Or Azathoth, or even Groetus, for that matter? I'd been reading through the Cults of the Dark Tapestry, but I notice that a good deal of them are CN, meaning they could feasibly have CG worshipers. How exactly would that work? These gods are more CN out of apathy towards Good and Evil, but it's hard to picture any type of CG character that would worship any of them.
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I had the idea once for a CG summoner who worshiped Yog-Sothoth in a similar manner that a druid worships the forest. He is the gate and the key after all. Also, it works more if he tends to deal more with Yog-Sothoth's benign manifestation called 'Umr at-Tawil.
As for Groetus it depends on how you view the end times and his place in it. Is he the Destryer or the Herald of the Destroyer. Is it really the end of all things or simply the beginning of somethings new or a new cycle? One way to view him is like Shiva. Shiva is the destroyer and he shall be there at the end of the cycle and sit upon the waters of creation until the cycle begins where it will go back to Brahman starting anew.
Suffice it to say there is plenty of interesting interesting wiggle room to play with.
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I don't care what the "one step away" rule says.... if you're envisioning the destruction of the known universe and the annihilation of potentially billions of entities as a "Good" outcome you're using a different dictionary than I am.
Criminy......
I had the idea once for a CG summoner who worshiped Yog-Sothoth in a similar manner that a druid worships the forest. He is the gate and the key after all. Also, it works more if he tends to deal more with Yog-Sothoth's benign manifestation called 'Umr at-Tawil.
As for Groetus it depends on how you view the end times and his place in it. Is he the Destroyer or the Herald of the Destroyer. Is it really the end of all things or simply the beginning of somethings new or a new cycle? One way to view him is like Shiva. Shiva is the destroyer and he shall be there at the end of the cycle and sit upon the waters of creation until the cycle begins where it will go back to Brahman starting anew.
Suffice it to say there is plenty of interesting wiggle room to play with.
I agree, considering I too had an idea for a Chaotic Good Cleric of Groetus.
She is more of that doomsaying type who sees omens everywhere, rather than an active destroyer.
I don't care what the "one step away" rule says.... if you're envisioning the destruction of the known universe and the annihilation of potentially billions of entities as a "Good" outcome you're using a different dictionary than I am.
Criminy......
If you see it in an "death means life" way and see the current humanity as degenerated and bad it may be some form of CG to further the change, hoping everything will be better afterwards.
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I can easily see a CG worshiper of Groetus striving for the end of all Evil. And if they end up believing that it is not feasible in the world as it is. Well, it is not that huge a step to take.
Tabula Rasa. Clean the slate. Somewhere, some day, someone will get it right.
Creative Director
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Technically, the rules do allow for a CG cleric or other worshiper of Yog-Sothoth, or any other CN deity... but in practice whether or not something like this makes sense is up to the GM, based on his/her interpretation of the deity in question. Some gods and goddesses, such as Calistria and Gorum, are less focused on their alignment and I could see worshipers being the full range of CG, CN, or CE. To a certain effect, this is why these two deities are so widespread in worship, and are among the core 20 deities.
Lesser known/less common deities like Groetus, or even more obscure than that deities like Yog-Sothoth, simply don't have as many worshipers active on Golarion. Part of that is a result of their worshipers not being so well spread out across the alignments. Of course, when it comes to a PC, anything goes... but make sure your GM is cool with you worshiping as a CG priest of Yog-Sothoth first, because raiding Yog-Sothoth cults and temples might be a big thing he's got planned for the campaign...
As someone who has been a Guardian of CoC chronicles focused on the Dreamlands during five years, I don't find any good reasons to not allow a player roll a PC which worships the Tawil At-U'mr aspect of Yog-Sothoth.
I even thought of making him an aasimar
to be honest I even think they don't care about moral of a worshipper. (the CN ones)
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I even thought of making him an aasimar
to be honest I even think they don't care about moral of a worshipper. (the CN ones)
My own personal take: human(oids) are so beneath the notice of the Outer Gods that none of them are actually even bothering to empower clerics, with the exception of Nyarlathotep. Crazy Cult Leader guy may worship Azathoth, and think that he his a cleric of Azathoth, but Nyarlathotep is actually the one providing his divine empowerment.
