
Eric Griffith |
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So my one character is a 15th level Zen Archer (Monk archetype, APG)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/zen-archer
Weapon is a +5 Adaptive Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow
Attack / Damage Relevant feats:
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
My to hit chart:
Bow: +5
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Dexterity: +7
Weapon Focus: +1
Point Blank Shot: +1
Deadly Aim: -3
(Total +26 / +23 with deadly aim)
My to damage chart:
Bow: +5*
Strength: +3*
Weapon Spec: +2*
Point Blank Shot: +1*
Deadly Aim: +6*
Total: +17
Ki Arrows lets me change my damage dice of my arrows to that of my unarmed damage (15th level monk + Monk's Robes means my unarmed damage is 2d10*)
Holy is +2d6
Means each arrow is 2d10+2d6+17
All of the above marked with "*" Is crit-multipled, no?
So on a crit my damage becomes 6d10+2d6+51 per attack.
Flurry of blows gives me the attacks:
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
If I haste (via boots of speed) its instead:
+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
Perfect Strike makes me hitting on one of those two +15's pretty likely
So let's assume all but one attack hits, but no crits (pretty likely talking from experience)
I'm doing 12d10+12d6+102 per round.
I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?

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Looks about right. About 200 damage per round, all together if you hit on all but one attack. You're a well equipped, well built, damage dealer with the strongest fighting style available and one of the best archetypes (if not the best archetype) for your class.
In other words, you're all in on one trick. Why shouldn't you be good at it?
As to broken, in another thread people have posted level 20, core only, fighters and monks. Those would be APL +4 for your party. A boss fight in other words. The lowest of those characters had an AC of 41 meaning you'd need a 15 to hit with your best attacks. The top AC build was 51, which would be nat 20's for you, even without deadly aim. So if the DM is wanting to throw a boss fight at you, it isn't difficult at all. So no, not broken.

deuxhero |
And the average CR15 is officially AC 30 while CR20 is AC36. On average you miss half the time on your best shots, and that's before terrain/cover or temporary boosts work against you.
Your GM is one one of those that instantly thinks something is overpowered if the one thing it can do is done very well in the right circumstances.

Dunbar Exodus III |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character. But nevertheless, that is the DM's concern, as to the rules, they are all fair provided you have all the Feat pre-requisites you needed to have those abilities. Damage is appropriate for the weapon/level. You are a one trick pony, but man what a pony!!!

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The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character. But nevertheless, that is the DM's concern, as to the rules, they are all fair provided you have all the Feat pre-requisites you needed to have those abilities. Damage is appropriate for the weapon/level. You are a one trick pony, but man what a pony!!!
The bow is only +8 with a couple extra +gp. (That a +10 bow might be eschewing things was my first thought as well.)

Eric Griffith |
The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character. But nevertheless, that is the DM's concern, as to the rules, they are all fair provided you have all the Feat pre-requisites you needed to have those abilities. Damage is appropriate for the weapon/level. You are a one trick pony, but man what a pony!!!
+8, not +10. Adaptive and Imperverious are static cost enhancements, not +1's. As to the cost... the ONLY thing I have to spend money on is my bow. I don't need armor (ignoring bracers of armor) or shields or other weapons. With the bumps from the monk level and adding my wisdom to my AC I don't even bother upping my Natural armor and rings of protection, I just wait till we find upgrades.

Eric Griffith |
If your damage is 'on par with that of a Fighter-Archer or Archery Ranger', does that mean he thinks those are also overpowered? Or does he just think that for some reason you have to be worse than them?
I haven't done the math specifically for the fighter Archer, I just know that since he's the only other class with access to the Weapon Spec feats (plus the class bonuses to damage and to hit) he is the only one that could come CLOSE to my damage output.
The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.

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Zhayne wrote:If your damage is 'on par with that of a Fighter-Archer or Archery Ranger', does that mean he thinks those are also overpowered? Or does he just think that for some reason you have to be worse than them?I haven't done the math specifically for the fighter Archer, I just know that since he's the only other class with access to the Weapon Spec feats (plus the class bonuses to damage and to hit) he is the only one that could come CLOSE to my damage output.
The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.
Actually the fighter's going to out damage you, not because he's going to have a bigger damage bonus on paper, but because he's going to have a bigger to hit bonus. (Of course, here I'm talking about actual average damage across multiple encounters, not just "if X attacks hit".)
And instant enemy allows the ranger's damage to be constant and consistent at will. (Especially with a couple pearls of power.)

