... and if so, when and how?
Yes, we use WBL, one way or another.
In 2nd Darkness, when a replacement player was brought in, he received full WBL. This was due to that AP being a magic item rich environment. We were rolling in +1 Rings of Protection etc.
In Kingmaker, our two replacement players were given 1/2 WBL because KM simply isn't as free with the toys. The DM felt like the new players had a huge advantage in being able to build higher level characters and custom magic items. In order to mitigate that advantage, he cut their starting gold.
Basically, we start with the assumption that full WBL is the order of the day, with the understanding that it can change due to special circumstances.
Thanks loaba. Do you ever adjust the existing party according to WBL guidelines? If, for example, the party is low, do you drop extra gold or items to bring them up? If they are high, do you cut back on gold and items?
I'm not asking if you (or others) adjust loot by feel as you go along, I mean do you consult WBL tables and ask characters to total up their loot to see how they are doing compared to the WBL guidelines and react accordingly?
I use it in my SS campaign. As long as players are within a few K of their level I don't worry about it. And, when possible, I do adjust found loot to try to get them back into a correct area.
The game I'm a player in appears to have taken one look at the WBL table, laughed, crumbpled it up, chewed on it, spat it out, put it in a bag of holding, and then put the bag of holding in a portable hole.
Yes, we're level 5 characters with cubes of force.
When I run games, I try to follow WBL.
Thanks loaba. Do you ever adjust the existing party according to WBL guidelines? If, for example, the party is low, do you drop extra gold or items to bring them up? If they are high, do you cut back on gold and items?
We let it roll, if you will. In SD, when I DM'd my chapter, I tried to cut things down a bit. We just had so much stuff and it was bordering on the ridiculous.
In KM, seems to me that the DM is having us deal with less magic drops and just kind of accepting it. We did just score a huge pile of loot off of a big nasty and that's the first in a while.
I'm not asking if you (or others) adjust loot by feel as you go along, I mean do you consult WBL tables and ask characters to total up their loot to see how they are doing compared to the WBL guidelines and react accordingly?
For the books to come out and the tables to be consulted, the group would have to demonstrate an overall ineffectiveness in combat. So the short answer is no, we don't really let it control things.
As long as the party is effective and the baddies are played reasonably and accordingly, we let the gold fall as it may.
do you consult WBL tables and ask characters to total up their loot to see how they are doing compared to the WBL guidelines and react accordingly?
No. See? Some of my answers can be short answers! ^_^
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... and if so, when and how?
I do use WBL, as I have found that it combined with a reasonable point buy "15-20" keeps the party where I can use Bestiary monsters without having to do serious revision work.
I honestly keep a record of all items currently possessed by the characters which includes such things as scribed spells and consumables and compare that versus the WBL table multiplied by the number of people in the party.
As an example for a party of four level two adventurers I ensure that they have a total of around 4,000 gp of gear/treasure.
Now this is not an exact science and they may at one point have 3,600 gp or 4,400 gp but small fluctuations generally work themselves out and do not generally affect APL as I see it.
I do not however, count expended consumables, only on hand consumables as part of WBL.
I do count a crafted magic item as full price towards WBL, this is due to the fact that I do use the purchase limits and base limits from the GMG therefore getting exactly what item you want is the perk of item crafting rather than magnified WBL. This is a taste issue and I honestly am not trying to say it should be this way this is just the way my group and I enjoy.
This is all due to the fact that I see WBL as a sort of "power meter" which helps keep the party at the appropriate APL therefore enabling me to use stock challanges without extensive rework.
I don't particularly keep a close eye on it. Every now and then if I feel it's been too long without treasure I just toss a windfall at the party next time they stumble across a previously empty room or fight a tough enemy.
Only as a rough guide if one of the players ends up with a dead character and wants to bring in a new one. We've been running APs lately so have been sticking pretty much to the script in terms of equipment. In the homebrews we run from time to time we never even look at it.
In my game: No, not really. I am running RotRLAE so if thats keeping things WBL then cool, but I don't really think it is, least it doesn't feel like it. I am also adding lots of extra little adventures with gear.
One of the games I am in: We were not, at all, using WBL until recently. We were given a magic plot item at some point that the GM allowed us (me) to sell for an outrageous amount. He did this thinking his plans for what would happen from me selling the cloak would be consequence enough. Well he flubbed that up and now I am walking around like superman in my nigh invulnerable gear while my pleb party members stand around and watch the one-man show that is me.
I ended up talking to him about it saying it wasn't fair, nor fun. So as of this last level up we are all resetting our gear to the WBL standard for this level and buying everything from scratch.
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I'm not exactly sure what "use WBL" means, but I think I use it.
Every couple of levels, I scope out the PCs' gear values (which is easy, because we use Hero Lab). If it's within about 20 percent of WBL, circumstances (like crafting feats) considered, all's well.
