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Yeah, I think the table's expectation is the point. In that game the latter bolded statement may not be the case. (I've played in games where the player actions are sometimes determined by the DM - it's not my preferred style, but it's not wrong).We were at that point where the GM knows us well enough to pull things like that. We had that level of trust. I wouldn't have mentioned it as story without some complaining if it was bad. We still remember that and laugh. If you guys react so strongly to possible GM controlling when it isn't even your game and we're all happy, just wow.I'm glad to hear everyone enjoyed the scene. That doesn't change the fact the GM changed what the player did of his own volition.
Now the GM was certainly entitled to have the player roll the relevant social skill to gauge the woman's reaction, but the characters action is the player's job and his alone.
It is wrong. It may also have been harmless, even funny, everyone may have had a blast. But it was still wrong. It's good that no one had hurt feelings. All GMs make mistakes and this time the mistake didn't upset anyone... in fact they had fun with it. But it could have gone so much worse.
It's nice to see someone step up and tell you that you're doing it wrong. Just to be safe, from now on you should check with Aranna before doing anything to make sure you're doing it right.
Well to me and my rl group when we read the Stat reference for when a player has a intelligence if 6-7 (dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounced words)
And that's from the paizo core book so we used that as a reference point for how a character can sound / act with a stat that is low
Or when you have a intelligence of 18 your a genius
So that would be your default role play setting as you talk with out a skill roll. So if a player dose make a skill check and rolls high yes even with a low stat they sound/do what they say how that state it.
So even if you have a 18+stat and roll low you sound/act as the gm decided how badly you fail by. So with a natural 1 , even on a skill check of trying to be stealthy natural 1 you stomp around, or nat 1 on diplomacy you scream or burp into the npcs face lol
Shouldn't the skill (and maybe the final total?) matter more to this than the stat?
If I've got a 6 Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, am I always rude?
If I've got a 18+ Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, so even with a natural 1, I still get over 20 on the check, do I burp in the npcs face?I don't mind a little of this kind of thing, but it's got to be used carefully. Failures like that should be tied to how the player wants the bad stat/skill to be portrayed or you wind up with the GM determining parts of the characters personality.
Do you often see barbarians with 6 Int and 9 Cha put 15 ranks into Diplomacy? I can't say I've ever seen someone dump their mental stats then load up their penalized skills to make up for it. But I'll admit I haven't played in every game everywhere.
Well to me and my rl group when we read the Stat reference for when a player has a intelligence if 6-7 (dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounced words)
And that's from the paizo core book so we used that as a reference point for how a character can sound / act with a stat that is low
Or when you have a intelligence of 18 your a genius
So that would be your default role play setting as you talk with out a skill roll. So if a player dose make a skill check and rolls high yes even with a low stat they sound/do what they say how that state it.
So even if you have a 18+stat and roll low you sound/act as the gm decided how badly you fail by. So with a natural 1 , even on a skill check of trying to be stealthy natural 1 you stomp around, or nat 1 on diplomacy you scream or burp into the npcs face lol
Shouldn't the skill (and maybe the final total?) matter more to this than the stat?
If I've got a 6 Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, am I always rude?
If I've got a 18+ Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, so even with a natural 1, I still get over 20 on the check, do I burp in the npcs face?I don't mind a little of this kind of thing, but it's got to be used carefully. Failures like that should be tied to how the player wants the bad stat/skill to be portrayed or you wind up with the GM determining parts of the characters personality.
As I said when you look at the reference point paizo used as to what a high or low Stat is comparable to is what should let a player k nm own what that low Stat would mean. As to the natural 1 (crit fail) I only try to use this in my rl games with friends for yes by raw you can't auto fail a skill check but we find it funny when you do makes you really hate your Dice when you roll that 1, and allows the party to have fun with it. I don't do this with a new group for I don't know them and some people get really upset about that.
But Yes If You Have A INTELEGENCE Of 6 Your Default Mode Is As the reference Point that paizo used. But a good roll (as long as it's not a nat 1) can and should superceded a bad stat.
With that if your not rolling then your default model is the reference point 18+ int. Super smart 6 int kind of a dummy...
On occasion, though not usually that extreme - high int and low Cha might well have points in at least one social skill.Do you often see barbarians with 6 Int and 9 Cha put 15 ranks into Diplomacy? I can't say I've ever seen someone dump their mental stats then load up their penalized skills to make up for it. But I'll admit I haven't played in every game everywhere.Well to me and my rl group when we read the Stat reference for when a player has a intelligence if 6-7 (dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounced words)
And that's from the paizo core book so we used that as a reference point for how a character can sound / act with a stat that is low
Or when you have a intelligence of 18 your a genius
So that would be your default role play setting as you talk with out a skill roll. So if a player dose make a skill check and rolls high yes even with a low stat they sound/do what they say how that state it.