Orfamay Quest |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Well, that's what the Instant Enemy spell is for.
A more serious problem is that anything that protects against arrows renders you useless. Which is the main issue with a one-trick pony. As DE3 put it, "what a pony!" But like all one-trick ponies, it will be very easy for the GM to completely shut you down if he so chooses.

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Also, as someone else pointed out on another thread, there are some pretty low level spells that will render your entire damage output irrelevant, So it's a one trick pony who has put a lot of damage into something that will work great 90% of the time, which implies he may not have a lot left for the rest of the time. (I don't think seeking bypasses wind wall, since wind wall is not a miss chance, it is an auto miss. right?)

mplindustries |

Your damage looks fine--pretty much where I'd expect an end game archer to be. As someone mentioned, a core only fighter archer was rocking about 275 DPR at 20th, so you're doing great.
However, I want to point out that spending your Ki to make your arrows deal unnarmed damage is always worse than spending that ki to make another attack.

Eric Griffith |
Your damage looks fine--pretty much where I'd expect an end game archer to be. As someone mentioned, a core only fighter archer was rocking about 275 DPR at 20th, so you're doing great.
However, I want to point out that spending your Ki to make your arrows deal unnarmed damage is always worse than spending that ki to make another attack.
We weren't sure if +Attack from Ki and +Attack from haste would stack, and instead of having that argument with my DM I just decided to take the other damage

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However, I want to point out that spending your Ki to make your arrows deal unnarmed damage is always worse than spending that ki to make another attack.
This isn't actually true. His ki point is gaining him 6 points of damage per hit. If 6 arrows hit out of his volley, then he has gained more damage from the ki point increasing the damage of his arrows than he would have if he had spent the ki point to gain an extra attack.
Normally, however, when you're not getting 6 hits out of 7, then is when spending the ki for the extra attack is better.

Nicos |
The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.
At 15th level the ranger have 4 favored enemis at +8,+6,+4,+2. I am not sure But I will bet that the ranger is on par with you with his +4 favored enemy and ahead witht his +8,+6 enemies.
And, at least 2 times at day, he can use the absurdly good instant enemy to outdamage you against any enemy.

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The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character. But nevertheless, that is the DM's concern, as to the rules, they are all fair provided you have all the Feat pre-requisites you needed to have those abilities. Damage is appropriate for the weapon/level. You are a one trick pony, but man what a pony!!!
Yeah the bow is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond WBL

Glutton |

Chris O'Reilly wrote:I think when you flurry deadly aim should be -4/+8. Theres a FAQ somewhere that says you use your improved BAB to calculate those things when you flurry.I don't recall seeing that, I'd be most interested if you could find it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o72
To the OP: you're fine, however is this is a Paizo made adventure you're probably destroying it, most things can't handle what you're doing.

Zark |

Eric Griffith wrote:The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.At 15th level the ranger have 4 favored enemis at +8,+6,+4,+2. I am not sure But I will bet that the ranger is on par with you with his +4 favored enemy and ahead witht his +8,+6 enemies.
And, at least 2 times at day, he can use the absurdly good instant enemy to outdamage you against any enemy.
No, it is:
+8, +2, +2, +2, or+6, +4, +2, +2, or
+4, +4 +4, +2.
"At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2."
my bold.

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ShadowcatX wrote:Chris O'Reilly wrote:I think when you flurry deadly aim should be -4/+8. Theres a FAQ somewhere that says you use your improved BAB to calculate those things when you flurry.I don't recall seeing that, I'd be most interested if you could find it.http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o72
To the OP: you're fine, however is this is a Paizo made adventure you're probably destroying it, most things can't handle what you're doing.
Thank you. :)

ShoulderPatch |

I'll preface this by saying I don't think the OP build or damage is overpowered as is, but I did have a question on the bow.
WBL use to have a 2nd rule, something about "no more than 50% on one item", is that rule still in PF? (I can't open the PRD from here to see if it carried from 3.5)
If so, and going off memory so this is all only IIRC, Level 15 is 240 or 250k, a +8(+) bow would be over that... at something like 125k for the base +8, then + the extras on the bow on top of that.

