Right. For more modern citings, Herman Hesse referred to Abraxas in Demian, and from there the reference made its way into Ikuhara's Revolutionary Girl Utena.
Is Mr. Schneider still taking questions? If so, here's one for him. Can a truly exceptional female devil eventually advance to become a new Whore Queen? I always wanted to add a Whore Queen whose influence involved birds, pride, vanity, and the seduction of women (aka a "proud as a peacock" Whore Queen but with the type of power that no male devil would want to risk "ruffling her feathers"). I'm a bit at a loss at a possible name though (I originally thought of Xinivrae but I believe that name might still be the property of WotC).
One question I have is do you see the Drow (Males in general, tired of the female dominant society) turning towards Devil worship and making Asmodeus vs. one of the many demon lords their patron deity? If so here are some side questions that tie into it
In Pathfinder are Devil’s and Demons in constant war with each other like in other RPG systems? If they are not at “war”, would worship of Asmodeus (or any archdevil) be tolerated in the Dark Lands or would this type of worship need to be kept in secret? Because as I read through the Lords of Chaos book it showed many Demon Lords the Drow worship and with there being many (vs. one main god like in 3.5).
This information is to help keep a character’s creation more authentic to pathfinder cannon vs. homebrew alterations to “make it fit” as I want to roll up a Male Drow Wizard/Cleric of Asmodeus (MT Prestige class).
In Pathfinder are Devil’s and Demons in constant war with each other like in other RPG systems?
Pathfinder does not have the Blood War.
Demons and Devils still hate each other, but they aren't at war any more than they would be at war with Angels.
That is good to know but do you think Asmodeus worship in the Dark Lands would be tolerated in a city or where Demon Lord worship is dominate would this be kept on the down low?
That is good to know but do you think Asmodeus worship in the Dark Lands would be tolerated in a city or where Demon Lord worship is dominate would this be kept on the down low?
The Evil gods tend to be jealous types. Generally speaking, if you have ANY differing religion in an area dominated by one specific Evil faith, you should expect conversion by the sword.
In my language the names of the Malbranche are less than threatening. Any suggestions for non-canon alternatives?
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If I were looking to rename these characters in ways that have similarly ominous impacts, but that don't have specific meanings in Italian, I might suggest the following options.
The first set takes the existing names and replaces them with the names of fallen angels (as listed in Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels).
■ Alichino - Astoreth
■ Barbariccia - Balberith
■ Cagnazzo - Caym
■ Calcabrina - Carnivean
■ Ciriatto - Carreu
■ Draghignazzo - Danjal
■ Farfarello - Ezequeel
■ Graffiacane - Gressil
■ Libicocco - Lauviah
■ Malacoda - Marchosias
■ Rubicante - Raum
■ Scarmiglione - Senciner
Alternatively, if you'd like less directly Judeo-Christian options, try these from Theresa Bane's Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures.
■ Alichino - Ayperor
■ Barbariccia - Bensozia
■ Cagnazzo - Chordeva
■ Calcabrina - Ciuapipiltin
■ Ciriatto - Conferentes
■ Draghignazzo - Diralisen
■ Farfarello - Finaxos
■ Graffiacane - Gandarewa
■ Libicocco - Librabis
■ Malacoda - Mascarvin
■ Rubicante - Ramaratz
■ Scarmiglione - Serguliath
Hopefully these (or some combination of these) are helpful and don't come off as silly in your language in the same way.
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Hey, I don't know if this has been answered yet, but when was Typhon slain and when did Barbatos appear at Hell's gate? Was it after the rise of man (in other words, is it dated?) I have some ideas for characters who might follow Barbatos, but I also have some theories that might interfere with how I design them.
I'd posted this in the recent thread about Milani, but it probably more properly belongs over here (revised somewhat for more theorythink):
1) Mr. Jacobs has identified as Asmodeus as an ascended devil.
2) Tabris is almost certainly bonkers (more as an occupational hazard than any fault of his own), and the accuracy of his accounts in the Books of the Damned are suspect.
3) This could indicate that Asmodeus was not always a true god, like Asmodeus himself claims.
4) That opens up the possibility that Asmodeus was originally an angel (probably an empyreal lord), became the first devil when he fell from grace, and ascended to godhood as part of the repercussions of his fall. Perhaps as the first fallen celestial he filled a hole in the universe that was previously unknown?
5) Asmodeus as the first fallen angel fits pretty well with the Devil's classic roots.
6) That sort of timeline could mean that the first devils (Asmodeus, Dispater, Mammon, Baalzebub) predate Hell itself - or at least Hell as it now exists in the Pathfinder universe.
7) An amusing ramification is that if Asmodeus is a devil/fallen angel, then he's probably an ascended mortal soul - a lowly origin that he might find mortifying.