So even if you have a 18+stat and roll low you sound/act as the gm decided how badly you fail by. So with a natural 1 , even on a skill check of trying to be stealthy natural 1 you stomp around, or nat 1 on diplomacy you scream or burp into the npcs face lol
Shouldn't the skill (and maybe the final total?) matter more to this than the stat?
If I've got a 6 Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, am I always rude?
If I've got a 18+ Cha, but 15 ranks in Diplomacy, so even with a natural 1, I still get over 20 on the check, do I burp in the npcs face?I don't mind a little of this kind of thing, but it's got to be used carefully. Failures like that should be tied to how the player wants the bad stat/skill to be portrayed or you wind up with the GM determining parts of the characters personality.
Ok, but since we're not talking about high Int characters that's irrelevant. I'd be totally surprised to see a low Int character put his one skill point into Diplomacy.
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As an ex once told me, "I think you meant to say imply."If it hurts your brain let massage them for you... So deliciously tender...such a tiny snak........
;-)
Did you just use improper grammar and a misspelled word to infer that someone else was dumb? Even as a joke, the subtext of that is pretty humorous.
Based on your previous posts I've seen, Doc, I'm going with intentional, and for that I must say bravo. *golf clap* Well played satire.
So I'm old enough to both remember when this was a running joke in Cerebus, and to remember when Cerebus was worth reading.
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Well to me and my rl group when we read the Stat reference for when a player has a intelligence if 6-7 (dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounced words)
Have you never gamed with a low Int real life person before? They sound just like everyone else does... with the exception that they either avoid big words or misuse them and they tend to settle into unskilled or low skilled positions in life. Their vocabulary isn't "Raaarrggh!" that is an animal. Low Int people sound like everyone else, to suggest otherwise is insulting in the extreme... to enforce otherwise IS wrong. Asking where a Goblin camp is isn't using any big words nor is it a complicated request such talk is well within the capabilities of someone who has chosen to play slow or dull witted.
Do you often see barbarians with 6 Int and 9 Cha put 15 ranks into Diplomacy? I can't say I've ever seen someone dump their mental stats then load up their penalized skills to make up for it. But I'll admit I haven't played in every game everywhere.
I have seen it both in practice and in theory crafting builds... though not with the Barbarian class I will admit.
It's nice to see someone step up and tell you that you're doing it wrong. Just to be safe, from now on you should check with Aranna before doing anything to make sure you're doing it right.
~grins~
Wise advice indeed.Though if your players are fine with it who am I to say it's wrong in your group. In other groups however the warning stands.
Do you enforce ALL stats I wonder? Or is this attack on low mental stats simply hypocrisy. In a game where a tiny waif thin halfling can have a 21 Str do you balk at the tall well built human man with a Str of 7? Or do you enforce that the halfling is a rolling ball of pure muscle?
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This punishment from bad GMs who will force you to act like a mentally disabled person if you dare drop below a 10 in any mental stat... I can't think of any better word to describe it than wrong. Stop and realize that the ONLY game effect of a low stat is a -1 or -2 on checks. If a 10% worse chance on a d20 equals mentally disabled to you then wow.
Confession, I dislike having to build characters and spend hours typing up their sheet just for a maybe. I'd rather concepts be submitted and accepted and let the crunch work be done only if accepted. I have many characters that never got accepted and rarely would they qualify for another game because each GM has their own character gen.Huh? Why would a DM do that? A good DM sets parameters, and then lets you play whatever you want within them.
"25 pt buy (no points back from dumping), no Evils, all Core Rulebooks, game starts in Sandpoint, so you should work with that."
Think for a moment, that simple little list has a dozen details that can be changed and still remain a simple little list. For example, changing the ability score gen to 4d6 drop lowest, good only, all paizo, 3pp case by case, setting is Ebberron.
These little changes can have drastic effects on the character, particularly for someone like me who selects options to fit the concept and restarts from scratch if a concept can't be done with available options. I might make a LN character, that character can't just be switched to good and be fine, mechanically it might work, but it changes the entire foundation of the character and why that character learned what they learned in the first place.
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Regarding the whole low int thing, we actually have a funny situation in our group. Several of the players have high int scores, but the one playing the barbarian (int 10) is an actual literal real world genius (never been tested but we know him well enough to be sure of that).
I study computer science in university and I will often convert interesting homework questions into in-game riddles and puzzles for my players. I don't go soft, either - some are questions that I needed an hour or more to crack.
The player piloting the barbarian promptly solves them in a couple of minutes. Since this is a game and everyone has fun thinking about the problem AND these moments help that player shine, we all just go with it, reasoning that in-game it was probably one of the smarter characters who figured it out.
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I don't care what you say you did you have a 6 int and a 8 cha if you roll high on diplomacy ok, but your default setting is dumb brute so that's what will come out when you speak.
When you think about it, half of all the people in the world are below average. But we don't think like that. We think that there is a broad range of 'average', with narrower ranges of 'below average' and 'above average'.