If it's off by more than that, I'll take steps to adjust it, inserting wealth into or pulling wealth from the adventure.
I'm not exactly sure what "use WBL" means, but I think I use it.
Every couple of levels, I scope out the PCs' gear values (which is easy, because we use Hero Lab). If it's within about 20 percent of WBL, circumstances (like crafting feats) considered, all's well.
If it's off by more than that, I'll take steps to adjust it, inserting wealth into or pulling wealth from the adventure.
It means exactly what you thought it meant. You answered the question exactly as intended. :)
I don't pay much attention to it.
It depends highly upon who I'm playing with. Quite often I do yes, mostly because drastic changes like that require a lot of explanation and that can be difficult with people you've only just met at a coffee shop for the first time. I'd rather just jump right into the game and that means having as few house rules as possible. Everyone needs to be on the same page.
But when I play with anyone I've been gaming with for a long time, almost no one likes it, so we usually avoid it.
I use it to help keep track of generally how powerful my players are compared to average characters of their level, but I don't give it much mind beyond that.
Generally, I find it a simple matter to choose monsters/NPCs for players to fight based on what their specific strengths are; attack vs ac, average damage vs hp, etc. If I want to throw in something particularly strong, I'll throw in an extra strong magic item.
Since I can always up the stakes if my player's items make them a bit too powerful, why bother with WBL?
I would use it if I were starting a campaign above first level, or to determine what PC geared NPCs should have.
I use it as a guideline, but am not a slave to it. If the players fall a level behind I am not too concerned knowing they will probably later pass it up. I tend to use it more for bringing in new characters.
Every couple of levels, I scope out the PCs' gear values (which is easy, because we use Hero Lab). If it's within about 20 percent of WBL, circumstances (like crafting feats) considered, all's well. If it's off by more than that, I'll take steps to adjust it, inserting wealth into or pulling wealth from the adventure.
I do the same for my S&S campaign, as does the GM of the Kingmaker game I'm a player in.
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For any campaign I run I calculate the difference between the WBL for the PCs current level and the next level, multiply it by the number of players, then multiply it by 1.5 (to accommodate for selling losses, consumables, and adventuring costs). That is the total value of treasure the PCs will acquire before the next level. Generally 1/3 of it is coinage, gems, trade goods, etc, another 1/3 is gear that is likely to be used, and the last 1/3 is gear that is likely to be sold and other sellables. Additionally, new characters are brought in with WBL for their level.
The short answer to your question then is yes, I use the wealth by level guidelines.
I use it for campaign planning and new PCs above 1st level. It really helps alot in keeping the gear part of the game balanced with less thought.
I use it as a guideline, but am not a slave to it. If the players fall a level behind I am not too concerned knowing they will probably later pass it up. I tend to use it more for bringing in new characters.
I think new characters are the biggest use for it in our game, too. Although when one of our characters died, we decided to bury the hero with his armor and weapons, and the rest of his valuables and his cut of the treasure was sent home to his family. That way, when the new character came in with full WBL, the rest of the party wouldn't be overpowered in the context of wealth. A bit of metagaming, but it also worked out in-character, too.
In my game... I use it as a spring board for see where my players' total cost of gear should be. If someone's rolling a new character at a later level, sure, they can use that. If someone's performing poorly in combat, I double check WBL to make sure they're on par gear wise.
That said I usually tend to spoil my players, handing out arguably awesome stuff above WBL(Like everyone got one Magic Item to start with at the beginning of my homebrew). But then again, typically my players like to play high risk, high reward games...
I would only use it for someone making a new character at higher than level 1. Other than that, no.
I would only use it for someone making a new character at higher than level 1. Other than that, no.
This statement is interesting to me.
I am honestly curious, about some things, not trying to attack or nitpick so please explain if you have time the answers in your game to the following questions.
1.)What do you do if a player brings in a new character according to the WBL table, let us say at level 10, so the character has 62,000 gp worth of gear, and the other party members only have say 30,000 gp of gear due to a treasure poor area/streak? Especially if this will continue for a level or two then the new PC will be substantially stronger than the others.
2.) What do you do in the reversed situation where a new PC comes on-board with the standard level 10 62,000 gp of gear and every one else has let us say 120,000 GP worth of gear?
Just curious as it seems to me that only using the WBL table for characters that are created past Lvl 1 can be problematic if you do not apply it to other in game characters, and I am curious how you resolve it.
I kind of totally hate it and the fact that PCs are expected to be fabulously wealthy very quickly. When I run games, I don't use any magic items, and I keep monetary rewards fairly small or give mostly non-coin treasure while keeping the party far away from civilization. I want them to retire when they get back from saving the world, but not have unlimited supplies beforehand.