8) Which brings up - maybe Ihys wasn't Asmodeus's brother. Maybe he was Asmodeus's maker and master, making Old Scratch's betrayal and eventual deicide against Ihys an actual rebellion.
9) Second amusing ramification - assuming Ihys as a common creator, that could make Sarenrae Asmodeus's little sister, as much as the term applies to such beings.
If Asmodeus is an ascended something, it can't be a devil, because his role as master of all the devils is so complete I can only imagine him as their maker. (Pathfinder lacks the idea that he usurped another Devil, and thus is on guard against betrayal from below: he's not just the greatest archdevil, he's a deity.)
That doesn't rule out the classical 'paradise lost' fallen angel origin: That makes Asmodeus the first devil, and all the other devils either his creation or angels that fell with him, which is fine. Being the 'first X' is a canon way to become a God: Urgathoa was the first undead, for instance.
To riff on Ihys being Asmodeus's maker, what if Ihys was the original ruler of Hell, either as a fallen angel of the same vintage as Asmodeus (making Ihys into D&D's Lucifer) that Asmodeus supplanted, or as the 'native' God before Asmodeus showed up with a bunch of refugee Devils/Angels and negotiated a partnership that turned into a betrayal?
In either of those cases, Asmodeus stole Ihys's Godhead.
Boo! I like the history Tabris gave us. Who says the conspiracy nutter hasn't got the right of it?
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I think the point is that the mythology is more interesting if we can't say "this is definitely the right answer". Maybe Asmodeus' self-proclaimed history is right. Maybe he's lying. Since we can argue over which one is true, that gives depth and interest to the situation, rather than "according to The Big Book of Facts, page 314, my position is objectively true. No more discussion!"
I note that the only info we get in Inner Sea Gods sticks to the Tabris account.
I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.
Why is it so weird to think that Asmodeus is an ascended devil? Sarenrae is an ascended angel.
Because Devils are sort of by definition 'servants of Hell'. And Hell is a LE hierarchy. Someone is in charge of Hell. If Asmodeus is an ascended devil, then who was the ruler of Hell when he was still just a devil, and what happened to him/her? I don't reject Asmodeus as an ascended outsider in general: Devils being fallen angels is an old trope. But being ascended from the ranks of devilkind rubs me the wrong way.
Angels don't have the same 'someone is in charge' problem.
On the other hand, there have been several instances where different Paizo people disagree on certain elements of the setting. I tend to look more toward Wes Schneider as the devil expert, and go with his views on things.
I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.Any particular reason outside of personal preference? The Mythic Realms model at least is opened ended enough so that you can have an adventure involving the Starstone without it being the end of your campaign. Because that's what happens when you make PC's into gods... end of PC's story.
Because for years the Starstone was this mysterious power source that could bootstrap mortals to Godhood, and now is less a power source and more something you can blackmail Gods into giving you power with.
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Necroing this thread because the primary architect of Pathfinder's take on Hell just left Paizo. I am currently listening to Castlevania music as I do this, because that seems right.
Various bits of new info that had come to light over the past couple years:
1) Asmodeus used to be an empyreal lord. While he's an old god at this point (like Sarenrae), he's almost certainly not part of the OG crowd (like Pharasma or the Outer Gods) like he claims he is. His real relationship to Ihys is unknown. (My theory is Ihys created Asmodeus, as I've noted before in this thread.)
2) Asmodeus found Hell while exploring the Great Beyond as an empyreal lord. Even back then, he's been planning rebellion against the heavens, and while exploring the original Hell he met Geryon, an ancient Asura rana.
3) Asmodeus recruited Moloch, a powerful exscinder archon shortly before beginning his rebellion against the heavens. Moloch, in its unquestioning obedience to Asmodeus, found new purpose as an ironclad demigod of war.
4) Asmodeus had already been planning to fall back to Hell before he even rebelled, and led his forces there when the appropriate time came for Exodus.
5) Asmodeus then entered into a contract with Hell itself, becoming its (her?) undisputed master. In exchange, he transformed a layer of Hell, Cania, into the first archdevil Mephistopheles. The Red Prince is Hell made flesh, and acts as the mouthpiece of the entire plane.
6) Asmodeus, with Geryon's aid, managed to defeat the various Asuran Ranans, Kyton Demagogues, and other demigods who already held most of Hell's territory. Asmodeus rewarded Geryon by transforming it from an Asura into an archdevil and affirming its status as now undisputed lord of Stygia, its home layer in Hell.
7) Some time long after that, the psychopomp usher Mahathallah passed journeyed through the River of Souls so that she could be judged by her mistress Pharasma and learn of her ultimate fate. What she learned horrified her so much that she abandoned her station and duties, and ultimately entered into service under Asmodeus to try to escape it, becoming one of the Queens of the Night (a.k.a., one of Whore Queens).