I always thought the whole deity/cleric relationship was a bit more involuntary on the deity's part. There are plenty of examples of gods and beings who don't even know (or care) that they have worshipers, but they grant them power nonetheless.
Kind of like a vending machine, pop in a prayer, get a spell.
Or the cleric could have come to ol' Yoggie in the persuit of something else. As long as they're willing to build the towers for it and stuff sure it'll give them spells or whatever. Yog would be a good thematic choice for a mystic thurge with the wizard half dealing with travel/teleport/summoning etc.
But unless you're going through the gate and have the silver key, you're not going to be meeting Tawil Al-Umr face to horrible face I don't think it'd be interested enough to check your allignment.
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In all seriousness though I've been trying to find a way to pull off a CG worshiper of one of the outer gods or one of the more morally ambiguous gods. Currently I have a CG cleric of Groetus working for the Silver Crusade in pathfinder society, a gravewalker witch schooled in the works of the outer gods in Carrion Crown, and a Gillmen Alienist Summoner in the wings waiting for Carrion Crown in case the aforementioned gravewalker catches a bad case of dead. I'm also looking into doing a void cleric to Black Butterfly once I run through some of my other characters in pathfinder society.
If it helps the concept behind Akram is that of the gatekeeper of oblivion. He is a man who, for a tiny second, saw all that is and ever was to come in this world and in that moment learned two things. First is the ebb of Golarions history and an idea of how it will end and that everything, even the multiverse will end. Second he made it his job to make sure that all life is protected and kept safe until the stars come right and this universes time has come due. In an effort to promote that belief he has joined the pathfinder society and the silver crusade in particular, helping them promote good and happy lives as well as search out world ending terrors that might seek to preemptively cut Golarions life short.
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My own personal take: human(oids) are so beneath the notice of the Outer Gods that none of them are actually even bothering to empower clerics, with the exception of Nyarlathotep. Crazy Cult Leader guy may worship Azathoth, and think that he his a cleric of Azathoth, but Nyarlathotep is actually the one providing his divine empowerment.I even thought of making him an aasimar
to be honest I even think they don't care about moral of a worshipper. (the CN ones)
...why would Nyarlathotep, who is Chaotic Evil, ever give a Chaotic Good Cleric of Azathoth any power, especially if said Cleric wants to make sure Nyarlathotep leaves Golarion alone and goes do something else like bug Earth instead?
Of course, you are free to use your personal take in your own campaigns. I am simply questioning the logic of it.
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Probably the easiest way to 'justify' playing a CG cleric of Groetus or one of the Dark Tapestry CN sorts is that their worshippers are generally already referred to as mad or insane.
Nobody said 'insane' had to mean 'evil.' A benign nutjob cleric who does good deeds and preaches a 'seize the day' sort of philosophy, because he wants everyone to have the best life they can have, before the end times come and wash it all away, could be a fun twist.
Eat, drink and be merry. Live, love and be happy today.
For tomorrow, something is going to eat your planet.
Aroden died to throw prophecy into turmoil, not because he thought it would make the prophecies not come true, but because he thought it would be more merciful if mankind could not see the inevitable future, looming ever closer. As the god of history and innovation, among other things, he saw the end of history, and that no innovation could stave off the end times.
The genocide of his Azlanti people was just a small taste of what was to come.
A prophecy, if you will.
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The other thing to remember is time. All these beings are immortal super creatures that have most likely been around since the very beginning of existence and think in ways that literally fry human brains into babbling idiocy, so in the end all of it can just be a play at the long game for them. Think of it this way, an Outer God might actually really jump on the idea of having good followers, what better way to spread their dementia inducing knowledge then to allow it to be used for good? That way more are willing to take the risk at mastering it for the betterment of their species and theoretically either go crazy or expose more of the multiverse to the true powers of the mythos.
I like clerics but the darker gods interest me more in this particular setting, so this question has crossed my mind before.
