hmmm... I don't think that is a fair assessment. The brawler is a very strong front-line fighter. She's got good DPR and a fair amount of on-the-fly adaptability. Her job is not to fly or outwit a cyborg; her job is to hit people in the face with her body really well. And she does that admirably. She can definitely play in the same DPR league as the other pure non-magic martial classes. As other similar classes, she needs to rely on items and allies for exotic things (such as flying).
If I would issue a complaint against the brawler, it is that she's very un-iconic. There's not much that stands out. (Well, that is a lie, once Knockout and Awesome Blow become available, then very iconic things become possible - but that is the brawler late-game.)
Martial Manuevers is a trap; not being able to bypass prerequisites is terrible.
Brawler Strike is a trap; cold iron at level 9 is a little late, and adamantine is way too late.
Combat maneuvers are still weak with no means of additional bonuses except for feats that a Brawler probably can't qualify to use.
Martial Maneuvers using up multiple uses when activating at level 6 and 10 is bad (at level 10 a Brawler has 5 uses, but uses 3 of them with one activation, um...no).
Furthermore, the Brawler still has issues with having good AC or good attack.
Still a MAD class; why? W.T.F!! After all these years, why is a monk type character still a MAD class???
Well, after reading through this discussion and the revised Brawler, I think this class is nothing more than a trap.
For all of reasons described throughout the pages of this discussion. Just another failed attempt at reworking a failed core class. I also don't see any desire from the designers (all I see are excuses on why the Brawler can't have this or that feature to help overcome huge mechanical flaws with the class) to fix the problems with an archetype that doesn't rely on weapons or armor.
Studies strike stays the same (sort of, see below).
Studied combat becomes a move action to activate (with the quick study bumping it down to a swift). You then gain a half your investigator level bonus to melee attack rolls (as it is now) and as precision damage to the target (not multiplied on critical hits). You gain that precision damage even when you make studied strike. In other words there will be some wording that needs to be changed in studied strike to make that clear, because its time does not.
Thoughts?
I'll playtest this soon-ish but right now seems great! But I'd give him the poison stuff at 4th level and studied combat at 2nd level. (studied strike still at 4th level).
Combine both of these posts into one ability, and we have a winner. (4th level is way too late to gain such an important & distinctive class feature).
Noncombat challenges are almost exclusively designed such that one person solves the challenge for the whole party. If one person is a diplomancer the rest of the party doesn't have to be. If one person can find and disarm traps the rest of the party doesn't have to.
Combat challenges are group challenges. Everybody has to be able to fight.
The rogue is widely agreed to be broken (as in nonfunctional). If it's being used as the primary balance point the class isn't worth the paper it would be printed on.
This is the best post in this thread.
The only thing worse than having a useless character in combat, is having two.
After reading the revision, I'd never play the Investigator for simply one fact: it's a class that deals less damage than a Rogue without the ability to hamper the enemy effectively (i.e. debuffer). That alone says volumes. Further, the 3 changes listed by Stephen would not alter my opinion.
If I wanted to play a smart, puzzle solver, I'd just play a Ninja (better than a Rogue, but still not "good"), an Inquisitor (great at non-combat encounters, and a lot of potential in combat) or a Lore Warden (duh); all with a 14-16 INT.
I see but even your flippant approach seems overdone in a way. Why do I need to know what level she is, or that she needs to use a cerain "spell", or what a given stat is, or a bonus etc.
hmm, I want her to whistle and summon a bird from the trees nearby. Do I really have to look up a spell that allows her to do that? Why not just let her do it?
I want a hush to fall over the room, all exterior sound shut out. Must I find a spell effect than can do that? What does it hurt just to do it?
I roll my attacks and saves in secret to disallow the players to reverse-engineer their opponents bonuses.
I roll characters' Perception and Sense Motive checks behind my screen so they don't know whether they rolled poorly... or there really is no danger present.
Please refrain from calling that 'cheating'. Thank you very much.
I do admit to fudging the dice rolls occasionally; if the die result would mean thigs like 'Okay, they won't get the vital clue; scrap that part of the story you planned', I will merrily ignore the roll and carry on with the game.
At least you admit to cheating; more than most DMs that roll secretly.
Some of them tough it out and make new characters. The whiny ones leave.
All you are doing is discouraging players from "investing" in their characters, and encouraging roll-playing (the very thing this board hates the most).
Why bother coming up with a compelling story when the DM is just an ass-hat, itching to kill characters?
You have your Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue covered. You have 5 players. Who is your 5th man(or woman), and why?
Not sure why you are worried about the 5th character, when the Ftr and Rog need to be replaced first.
