Also, don't forget to have him making perception checks to pick out his targets. If he's staying at decent range the distance penalties alone can be crazy.
Just some advise on the encounters:
"Counter-sniping" has already been stated. This will be especially fun if you have casters start throwing spells out there like charm person and such, making the party have to deal with his stealth tactics. Faerie fire and others are fine, but if you can get the target of the halfling's ire to switch forms with another character...
Let the halfling hear about rumors of his exploits start to circulate through the bad guy ranks ("They have this ghost that works for them, appearing out of the night like a specter and vanishing even before his arrows find their mark!" "Really? I heard it was a demon that vanished in a cloud of fire and smoke!" "Knuckleheads! Its just some short elf with gender issues, just like the other elves. Gimme the alchemist fire and I'll show how to smoke him out!"). He'll get a thrill out of it, and when anti-halfling units/tactics crop up, he won't be surprised or feel picked on.
Getting snipped from a tree? Are you a tree loving hippy druid or the loyal henchman of the Evil Overlord? Burn it down! (and get cover while you wait. Break out marshmallows, graham crackers and chocolate for the added intimidation factor)
Order the big brute to hold action when the sniping starts. When the second attack comes in, charge in (rage'em if you got'em), grapple, and stuff him in a sack. Said sack can now be used as a club to assualt the other heroes. To ease the poor rogue's feelings, you could point out that, technically, the halfling does has concealment from everyone while in the sack...
Turn the lights out. Now everyone can't see anyone. No dexterity for anyone!
His perception isn't that high, right? A couple of potions of keen sight (Perception +10) in the hands of another rogue with similar stealth abilities. Kolbolds have the same size bonus, but a goblins has that and a +4 racial bonus to stealth checks! 3rd level, +3 class skill, plus +4 size, +4 racial, +6 dexterity (goblins get+4 dex). That's +23 without any items, feats, or special abilities. Me thinks no one his level will spot him. I also smell an excellent arch-nemesis.
Speaking of which, goblins and kolbolds see just fine in the dark. Seriously, with the bonus to dexterity, bonus to stealth, and darkvision, I like to think goblinoids are why sensible creatures fear the night.
On the nemesis thought: an epic battle between rogues dueling in the shadows, with only rustle of a cloth, a spray of blood, or half-seen glint of steel in the starlight to give it away sounds awesome to me. Doubly awesome if this can happen on roof tops, in the middle of a party, or both.
In short, he has made a character really good at something. Let him enjoy it, like you are. Don't hammer him constantly with anti-sniper tactics; sprinkle them in so he knows his bad little killer is a bad little killer. Then spread your focus out to the other characters; they have bad mamba-jambas, too. Seriously, its not like this guy can win the encounter for the whole party, anyway.
That damn magic-user, however...
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I'm not sure I understand the problem here. It sounds like he's built a pretty cool character and put some thought into it. It doesn't sound very overpowering to me at all.
Personally I wouldn't be looking for ways to nerf him I would be looking for ways to set him up with situations he can shine in. That way he will have more fun and feel rewarded for his cool build.
It seems strange to me when a DM wants to nerf a PC thats pretty F'in cool.
He wont ruin your game unless you let him. Relax, take a deep breath and remember it just a game. Lets have some fun. You might learn something.
Got to be careful: Concealment absolutely does not deny DEX to AC.
A successful Stealth check does.Opps. Yeah. That's what I meant. There's no Hidden condition, is there?
I understand the space limitations, but damn that's no small piece of information to overlook.
I still get the impression that this build should shortly fall behind some of the other archers, but I'll have to spend some more time comparing them now. Except for those open fields in broad daylight without cover, this build could be pretty nasty.
just because its an intelligent monster it still had no ranks in spellcraft so it had no idea how the spell worked in game terms as far as it knew the wizard teleported to safety and with a 5hr wait time for something that doesn't see halfling meat I would think it would wonder off... and why the halfling hate??? I have seen many players optimized for things like damage instead of stealth but I doubt you have an issue with people that can kill things with just 1 or 2 swipes using his 20 strength and 2 handed sword.... yet you find this guy OP?