Okay so strangely enough, Azathoth might be the easiest one for me here. In the Call of Cthulu rpg, Azathoth was some kind of last minute resort weapon against the other elder/outer gods. Maybe a pc thinks things have gotten that bad and maybe this god is the solution.
Groetus, well, he's mysterious. There's nothing that says he will cause the apocalypse. In fact, he might be the guy who renews the world again after it. So perhaps something with renewal. He seems to also be closely tied to Pharasma, who while isn't good, the whole destroying undead part of her doctorine certainly makes it seem that way, so maybe there's some kind of tie to some Pharasmans there or something.
And Yog-Sothoth actually does count as evil from what I've been reading, but hell if that will stop me. Yogsothoth is immense, to the point where it could be considered the Dark Tapestry incarnate. You could see him as some kind of primal force of the cosmos. Spellcasters worship him for power. Maybe a good character could do the same, after all, who's to say that many other good-aligned witches and wizards aren't drawing their power from a mysterious and somewhat questionable source.
And finally, all these gods are incomprehensible shadowy beings and they will continue to exist and have immense power without anyone worshiping them. Maybe their power could be viewed as a resource to do some good.
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Yog-Sothoth is the Gate. Yog-Sothoth is the Key.
Being the Gate to keep back / regulate / defend against the more chaotic and destructive of his ilk can be an aspect of Yog-Sothoth that might be venerated by a "good" character.
The Key is what got those Whateley folk in trouble - using Yog-Sothoth to achieve greater power.
I'm playing a CG follower of Azathoth in Giantslayer. He is an half-elf whose family was killed by giants leaving him an orphan. When he came across a book espousing the tenets of Azathoth, it made sense to him seeing as how he had lost all of his loved ones. He's essentially just a nihilist at heart who is searching for an appropriate and worthy death.
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All things must end. Nobody's saying they must end soon.
Besides, I would see a good-aligned worshiper of a creature like Yog-Sothoth as being similar to those who worshiped "evil" real-world gods. The gods are less evil people and more dangerous forces to be appeased, respected, and, yes, even worshiped. They bring important contributions to that table, even if that contribution is the grand finale.
In the Bestiary 4 entry for Bokrug (not exactly Yog-Sogoth, but they're on similar levels of Lovecraftiness) it said that most CG worshipers of his worshiped him to appease him and keep him from awakening. They revere him more out of fear than out of love for the god.
That's the fun thing about such inhuman deities—they don't expect your love. They just expect you to do what they want, and maybe, just maybe, they'll eat you first as a reward when they eventually do show up. ;D
Perhaps you're just trying to either pacify the god to extent the universe, or you think the universe is just a source of evil and it should be destroyed.
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You could worship Groetus strictly as a metaphor for "the destruction of the existing order makes way for the new."
As is, I have a CN Alchemist who "worships" Groetus out of a monomaniacal obsession with stopping it, or some aspect thereof, that drives his more specialized avenues of research.
A CG worshipper of Yog-Sothoth is much easier - in fact, read Through the Gates of the Silver Key, and I think you'll see a very good example right there.
All things must end. Nobody's saying they must end soon.
Or maybe, on some level, they perceive the cosmos the way Dr. Manhattan does? "Nothing ever ends."
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In the Bestiary 4 entry for Bokrug (not exactly Yog-Sogoth, but they're on similar levels of Lovecraftiness) it said that most CG worshipers of his worshiped him to appease him and keep him from awakening. They revere him more out of fear than out of love for the god.
yeah, but would that qualify for receiving clerical spells?
I mean, a cleric might be really scared of Rovagug, or even conducting rituals to keep him locked up - that doesn't mean he's getting spells from the Rough Beast.
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CG worshiper of Yog-Sothoth?
This? Me: A-PrrrrOOOOOOOOOOOOved!
I'll expect the character sheet immediately.
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Creative Director
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In the Bestiary 4 entry for Bokrug (not exactly Yog-Sogoth, but they're on similar levels of Lovecraftiness) it said that most CG worshipers of his worshiped him to appease him and keep him from awakening. They revere him more out of fear than out of love for the god.yeah, but would that qualify for receiving clerical spells?