On the 3d6 bell curve which represents the general population, nearly 1 in 20 people have an Int of 6 or less. But are 1 in 20 people you know limited to 'AAARRRRGGGHHH' in conversation? I doubt it.
And yet, you're saying that someone with 6 Int is incapable of talking? That you're so sure of it that you 'narrate' the result without even asking for a roll, assuming failure? That you're so confident that nearly 1 in 20 of the population is incapable of uttering a coherent sentence that you take away control of a player's character?
It's a very common fallacy, but a fallacy nonetheless, that mental stats of less than average somehow mean a character is so stupid that they will die without a friend constantly whispering, '...breathe in...breathe out...breathe in...breathe out...'
An Int of 6 is as far below average as an Int of 15 is above average. Yet do we treat those with stats of 15 as gods among men, leaving those without such an exalted score as pointless wastes of skin? We don't,and we shouldn't treat stats of 6 as if they were ridiculously rare, when nearly 1 in 20 of the population has Int of 6 or less, on the 3d6 bell curve.
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I actually have dealt with many people on the low end of the intelligence spectrum, even socially awkward ones. I found they're actually more likely to use phrases like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" and other pleasantries. They were taught to do that with all adults, and never questioned it, simply accepted that's how you're supposed to talk.
It is so-called "normal" and "above average" people who tend to be ignorant dismissive of simple social conventions, and will swing up on a peasant and be like "Yo, wench, where's the goblin village at? Come on, I ain't got all day lady, got heads to chop off here!"
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Do you enforce ALL stats I wonder? Or is this attack on low mental stats simply hypocrisy. In a game where a tiny waif thin halfling can have a 21 Str do you balk at the tall well built human man with a Str of 7? Or do you enforce that the halfling is a rolling ball of pure muscle?
In my group it's never really come up, though no one in my group has a single digit ability score.
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This punishment from bad GMs who will force you to act like a mentally disabled person if you dare drop below a 10 in any mental stat... I can't think of any better word to describe it than wrong.
How about just not what you enjoy?
There's no objective way to judge preferences and labelling others' as bad or wrong is unhelpful.
They're not bad DMs for running games their players enjoy just because you wouldn't like it. They're not doing it wrong just because you don't like it done that way.
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I don't care what you say you did you have a 6 int and a 8 cha if you roll high on diplomacy ok, but your default setting is dumb brute so that's what will come out when you speak.When you think about it, half of all the people in the world are below average. But we don't think like that. We think that there is a broad range of 'average', with narrower ranges of 'below average' and 'above average'.
Except in Lake Wobegon.
An Int of 6 is as far below average as an Int of 15 is above average. Yet do we treat those with stats of 15 as gods among men, leaving those without such an exalted score as pointless wastes of skin? We don't,and we shouldn't treat stats of 6 as if they were ridiculously rare, when nearly 1 in 20 of the population has Int of 6 or less, on the 3d6 bell curve.
What's happened is that a lot of people are remembering the definitions of stats from 1st edition -- when INT 6 *was* imbecilic and INT 15 *was* extraordinary (and 18 was, by and large, a racial maximum that could not be exceeded without a magic item that let you emulate a higher stat that was not otherwise obtainable by mortals) -- and applying those definitions to 3.x/Pathfinder where they no longer fit.
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To elaborate, I'm a big fan of roleplaying a character according to their identity rather than using stats and numbers to artificially define them.
While the appearance of a Body Builder holds no appeal to me, I can see absolutely no good reason to restrict someone's appearance or behavior based on their stats.
When they do things, their stats will show out in the results.
Winner winner of all the chicken dinners!
So 'mortals' were technically incapable of casting 9th level spells without being propped up by magic?
Correct - human mortals, if I remember right. While elves could get 19 INT (I think), sticking to RAW they couldn't get high enough levels as a player. NPCs didn't have such restrictions.
Do you often see barbarians with 6 Int and 9 Cha put 15 ranks into Diplomacy? I can't say I've ever seen someone dump their mental stats then load up their penalized skills to make up for it. But I'll admit I haven't played in every game everywhere.I have seen it both in practice and in theory crafting builds... though not with the Barbarian class I will admit.
Well-stated. I have found this to be a great annoyance in a number of games. Just because the barbarian has an intelligence of 8 or 9, does not mean that he drools and speaks with the vocabulary of a slow, small child.
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Correct - human mortals, if I remember right. While elves could get 19 INT (I think), sticking to RAW they couldn't get high enough levels as a player. NPCs didn't have such restrictions.
So 'mortals' were technically incapable of casting 9th level spells without being propped up by magic?
That is correct. Racial mods also affected your racial maximums. So Dwarfs had a racial max strength of 19. Halflings had a racial max of either 16 or 17, I think. (Actually, it was probably female halflings were 16 and male halflings were 17 -- since differing stat max by gender was a thing back then.)
Also remember that in 1st edition, if you had an INT of 5 or less you were *required* to be a Fighter -- you literally weren't smart enough to have any other class. (All of the other stats had similar requirements -- STR 5 or less automatically made you a Magic-User.)