One thing I'm not sure has been brought up yet is that most fights take only a very few rounds. Not all, but most. Even if his sniping works perfectly for him every time, he's not going to get it off more than a relatively few times in any given combat, before it's over--UNLESS the lack of one more valid target causes a cascade of PCs to go down, starting with the visible ones with the worst AC and HP.
I really can't say how likely that might be, because I don't know your group's composition. I'm in a group a bit more than halfway through that AP right now and my party has only 3 members and has only had one extremely challenging fight (end boss of 3rd book), but two characters have animal companions and we all ended up taking Leadership. Further, none of the PCs are at all squishy (ranger/cleric, ranger/fighter, and fighter). So it might or might not be an issue in your game that the enemy has fewer targets.
But that thing you mentioned--his theoretical ability to just plink away for a single sneak attack forever--that's just not going to come up unless the rest of the party is already down or he gets overconfident and tries to solo a big fight when he's off on his own.
First off, be glad he doesn't know the rules as good as I do. There is a way to get the restealth down to 0 penalty from -20.
Remember, he ONLY gets sneak attack when he is within 30 feet of his target.
True, one sneak attack per round may not be that fearsome, but I fear that he may eventually get his Stealth so high that he can afford to take on the Big Bad himself, nickel & diming him to death because neither he nor his minions can spot him.
Logically speaking, there is an archer out hiding in the woods shooting at you and your party. No one can find the archer. You'd tactically retreat, right? You wouldn't knowingly just sit there and wait to die, would you?
WAYS TO COUNTER STEALTH
Throw monsters, like Land Sharks, that use tremor sense/blind sense/blind sight/scent (scent >>> blind fighting) against the rogue err I mean the party.
A number of people have claimed DR prevents sneak damage. It doesn't.
DR does not negate sneak attack damage. The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.
Hope that clears it up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I've DM'd a bit and am currently playing in Kingmaker so will try to give some advice.
1) Kingmaker is one of the easier campaigns, it's designed as a fun campaign so letting the players do well or even feel a bit OP is not an issue.
2) Stealth is designed to allow characters to sneak around not be invisible in combat. I imagine rogues crawling on the ground or backs to wall, etc. so when they attack they have to pop up/out hence revealing there location. Remember skills are standard actions so going 'into stealth' takes there action.
So this normally means
Rnd 1)
Rogue moves to cover and goes into Stealth mode.Rnd 2)
drop out of stealth to shoot with sneak attack. Then move but they are no longer 'in stealth'.
You need to reread the stealth rules. Sniping is new to pathfinder and it allows you to take a -20 on your check to remained stealthed through the whole attack and never leave it. This eliminates the ability to use readied actions against them.
There is a replacement ability for halflings that allows them to reduce the penalty by 10, and I believe a second rogue one that allows you to reduce it by annother 10 (don't feel like looking for it).I agree with you that this is no worse than invisibility/improved invis for how you handle it.
To the OP:
He cannot nickel and dime enemies unless those enemies stay in a small location for him to nickel and dime them. He has severely restricted movement, so he cannot chase anything, and he must stay within 30 ft to do any relevant damage (later I believe he can increase this with the right build). He does moderate damage at this level, but he is currently at the peak level for effectiveness. By level 6 his damage as a % of enemy HP will noticably fall off compared to his allies. I see you having a larger problem with the other players complaining that he isn't pulling his weight in combat (though his stealth will be valuable for more of Kingmaker).
My recomendation is to have intelligent enemies take defensive positions against his fire. If he has to come to them, it becomes very difficult for him to maintain stealth. And because of his slow move speed, they will have a round or 2 to prepare.
1. His damage output is low, and trolls will easily be able to retreat and regenerate it
2. There wont be many places for him to hide in the caves, especially as they have to push forward into it.
Overall, I have looked at building similar characters and haven't bothered because they aren't effective enough at mid levels to stay relevant at the tables I play at.
If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
The rogue is following the rules.