In the game I'm PCing in, the GM is just running Carrion Crown straight--however, the party is 8 people and while he has adjusted the difficulty up (too far, more often than not), he's not increased the already meager rewards. He also rolls randomly to see what magic items are available for sale in town. However, when someone dies and makes a new character, he gives them full WBL for their level, so it's kind of (ridiculously) been awesome to die because you end up with more and better stuff than the rest of the party combined.
New characters strictly use WBL for starting.
Every 3 or 4 levels, I ask everyone to total up their WBL, and see where they are. if they're within 10 or 15 percent, all good. If they are off by more than that either way, I usually adjust treasure handed out a bit until I think they're back in.
Note that this is a very swingy thing. Sometimes they go 20-30% ahead, then get no goodies for awhile, sometimes they get pretty far behind (lost in plots, etc) then catch back up over a few sessions.
>>Wealth by level, do you use it?
Yes as a guideline and when a character has to be created at higher levels. (Think replacement character) But I don't worry if it is off, just if it is way off.
I would only use it for someone making a new character at higher than level 1. Other than that, no.This statement is interesting to me.
I am honestly curious, about some things, not trying to attack or nitpick so please explain if you have time the answers in your game to the following questions.
1.)What do you do if a player brings in a new character according to the WBL table, let us say at level 10, so the character has 62,000 gp worth of gear, and the other party members only have say 30,000 gp of gear due to a treasure poor area/streak? Especially if this will continue for a level or two then the new PC will be substantially stronger than the others.
2.) What do you do in the reversed situation where a new PC comes on-board with the standard level 10 62,000 gp of gear and every one else has let us say 120,000 GP worth of gear?
Just curious as it seems to me that only using the WBL table for characters that are created past Lvl 1 can be problematic if you do not apply it to other in game characters, and I am curious how you resolve it.
In both cases I would not do anything. In the game I'm currently running the players have vastly different levels of wealth, and I haven't heard anyone complain.
Also when I am a player myself it is common that some people's cahracters can have twice or three times WBL while others in the same game might have slightly under. And we really don't mind that either.
I would only use it for someone making a new character at higher than level 1. Other than that, no.This statement is interesting to me.
I am honestly curious, about some things, not trying to attack or nitpick so please explain if you have time the answers in your game to the following questions.
1.)What do you do if a player brings in a new character according to the WBL table, let us say at level 10, so the character has 62,000 gp worth of gear, and the other party members only have say 30,000 gp of gear due to a treasure poor area/streak? Especially if this will continue for a level or two then the new PC will be substantially stronger than the others.
2.) What do you do in the reversed situation where a new PC comes on-board with the standard level 10 62,000 gp of gear and every one else has let us say 120,000 GP worth of gear?
Just curious as it seems to me that only using the WBL table for characters that are created past Lvl 1 can be problematic if you do not apply it to other in game characters, and I am curious how you resolve it.
In both cases I would not do anything. In the game I'm currently running the players have vastly different levels of wealth, and I haven't heard anyone complain.
Also when I am a player myself it is common that some people's cahracters can have twice or three times WBL while others in the same game might have slightly under. And we really don't mind that either.
Hummm... *Shrug* Different stokes for different folks I guess.
I am glad you are having fun but that would not be my cup of tea.
Happy gaming.
I do. Other dms also use it but at anything between 50% down to 20% of WBL.
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All games should start with the players in peasant garb, with a rusty pitchfork, 20 sling bullets but no sling, club and dagger regardless of level.
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I give a glance every now and then.
Otherwise, I tend to forget it even existed.
Only if a character dies, The new one that gets rolled up uses the WBL table to buy their starting equipment.
But as for using it to monitor the treasure I hand out as DM, no.
I would only use it for someone making a new character at higher than level 1. Other than that, no.This statement is interesting to me.
I am honestly curious, about some things, not trying to attack or nitpick so please explain if you have time the answers in your game to the following questions.
1.)What do you do if a player brings in a new character according to the WBL table, let us say at level 10, so the character has 62,000 gp worth of gear, and the other party members only have say 30,000 gp of gear due to a treasure poor area/streak? Especially if this will continue for a level or two then the new PC will be substantially stronger than the others.
When my rogue died in our Council of Thieves campaign, the GM added up the value of the rogue's items. When that turned out to be pretty close to WBL, he allowed me to make my new character with WBL.
In another campaign I'm in, it also seems the GM only uses WBL for new characters. I never checked, and my Druid never died, but new characters tend to arrive with a fine array of magical items. Possibly more focused than those of the existing characters, so that might be an issue. But the original characters are all spellcasters (and this is 3.5), so they have nothing to complain about.
For the Kingmaker campaign I'm in, I have no idea. Nobody died yet, but the GM seems a bit more hardcore, and it wouldn't surprise me if he'd have new characters start at level 1.
