Okay, in the game I'm currently GM of, there is a scene coming up. The boss of the stage after this one, the Dark Knight, is actually the protagonist's brother.
Now there are a lot of clues that the brother, Lucius, simply will not change and can't be turned away from evil. That's not stopping the player from considering trying to make a plea.
Now my thought is, after the boss battle, if Venda (the protagonist) tries to get in close and have a tender moment with Lucius despite all warnings, Lucius is going to impale him on his sword. Now realistically this would likely be a killshot or nearly so. I'm not so sure how the game rules it, though. Mind you, there are plenty of clues that tell this player not to get close or try to turn Lucius away from evil and that he will use any opportunity to kill him.
So how do I handle this if it happens? Automatic coup de grace sounds most realistic, but it's not by the rules at all and might be unfair. Still, there are all those clues, and ignoring them should come at a cost I would think. So would it be coup de grace even if Venda isn't helpless? Would it be an automatic critical hit (which might still be deadly depending on post-fight conditions)? Just an automatic hit? Is a hit roll even needed in this kind of situation? I'm just not sure how to roll with it. Advice?
This sounds like an Assassin's Death Attack, actually. Impaling Critical would be a bonus, though. You may also want to think about this feat, but it gets wonky when it comes to using it on PCs.
If the DM wants the NPC to be able to impale someone by surprise, said NPC needs sneak attack or death attack, and a way to get it via class levels (or maybe there's some item that lets you do this). Otherwise it's just a regular attack.
Because they're brothers, I think a Diplomacy check (with a high DC, why doesn't Pathfinder have a DC by level chart? Or maybe it does!) might prevent the sneak attack. No amount of Diplomacy should make the villain "turn good", not when they're devoted to evil.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Since they are brothers, I'd normally allow a death attack, but the player might rightfully get upset.
Sticking closely within rules... it's a surprise attack vs flatfooted AC. No need to roll perception if the hero cooperates in setting himself up by offering a hug. Presumably he'll be using poison as well.
The vital-strike feat chain could make a single attack more dangerous. Also the impaling critical feats.
Alternately, maybe have the villain prepared with a hold person spell from an object (maybe an evil, intelligent weapon that can cast it itself). Then follow-through with the coup-de-grace.
Unfortunately, sneak attack and other feats aren't doable at this point because the enemy is already statted out (and has been fought before, with Venda's group getting spanked hard). He's also not the poison kind.
One thing is that the scene this might happen in would be after the fight, during Lucius's "bad guy about to die final words" sort of thing. Also, like I said, there are loads of hints that this guy can't be redeeemed, so Venda trying to turn him and be brotherly would essentially be ignoring all the risks and walking into a trap.
I'm just mainly looking for a good balance of game rules (which say it would just be a surprise attack against flat-footed AC) and realism (which would be a likely coup de grace). Maybe it'll help if I give more details (duh).
First off, Lucius has the following class, custom from the Pathfinder Database: Dark Knight
Now here is his stat block as it will appear in the battle.