To OP:
In my opinion this is no different than a Wizard going invisible and summoning monsters/buffing the party or a Fighter ramping up AC. I would allow him to have his fun, but eventually he'll run into something that can spot/smell/sense him despite his high stealth and he'll have to adapt to that situation, just like the Wizard who has to deal w/ enemies with See Invisible or the Fighter fighting a creature that targets his Touch AC or Will save.
Having enemies that challenge your party is not a punishment (as some seem to be saying) but neither is it right to have them only fight creatures that target their weakness (which you have not suggested, but some seem to say that too!).
The most important thing is that the game is meant to be fun. Talk to your players. If they are having fun, carry on. If you feel it's unbalancing, speak to the player and the group and see what they think. I'm of the opinion that the challenges at higher levels will negate a lot of his advantages in stealth, but my opinion doesn't really matter here, it's the opinion of you and your players. Do what works for your group and communication is key to discovering what will work.
Hope that is helpful.
With a 1L dip into another class, a L3 character can have a penalty of 0 restealthing after firing his bow at a target.
Hi Mr. Magpie,
I've been following this thread and thought I'd chime in as your situation is similar to one I had as a player in a game. I'd recommend the following ways of countering your player in a way that's not unfair.
If your group is attacking intelligent enemies from a single faction, there will come a point that they realize a sniper or archer is killing their comrades. Corpses littering their territory peppered with arrows adds up after a couple battles. Here is where I'd bring out the dogs. Dogs provide a way of flushing out the archer, tracking him down and driving him into a larger force. This can work as fun for both you, as you get to have some fun countering the hiding, and for the player as he's obviously been so successful in his actions that he's gotten the baddies to come gunning for him personally. Sheriff of Nottingham coming for Robin Hood as an example. You could have some fun by having the stealthy player overhear the baddies talking about finding him etc.
When your group faces a spellcaster, glitterdust will be a great way to ruin his day, same with faerie fire which I believe someone else mentioned. Don't forget that any bandit or humanoid with a brain can use alchemical items. Specifically itching powder and sneezing powder. They are splash attacks and adjacent squares must make saves also.
As for Kingmaker specifically. A stealthy character works in this AP part you are on. There is even a special notation detailing stealthy characters being able to coup de grace the Stag Lord. Also though, note that there is an owlbear coming up that has a good chance of being released to battle the players. Owlbears also have scent. I'd also make sure that you add trained dogs to the guards of the Stag Lords fort. If the stealthy player starts stealth soloing the fort, have the bandits let loose the dogs. You could have some fun RP if the player is cornered and captured. I'm sure the Stag Lord would make his stay in the fort enjoyable and the rest of the group would need to rescue him. Which may help tone down the stealth if he's captured and sees the value in using stealth to help the group instead of every second he can.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this, but how is your player climbing trees in combat and attacking with impunity enough that it's a problem for you? It takes time to get to a tree, climb etc with a 20 movement speed. You must have both hands free in order to climb, so your player would need to stow his bow, move/climb up the tree and then draw his weapon.
With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep incline (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed.
So he can climb as his move action for movement 5 which won't place him high enough to avoid being attacked. Also, I don't believe that he will have enough move action TO climb unless he starts at the base of the tree etc. However, he can climb for 10 if he takes a -5 to his climb check. So the DC 15 for climb movement 5 becomes DC 20 to climb at movement 10. Additionally, I don't see the rules for combining stealth AND climb together as they are both done with move actions.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move.
So you're looking at 1-3 rounds before the little guy is up a tree and able to start peppering the enemies with his arrows if one is nearby. That's a lot of missed actions to pull off his safe sniping which prolongs the fights and has the rest of the group being beaten on more.
It takes a lot of investment to snipe as he's doing (action economy, feats etc) so I don't see anything wrong with the player reaping the reward. As a DM, play it smart, let the player shine then when appropriate bust out the counter to stealth and make him change things up.
The secret is dogs.
Stick a couple of dogs into all of your bandit encounters and use them to sniff out your problem rogue. If he's sneak attacking he's within 30ft, if he's within 30ft he's within scent range.
