrote:
"guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon" emphasis mine as it negates your bordering on evil comment, "Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Deflectation."

Not really, no. Still kind of rings neither moral or immoral to me, since that would include arranged marriages and the like. Let me put it a different way, I can see some good being into that, but no more than I would see neutral or even evil, (as a whole), which is what makes me question why Arshea is considered good or an Empyreal Lord. There are a few that fall into that category as well.


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I'll have to say it's a toss-up between Arshea and Irez.

Arshea for all the reasons listed above. It is refreshing to have a sex positive force on the side of good, as sex in role-playing games has been labeled as a weapon in evil's corner for so long.

Irez because she appears to be a giant serpent-woman who lives in the ocean. She's a perfect example of how Paizo is creating unconventional celestials.

Korada is also worth mentioning, because I'm pumped to see his stat-up when I grab a copy of Bestiary 4.


Sissyl wrote:

Ragathiel's obedience, done every day, year in and year out... Runs a pretty real risk of depopulating entire city districts. It is kind of extreme. Celestial lord of mass murder, anyone?

Personally, Damerrich, Ghenshau and Jaidz. They deal with pretty nonstandard views of good, which is awesome. Also, Lymnieris.

You don't find hardcore Ragathiel devotees in Sandpoint, you find them fighting in the worldwound and in similar places. I also expect that The Empyreal Lords don't necessarily expect there obediences to be carried out every day, since many are situational. If you are keeping a stockyard of prisoners around to execute prisoners from every day just to have an obedience, your probably going to fall.


DM Beckett wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Abandon is a really tricky word. In this context it does not involve abandoning those that depend upon you. It is referring to sexual abandon, where you release yourself into a more intuitive and pleasure-focused mindspace. It can be selfish, and it can be chaotic, but it doesn't need to be.

That's the meaning of the word I was considering as well, which is what leads me to CN.

Cori Marie wrote:
It comes from preaching acceptance and love. Lines from her write up in Chronicles of the Righteous that reinforce her good alignment: "comforts the repressed"

That's one small nugget, but it doesn't really tip anything towards virtue, in my opinion. Evil people can care about others, too, and obviously so can Neutral ones. The thing is, that's supposed to be non-existent in Golarion, right. Issues with gender identity and sexual preference, or baggage about sex.

Cori Marie wrote:
"guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon" emphasis mine as it negates your bordering on evil comment, "Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Deflectation."
Not really, no. Still kind of rings neither moral or immoral to me, since that would include arranged marriages and the like. Let me put it a different way, I can see some good being into that, but no more than I would see neutral or even evil, (as a whole), which is what makes me question why Arshea is considered good or an Empyreal Lord. There are a few that fall into that category as well.

Than I think at this point this may simply reflect a difference between your personal beliefs and the devs

Arshea is about the positive side of sexuality and comforting those with gender issues. She isn't about rape, cheating, or shirking responsibilities for sex. I don't see why such a goddess would be neutral.

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DM Beckett wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Abandon is a really tricky word. In this context it does not involve abandoning those that depend upon you. It is referring to sexual abandon, where you release yourself into a more intuitive and pleasure-focused mindspace. It can be selfish, and it can be chaotic, but it doesn't need to be.

That's the meaning of the word I was considering as well, which is what leads me to CN.

You should be using the listed alignment to interpret the writeup just as much as you use the writeup to interpret the alignment. So obviously, Arshea embodies the NG aspects of sexuality and pleasure. When you come to something like Abandon which is often, but not necessarily, Chaotic, you should assume that the Chaotic parts are not the ones being emphasized. This is the non-selfish, partner-focused, self-accepting version of abandon.

If you can't imagine that, how about this analogy: Meditation is often considered Lawful, but Korada is NG. Abandon and Meditation are very similar in this context, as both are 'heightened' states of consciousness.

Shadow Lodge

pH unbalanced wrote:

You should be using the listed alignment to interpret the writeup just as much as you use the writeup to interpret the alignment. So obviously, Arshea embodies the NG aspects of sexuality and pleasure. When you come to something like Abandon which is often, but not necessarily, Chaotic, you should assume that the Chaotic parts are not the ones being emphasized. This is the non-selfish, partner-focused, self-accepting version of abandon.

If you can't imagine that, how about this analogy: Meditation is often considered Lawful, but Korada is NG. Abandon and Meditation are very similar in this context, as both are 'heightened' states of consciousness.

Maybe. I'm trying less to argue and more to understand, honestly. Meditation requires discipline, so yes Lawful, but the true meaning of meditation is to consider deeply, to ponder, and in that aspect of the word I can see Korada going either way. But, the thing about Korada is that according to the book, Korada preaches peace, refuses to strike lethal blows so that he (his followers) can offer redemption, and believe that it is the struggle to do good and make a difference that matters. It shows why Korada is good whereas, in my opinion, Arshea does not and just labels "it" as such without backing anything up.

MMCJawa wrote:
Than I think at this point this may simply reflect a difference between your personal beliefs and the devs.

Maybe. Like I said, from what's actually written and shown, I just don't see it, and I'm trying to understand. To me, it seems like a deity that elves and kender might really dig as their cultures tend to lead to a lot of "free love". Free from the constraints of social ethical or moral constraints, but not to the point of say Urgotha who is more about nothing is sacred and do/take what you want. Arshea does find mutual consent important, for example, but I wouldn't say that makes her good as much as not evil.