The Dark Knight:
The Dark Knight
CR 20; XP: 307,200
human dark knight 20
LE Medium humanoid
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 52, touch 36, flat-footed 51 (+16 armor, +5 deflection, +1 Dex)
HP 555 (20d12+380)
Fort +29, Ref +15, Will +28
Defensive Abilities unnatural fortitude, life syphon, overpowering will; DR 10/-; SR 33; Resist critical hits 75%
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee dark shard +59 (8d6+42/16-20/x4 plus 5d6 life steal)
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks precision, life syphon aura (6d4), improved life syphon aura (12d4), drain undead (DC 28), death vortex aura (8, range 30 ft.), purge aura (100 ft.), endless terror aura (range 15 ft., DC 28), dark echo aura (x3), crushing chains aura (DC 28), plane splitter aura (20d6, range 30 ft.), vorpal aura
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th) At will-Dissolve Shard, Dissolve Guard, False Charisma, Cape of Shadows 6/day-Dark Glamour (DC 28), Peering Shadows, Shadow Fold 5/day-Summon Shadow 4/day-Death Throes 3/day-Death Seeker 2/day-Purge, Shadow Door, Blood Confirmation, Deep Siphon, Borrowed Life, Intensity, Twin Blades
STATISTICS
Str 32, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 13, Wis 27, Cha 13
Base Atk +20; CMB +31; CMD 51
Feats Combat Expertise, Dazzling Display, Focused Dark Auras, Great Fortitude, Improved Armament (x2), Improved Initiative, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus (intimidate), Weapon Focus (dark shard)
Skills Intimidate +42, Knowledge (religion) +21, Knowledge (planes) +21, Survival +23
Languages Common, Infernal
SQ power of will +16, dark aura, summon dark armament, shadow walk aura (350 ft., sneak attack 12d6), twin blades aura, wantless desperation
Gear Dark Shard [+10, Magic, Ghost Touch, Axiomatic, Adamantine, 8d6/16-20/x4, Life Steal 5d6], Dark Guard [AC +16, DR 10/-, Heavy Fortification], Amulet of Life, ring of protection +5 (50,000), ring of delayed doom (45,000), cloak of resistance +5 (25,000), belt of dark perfection +6 [str/con/wis] (144,000), boots of teleportation (49,000), clear spindle ioun stone (4000), iridescent spindle ioun stone (18,000), pale green prism ioun stone (30,000), dusty rose prism ioun stone +4 (80,000), manual of gainful exercise +5 [used] (137,500), manual of bodily health +5 [used] (137,500), tome of understanding +5 (137,500), 22,500 gp
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Life Syphon Aura (Su) Life Syphon Aura is always active as long as the Dark Knight is wielding his Dark Shard. When rolling for any damage against living targets roll additional die according the Dark Knight's level. A Dark Knight gains up to that amount of hp, though he may not gain more HP in this way than the amount of damage dealt. Life steal from this aura does not multiply on a critical hit.
Improved Life Syphon Aura (Su) While this Aura is active roll twice as many life syphon die, but otherwise functions as the same. Cost 4 hp/round.
Shadow Walk Aura (Su) While this Aura is active a Dark Knight may move an additional five feet per round per level and ignore difficult terrain. At 8th level this Aura grants the ability to walk up walls as if they were horizontal surfaces. At 12th level this Aura grants the ability to slow fall, allowing you to fall as little as 10 ft per round. At 16th level this Aura allows a Dark Knight to move without provoking attacks of opportunity. At 20th level this Aura provides complete concealment when standing still and minor concealment while moving. Cost 16 hp/round.
Death Vortex Aura (Su) This aura creates a negative energy vortex around the Dark Knight that syphons life energy from all living entities within its radius, including party members. If capable of attacking the Dark Knight, any living entity will. Creatures may make a will save against DC 15 to perform any other action. At 16th level any living entity within the aura, excluding the Dark Knight, may not move more than 10 feet per round, but the Aura costs 15 hp per round. At 20th Level the slowing effect reduces any movement to no more than 5 feet per round, but the Aura costs 20 hp per round. Cost 16 hp/round.
Purge Aura (Su) If you use Purge the affected area is hit as if with a Greater Dispel Magic spell with a DC of 10 + 1/2 Dark Knight level + Wis mod. Cost 16 hp/round.
Endless Terror Aura (Su) This Aura amplifies the already unsettling presence of a Dark Knight. All entities that are successfully demoralized with the Intimidate skill must roll a Will save against DC 10 + 1/2 Dark Knight level + Wis Modifier or be rooted in terror and flat footed, save reduces Dex bonus and movement speed by half. At 12th level this Aura amplifies the Dark Knights presence so much that any creatures that fail the Will save are rendered unconscious by terror. At 18th Level any creatures that fail the Will save must make a Fort save against DC 10 + 1/2 Dark Knight level + Wis Modifier or die from terror. Cost 8 hp/round.