8) Between Hell Unleashed, Bestiary 6, and comments by Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Schneider, we got some nice updates on the upper end of Hell's hierarchy -
A) - the Dukes of Hell, advanced pitfiends with extra hit dice, special abilities, and class levels, generally CR 21 to 25 (like demonic balor lords and kyton eremite overlords)
B) - the conquering Malebranche - unique CR 21 to 25 quasideities, like nascent demon lords and daemonic harbingers. While we have not yet seen a malebrance in print, Mr. Jacobs has indicated he'd like for them to have custom abilities reflecting the planet they are tasked with conquering.
C) Infernal Dukes and Queens of the Nights - CR 26 to 30 demideities, capable of possessing divine realms within the layers of the Hell. The peers of demon lords and empyreal lords.
D) The Archdevils, CR 26 to 30 demideities who each claim an entire layer of Hell as a divine realm. The peers of the Four Horsemen.
E) Asmodeus (and perhaps Hell itself) at the top, of course.
Interestingly enough, Archdevils and Infernal Dukes are nearly identical in terms of mechanics. The actual difference is the sheer scale of the forces and territory commanded by an Archdevil, up to and including all of of the Infernal Dukes and their realms and forces within a plane.
Which also neatly summarizes the difference between the chaotic evil demons and the lawful evil devils.
Nocticula, a CR 30 demon lord, cannot risk sharing her territory with another demon lord and is pushing her luck even employing a nascent demon lord (Shamira). Even Lamashtu, an actual goddess, wasn't willing to risk hosting Baphomet in her court once he become an actual demon lord (and demigod).
Meanwhile, Barbatos, the weakest Archdevil at CR 26 (and not actually a devil at all!), commands the loyalty and cooperation of potentially dozens of infernal dukes who are individually just as strong or actually stronger than it is. But Asmodeus put Barbatos in charge, and thus it is the boss.
Devils actually care about the chain of command, and can trust each other to follow it.
Demons don't and can't.
9) As a goofy thing - Dahak, the chaotic evil dragon god of destruction, was ceded a divine realm by Mephistopheles in the 8th layer of Hell. Dahak in return crafted the artifact quill that Mephistopheles writes its contracts with.
Dahak roamed the "primeval" Hell for a time; I don't know if that means Dahak had been to Hell before Asmodeus ever ruled it. Regardless, Dahak, despite being chaotic evil, gets along well with Asmodeus and Mephistopheles, and has devil servitors.
Hopefully the upcoming Book of the Damned hardcover will provide additional details about Hell. Otherwise we probably won't get more until Mr. Schneider does another archdevil or night queen article.
@ Davia D - They're pieced together from the articles for Mephistopheles (Hell's Rebels 6, Breaking the Bones of Hell), Moloch (Hell's Vengeance 3, the Inferno Gate), and Geryon (Hell's Vengeance 5, Scourge of the God-Claw).
Necroing 9) As a goofy thing - Dahak, the chaotic evil dragon god of destruction, was ceded a divine realm by Mephistopheles in the 8th layer of Hell. Dahak in return crafted the artifact quill that Mephistopheles writes its contracts with.
Dahak roamed the "primeval" Hell for a time; I don't know if that means Dahak had been to Hell before Asmodeus ever ruled it. Regardless, Dahak, despite being chaotic evil, gets along well with Asmodeus and Mephistopheles, and has devil servitors.
What is the source of *this* information? Especially the part about Dahak & Mephistopheles and the quill and Dahak's bargained "divine domain".
Please do disregard that I completely botched the reply, but I am curioud of the source.
Dahak's entry in Inner Sea Faiths goes into how Dahak met Asmodeus, received his divine realm in the 8th Layer of Hell, and repaid Mephistopheles for it with the quill. (Mephy's entry in Bestiary 6 details what the quill actually does.)
Examples of Dahak's servitors include an extremely short-tempered contract devil.
On the subject of creation stories and dragons, I note that there's a lot of similarity between Asmodeus' tale and Apsu's. Two opposed original beings, an eventual war, only one still around, etc. Could it be that they are, in essence, two points of view on one event, that Asmodeus is Tiamat, and that Apsu and Ihys are one and the same? That would go a long way to explaining CE Dahak's residence in Hell, among other things. It would also cause more problems than it solves, probably. But in a more general sense, could the tales be related somehow?
On Dispater, Ragathiel, and Eiseth: Have we ever gotten anymore I for on what the rumored relationship between Eiseth and Ragathiel is? Were they once lovers? More scandalously, are they still lovers? Did she redeem him before her fall? Was he responsible for her fall, before his redemption? Was Widow's Cry once Ragathiel's place (or at least built for him, since it seems he was raised outside of Hell)? There was mention earlier that Dispater might just be biding his time, expecting Ragathiel to fall and join him one day, but Ragathiel seems to be as powerful as his father, ruling a whole layer of Heaven, and having already destroyed one of his father's peers. If Ragathiel were to fall, might he depose his dad instead of serving him (uniting, or reuniting with Eiseth in the process)? Might he take down and replace Moloch, who seems to be his opposite number?