Nicos |
I'll preface this by saying I don't think the OP build or damage is overpowered as is, but I did have a question on the bow.
WBL use to have a 2nd rule, something about "no more than 50% on one item", is that rule still in PF? (I can't open the PRD from here to see if it carried from 3.5)
If so, and going off memory so this is all only IIRC, Level 15 is 240 or 250k, a +8(+) bow would be over that... at something like 125k for the base +8, then + the extras on the bow on top of that.
THE wbl is a guideline, not rules.

Nicos |
Nicos wrote:Eric Griffith wrote:The archery ranger vs his favored enemy is reasoned away with the fact that his damage only becomes ridiculous WHEN fighting that ONE enemy type. Its not constant. My damage is CONSTANT and CONSISTENT.At 15th level the ranger have 4 favored enemis at +8,+6,+4,+2. I am not sure But I will bet that the ranger is on par with you with his +4 favored enemy and ahead witht his +8,+6 enemies.
And, at least 2 times at day, he can use the absurdly good instant enemy to outdamage you against any enemy.
No, it is:
+8, +2, +2, +2, or
+6, +4, +2, +2, or
+4, +4 +4, +2."At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +2."
my bold.
seems reasonable.

Eric Griffith |
I'll preface this by saying I don't think the OP build or damage is overpowered as is, but I did have a question on the bow.
WBL use to have a 2nd rule, something about "no more than 50% on one item", is that rule still in PF? (I can't open the PRD from here to see if it carried from 3.5)
If so, and going off memory so this is all only IIRC, Level 15 is 240 or 250k, a +8(+) bow would be over that... at something like 125k for the base +8, then + the extras on the bow on top of that.
This campaign started at level 1, not 15. I didn't spend the entire allotment of my WBL on the bow, it gradually got better and better.

Grizzly the Archer |

@eric, your numbers are slightly off for the attacks. For a zen archer they get to use their wisdom at 3rd level to attack when using a bow. And also, when using a flurry, they have their bab equal to their level (level 15=bab15) minus the -2 penalty for the TWF esque like flurry.
So base flurry: 13/13/8/8/3/3
+wisdom, +1 weapon focus +5 bow, point blank shot +1, -3 deadly aim, (+7 wisdom modifier minimum at 15th)
Total: +27/27/22/22/17/17... Or +24/24/19/19/14/14 with deadly aim.

Eric Griffith |
@eric, your numbers are slightly off for the attacks. For a zen archer they get to use their wisdom at 3rd level to attack when using a bow. And also, when using a flurry, they have their bab equal to their level (level 15=bab15) minus the -2 penalty for the TWF esque like flurry.
So base flurry: 13/13/8/8/3/3
+wisdom, +1 weapon focus +5 bow, point blank shot +1, -3 deadly aim, (+7 wisdom modifier minimum at 15th)
Total: +27/27/22/22/17/17... Or +24/24/19/19/14/14 with deadly aim.
GET TO use wisdom. Not HAVE TO. My wisdom is one modifier lower than my dex so I stick with my dex.

Avh |

So my one character is a 15th level Zen Archer (Monk archetype, APG)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/zen-archerWeapon is a +5 Adaptive Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow
As others said : that's a bit high for your level. But let's do with it.
Attack / Damage Relevant feats:
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Good list, I guess.
My to hit chart:
Bow: +5
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Dexterity: +7
Weapon Focus: +1
Point Blank Shot: +1
Deadly Aim: -3(Total +26 / +23 with deadly aim)
Average attack bonus. I'll come back to it further.
Means each arrow is 2d10+2d6+17
All of the above marked with "*" Is crit-multipled, no?
So on a crit my damage becomes 6d10+2d6+51 per attack.
Yes.
Flurry of blows gives me the attacks:
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
If I haste (via boots of speed) its instead:
+25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
Perfect Strike makes me hitting on one of those two +15's pretty likely
So let's assume all but one attack hits, but no crits (pretty likely talking from experience)
I'm doing 12d10+12d6+102 per round.
That's where it falls apart. A standard CR 15 encounter have 30 AC (it goes from 28 to 37 or something). So with +25, you have 80% hit chance, 55% with +20 and 30% with +15. So that's not 6 attacks per round that hit, but something like 4. And that's against something your level.
Against a boss encounter, you will be lucky if even 1 or 2 reach their goal.
With this in mind, you can reduce your DPR by a huge chunk (I won't calculate it right now, I'm tired).
I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?
When you calculate your DPR appropriatly, and use a bow for your level, that's not that impressive. Actually, that's just less than average.