Do you enforce ALL stats I wonder? Or is this attack on low mental stats simply hypocrisy. In a game where a tiny waif thin halfling can have a 21 Str do you balk at the tall well built human man with a Str of 7? Or do you enforce that the halfling is a rolling ball of pure muscle?
ok so i feel like what i meant by my original post has been taken harshly as if i was attacking people with mental disabilities I in no way meant that so i will try to elaborate as much as i can to get my point across...
i only do this when i am playing with people i know well and am friends with...
Strength, Carrying Capacity, Examples and Descriptions Score Light Load (lbs.) Medium Load (lbs.) Heavy Load (lbs.) Modifier Examples Description
— (no score) — — — — Allip, shadow, will-o'-wisp A creature with no Strength score is likely to be incorporeal (like ghosts)
0 0 0 0 — — Too weak to move in any way and is unconscious.
1 0-3 4–6 7–10 –5 Lantern archon, bat, toad Morbidly weak, has significant trouble lifting own limbs
2 0-6 7–13 14–20 –4 Rat swarm Needs help to stand, can be knocked over by strong breezes
3 0-10 11–20 21–30 –4
4 0-13 14–26 27–40 –3 Grig, monstrous centipede Knocked off balance by swinging something dense
5 0-16 17–33 34–50 –3
6 0-20 21–40 41–60 –2 Hawk, cockatrice, pixie Difficulty pushing an object of their weight
7 0-23 24–46 47–70 –2
8 0-26 27–53 54–80 –1 Quasit, badger Has trouble even lifting heavy objects
9 0-30 31–60 61–90 –1
10 0-33 34–66 67–100 +0 Human Can literally pull their own weight
11 0-38 39–76 77–115 +0
12 0-43 44–86 87–130 +1 Dog, pony, ghoul Carries heavy objects for short distances
13 0-50 51–100 101–150 +1
14 0-58 59–116 117–175 +2 Gnoll, dire badger, baboon Visibly toned, throws small objects for long distances
15 0-66 67–133 134–200 +2
16 0-76 77–153 154–230 +3 Black pudding, choker, shark Carries heavy objects with one arm
17 0-86 87–173 174–260 +3
18 0-100 101–200 201–300 +4 Centaur, displacer beast, minotaur Can break objects like wood with bare hands
19 0-116 117–233 234–350 +4
20 0-133 134–266 267–400 +5 Ape, ogre, flesh golem, gorgon Able to out-wrestle a work animal or catch a falling person
21 0-153 154–306 307–460 +5
22 0-173 174–346 347–520 +6 Rhinoceros, ogre destroyer Can pull very heavy objects at appreciable speeds
23 0-200 201–400 401–600 +6
24 0-233 234–466 467–700 +7 Hill giant, troll berserker Pinnacle of brawn, able to out-lift several people
25 0-266 267–533 534–800 +7
26 0-306 307–613 614–920 +8
27 0-346 347–693 694–1,040 +8
28 0-400 401–800 801–1,200 +9
29 0-466 467–933 934–1,400 +9
30 0-532 533–1,066 1,067–1,600 +10 Fire giant, triceratops, elephant Amongst the strongest creatures to have ever existed
so if you have a str of 6 by the book you have trouble pushing your own weight.
at 18 you as strong as a minotaur so...no to me a character with a str of 6 can't tell me that their character looks like a body builder . and yes if someone came to me with a Halfling with 21 str he would look like a mini mr. universe
ble: Dexterity Examples and Descriptions Score Modifier Examples Description
— — Shrieker
Immobile
0 –6 – Incapable of moving (but not unconscious)
1 –5 Gelatinous cube Barely mobile, probably significantly paralyzed
2-3 –4 Many oozes, living wall, sea urchin Incapable of moving without great effort
4–5 –3 Hungry fog Visible paralysis or physical difficulty
6–7 –2 Purple worm, ogre zombie Significant klutz or very slow to react
8–9 –1 Ogre, basilisk, fire giant, tendriculos Somewhat slow, occasionally trips over own feet
10–11 +0 Human, triton, boar, giant fire beetle Capable of usually catching a small tossed object, average human agility
12–13 +1 Bugbear, lammasu, hobgoblin Able to often hit large targets at a distance
14–15 +2 Displacer beast, hieracosphinx Can catch or dodge a medium-speed surprise projectile
16–17 +3 Blink dog, wraith, lion, octopus Able to often hit small targets at a distance
18–19 +4 Astral deva, ethereal filcher Light on feet, able to often hit small moving targets at a distance
20–21 +5 Arrowhawk, bone devil Graceful, able to flow from one action into another easily
22-23 +6 Kirin, dweomercat Very graceful, capable of dodging multiple thrown objects
24-25 +7 Cat lord, balor Moves like water, reacting to all situations with almost no effort
32–33 +11 Elder air elemental Moves like the wind, capable of reactions unseen by mortals, reaction-time is virtually instantaneous
i don't know, i think this is self explanatory...i could be wrong....
