@ Neo2151 and Nicos
a) If traps are needed to make the rogue a unique and indispensable part of any team then it only proves how problematic the rogue is. Thankfully PF has not been trapped in the 3.x way of thinking (pun intended): The only thing that truly makes the rogue unique and indispensable is its ability to deal with traps. Therefor we must add traps.
Why to see it that way?
I put traps in my dungeons were an when they make sense. Is a BBEG want to secure some area a trap could do the trick. I will do it regardless the party have rogues or not.
Your argument go to the extremes, I do not use traps just for the rogue to feel special the same way I do not use social encounters just for the bard can feel special or use combat just for the combat guy to feel special.
Hey, it's not my argument so don't blame me.
Any role in a party can be covered by more than one class without any class being forced into a specific archetype. Giving the rogue the trap expert role to make its role unique and indispensable is just lame.If you want to talk rogue, I’m in. Create a new thread and link to it.
Let’s not derail this thread more.
5th is an inquisitor. Becouse 4th is either a bard or an alchemist.
@ Neo2151 and Nicos
a) If traps are needed to make the rogue a unique and indispensable part of any team then it only proves how problematic the rogue is. Thankfully PF has not been trapped in the 3.x way of thinking (pun intended): The only thing that truly makes the rogue unique and indispensable is its ability to deal with traps. Therefor we must add traps.
Why to see it that way?
I put traps in my dungeons were an when they make sense. Is a BBEG want to secure some area a trap could do the trick. I will do it regardless the party have rogues or not.
Your argument go to the extremes, I do not use traps just for the rogue to feel special the same way I do not use social encounters just for the bard can feel special or use combat just for the combat guy to feel special.
Hey, it's not my argument so don't blame me.
Any role in a party can be covered by more than one class without any class being forced into a specific archetype. Giving the rogue the trap expert role to make its role unique and indispensable is just lame.
If you want to talk rogue, I’m in. Create a new thread and link to it.
Let’s not derail this thread more.
rangers, alchemists and bards can disarm magical traps. In most cases, dispel magic works too for magical traps. Non magical traps can be disarmed by anyone with decent dex.
Monk.
Every party needs comic relief.
They already have a fighter and a rogue for that.
The fighter doesn't forget how to swing a sword after doing so a very limited number of times a day. Same with the rogue and picking locks. If anyone is comic relief, it's the kooky amnesiac wizurd.They already have a fighter and a rogue for that.Monk.
Every party needs comic relief.
the magus, summoner, druid and inquisitor doesn't forget how to swing a swrd either. And they can do other things besides swinging swords.
You forgot ranger and paladin. I don't think Kthulhu believes in medium BAB classes.the magus, summoner, druid and inquisitor doesn't forget how to swing a swrd either. And they can do other things besides swinging swords.The fighter doesn't forget how to swing a sword after doing so a very limited number of times a day. Same with the rogue and picking locks. If anyone is comic relief, it's the kooky amnesiac wizurd.They already have a fighter and a rogue for that.Monk.
Every party needs comic relief.
medium Bab classes aren't faeries. They don't dissapear becouse someone doesn't believes in them. Also, "medium BAB is a wrong definition. Rogues are medium BAB. But inquisitors? With Judgement, Bane, spells, etc... they are beyond the equivalent of full BAB. Same with Magus and their extra enhancement to their swords, etc
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Presuming the party is starting with the 4 basic food groups: fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue then I would look at the variants next, ranger, barbarian, paladin or sorcerer. Inquisitor or other base class may also do as well depending on need. As far as the bard or druid, they are second line characters IMHO and make good 6th characters. I say this because true, the bard is a good buffer and can be made to do some of the trap finding ability of a rogue, but then you lose the reason for having a bard in the first place his ability to buff. The druid can never replace a cleric in healing and is a poor combat character even with his/her animal companion most of the time.
Those that malign the rogue have obliviously have never either played one or seen one played to their potential. They are more than just a trap monkey and if you are going into a trap heavy dungeon I pity the party that tries going there with a rogue substitute. Without trap spotter they are either going to set off a lot of traps or be beset by a lot of wandering monster while they check every ten feet. No other character has the versatility of the rogue in so many facets in trap finding, sneak attack, climbing, agility, and a host of others. I love my rogues and would not go into a dungeon without one. I have seen many a dead ranger and bard, yet my rogues always seem to come out alive and do more than their share in combat.