Nicos |
lets compare against a fighter with a +5 composite speed adaptative longbow
attack
+15 BAB
+3 Weapon training
+2 weapon focus
+5 bow
+1 point blank shot
+8 dex
-4 deadly aim
-2 rapid shot
=+28/+28/+28/+23/+18 (+30/+30/+30/+25/+25 with gloves of dueling)
Damage
+5 Bow
+3 Weapon training
+8 deadly aim
+4 weapon specialization
+ 3 str
+1 Ponit blank shot
= 24 (26 with gloves of dueling)
So the attack routine is
+28/+28/+28/+23/+18 (1d8+24 19-20/x3)
or with gloves of dueling
+30/+30/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+26 19-20/x3)
And do not foget that with manyshot the fighter do double damage in the first shot. So 4 arrows are shoted at +30 and only fail with a 1.
=================
Can somebody calculate the DPR?

aceDiamond |

Is anyone aware of Fickle Winds or Winds of Vengeance? Seems like, as impressive as this build is, there are limits.

Eric Griffith |
You are 15th level.
Remind him that you can auto-kill if the enemy fails a fort save.
An equal level opponent is going to have 220 hit points and do 70 damage on a singe attack if it moves.
It is all about perspective.
That attack is a touch attack, though in 2 levels I can deliver it through an arrow lol

Ravingdork |

I noticed some minor problems in your math.
So my one character is a 15th level Zen Archer (Monk archetype, APG)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-a rchetypes/zen-archer <-- added live linkWeapon is a +5 Adaptive Impervious Seeking Holy Composite Longbow
Attack / Damage Relevant feats:
Deadly Aim
Clustered Shots
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Improved CriticalMy to hit chart:
Bow: +5
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Dexterity: +7
Weapon Focus: +1
Point Blank Shot: +1
Deadly Aim: -3(Total +25 / +22 with deadly aim) <-- Your math was a little off, so I fixed it.
My to damage chart:
Bow: +5*
Strength: +3*
Weapon Spec: +2*
Point Blank Shot: +1*
Deadly Aim: +6*Total: +17
Ki Arrows lets me change my damage dice of my arrows to that of my unarmed damage (15th level monk + Monk's Robes means my unarmed damage is 2d10*)
Holy is +2d6
Means each arrow is 2d10+2d6+17
All of the above marked with "*" Is crit-multipled, no?
So on a crit my damage becomes 6d10+2d6+51 per attack.
Flurry of blows gives me the attacks:
+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15
If I haste (via boots of speed) its instead:
+26/+26/+26/+22/+22/+16/+16 <-- Minor fix: Haste adds +1 to hit.
Perfect Strike makes me hitting on one of those two +16's pretty likely
So let's assume all but one attack hits, but no crits (pretty likely talking from experience)
I'm doing 12d10+12d6+102 per round.
I agree with my DM that it is horrendously over powered damage, on par with that of a Fighter -- Archer Archetype, or a ranged Ranger vs his main favored enemy, but what I'm mainly concerned about is: is it all legal and correct?
It is not broken. An archer should be able to clear ~250 damage/round at 15th-level. I'm going to leave it to others to check your legality as I've never played a Zen Archer before.

Nuclearsunburn |

ShoulderPatch wrote:This campaign started at level 1, not 15. I didn't spend the entire allotment of my WBL on the bow, it gradually got better and better.I'll preface this by saying I don't think the OP build or damage is overpowered as is, but I did have a question on the bow.
WBL use to have a 2nd rule, something about "no more than 50% on one item", is that rule still in PF? (I can't open the PRD from here to see if it carried from 3.5)
If so, and going off memory so this is all only IIRC, Level 15 is 240 or 250k, a +8(+) bow would be over that... at something like 125k for the base +8, then + the extras on the bow on top of that.
There's no "rule" about 50% on one item, it's a guideline. It's a GOOD guideline too, and your DM has erred if they were trying to adhere to it. A 15th level character should have 244,000 by the WBL chart, and a +8 weapon is worth 128,000, plus your two static enchantments which brings it to 132,000. So you're sitting a bit over 50% on that bow... WBL isn't really a guideline for how you spend your cash, it's "This is what a character's total gear value should be regardless of how their gear got better." Still, as the previous posters have said, you're using an optimized character using the best combat style in PF, so it's not surprising that his encounter design is straining at the seams. It would be even with a +7 weapon instead of a +8.