Your typical bad-guy round will go like this:
Bandits delay until after their dogs (or if you're like me and most GMs you just have all the badguys go on the same initiative)
Dogs automatically detect Rogue as soon as he moves within 30ft.
On their initiative the dogs use a move action to pinpoint the direction that the rogue is at, then convert their standard action to a move action and run up to within 5 feet of him. Once they're within 5 feet they can pinpoint his location and begin barking their heads off as a free action.
Bandits jump back into initiative. They charge up and beat/stab/grapple your rogue.
I'd recommend letting him have his fun for a level or two before springing this on him. If he complains tell him that it is absolutely feasible for packs of roving bandits to bring tracking dogs with them when they hunt.
Also remember: the more famous a character gets the more likely it is that villains who know they'll be coming up against him adjust their tactics specifically to fight that hero.
Items? At level 3?
He still has to be in range for sneak attack.
He's gonna be good for a bit, then fall off. Let him have a little fun.
Yes, he started his new character at level 3 after his Wizard got killed, and I foolishly let him spend his 3000 gold on a Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 to Stealth) because I didn't want to bog down the session, so I trusted his greater experience. But even if I didn't let him have it to begin with he'd probably have gotten it later anyway. In retrospect, I should have known better because his earlier character was a munchkiny crafter Wizard.
I hope what you're saying is true, and he won't be OP later on. So far he's been pretty unstoppable.
Anyway, nobody seems to be disputing his interpretation of the rules, so does that mean his character is 100% legit?
It's not good to let new character's spend more then half the wealth by level on one item.
Anyway, I don't know if he's 100% legit, but a character who can snipe succesfully on a consistent basis shouldn't be ruining the game or anything.
I would just have enemies react like they would in real life. No one likes a threat they can't pinpoint. Anyone being sniped would likely take cover or get the hell out of there.
There's no way to start every fight in concealment. Sometimes you lose initiative, sometimes the enemy detects you before you detect them, sometimes there's no cover. If he moves to cover midway through a fight, the enemy still knows "hey, he just went behind that tree". Then they can act accordingly.
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I am having difficulty understanding why this is a problem.
His build doesn't make him particularly good at killing the enemy, it makes him particularly good at staying alive. Why is this bad?
Are you worried that his method of survivability will make the other characters get killed because he is not a potential target? Is this even a problem? Personally, if he is risking the other characters I'd say my solution is to play it out. Kill the other players, or at least incapacitate them.
Then the enemy can focus on that insect that kept shooting arrows at them. There are MANY options on tracking down a stealth sniper that have already been presented to you.
I am just having difficulty understanding why you think you need a special solution to this type of character. If you play the game realistically, he's not creating any problems that don't solve themselves, and he's far from overpowered.
Items? At level 3?
He still has to be in range for sneak attack.
He's gonna be good for a bit, then fall off. Let him have a little fun.
Yes, he started his new character at level 3 after his Wizard got killed, and I foolishly let him spend his 3000 gold on a Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 to Stealth) because I didn't want to bog down the session, so I trusted his greater experience. But even if I didn't let him have it to begin with he'd probably have gotten it later anyway. In retrospect, I should have known better because his earlier character was a munchkiny crafter Wizard.
I hope what you're saying is true, and he won't be OP later on. So far he's been pretty unstoppable.
Anyway, nobody seems to be disputing his interpretation of the rules, so does that mean his character is 100% legit?
It's not good to let new character's spend more then half the wealth by level on one item.
Anyway, I don't know if he's 100% legit, but a character who can snipe succesfully on a consistent basis shouldn't be ruining the game or anything.
I would just have enemies react like they would in real life. No one likes a threat they can't pinpoint. Anyone being sniped would likely take cover or get the hell out of there.
There's no way to start every fight in concealment. Sometimes you lose initiative, sometimes the enemy detects you before you detect them, sometimes there's no cover. If he moves to cover midway through a fight, the enemy still knows "hey, he just went behind that tree". Then they can act accordingly.
A cloak of elven kind is pretty much standard loot at that level. At most, it is 1 level ahead of the curve. Heck, they should be about to enter the second book and it is in there as loot not too far in for a CR 5 encounter, which the party should be easily able to defeat now.