None of those are all day. Either the ability to swing a sword forever is of no merit because the party will stop when resources run low or all those other limited abilities that aren't spells are irrelevant. If you're going to insist that your PCs adventure nonstop forever with nothing but a countably infinite supply of CLW and lesser restoration potions so that the unlimited sword swinging of the fighter matters you can't count anything with finite limits.
You're arguing with someone using arguments you know he'll reject instead of the paladin and ranger which he cannot.
In my experience, normal Adventures (for example adventure paths) includes two kinds of combats. Mock and Boss. Through an adventuring day, you'll fight several mock fights, and 1, 2 or maybe 3 boss fights, and that's being quite reckless. In Mock fights, the 3/4 BAB is more than enough to clean those, and save the resources for the bosses. Actually, several of those classes (like the Magus), hold enough spells and resources to do a huge amount of bosss combats non-stop (thanks to spell-recall, for example), and they'll *level up* before they run out of gas.
I know Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian could substitute fighter, and he cannot deny that, but my point is Druids (whose pet can pounce non-stop, btw), Summoners, magus or inquisitors can do it as well, they can do a miriad of other things, and there is no downside.
Secondary casters are always a welcome party member. Druids or a bard, depending on where your campaign takes you, into nature or through the cities, respectively.
Monks are also excellent fifth party members, as well. Extra damage, scouting, and general combat utility that doesn't involve magic.
None of those are all day. Either the ability to swing a sword forever is of no merit because the party will stop when resources run low or all those other limited abilities that aren't spells are irrelevant. If you're going to insist that your PCs adventure nonstop forever with nothing but a countably infinite supply of CLW and lesser restoration potions so that the unlimited sword swinging of the fighter matters you can't count anything with finite limits.
You're arguing with someone using arguments you know he'll reject instead of the paladin and ranger which he cannot.
Just to explain my point further, let's take the Inquisitor Example.
Inquisitor has 3/4 BAB. A 12th level inquisitor has -3 BAB compared to a Full BAB class.
At that level, he can use Judgement for a +3 to hit, during 4 full combats, neglecting that -3.
He can use Divine Favor in 7 extra combats, granting him +3 luck bonus, negletcing that -3.
He can use Greater Bane, for an extra +2 to hit during 12 rounds, at least 3 combats, which is quite close to neglect it (a simple lvl 2 aid Spell is enough)
He can use Divine power for 5 extra combats.
So, using only that, he'll be a Full BAB class during 19 combats in a row. That's enough to level up.
The fun part is that, as it is quite rare that you fight 19 full combats in a row, the Inquisitor could use some of those in the same combat. So he could, instead, fight 5 combats where he is using Bane, Judgement and Divien Power, being, in practice, like 6 points above full BAB.
Hold on, guys, I just realized - the original question was a trick. It isn't asking which class is best, but who - or what - would make the best fifth party member! Here are my votes!
* The Jabberwock - assuming the rest of the party is deaf.
* A frost troll with the half-dragon (gold) template.
* A clay golem.
* An otyugh with a bottle of barbecue sauce and a little bib embroidered with the words, "Cleanup Crew".So it's not so much a matter of choosing the right class... it's a matter of choosing the right species.
I'll put my vote in for Treant with a treehouse in its branches. Travel in style.
I'll put my vote in for Treant with a treehouse in its branches. Travel in style.Hold on, guys, I just realized - the original question was a trick. It isn't asking which class is best, but who - or what - would make the best fifth party member! Here are my votes!
* The Jabberwock - assuming the rest of the party is deaf.
* A frost troll with the half-dragon (gold) template.
* A clay golem.
* An otyugh with a bottle of barbecue sauce and a little bib embroidered with the words, "Cleanup Crew".So it's not so much a matter of choosing the right class... it's a matter of choosing the right species.
I vote for a hut with chicken legs...
* An otyugh with a bottle of barbecue sauce and a little bib embroidered with the words, "Cleanup Crew".
That's sooooo not "the look."
But it is +1 internets, and the right choice, of course.