Havoq |

With one round of self buffing. 210,000 gold in items...quickly choosen.
Half-Orc Oracle[Wood] (Dual-Cursed Oracle) 15
N Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception -1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 33, touch 23, flat-footed 25 (+10 armor, +6 Dex, +3 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 108 (15d8+30)
Fort +13, Ref +21, Will +15; +4 Competence bonus vs. disease
Immune disease, nauseated, sickened; Resist oracle's curses (legalistic, wasting)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +4 Corrosive Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +4) +29/+29/+24/+19 (1d8+23+1d6 acid/19-20/x3)
Oracle (Dual-Cursed Oracle) Spells Known (CL 15):
7 (4/day) Full Caster spell list!
6 (6/day) Full Caster spell list!
5 (6/day) Full Caster spell list!
4 (7/day) Full Caster spell list!
3 (7/day) Full Caster spell list!
2 (7/day) Full Caster spell list!
1 (7/day) Full Caster spell list!
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14/18, Dex 21/25, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14/18
Base Atk +11; CMB +21; CMD 38
Feats Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Improved Critical (Longbow), Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Precise Shot.
Traits Fate's Favored, Hunter's Eye (Longbow)
Skills Bluff +0, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +0, Intimidate +6; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ mysteries (wood), revelations (fortune [2/day], lignification [7 rds] [2/day] [dc 21], misfortune, speak with wood [15 minutes/day], thorn burst [7d6] [4/day] [dc 21], wood bond +4, woodland stride), woodland stride
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day); Other Gear +5 Mithral Kikko armor, +4 Corrosive Darkwood Composite longbow (Str +4), Arrows (20), Blunt arrows (20), Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +4), Bracers of archery, greater, Cloak of resistance +5, Efficient quiver (empty), Handy haversack (2 @ 29.86 lbs), Headband of alluring charisma +4, Ring of protection +3, Oracle's kit, 43 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Giant list of things...
And Sean FitzSimon said Oracles don't make good archers. :P
And I think I could improve it with more thought...
Anyhow, I think it shows that the Monk/Archer is just fine.

Rickmeister |

Dunbar Exodus III wrote:The only Thing I would question is the possession of a +10 Composite Bow. Its definitely outside of the Item Level for a lv15 character.Yeah the bow is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond WBL
Exactly. At level 15 your WBL should be about 240.000 gold. Calculating that about 25% should go to weapons, it should be below the 60.000 gp mark. If going for "But it's my main weapon, I don't need armor" etc than we could bump it up to 35-40% (in my humble opinion) you end up at 96.000 gold.
A "regular" +8 equivalent weapon adds +128.000 to your weapon, without counting base cost, masterwork, and impervious and adaptive.
...
Oh, I open the floor to the flame war on "WBL" but I as a DM adhere to it rather strictly every odd level, and it has helped the mood a lot, and even made some encounters eeasier because someone bought a Feather token coz it was funny, that eventually saved a(n important) life.

Nuclearsunburn |

Exactly. At level 15 your WBL should be about 240.000 gold. Calculating that about 25% should go to weapons, it should be below the 60.000 gp mark. If going for "But it's my main weapon, I don't need armor" etc than we could bump it up to 35-40% (in my humble opinion) you end up at 96.000 gold.
A "regular" +8 equivalent weapon adds +128.000 to your weapon, without counting base cost, masterwork, and impervious and adaptive.
...
Oh, I open the floor to the flame war on "WBL" but I as a DM adhere to it rather strictly every odd level, and it has helped the mood a lot, and even made some encounters eeasier because someone bought a Feather token coz it was funny, that eventually saved a(n important) life.
Going 25% to weapons sounds like an even better guideline to me than the "no more than 50% to one item" that's in the Core book. But the answer to the OP is technically yes, it's legal, since the WBL is a guideline and not a rule. (At least the bow is legal, I'll leave the feats and combat math alone) It's just slightly over the 50% on one item guideline.