Score Modifier Examples Description
— — Ghoul, mummy, shadow Most undead creatures do not have a Constitution score
0 — – A creature with a Constitution score of 0 is dead, it has kicked the bucket, it has shuffled off it's mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible
1 –5 – Minimal immune system, body reacts very poorly to anything foreign
2-3 –4 – Frail, suffers constant illnesses
4-5 –3 – Bruises very easily, knocked out by a light punch
6-7 –2 Toad, hedgehog Unusually prone to disease and infection
8–9 –1 Centipede swarm, locust swarm Easily winded, incapable of a full day’s hard labor
10–11 +0 Human, imp, dire weasel, grick Occasionally contracts mild sicknesses, average human healthiness
12–13 +1 Rust monster, medusa, otyugh, nymph Can take a few hits before being knocked unconscious
14–15 +2 Light horse, merfolk, troglodyte Able to labor for twelve hours most days
16–17 +3 Tiger, chimera, assassin vine Easily shrugs off most illnesses
18–19 +4 Polar bear, gargoyle, umber hulk Able to stay awake for days on end
20–21 +5 Elephant, aboleth, tyrannosaurus Very difficult to wear down, almost never feels fatigue
22-23 +6 Emperor walrus, night hag, Never gets sick, resistant even to the most virulent diseases
24-25 +7 Brontosaurus, mountain aurochs Virtually tireless, practically immune to mundane illnesses and diseases
35 +12 Tarrasque Nearly immune to any level of fatigue, illness, disease, or infection- such a creature's stamina is practically god-level
again i dont think this needs more...feel free ^_^
Score Modifier Examples Description
— — Zombie, golem, ochre jelly
0 – – Comatose
1 –5 Carrion crawler, purple worm, camel Lives by the most basic instincts, not capable of logic or reason
2-3 –4 Tiger, hydra, dog, horse Animal-level intelligence, acts mostly on instinct but can be trained
4–5 –3 Otyugh, griffon, displacer beast Can speak but is apt to react instinctively and impulsively, sometimes resorts to charades to express thoughts
6–7 –2 Troll, hell hound, ogre, yrthak Dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounces words
8–9 –1 Troglodyte, centaur, gnoll Has trouble following trains of thought, forgets most unimportant things
10–11 +0 Human, bugbear, wight, night hag Knows what they need to know to get by
12–13 +1 Dragon turtle, cloud giant, lamia Picks up new ideas quickly and learns easily, knows a bit more than is necessary, fairly logical
14–15 +2 Invisible stalker, wraith, will-o'-wisp Can solve most problems without even trying very hard, able to do math or solve logic puzzles mentally with reasonable accuracy
16–17 +3 succubus, trumpet archon Noticeably above the norm, fairly intelligent, able to understand new tasks quickly
18–19 +4 Nightwing Genius-level intelligence, may invent new processes or uses for knowledge
20–21 +5 Kraken, titan, nightcrawler Highly knowledgeable, probably the smartest person many people know
22-23 +6 Great wyrm red dragon, planetar Able to make amazing leaps of logic
24-25 +7 Mythic ice devil, the demon lord Kostchtchie World-famous level intelligence, sought out for advice constantly
32–33 +11 Great wyrm gold dragon Unfathomable intellect
um.. again feel free i said all i wanted to about this again i did not mean this as an attack on people with disabilities only as to what the reference is shown as...
0 – – Incapable of rational thought and is unconscious.
1 –5 Gelatinous cube (ooze), animated object Seemingly incapable of thought, barely aware
2-3 –4 Shrieker (fungus) Rarely notices important or prominent items, people, or occurrences
4-5 –3 Giant maggot, bogwid Seemingly incapable of planning
6–7 –2 Gibbering abomination, blood orc, ifrit Seems to have almost no common sense
8–9 –1 Purple worm, grimlock, troll Forgets or fails to consider options before taking action
10–11 +0 Human, lizardfolk, phantom fungus Capable of planning and makes reasoned decisions most of the time
12–13 +1 Owlbear, hyena, shadow, remorhaz Can sense when a person is upset
14–15 +2 Wraith, owl, giant praying mantis Can get hunches about a situation that doesn’t feel right
16–17 +3 Devourer, lillend, androsphinx Reads people and situations fairly well
18–19 +4 Couatl, erinyes devil, guardian naga Often looked to as a source of wisdom or as a counselor
20–21 +5 Unicorn, storm giant Reads people and situations very well, almost without effort
22-23 +6 Xacarba, nalfeshnee demon, royal time elemental Can tell minute differences among many situations
24-25 +7 Kirin emperor, Amon (Duke of Hell), tarn linnorm Nearly prescient, able to see potential results far beyond that which pure logic would reveal
32–33 +11 Great wyrm gold dragon
need more???