Ranger/Barb (melee), Cleric (range or melee), Wizard (duh), Bard/Ninja (range or melee-support) is the basic party. 5th should be a melee-focused caster (magus, druid, inquisitor). If the Cleric is a melee type, that leaves the 5th PC the option of range (Zen Archer, Ranger, or even an Inquisitor).
Change classes, what you want can't be done with a Monk. Nor can it be accomplished with any other class. Players can not "tank" in PF, as no one can make a monster attack them or prevent the monsters from attacking someone else. It's also hard to control where the baddies move. Sure a melee player can attempt to use some tricks or CMs to control the baddies, but really he is just wasting time (simply kill it and be done)
Combat maneuvers are a weak strategy to build around. It's also very hard to be "good" at more than one or two CMs (even 2 is pushing it). Soon the monster's CMD will sky rocket and you won't have very many successful attempts, if you can make an attempt all (due to monster size, extra legs, or other defensive abilities).
If your group fights humanoids most of the time (this is never the case in my local group, because of the catch22 nature of CMs), CMs can be effective (but only if you focus you character on CMs, which leads to gimping other areas).
Save yourself the heartache; change classes as soon as possible.
They only need to add one sentence to make it perfect now:
"The GM should use his judgement for situations that don't seem logical, with the stipulations above used as a guideline, for final determination if Stealth is broken or not."
Problem solved.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
That adds nothing to the game. It's all ready part of the rules.
Figthers, Barbs, or basically any mundane combat type. So boring: attack, done, attack, done. "Skill check"; "Ok, climb or swim? No, then I fail". However, I do occasionally dip into Figther for 2 levels (none of my toons are combat-monkies, they can hold their own, just that combat is an after thought; more or less if the toon can hit on single digits most of the time and deal damage in the teens at lvl ~10, it's good enough).
Rogues due to the fact that they are a gimped class. I'm all about skill-monkeys, but the other classes bring that and have better mechanics.
Wizards/Sorcs are dull because of limited actions in combat, and not enough class skills besides Knowledge.
Clerics, heck no. Nothing worse than a heal-bot, and everyone expects the Cleric to heal. "Heal me"; "I'm not a healer type Cleric"; "What, why play a Cleric, and not just XXX"? "Sigh".
Classes I like are any class with plenty of skills/points, utility magic, can fight (melee or ranged), and has plenty to do out of combat: Inquisitor, Magus, Summoner, Ninja, Monk (for dipping, and I so want this class to work, it's too bad it doesn't), Zen Archer (to level 6, then switch to something that broadens the characters non-combat role), Ranger, and Druid. I'm interested in playing an Oracle (no heal-bot), but haven't built one yet or looked too deeply into the class.
all i have to say is my tetori uses dimention door to grab dragons, then bowerbombs them to the ground, and beats the snot out of them.
he is a pure monk and is the second most bad ass character ive ever played.
you can take all your bs "monks suck" talk over then and bury it.
I'd like to see this build. I've tried to make Monk grapplers, but can't get the CMB high enough to beat most monsters above level ~11 or 12, without gimping the rest of the build.
Let alone that being the grappler kills your damage output, but being the grapplee doesn't. I'd hate to grapple a dragon and then get killed on its turn: claw, claw, bite, wing, wing, tail... :(
Unless your game permits otherwise, Monks have to be Lawful, and Cayden Cailean is Chaotic.
Monks only have to be lawful to take levels in Monk. Monks do not need to be lawful to use their abilities.
So, the first couple of levels are taken as Monk; at which point the character realizes a lawful lifestyle is a load of crap. He then switches to neutral, starts partying in the name of Cayden, and beats down anyone that causes trouble with a flurry of mugs to the face.
How many unarmed strike attacks does a Monk 1 / Synthesist 9, using Biped form with Limbs evolution purchased twice have (results in having 6 arms and 6 hands) when not using FoB, but taking T.W.F as a feat which then is replaced with Multiweapon Fighting?
Aww, is the fighter feeling outmatched and underpowered?
My mage astral projects from his private dimension, casts Time Stop, Gates in four Solars, casts Bigby's Middle Finger at the fighter, and leaves to do something more interesting.
So you were talking about Summoners being broken? Please continue.
Seriously, the problem as always, isn't that commoners are overpowered our unbalanced. The problem lies with fighters and rogues.
+1 internets to you sir.
Well said.
You do realize he had to use 6 9th level spell slots AND break the rules 4 times to pull that of, right?
Yes, but do you realize that he was refuting (with sarcasm) the ridiculous comments about anything better than a fighter is broken?
Aww, is the fighter feeling outmatched and underpowered?
My mage astral projects from his private dimension, casts Time Stop, Gates in four Solars, casts Bigby's Middle Finger at the fighter, and leaves to do something more interesting.
So you were talking about Summoners being broken? Please continue.
Seriously, the problem as always, isn't that commoners are overpowered our unbalanced. The problem lies with fighters and rogues.