1) Going to have to say no to Ihys and Apsu being the same.
A) Apsu and Asmodeus were strangers until they met fighting Rovagug. (Asmodeus may have met Dahak earlier.) Asmodeus has offered both dragon gods an alliance since then, though what Asmodeus will get out of it is unknown.
B) Ihys is pretty thoroughly dead (which kinda stops him from being Apsu) - the remains of the weapon that struck the deathblow is an actual artifact that's located in Hell right now.
2) I'm not aware of any new info about Ragathiel and Eiseth. As to Ragathiel deposing any of the Archdukes - not without Asmodeus's permission. I could see a fallen Ragathiel becoming the head over a new effort though - Moloch's primarily focused on the conquest of the Prime Material. Ragathiel becoming Hell's lead general as to Outer Planar matters would be interesting. Heh. He might be charged with conquering and ripping a chunk out of another plane in order to serve as the basis of a 10th layer of Hell. (As there's precedent for adding layers - Asmodeus made the 3rd layer just for Mammon.)
As to A) and B), isn't that info mostly coming from Asmodeus? Considering that he has the Trickery domain and Deception subdomain, I'm not sure I'd trust any of that. You're probably right, though.
A) Comes from the Apsu and Dahak articles in Inner Sea Faiths.
B) Comes from Book of the Damned Vol. 1, which actually describes the location the weapon fragment is sealed away for safekeeping (and the disastrous effects of letting it out). I.e., it's GM info rather than from the quite distinctive flavor sections.
Chronicle of the Righteous says of her "it is even whispered that she may have some relation to Ragathiel." The idea that perhaps they were once lovers (etc) is me guessing based on that sentence fragment. Maybe it means instead that they're half-siblings. It's pretty much all guesswork from there.
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Here's the quote:
Though few beings now remember, Eiseth was once an
empyreal lord of righteous wrath and punishment, and it is
even whispered that she may have some relation to Ragathiel.
The fact that it states outright that she was once what Ragathiel is, then relates the existence a whispered relationship of some sort suggests to me that the whisper is something more than the fact already stated, and probably something illicit or shameful that one or both wish to keep hidden.
@ Alvane and Ouachitonian - it's probably worth noting that Eiseth's write-up for the hardcover Book of the Damned doesn't mention Ragathiel at all.
Depending on the time scale of things - it's entirely possible that Eiseth fell before Ragathiel was even born, and IIRC Dispater's on good terms with all of the Queens of the Night.
So it's entirely conceivable that Ragathiel met Eiseth while he was a child, but Ragathiel was still a child when his mother left Hell to return to the Plane of Fire.
@ CorvusMask - Heh. To Zepar, everything is breeding stock. Zepar would be a great fit for Lamashtu's court if he was chaotic. (Though as an infernal duke, he probably fits right into the Archdevil Belial's court instead, as a more hedonistic and far crueler Dr. Moreau.)
While the malebranche descriptions are deliberately vague, some of them contain just enough info to make a reasonable guess. I can't remember where the original post about this is, so I'm trying to recreate their reasoning by memory.
Barbarica is in a jungle of evils, so probably Castrovel (which pretty much ALL jungle).
Draghignazzo and Scarmiglione are in the remains of a "conquest too complete," so probably the Diaspora (which is an exploded planet).
Farafello "haunts a land of the dead," so almost certainly Eox.
Malacoda allegedly conquered 8 worlds and brought his spoils with him, so quite possibly on Apostae (which is hinted to be some sort of lost colony ship rather than an actual planet).
Calcabrina, "dreamy mistress of twilight," "dwells within a tower of ether" (ether's ancient meaning is "pure air"), so one of the two gas giants. I'd guess Liavara (the Dreamer), which is allegedly enormously rich in magic.
Rubicante is a prince of rust and ruin, so probably Aballon with its robot people.
Cagnazzo seems to be a lord of war, and so is probably on Akiton, Golarion's Mars analogue.
Circiatto, Graffiacane, abd Libicocco are way harder to place. Whichever one of them got Triaxus definitely drew the short straw.
Though I'd bet Libiccoco's "mission to destroy" puts her on Aucturn, which might be a Great Old One rather than a planet. Asmodeus doesn't want to own that, he just wants it gone. (Though a similar argument could be made for Aballon if robots don't have souls, which would put Rubicante elsewhere.)
Still looking forward to a malebranche getting statted out. Mr. Jacobs indicated he wanted them to have unique abilities reflecting the planet they're assigned to.