0 – – Unable to express itself in any way and is unconscious.
1 –5 Zombie, golem, shrieker
Barely conscious, appears blank and expressionless
2-3 –4 Spider, crocodile, lizard, rhinoceros Capable of only minimal independent decision-making
4–5 –3 Dire rat, weasel, chuul, donkey Has no awareness of the needs of others, almost no sense of empathy
6–7 –2 Badger, troll, fire beetle, bear Uninteresting, rude, boorish, and generally unpleasant to be
8–9 –1 Gnoll, dire boar, manticore, gorgon Something of a bore or makes people mildly uncomfortable
10–11 +0 Human, wolverine, dretch
Understands most conventions of social interactions and acts relatively acceptably in social circumstances
12–13 +1 Treant, roper, doppelganger, night hag Mildly interesting, usually knows what to say
14–15 +2 Storm giant, barghest, medusa Interesting, almost always knows what to say
16–17 +3 Ogre mage, pixie, harpy, achaierai Popular, receives greetings and conversations on the street
18–19 +4 Greater barghest, nixie Immediately likeable by many people, subject of favorable talk
20–21 +5 Astral deva, kraken Life of the party, able to keep people entertained for hours
22-23 +6 Kirin, adult crystal dragon, hamadryad, phoenix Immediately likeable by almost everybody
24-25 +7 Marilith demon, star drake, solar, nymph Renowned for wit, personality, and/or looks
32–33 +11 Great wyrm gold dragon
so my only issue with this as a low stat is at 6 it shows that a character would be Uninteresting, rude, boorish, and generally unpleasant to be (the reason i dot like this is when players use this as an excuse to play a dick...) other than that there you feel free to attack me some more...
Could you do me a favor Riuk?
Compare the strength of a Bodybuilder to that of a Power Lifter.
Now compare their physiques.
yes I understand the difference between show mussels and power mussels
but you can't say that a character with 7 in str would look like a bodybuilder for even they can and do bench a minimum of 200lbs
now if you have 18 str and say you look like a sumo wrestler, thats fine since they are extremely powerful as for a world class level forward two hand trust has 1000 pounds of power... with a str of 7 and a max load of 60 lbs come on...dude
as I said that just me
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Could you do me a favor Riuk?
Compare the strength of a Bodybuilder to that of a Power Lifter.
Now compare their physiques.
...because splitting hairs totally nullifies the entirety of his argument. /sarcasm
Riuk you already ignored the very tables you are misusing.
The 6-7 stat character was forcibly reduced to a vocabulary of "Raaarrrggh" by you. That is WAY WAY worse than slow to get it or misunderstanding some words.
This is a game where that Int 6 person could spend some skill points and be perfectly fluent in multiple languages.
Riuk you already ignored the very tables you are misusing.
The 6-7 stat character was forcibly reduced to a vocabulary of "Raaarrrggh" by you. That is WAY WAY worse than slow to get it or misunderstanding some words.This is a game where that Int 6 person could spend some skill points and be perfectly fluent in multiple languages.
hold on hold on I did not make the post about the "Raaaarrrrggh" stuff that was someone else why do you think I made that post look at it and see that was someone else...
edit that post was made by
We once had a dwarf barb with 6 INT/ 9 CHA try that. We needed information about the location of a goblin village, so he walked into the middle of the park and said to a nice looking woman "Excuse me, but could you tell us anything about a nearby goblin village?"
And the GM said: "Alright, so he walks up to the woman, swings his axe over his head and says "RRRAAAARRGHHHGRRGAAGHRGARGHARGAHR"
so why you mad at me....
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To elaborate, I'm a big fan of roleplaying a character according to their identity rather than using stats and numbers to artificially define them.
While the appearance of a Body Builder holds no appeal to me, I can see absolutely no good reason to restrict someone's appearance or behavior based on their stats.
When they do things, their stats will show out in the results.
I think the problem some people may have with this and other approaches to some of the attributes is the feeling that a character is getting some sort of advantage, mechanical or social, from having stats that say one thing and descriptions/play style that say something far different.
An example! In an online Shadowrun game I frequented, one of the most common and irritating to many examples was the tiny waif girl with phenomenal strength. Not magically augmented; rather, these people would have race maximum strength with a hearty helping of vat-grown muscles on top. Their descriptions and play style said they were a 98 pound four foot ten inch little sexy thing who could casually lift a car. I assume this has something to do with some anime.
Now, this is what they wanted. What others tended to believe should be true is that they look like She-Hulk as they saunter up to the guard and demurely smile. In effect, it was thought they were trying to downplay their great ability score in order to not suffer from people being suspicious because your muscles are ripping your clothing every time you move.
Moving back to our barbarian above, or any of the corner cases (a magician who has a low strength but just so happens to look like he is in better shape than everyone else in the party comes up a lot.) Yeah, sometimes there are players who have reasons for those characters. Sometimes. I'd daresay far less often than the discussions on the boards would lead me to believe, however.