Ranger's ain't bad either. Lots of skills, archery, pet, full BAB, 2 good saves.
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Just admit it TOZ you fell for it!The fighter doesn't forget how to swing a sword after doing so a very limited number of times a day. Same with the rogue and picking locks. If anyone is comic relief, it's the kooky amnesiac wizurd.Oh, well played sir. I almost fell for it.
In the other thread, yes. Not this time.
my ideal 4
Switch Hitter Ranger
Bard
Oracle
Sorcerer
my problem with clerics and wizards, is that they are too dependant on consumables to schrodinger everything, a tactic that depends on lots of wealth.
Sorcerers and Oracles with the (Human) subtype who blow the feat tax to use paragon surge alongside milking the human favored class bonus, can at least Shrodinger a limited number of times per day by wasting a 3rd level slot to do so. it takes an action to do so, but damn, is it worth it for utility encounters?
it may be no more powerful than using a scroll, but it requires niether parchment, ink, nor scribing time.
You can maybe claim that fighters and rangers are wastes of space and I'm wouldn't think of disputing rogue, but barbarians bring powerful and unique capabilities.They get to use their CMB instead of their caster level to dispel magic. The menhir savant druid is about the only way to boost caster level above class level, compared to barbarians who can boost their dispel checks with strength, the improved and greater sunder feats, and since it's a strength check
I dont think they are waste of slots. Just that they don't bring much besides fighting. Other classes can fight just as well and can do a ton of other things for the party.
Even if you skip over low level play as your inquisitor example indicates there's nothing that takes down enemy buffs and duration spells like a barbarian.
I don't skip levels, O ussually play APs from 1 to the end (most the time, that's 15 to 18). First level often last for a session or two, while 12th level last for longer. You zip through 4 levels just in the first book normally. You are usually 8th or 9th level at the end of book 2. You spend more time at 9+ than you do at 8-
(Btw, there are like six zillions of ways to raise CL to dispel if you want so. Loreseeker trait, spell specialist, varisian tatoo, magical talent trait, abjuration specialist and perfect spell means +10 to caster level, not including magic items like the ioun stone or spells like death knell)
Court Bard for the debuffs.
There are three kinds of traps in the real world.
1) Traps for hunting. These are generally designed to not harm intelligent beings. They're obvious or nonlethal or operate on things smaller than a child or larger than an adult. Your PCs should never be in danger from hunting traps.
2) Traps for warfare. These are generally used over substantial areas and either improvised or portable. They also have to be cheaper than mooks. Perception is needed, but generally unless you're in an old battlefield disabling them is not an option because people are shooting at you to prevent you from doing so. The most common options are going to be landmines and pit traps. Pit traps of the crudity used in this context cannot be disabled except by putting something capable of supporting your weight over them. Mines are best handled with the some sort of summon because disarming a mine field manually with one rogue takes longer than most adventurers can spare.
3) Traps for security. These are always pure alarms because of the risk of accidental activation and collateral damage. Maybe some doors will close as well, but if you don't have a rogue dragging your average combat effectiveness down you can probably fight through. This is the only place a rogue might be useful, but dispel magic will do because absent the ability to link multiple alarms to a single bypass having layered alarms is inconvenient for the residents.
If you have deadly traps in an inhabited dungeon you have probably failed to think through your dungeon ecosystem. Monsters will no more build death traps in their home than you would scatter caltrops in the hallways of your own home. The exception might be manual traps, but these generally cannot be disarmed because the guards will manually trigger them when someone begins the attempt.
I would love to see a a whole thread discussing this issue.
There are three kinds of traps in the real world.
1) Traps for hunting...2) Traps for warfare. ...3) Traps for security.
If you have deadly traps in an inhabited dungeon you have probably failed to think through your dungeon ecosystem.
There’s another kind of trap: pest control. Humans put all kinds of lethal traps in their houses, just not any that can hurt a human. Mousetraps, ant bait, glue traps, etc.
A well-thought-out lair trap will be deadly to likely intruders, but harmless to the occupants. Gas traps in undead lairs. Appropriate energy traps in dragon lairs. Spiked pit traps in the lairs of casters with Overland Flight.
We also can’t overlook the possiblity of poorly-thought-out traps in, say, goblin lairs.