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A cloak of elven kind is pretty much standard loot at that level. At most, it is 1 level ahead of the curve. Heck, they should be about to enter the second book and it is in there as loot not too far in for a CR 5 encounter, which the party should be easily able to defeat now.
That's cool, all I'm saying is if you waive the guidelines for spending WBL you may get a character who is very good at doing a specific thing. That's part of what happened here. He's more specialized then the rest of the party. Give it some time and it should even out.
No fun to have the world suddenly be full of sniffing dogs and landsharks and someone spamming faerie fire in every encounter, it breaks verisimilitude.
Just have enemies react like they naturally would to being sniped. Seek cover or fall back and make him bring the fight to them. Or, if they saw him run behind a tree, charge the tree and set a fire under it like in the hobbit. Stuff like that.
The cloak isnt a huge deal but it's a factor.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins.
I did actually know that rule of thumb even at the time, and I specified it to the player
That rule of thumb doesn't really seem like it stands up at all at low levels. At level 3 WBL is 3,000 gold... if you're looking at anything magical at all you're probably going to see at least a 1,500 gold price tag. Hell, a +1 weapon costs 2,000 for the enhancement alone. Unless you wanted the PC to not buy something he could afford until he leveled (so it would be less than half WBL) or buy a cart filled with hundreds (or thousands) of mundane items, there's really not much to say.
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Ah, I see, so the primary concern is the fact that because he's successfully stealthed, he's effectively immune to being attacked?
We should probably separate the game into both low level (1-5) and beyond (5+) play.
At the low levels, as I explained earlier, I effectively have the same PC in my Kingmaker game (except he had levels in ninja to use vanishing trick for even more stealth/invisibility awesomeness).
I wouldn't worry about most of the hexes with one-shot encounters (i.e. the trapdoor spider, the two frogs at the pond). They are insanely easy to overcome by a party that has rested, has this single battle, and gets to rest again. Resolving this encounter-a-day mechanic, making it challenging, or modifying it so it doesn't become boring is a whole other thread...
This leaves you with a few battles...
Kressle's Camp. The group is *meant* to ambush this camp. A sniper will love playing here, and the party should love the arrows coming out of nowhere and knowing that it's from a friendly. The sniper here is no more powerful than a wizard with a decent stealth who moves up and uses sleep on one of the watch towers.
The Mite Lair. As I mentioned, the halfling in my group scouted out rooms ahead of the party with sheer immunity. I would play this up if he gets deep into the lair scouting ahead, having the giant centipede brush past him but not detect him (put some fear into him). However, because of the tight layout of this place, he's not going to have that many positions he can snipe from and still get line of sight to targets. He needs to be within 30 feet to snipe, and there's a lot of unobstructed caves and mites with 120ft darkvision.
The Kobold Lair. This is hopefully some diplomacy and just the single fight with Tartuk. As I mentioned, the halfling in my group was insanely lucky and soloed Tartuk using drow poison. A single saving throw decided this battle - if Tartuk had made it, I believe I had given him Sleep, so it could've ended very badly for the halfling. In your case, if you make some changes to Tartuk's spells, he just needs to hit an area with a spell like sleep or deep slumber, and even if he cannot see the halfling, he can still take the halfling out for the fight (and the halfling's companions may not know where he fell asleep at, either!). This is again another tight area (Y5) where there just aren't many good positions to snipe from.
Stag Lord Fort. This is a fairly brutal battle if the party gets the fort on high alert and "pulls everything". Once the owlbear is unleashed, you can have it specifically hunt for the halfling using scent because it has a fondness to eat little folk. You can give your halfling pause about sniping away at everyone by overhearing that Akiros may actually be a "good guy" and allow him to think there may be others who have doubts about following the Stag Lord. Finally, against the Stag Lord himself - I'm not sure if the halfling's damage will be enough that he becomes a primary target early on in the fight - likely there's a front line warrior or a cleric that draws the ire earlier due to damage or healing. If the halfling is sniping, I'd say definitely roll the Stag Lord's +10 Perception to spot him. And the Stag Lord would still know the angle of the attack, and use his +13 Acrobatics to tumble away into a position that breaks up the straight shot that would hit him.