No, you don't have to play a drooling idiot with a lower-than-average intelligence, or a bumbling klutz with a low Dex and so on. What I do ask my players to do, and try to adhere to myself, is consistency and continuity. If for the last six sessions you have played your barbarian as a growling wild man with no social graces and then suddenly, without any reasoning, backstory, skill buys or whatnot you start talking flawlessly, using big words and attempting to coerce, smooze, and otherwise play the Face role, I'm going to have questions and comments whether I am a player or GM.
By all means, play as you are comfortable with and make a character you enjoy. Sure, by all means. But for goodness sake, try to make a CHARACTER. If you are gaming the system, it will show. If you are trying to get some sort of edge and downplay any disadvantages, it will show. And yes, just beyond the -1 or -2 of the mechanics.
I've found that people are eager and willing to show off their high stat, but less willing to play up anything seen as a problem. You picked the numbers when you made the character, yes? Then accept what you've done and at least nod to it being a problem every once in a while.
Riuk you already ignored the very tables you are misusing.
The 6-7 stat character was forcibly reduced to a vocabulary of "Raaarrrggh" by you. That is WAY WAY worse than slow to get it or misunderstanding some words.This is a game where that Int 6 person could spend some skill points and be perfectly fluent in multiple languages.
hold on hold on I did not make the post about the "Raaaarrrrggh" stuff that was someone else why do you think I made that post look at it and see that was someone else...
edit that post was made by
so why you mad at me....We once had a dwarf barb with 6 INT/ 9 CHA try that. We needed information about the location of a goblin village, so he walked into the middle of the park and said to a nice looking woman "Excuse me, but could you tell us anything about a nearby goblin village?"
And the GM said: "Alright, so he walks up to the woman, swings his axe over his head and says "RRRAAAARRGHHHGRRGAAGHRGARGHARGAHR"
You are the one defending it. It isn't hard to see why I might think you feel the same way as that poster when:
lol this is what im talking about
This is what you say about it. And then go on to defend it fiercely.
@Kyrt
we all know that in fantasy this entre argument is invalid ^_^
@Aranna
as I said I only enforce this with people I know and ok ya I did use that table completely as just a reference point I am in no way attacking you
and ya I would have no issue if a GM saw me roll a nat 1 and told me I slammed my head into the wall when I tried to talk to the guard
as I said I only do this with people I know would not have and issue with it you do so it would not happen to you ^_^...I had to defend it because why did you get so angry at that, they all seemed to have fun with it and no anger was shown I know that if anyone at that tale could have had an issue with it then it would not have happened
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and I was not defending it I felt like I was getting attacked and felt the need to show why I feel this way about it. Of course this only matters on how much realism you want in your games/ what your group of friend/ players are ok with set the rules first and be clear what having what stat would mean high and low if your not clear about it than you can't complain when they do it
I try to be very open about how i feel about what ever stat a player has but again I only do this with friends that know wont have an issue with it.
im not going to tell you what you look like but I will let you know what you'll be close to is you have a high or low stat so you will have a reference point the same as the rest o the group
you could have everyone be at a 2 stat look like gods it would be your head go for it
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I'll split hairs all day long when the person I'm talking with is weaving the 'mechanics' hair to the 'roleplay' hair....because splitting hairs totally nullifies the entirety of his argument. /sarcasmCould you do me a favor Riuk?
Compare the strength of a Bodybuilder to that of a Power Lifter.
Now compare their physiques.
You're right, the two are entirely unrelated.
On that note, I'm off to play a goblin fighter who looks like Pierce Brosnan (not Pierce Brosnan if he were a goblin, just like him, height and all) who can cast wizard spells (not who thinks he can, but who can, despite being a pure fighter) and can leap forty feet vertically in full plate despite having no ranks in acrobatics.
Because that's what I as the player want, and any contrary statistical information doesn't matter, right?
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I'll split hairs all day long when the person I'm talking with is weaving the 'mechanics' hair to the 'roleplay' hair....because splitting hairs totally nullifies the entirety of his argument. /sarcasmCould you do me a favor Riuk?
Compare the strength of a Bodybuilder to that of a Power Lifter.
Now compare their physiques.
You're right, the two are entirely unrelated.
On that note, I'm off to play a goblin fighter who looks like Pierce Brosnan (not Pierce Brosnan if he were a goblin, just like him, height and all) who can cast wizard spells (not who thinks he can, but who can, despite being a pure fighter) and can leap forty feet vertically in full plate despite having no ranks in acrobatics.