Short story first (note, I'm not a writer, so no raging):
story:
Markus was a Constable in the City at the Center of the World, Absalom. The Law was his life. He fully believed in the Law; not only believing in the Law, but living the Law. This all changed on the day his wife was murdered. Not only did the Law fail to hold the criminal responsible, but the Law actually went so far as to protect the murder from the righteous justice he deserved. For the only evidence was a witness who saw the suspect leaving the victim’s home. In the eyes of the Law, this was not guilt, but Markus knew the truth. The criminal was guilty; he betrayed himself every time Markus looked in his eyes.
Markus' world collapsed: despair, grief, hopelessness, became his companions. Overnight his appearance changed. No longer were his feathered wings the shining beacons they had been; they had become black-leathery wings, changed to reflect the dark despair of his soul. The golden eyes that were used to find the truth were now red with hate. Markus was completely and utterly lost; so lost that fleeing in the darkness of the night was the only possibility.
For years he traveled seeking the answer as to why the Law had failed him. Visiting his order's monastery was a year of waste. Other orders failed as well to help his plight. Even the wisdom of religions failed to provide the answer; as the clerics could only offer platitudes and the never ending “will of the gods”. It wasn’t until after a dozen years of disorder and confusion did Markus find his answer.
Unbeknownst to Markus, the answer he had been in search of for over a decade was indeed found in a religion. A happenstance meeting of Skoris, a priest of Dranngvit, provided the answer. After a brief hearing of Markus’ story, Skoris explained that the Law had not failed, but rather man had failed. At first Markus did not believe Skoris, for in that statement was the implication that Markus had failed. Not only had he failed the Law, but also failed his wife. Recognizing the rage building in Markus, which Skoris reasoned was aimed toward him for revealing this truth, Skoris quickly elaborated on the purpose of the Law: Justice. Markus knew this purpose, for he once lived the life of seeking Justice, but he did not understand what Skoris was actually expressing.
Skoris explained: obtaining Justice is above all other considerations, that the end justifies the means. That vengeance against the criminal was justified in the pursuit of Justice. At the instant these words traveled across the seemingly vast distance from Skoris’ mouth to his ears, Markus grasped that this was the answer he sought.
Thus begins the quest of bringing low the murderer, the thief, the betrayer, the accomplice, the criminal. The quest for Justice!
Markus:
Zen Archer 6 – Synthesist 4 (Skill Monkey with a Bow)
Aasimar (175 years old; middle age)
Evolutions: Flight; Skilled (Diplo, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive)
Ki 11/day; Ki Powers (Barkskin 1 Ki; Gaseous Form 1 Ki)
Perfect Strike 7/day
Darkvision
Evasion
Resist 5: electric, acid, cold
Truespeaker (alternate racial trait)
Traits: Ease of Faith; Reactionary
Gear:
Longbow +3; Belt of Physical Perfection +2; Headband of Mental Prowess +4;
Bracers of the Falcon Aim; Cloak +2; Ring of Sustenance; Efficient Quiver;
Handy Haversack; Wand of Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser x3; Traveler’s Outfit;
Explorer’s Outfit; Ioun Torch; Pathfinder Kit
As I continuously have said... High stats / point buy does little to help casters but is a major help to mundane classes who need more ability scores high. It also makes them stronger compared to the summons. Ditto for using max hp (or 3/4 max, which is my preference) for PCs. And allowing for lots of magic items to be found/bought, too. Ones the players want, specifically. It's much harder for mundanes in a game where treasure is randomly rolled and there's no magic walmart.
This x1000. I've tried explaining these exact same concepts to the players in the my local area. As if 25pt buy and magic items some how makes PCs gods. Yet without those concepts mundanes suffer significantly more than casters.
I'm not qualified to say whether or not these characters are weak, but they are built using only the CRB. Crossbow Mastery comes from the APG. It would be interesting to come up with "improved iconics" that use all available feats, weapons, spells, etc, but then they wouldn't be iconic anymore.
Thanks for filling in the missing info, but the Ranger is still gimped. Without the APG there is absolutely no reason to use a heavy Xbow (fluff is not a reason, it's an excuse).
Stats are available at 1st, 7th and 12th level. They may not be fully optimized, but they're not deliberately crippled. No casting stats at 11, no Str 10 melee characters, etc.
So far I've reviewed (quick review while at work) a few of the Icons. The Cleric and Ranger seem deliberately crippled. Out of the ones I looked over, only the Druid seems competent; that is a far stretch from efficient.
Ranged Ranger with a Xbow without the ability to fire rapidly. Am I missing something? Improved Crit and PpT. were taken, but not Crossbow Mastery? So a level 12 ranged character has only 1 shot per turned? I must be missing something; otherwise that is deliberately crippled.