Arshea should be alignment BM. Of course.


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DM Beckett wrote:
To me, it seems like a deity that elves and kender might really dig as their cultures tend to lead to a lot of "free love". Free from the constraints of social ethical or moral constraints, but not to the point of say Urgotha who is more about nothing is sacred and do/take what you want. Arshea does find mutual consent important, for example, but I wouldn't say that makes her good as much as not evil.

Given the quotes listed previously, & your quotes which I have emboldened, I have to state the opinion that yes, you are trying to argue. Cori & others have clearly pointed out that Arshea's code does have moral & ethical constraints, yet you are trying to say that it doesn't. Where is your evidence to counter theirs?

Shadow Lodge

. . .

Silver Crusade

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DM Beckett wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Abandon is a really tricky word. In this context it does not involve abandoning those that depend upon you. It is referring to sexual abandon, where you release yourself into a more intuitive and pleasure-focused mindspace. It can be selfish, and it can be chaotic, but it doesn't need to be.

That's the meaning of the word I was considering as well, which is what leads me to CN.

Cori Marie wrote:
It comes from preaching acceptance and love. Lines from her write up in Chronicles of the Righteous that reinforce her good alignment: "comforts the repressed"

That's one small nugget, but it doesn't really tip anything towards virtue, in my opinion. Evil people can care about others, too, and obviously so can Neutral ones. The thing is, that's supposed to be non-existent in Golarion, right. Issues with gender identity and sexual preference, or baggage about sex.

Cori Marie wrote:
"guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon" emphasis mine as it negates your bordering on evil comment, "Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Deflectation."
Not really, no. Still kind of rings neither moral or immoral to me, since that would include arranged marriages and the like. Let me put it a different way, I can see some good being into that, but no more than I would see neutral or even evil, (as a whole), which is what makes me question why Arshea is considered good or an Empyreal Lord. There are a few that fall into that category as well.

Where has it been said that issues with gender identity and sexual preference don't exist in Golarion? There was a homophobic NPC in Rise of the Runelords. The two trans* NPCs in Reign of Winter and Wrath of the Righteous clearly demonstrate that there ARE gender identity issues as well.

Shadow Lodge

That the persecution and related baggage of those things do not exit in Golarion. ie according to pretty much every Paizo official, being homosexual, transgender, or whathaveyou is perfectly accepted in the world, as they have never had Christianity or puritanical movements, so no on blinks an eye. It's a bit off topic, though, and like I said, my goal I not to start an argument, but rather to see what makes Arshea count as NG rather than CN, which also, more importantly, means a big difference in her followers (who could still be CG mind you).


DM Beckett wrote:
That the persecution and related baggage of those things do not exit in Golarion. ie according to pretty much every Paizo official, being homosexual, transgender, or whathaveyou is perfectly accepted in the world, as they have never had Christianity or puritanical movements, so no on blinks an eye. It's a bit off topic, though, and like I said, my goal I not to start an argument, but rather to see what makes Arshea count as NG rather than CN, which also, more importantly, means a big difference in her followers (who could still be CG mind you).

For the transgender folk, at least, even if people accept them as transgender, there's still the issue of whether or not they have the ability to transition (assuming they want to transition). That's not necessarily easy to come by, as Irabeth and Anevia's story demonstrates, and might be beyond the means of many non-adventuring trans people (and possibly some adventuring trans people as well, as was initially the case with Anevia).

I don't have Chronicle of the Righteous, so what I know of Arshea is from the Inner Sea World Guide and what others have posted on the board, but at the very least, I can see such people in Golarion being in need of comfort, which Arshea might provide. That, to me, seems good.

Regarding there being no one in Golarion who has a problem with homosexuality, there's this recent post. I'd guess there's others like it if one searched.

Maybe there's a difference in the degree to which homophobia is present? I thought the religious argument had more to do with it not being institutionalized within the religious infrastructure of Golarion, which contributes to it being less pervasive than it is in the real world. And homophobia is not embedded in the underlying, metaphysical reality of the world (i.e. a paladin can be gay, or have gay friends). Not quite the same thing as being non-existent.

That's my understanding, at least. I may be wrong about that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Again, homophobic NPCs existed as early as Adventure Path #1, the FIRST Golarion product. "The Scarnettis, easily Sandpoint's most conservative and least open-minded family, claim to find the rumors of this relationship scandalous and offensive, but it's unclear whether they're more offended by the relationship itself or by the fact that the majority of Sandpoint is so accepting of it." So how is that perfectly accepted? It may be more accepted than it is in our world, but there are still people that don't.

Shadow Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
"guides mortals to experience love and sexuality in whatever manner they desire, provided the experience is harmless or mutually agreed upon" emphasis mine as it negates your bordering on evil comment, "Individuals experiencing deep misery as a result of repression or yearning will sometimes find a soft gray feather, jeweled bangle, or scrap of gossamer fabric on their beds as a sign of hope from the Host of Deflectation."
Not really, no. Still kind of rings neither moral or immoral to me, since that would include arranged marriages and the like.

If one of the parties in the arranged marriage is unhappy with the situation, it's not mutually agreed upon by the lovers themselves (even if the arrangers agree) so it's exactly the sort of thing Arshea would oppose.

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