I mean, a cleric might be really scared of Rovagug, or even conducting rituals to keep him locked up - that doesn't mean he's getting spells from the Rough Beast.
It absolutely would qualify.
A CG worshiper of any of the elder mythos is still going to be rarer than hen's teeth, but that doesn't mean they don't or can't exist. In fact, I deliberately set some of them at Chaotic Neutral just to allow such an unusual and strange choice.
And let's not forget the delightfully-named and appropriate "Worthless Pawn" dealie...
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In the Bestiary 4 entry for Bokrug (not exactly Yog-Sogoth, but they're on similar levels of Lovecraftiness) it said that most CG worshipers of his worshiped him to appease him and keep him from awakening. They revere him more out of fear than out of love for the god.yeah, but would that qualify for receiving clerical spells?
I mean, a cleric might be really scared of Rovagug, or even conducting rituals to keep him locked up - that doesn't mean he's getting spells from the Rough Beast.
It absolutely would qualify.
A CG worshiper of any of the elder mythos is still going to be rarer than hen's teeth, but that doesn't mean they don't or can't exist. In fact, I deliberately set some of them at Chaotic Neutral just to allow such an unusual and strange choice.
That doesn't make sense though.
"I want to contain you so your power doesn't get out... now gimme spells!"
I don't want to really get into the mechanics, but I hope you can understand my puzzlement.
Well, this isn't THAT crazy (or maybe it is, from an intentional point of view). We do have a canonical LN worshipper of Zon'Kuthon in one of the APs...
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That doesn't make sense though.
"I want to contain you so your power doesn't get out... now gimme spells!"
I don't want to really get into the mechanics, but I hope you can understand my puzzlement.
...that is not dead which can aeternal lie, for with strange aeons even Death may die...
You have entities that defy any conventional method of comprehension. They may even view 'empowering' agents as ways of 'escaping' their imprisonment 'on the cheap'.
Or worse, imagine the Old Ones as 'couch potatoes' and their pawns/priests/cultists whathaveyou are their televisions to watch a 'Reality TV series'.
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Stuff is gonna end. Bad stuff will happen, and we can't do anything about it. Why not enjoy the time we have left, get our affairs in order, you know? And hey, if we are diligent, it may be possible to prolong it all, sound good?
Yeah, CG cleric of Groetus sounds quite possible.
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That doesn't make sense though.
"I want to contain you so your power doesn't get out... now gimme spells!"
I don't want to really get into the mechanics, but I hope you can understand my puzzlement.
...that is not dead which can aeternal lie, for with strange aeons even Death may die...
You have entities that defy any conventional method of comprehension. They may even view 'empowering' agents as ways of 'escaping' their imprisonment 'on the cheap'.
Or worse, imagine the Old Ones as 'couch potatoes' and their pawns/priests/cultists whathaveyou are their televisions to watch a 'Reality TV series'.
except those are, as you said, empowering agents.
Someone who is actively seeking to contain the Elder Evils is not an empowering agent. Why would they receive divine power (or even want it) from an entity that they are attempting to restrain/defeat/put to rest? It doesn't make much sense to me.
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Well, this isn't THAT crazy (or maybe it is, from an intentional point of view). We do have a canonical LN worshipper of Zon'Kuthon in one of the APs...
Zon Kuthon I get. He's a bad guy - but he did save Nidal, he does have a truce with Shelyn, and he seems to have some kind of method to his madness. he's no Rovagug, and I can easily see an offshoot of his faith that isn't people jamming sharp sticks into their own eyes.
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He didn't make the truce with Shelyn out of the goodness of his heart, I assure you. I think he'd love nothing more than to make a dress out of her own intestines, then force her to wear it in a grotesque mockery of beauty and fashion. I mean, just look at what he did to his own father.
I suppose he saved them, but not without pulling out a price so horrific they might as well have died. Millenia of darkness in a country where pain is art and possibly an even more draconian government than Cheliax? I'm surprised people haven't decided to up sticks and leave it. Then again, there's probably about ten miles of barbed wire, assassins, and swords to ensure no one does.