Cleric: what is she trying to do? Melee, Ranged, or Caster? Talk about MAD stats; complete fail. If she is supposed to fight in melee, why only one prepared Divine Favor, yet no Wand of DF? DF is the second definition (CWL being number 1) of a spell that should be used from a Wand.
The Druid didn't set off many major alarms, but for a caster druid her WIS is too low (by at least 4). And why have +3 Wildshape leather? If her goal is to avoid melee, just shape into a bird or something and fly away. Why the 16 CHA with no face skills (Handle animal doesn't count, especially for a Druid)?
I could go on, but really these Icons seem fairly weak (which of them is suppose to actually kill the BBEG, even the fighter doesn't deal squat for damage, where is Power Attack?), if not deliberately crippled (specifically the Cleric and Ranger).
Maybe call the iconic pregens the baseline. They're generally consider unoptimized, but they're not deliberately crippled.
I'm not sure what pregens you are referring to specifically, but pregens are gimped PCs (pregens of any game system). I can't recall any pregen character, of any system, that stood out as an effective character.
Unless a game was being run for noobs, with one or two vets to help out, I would not waste my time with a pregen.
Story is great, but so is an effective PC; both of these are available to every PC.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
For other maneuvers, either you’re not using a weapon at all, or the weapon is incidental to making the maneuver and its bonuses shouldn’t make you better at attempting the maneuver.
I don't use the term optimization; which entails thoughts of munchkinism, minmaxer, cheeser.
Instead it is very important to me to build efficient characters. The character doesn't have to be the biggest melee badass, or the most likable, or the greatest magician on Golarion. The character does need to pass most obstacles/tests without needing to roll high, jumping through hoops that are on fire, or making the once in a lifetime shot on a daily basis.
note that with grab, you are not considered to be only using the triggering body part (e.g. bite) unless you take a -20 penalty...
This doesn't make sense, because the rules for Grapple specifically state that humanoids must have 2 free hands or take a penalty on the grapple check. So if a Human must have 2 free hands in order to avoid a penalty, seems that the hands are the body part making the attack...
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.
If you have WF (Temple Sword), you would get the +1 for trip attacks. The +1 is a bonus on your attack roll, and the bonus is applicable to the weapon used.
my main beef with "WIS to hit" is that it overloads the ability score (especially if you allow it to damage too!). It would suddenly be doing the job of ST, DX, WIS (itself), and CON.
ST? - to hit, (to damage!)
DX? - to AC
WIS? - Stunning Fist, ki
CON? - Wholeness of Body (healing), especially if this becomes 'fixed'
This is a fallacious post.
First, no Monk is going to dump Con; even if the stupid WoB was balanced. I don't know of any class that dumbs Con, so using Con as a discussion point is pointless.
Second, why is it ok for a fighter to use STR in place of everything, but not a Monk (str to hit, for damage, for ac)?
Or why is ok for a Wiz to use INT and nothing else, or a Cleric using Wisdom?
There are plenty of classes that only need one stat, why not include Monk (or at the very least reduce the MADness to 2 stats)?
Good GMs allow players to build their characters however they want and do not dampen the magic item economy (unless you're intentionally running an adventure that wouldn't have a normal magic item economy - for the purpose of group interest, NOT because of PC paranoia - such as a pre-historic setting). Good GMs find other ways to challenge powerful PCs that don't involve restricting their freedom.
Great post, can't believe I missed it.
IMHO, the worst DMs are those that restrict a player's choices/freedom in building characters. Pathfinder all ready restricts the player enough, no further restriction(s) is needed or required from the DM.
The Point of the character is to be a mobile fighter that moves and Provokes Aoo's so that the rest of the party can move freely about the battle. I am having a serious issue with building Spell saves and Will saves to stop compulsion and loss of character control.
NVM my previous question; what you are wanting doesn't work.
I constantly see posts on various subjects that say something like "Magic shops ruin the game" or "Nothing is special if you can just order it from a catalog" or "If a PC can just buy an item then they will never appreciate it."
I understand those sentiments. In some ways I sympathize with them.
But I don't agree with them.
***snip for space***
Agreed, but there are many power hungry DMs out there that want to smother and control PCs.
To help counter those DMs, my favorite feats are: Master Craftsman, C.W.I., with Craft A&A not far behind.
The reason it is OP is BECAUSE IT IS CONJURATION WHICH MAKES CONJURATION EVEN MORE BROKEN AND EVOCATION EVEN MORE OF A DUMP SCHOOL.
That's not a reason, it's a fallacy. Which school a spell is in doesn't result in said spell being OP.
Is Conjuration more powerful than Evocation? Yep, because blasting sucks as a strategy; not because of what spells are in what school. Moving Snowball to Evo is not going to make Evo equal, nor will switching every other damage spell in the game.