Personally I see WBL as a very rough guideline for scenario design, but I'd probably ignore it completely in my campaigns. New characters might get some interesting story-driven item that ties them to the campaign, as well as some other equipment that makes sense, but nothing quite as generous and focused as what I saw in the first two campaigns I mentioned.
Also because PCs who acquired their gear in-game tend to have less focused crap than newly designed characters, and I don't want to reward death. But to me, any view is valid. The only thing I warn against is correcting WBL on existing characters, because you end up punishing clever play and rewarding wastefulness. Then again, if that's what you want, that's the way to go.
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If I ever hand out treasure that's above or under WBL, I self-mutilate myself during the night.
Pictures, or it didn't happen!
I haven't used it in the past, but I am going to use it in an upcoming game with a twist.
I am going to use the WBL chart as a form of magical encumbrance. A character cannot have more than the WBL number equipped at any one time. Each morning after resting for 8 hours you can change your magic item load out, choosing how to allocate the WBL. You can leave some WBL open as you can add magic items to your equipment, but once something has been allocated you have to sleep before you can reallocate it. Artifacts and cursed items (once equipped and revealed) do not count against WBL, and multiple consumables only count once (5 potions of CLW only takes 1 slot). You can equip an item that is over your WBL, but it takes up the entire amount (highest cost items are applied first) or you can equip an item at a cheaper amount if applicable (equip a sword +5 as a sword +1).
My hope with this rule is to shift the burden of manipulating treasure onto the PCs. This will allow me to not worry about gold pieces so much. If the characters do something creative to earn more gold they can be rewarded without unbalancing the game. Hopefully this will also encourage characters to spend gold on things other than magic items as there won't be a power loss from not buying better items. There will still be some utility from having additional items that are over your WBL magical encumbrance, but it will be less and less the more over you are.
The thing I never liked about WBL was that I had to metagame manage the characters wealth and it always felt like a zero sum game. If the characters did something creative and got extra gold I had to take it from them in a future game.
I try to follow it. If my players are having a hard time I up the loot with items tailored for those performing the worst. If things get too easy items start getting targeted with sunders and disintegrates etc.
Let´s face it, after a certain level PC´s need WBL to have the gear they need, at least partly. When magic weapons and stuff are still rare or amiss around level 7 or 8 it´s getting difficult.
Having a new character with full WBL on higher levels with full access to magic items is also cheesy a bit. Especially if the others had to find or buy them with restricted access. That´s difficult to handle.
I don´t like those restrictions in the game anyway and think the need of magic wepaons or armor with flat boni is a flaw somehow. That way if something gets lost or destroyed it´s always a tragedy and hampers the PC more than necessary. Other aspects like special materials, wondrous items or special damage types i really like though, because they add a lot of flavor.
WBL is always about gear and with gear it also plays a great role how you handle acquisition. Having them find stuff or get rewarded is thematically cooler, having it random even more, but mechanically it can be a problem.
Thanks for all the replies. It seems that there is a fairly even split between those who ignore it and those who use it as a rough guide.
It does seem that a majority do use it when creating characters higher than level 1.
Our group typically uses it for creating new characters above level 1, and as a GM I'll do a sanity check every few levels and if things are wacky, I'll adjust to deal with it, but otherwise I don't pay much attention to it.
I definitely make use of WBL. Mostly I use it as a Baseline to compare individual PC's wealth with, but I also try to keep their wealth relatively evenly distributed between PC's as well.
I use it when designing adventures as a measure of the total suggested treasure per PC per level of advancement. Not treasure that will be attained, just the max GP value so as to know it and not exceed it.
I use it when new PC's are brought into the group, although I start new characters with Gold equivalent to what the PC's actually have instead of what the WBL table suggests. Sometimes its a bit more, sometimes a bit less. Works out in the end.
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Our little game group, actually our awesome little gaming group, has several campaigns running at the same time. We definitely use WBL when a character dies and we need to bring in a new PC. However, we're pretty strict about keeping with the Pathfinder's gamemastering guidelines on not more than 25% on weapons, not more than 25% on armor, etc. As a DM i usually ask to see the gear list that the new character is bringing into the party.
There are exceptions. If there is a DM-created unique item, those tend to be very expensive and skew character wealth substantially.
!! Fun exercise... in my high-level campaign where all the PCs are level 17, they just lost all their gear. Seriously, they are all naked with only one item. I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses. I'm planning to start any new encounters low to watch how a lack of gear effects play. I know that eventually I'll get them back to a normal WBL.
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WBL fairies make sure that all characters are exactly at WBL at all times. Any treasure an enemy might be carrying is destroyed in the battle, and leveling up is accompanied by large chunks of gold falling out of the sky and bouncing off the newly leveled character's head.
...and leveling up is accompanied by large chunks of gold falling out of the sky and bouncing off the newly leveled character's head.
Ouch. This must be quite the painful experience.