One kind of trap scenario I use that makes sense is Kobolds in a mine. Anything that ways over say 50 pounds sets off the pressure plate/ causes pit to collapse / whatever. Little bustards can run around with impunity.
with my ideal 4
my ideal 5th would be
an inquisitor, bonus points if switch hitter with conversion inquisition. can help with a handful of skills
can engage in melee or ranged combat enough to be a threat
has no need for charisma
can dip a level a trapper ranger for trapfinding to be a good trap dealer if the bard isn't doing so already and the ranger doesn't have it either.
FIFTH PARTY MEMBER CLERIC, LIKE PREVIOUS FOUR.
Dump the rogue, add a bard, and the last slot goes either druid or witch.
No brainer Bard!
No brainer Bard!
Bard is already in the first four :P
The 5th member multiclasses into a new class every level.
He'll be the party wand-wielder-- every spell is on his list, and he gets so many 1st-level spells per day he's in no real danger of running out. His BAB isn't much to talk about, but his saves are PHENOMENAL.
Great for a magus!
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with my ideal 4
my ideal 5th would be
an inquisitor, bonus points if switch hitter with conversion inquisition. can help with a handful of skills
can engage in melee or ranged combat enough to be a threat
has no need for charisma
can dip a level a trapper ranger for trapfinding to be a good trap dealer if the bard isn't doing so already and the ranger doesn't have it either.
A Ranger is good; She could shoot at a distance arrows/bolts to back up the Fighter, and protect the Wizard. . . .
Also, they have skills much like a Rogue, so there's backup!
with my ideal 4
my ideal 5th would be
an inquisitor, bonus points if switch hitter with conversion inquisition. can help with a handful of skills
can engage in melee or ranged combat enough to be a threat
has no need for charisma
can dip a level a trapper ranger for trapfinding to be a good trap dealer if the bard isn't doing so already and the ranger doesn't have it either.
A Ranger is good; She could shoot at a distance arrows/bolts to back up the Fighter, and protect the Wizard. . . .
Also, they have skills much like a Rogue, so there's backup!
Ranger
Sorcerer
Oracle
Bard
Inquisitor
especially if the ranger and inquisitor are switch hitters, the bard is an archer, the oracle can fight in melee, and both the oracle and sorcerer, have access to both the human favored class bonus, and the paragon surge spell via feat tax.
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I enjoy the idea that the fifth man fills the role of "heart." I.e. he plays a character that cements the rest of the party into an actual team by coordinating and making everyone of their talents shine. But, staying true to the trope, the role of "Heart" himself isn't meant to be fantastic or take the spotlight, but rather enable others to achieve their own greatness.
Obviously, I think the bard (with his slew of performances, skill rolls, and buff spells) is an excellent choice. The de-buffing witch fulfills the opposite result: soften the enemies up so that the party can shine.
A ranger who can share the love with the hunter's bond is a good option. A battlefield control or buffing spellcaster works nice. A cavalier with his charge boosts help a melee oriented party. A life oracle so that the party can do a sort of "interweave" formation, where they all switch places with one anoher through the oracle's space to gain healing, pick up their weapon, and resume murdering. Or prestige classes that deny AoO to opponents. In other words, this is the dude who should be the one making the party's divergent talents into one well-oiled machine. If there's one thing I actually like about 4e, it's the fact that everyone helps out the others. And there's nothing more satisfying than blowing away the enemies with what essentially amounts to an orbital friendship cannon...
So, anyone who can fill the roll of "party coordinator" fits. Which means Bard, Witch, Cavalier, Oracle, or Conjurer Wizard
Pretty straightforward question.
You have your Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue covered. You have 5 players. Who is your 5th man(or woman), and why?
I vote druid or ranger... Both cover skills the party may need in the wild, and builds can vary wildly. Lean towards druid, since at mid levels they can sneak better than a rogue (oh, everyone ignores a stray dog or raven.), deal nearly as much damage as a fighter at low-mid levels (4-12ish), can do backup summons, heal, and buff.
For the same reasons as druid, bard can work: They can be built to fill any need, and still overlap to other areas.
I agree with that.
And druids get unique spells the cleric and wizard don't get.