To sum up, I didn't really have a problem with a character like this in Book I. If he dominates a wandering monster encounter because he's in a tree when a brush thylacine wanders into camp -- it's really no big deal. Some of the wandering monsters could even sneak up on him -- the shambling mound comes to mind, tossing tendrils up into the tree to grapple and pull him down.
Same thing, I wouldn't worry about the one-shot encounters or wandering monsters, they are all so trivial I wouldn't object to a party dropping them in a single round or talking their way through each in order to keep the adventure moving quickly into the more exciting "meaty" parts.
The Lonely Barrow. Once again, there's not really great angles to have cover/concealment in here. The Lonely Warrior is pretty scary with his energy drain. The sniper should contribute, but like any ranged attacker, the wight will probably drop before anyone who is ranged is in any danger.
The Forgotten Keep. Here's an interesting one for you. Rigg is effectively as amazing as your halfling, but actually better with 120ft movement and natural invisibility! With +15 Perception, he can essentially play hide and seek with your sniper... and win... especially because he has a bleed effect and I'm not sure who will be coming to stop that on the halfling where nobody can find him.
Isle of the Lizard King. Honestly, at my table this was all roleplay and then a fight with a wisp. Because it all took place inside a hut, there's nowhere to hide.
Haunted Candlemere. This isn't in the book, but I really expanded on this and added ~8 haunts to a Cthulhu-infused tower to explore replete with hounds of tindalos and qlippoths (find these ideas suggested by others here on the forums). These are all deadly and care not for the stealthed halfling.
Trolls! I expanded this significantly too. The trolls actually attacked and took over the kobold mines. The halfling was nullified by the scent ability of both the trolls and their trollhounds. Later, in Hargulka's lair - the same thing, the trolls can sniff out this halfling and there's no real good places to hide within 30 feet where the battle is taking place.
Ultimately, I actually killed the PC in the troll lair. He's been raised since.
At this point, your party should be at least level 7. You're getting close to the point where other members of your party have a lot more powerful tricks - greater invisibility, confusion, etc - a single sniper character will pale in comparison going forward.
I hope the above concrete examples help. Again, my thoughts on the matter are not to stress or worry about this character as I believe the printed encounters need little embellishment for you have an entertaining, fun-filled adventure for your table.
In fact, he introduced his new character to the party by sneaking up to the fort where they were staying... the guards had no chance of spotting him, and neither did the players. Which leads me to believe that a CR appropriate encounter with NPC Rogues built like his character would be exceptionally unfair unless the players were specifically prepared for them.
This caught my eye.
Remember, stealth only lets you get from one point of concealment to the next undetected. Stealth checks are made as part of a move action, so if you have to go further then your move speed allows in one round to get to more concealment, you will be detected by anyone with line of sight, even if your stealth roll was 1,000,000.
If the entire approach to that fort has places to hide spaced every 20-40 ft leading right up to it's gates, that's a defensibility issue of the fort.
I did actually know that rule of thumb even at the time, and I specified it to the playerThat rule of thumb doesn't really seem like it stands up at all at low levels. At level 3 WBL is 3,000 gold... if you're looking at anything magical at all you're probably going to see at least a 1,500 gold price tag. Hell, a +1 weapon costs 2,000 for the enhancement alone. Unless you wanted the PC to not buy something he could afford until he leveled (so it would be less than half WBL) or buy a cart filled with hundreds (or thousands) of mundane items, there's really not much to say.
Good point.
You mentioned most of the encounters are in forests, giving him cover.
Are you also applying cover & perception penalties to the rogue to be able to spot / shoot their enemies?
If he has concealment to get stealth don't forget to check to make sure that he can actually see who he is shooting at - especially if he's up in a tree and has branches to try to see / shoot through. The penalties quickly add up in a forest environment.
-TimD
Ok, I gotcha. I was just running down possible reasons this character is such a problem, so I just wanted to make sure you knew stealth can only get you from concealment to concealment. I guess you already know that though.