Because that's what I as the player want, and any contrary statistical information doesn't matter, right?
ok now I cant get the thought of him walking up to goblins acting like he is one of them and when they try to say otherwise he shows his awesome powers then they go welcome out new gobbling KING
Cornnuts the Cha 14 barbarian and Silverlisp the Cha 6 Bard are both trying to get a date with the single barmaid... Since this involves improving her disposition toward them from indifferent to friendly it needs a Diplomacy check. Cornnuts the barbarian feels she should automatically swoon for him because of the fluff text on their respective charisma scores and has no ranks in diplomacy. Silverlisp on the other hand recognizes the real number that is needed here IS the diplomacy check result and since he pumped a bunch of his otherwise unspent points into diplomacy he has a +9 modifier even after the penalty. They both make checks against diplomacy after much arguing from Cornnuts and guess what assuming the target number they need is a 20, Cornnuts has a 15% chance of success while Silverlisp has a 50% chance to win her heart. Even if they both succeed Silverlisp has a much better chance of landing that date. The game mechanics CLEARLY show Silverlisp as being FAR MORE eloquent a speaker than Cornnuts. Clearly the 3.5e monster comparison chart is totally useless in comparing PCs.
Here's one that's really gonna make you chuck rocks at me.
My kids first exposure to the super hero genre was thru Bad Days :-)
Look it up on YouTube if you don't know what it is :-)
Cornnuts the Cha 14 barbarian and Silverlisp the Cha 6 Bard are both trying to get a date with the single barmaid... Since this involves improving her disposition toward them from indifferent to friendly it needs a Diplomacy check. Cornnuts the barbarian feels she should automatically swoon for him because of the fluff text on their respective charisma scores and has no ranks in diplomacy. Silverlisp on the other hand recognizes the real number that is needed here IS the diplomacy check result and since he pumped a bunch of his otherwise unspent points into diplomacy he has a +9 modifier even after the penalty. They both make checks against diplomacy after much arguing from Cornnuts and guess what assuming the target number they need is a 20, Cornnuts has a 15% chance of success while Silverlisp has a 50% chance to win her heart. Even if they both succeed Silverlisp has a much better chance of landing that date. The game mechanics CLEARLY show Silverlisp as being FAR MORE eloquent a speaker than Cornnuts. Clearly the 3.5e monster comparison chart is totally useless in comparing PCs.
again I said as a reference point and I did say skill rolls do and should bypass base stats, but since I like using critical fails even if you have that +20 in any stat, roll that nat 1 and you suck for the moment. this has been used on me and I did mind it, even when the crit fail three times in a row killed me lol my friends and i have fun using that home rule .
obviously in PF you can't auto fail so this would not happen unless I told my players this is my house rules and they agree to it, I would never spring a house rule on someone with out telling them that this could happen that is just to mean...
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On the topic of role play vs roll play, I don't think anyone should be saying "no, your group is playing this wrong", especially when the group has fun with that particular style; it is a game, after all, and so even if the GM controlled all of the characters and the players just rolled when instructed, if the players enjoyed that then the GM is successful for that group (though I doubt many groups would like this - it's an exaggeration).
I think right or wrong in this context is largely group-dependant. If the majority of players and the GM like to make the role-play dependant on the sheets, then it's 'wrong' for a player to play their 5 intelligence orc like an Oxford professor if the people at that table don't enjoy that. Similarly, it's not 'wrong' if the people at that table are fine with that way of playing.
Personally, I'm fine with the players playing however they want in the games I GM (so long as it doesn't turn into a one player show), but in a game I play in, I like the more sheet dependant RP. Luckily, this doesn't cause m/any problems as everyone seems happy to play the character as the sheets would suggest.
Cornnuts the Cha 14 barbarian and Silverlisp the Cha 6 Bard are both trying to get a date with the single barmaid... Since this involves improving her disposition toward them from indifferent to friendly it needs a Diplomacy check. Cornnuts the barbarian feels she should automatically swoon for him because of the fluff text on their respective charisma scores and has no ranks in diplomacy. Silverlisp on the other hand recognizes the real number that is needed here IS the diplomacy check result and since he pumped a bunch of his otherwise unspent points into diplomacy he has a +9 modifier even after the penalty. They both make checks against diplomacy after much arguing from Cornnuts and guess what assuming the target number they need is a 20, Cornnuts has a 15% chance of success while Silverlisp has a 50% chance to win her heart. Even if they both succeed Silverlisp has a much better chance of landing that date. The game mechanics CLEARLY show Silverlisp as being FAR MORE eloquent a speaker than Cornnuts. Clearly the 3.5e monster comparison chart is totally useless in comparing PCs.
If indeed, Silverlisp gets a chance to sweet-talk her for a whole minute. Have you ever tried to chat up a pretty girl? If you're a drooling ugly dude, you wont get past "Hey babe....." ;-)
Whereas Cornnuts will get her initial attention, but may fail his attempt as he bungles his conversation.
Except Charisma isn't appearance, it's Force of Personality.
Low cha = dull, boring and non-impactful, like you don't exist.
Being repulsive is actually one means of representing High Charisma, take a look at some of the monsters in the book.
"Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."While it's true that some monsters are so frightening they go back around the other side, it's rare.
I don't like reading forum arguments about play style in threads dedicated to confessing things that will get me shunned by the community
;-D I kid