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except those are, as you said, empowering agents.
Someone who is actively seeking to contain the Elder Evils is not an empowering agent. Why would they receive divine power (or even want it) from an entity that they are attempting to restrain/defeat/put to rest? It doesn't make much sense to me.
The Great Old Ones don't care. The "Worthless Pawn" lets you get spells of opposed alignments from them, for instance. The trait actually says, "Your existence is so meaningless to your chosen patron that it cares nothing for how you wield its power."
You're granted power because it doesn't matter. Nothing you do with that power ultimately as any effect.
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Why wouldn't a chaotic neutral deity grant spells to a chaotic good follower? Even if they might sometimes omit a few things from standard doctrine, they are still active in the world, and thus provide more visibility to their god. A good worshiper is probably more acceptable to the general society. That worshiper will focus on certain aspects of the god, but will also entice new worshipers... many of whom are likely to stick closer to the standard doctrine. That single CG worshiper can spawn a bunch of new CN or even CE worshipers, since staying good can be pretty demanding.
Essentially; a CN god would think that "any PR is good PR."
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And an Outer God doesn't even care that far.
Mortal actions or inactions are totally meaningless to most of them.
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That doesn't make sense though.
"I want to contain you so your power doesn't get out... now gimme spells!"
I don't want to really get into the mechanics, but I hope you can understand my puzzlement.
...that is not dead which can aeternal lie, for with strange aeons even Death may die...
You have entities that defy any conventional method of comprehension. They may even view 'empowering' agents as ways of 'escaping' their imprisonment 'on the cheap'.
Or worse, imagine the Old Ones as 'couch potatoes' and their pawns/priests/cultists whathaveyou are their televisions to watch a 'Reality TV series'.
Building on this, the Great Old Ones might be chronic procrastinators, knowing that they need to invade the Pathfinder Campaign Setting multiverse eventually, but being unable to resist the urge to empower those who help them to put it off a bit longer . . . Sort of like I know I really need to get around to doing my bills, but I can't resist the urge to keep stimulating discussion on these forums . . . .
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Building on this, the Great Old Ones might be chronic procrastinators, knowing that they need to invade the Pathfinder Campaign Setting multiverse eventually, but being unable to resist the urge to empower those who help them to put it off a bit longer . . . Sort of like I know I really need to get around to doing my bills, but I can't resist the urge to keep stimulating discussion on these forums . . . .
Building on this, what kind of bills would the Great Old Ones pay? Alternatively, if they undo all of creation, do they have to undo themselves, too? That could be one of those things that any sort of entity might push off indefinitely.
"Wait, what, I REALLY have to destroy all of reality with mad gibberings and brain meltings?" *sigh* "Yeah, yeah, your call's very important to us, we'll get back to you at some point, here's some mojo to keep your Austin Powers going..."
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For Groetus it'd probably be a sort of 'eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow cometh the end' type mentality, its all doomed but for the here and now, we're here and might as well revel in the glory of a doomed world, like mayflies in the dying sundown.
Dark Tapestry? You know there are things in this world more powerful than any god, any demon, devil or daemon, that care nothing for morality or the Rules of the games that are played with mankind and their souls as pieces. Feed Abaddon to Bokrug, let Mhar rent the Abyss, crack it open like an egg and spoon out the insides, all of hells scheming and planning and lies will come to nothing in the face of Azathoth, in all his blind, mad, dumb glory, how can Azmodeus worm his way out of such a confrontation?
Unleash upon evil, something that cares not for morality, and thus is as dangerous to them as to us.
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Probably the easiest way to 'justify' playing a CG cleric of Groetus or one of the Dark Tapestry CN sorts is that their worshippers are generally already referred to as mad or insane.
Nobody said 'insane' had to mean 'evil.' A benign nutjob cleric who does good deeds and preaches a 'seize the day' sort of philosophy, because he wants everyone to have the best life they can have, before the end times come and wash it all away, could be a fun twist.
Eat, drink and be merry. Live, love and be happy today.
For tomorrow, something is going to eat your planet.
I kinda always held the same view myself. Sorta like this.