Dark Echo Aura (Su) This Aura splinters the boundary between the Negative Energy Plane and a Dark Knight's weapon. Any successful hit hits twice, though the second hit does deal full damage including damage from life steal die, the Dark Knight does not receive life steal/life syphon from it. At 20th level any hit hits three times and the cost to run the Aura increases to 25 HP. Cost 20 hp/round.
Twin Blades Aura (Su) If you use your Twin Blades ability while this aura is active the effect remains as long as this aura is active, you may run an additional aura as long as this aura is active albeit with an additional cost of 8 hp. Cost 12 hp/round.
Crushing Chains Aura (Su) Any successful hit by a Dark Shard causes the target to be wrapped by chains of crushing darkness. These chains render the target helpless unless it rolls a will save against DC 10 + 1/2 Dark Knight level + Wis Modifier, the target may attempt a will save to overcome the binding effects of the chains at the beginning of its turn. Crushing Chains deal damage as the Dark Knight's Dark Shard, including life steal effects, every round after they are applied before the target attempts its will save. Crushing Chains may be applied to the same target multiple times. Crushing Chains remain attached to the target as long as the Aura is active. Every set of Crushing Chains currently active increases the cost of this Aura by 16 HP. Cost 4 hp/round.
Plane Splitter Aura (Su) All living beings within the Aura's radius, except for the Dark Knight, take 1d6 of Negative Energy Damage per Dark Knight level per round. Cost 80 hp/round.
Vorpal Aura (Su) This Aura creates thousands of Negative Energy vortices to whirl around the edge of a Dark Shard granting any living creature that is the victim of a confirmed critical hit instant release into the afterlife. Cost 80 hp/round.
Dissolve Shard (Sp) By dissolving his Dark Shard into his Aura a Dark Knight may increase the effectiveness and range of his Auras 50%. Doing so results in the Dark Knight becoming unequipped with his Shard and therefore unable to attack with it until he reconstitutes it from his Aura. Reconstituting counts as a swift action.
Dissolve Guard (Sp) By dissolving his Dark Shard a Dark Knight may increase the effectiveness and range of his Auras 50%. Doing so results in the Dark Knight losing all defensive benefits of his Guard until he reconstitutes it from his Aura. Reconstituting counts as a swift action.
False Charisma (Sp) By dissolving both your shard and armor into your Aura a Dark Knight is able to forcibly alter it's disturbing quality and masquerade as a normal individual. Doing so adds 4 to any charisma rolls you take except intimidate.
Cape of Shadows (Sp) For 10 HP you may summon an writhing cape of shadows, it is a cape and may be used as any other cape.
Dark Glamour (Sp) At 2nd level you gain Dark Glamour which can be used once a day. You may attempt to glamour a target with a will DC of 10 + 1/2 Dark Knight level + Wis mod, if the targets fails the save it is affected as if by a Geas spell except the duration is limited to 1 round/level, save negates effect. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter you gain an additional use per day of Dark Glamour.
Peering Shadows (Sp) At 3rd level you gain the ability to peer into one shadow and see from another once a day. You may focus your attention to any other shadow within (Dark Knight level + wis mod) x 10 ft of you. You may ignore the distance restriction if you use a summoned shadow. Effects similar to a scrying spell, last up to 10 minutes/level. At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter you gain an additional use per day of Peering Shadows.
Shadow Fold (Sp) Once a day at 3rd level and an additional time every 3 levels thereafter after you may teleport, as in Dimension Door, from one shadow to another visible shadow within (Dark Knight level + wis mod) x 10 feet of you. Folding to a shadow created by Summon Shadow ignores the distance limitation.
Summon Shadow (Sp) At 4th level you gain the ability to summon a supernatural shadow once a day to any location that you can see or have seen within 1 + Int mod days. These shadows persist for (Dark Knight level + wis mod) hours but fade when a Dark Knight sleeps or dismisses them. Every four levels thereafter you gain an additional use per day. A Dark Knight may imprint an area at 1st , 4th and every 4 levels afterward, you may always summon a shadow to an imprinted place. However, you must spend at least a week in the vicinity of the specific place before you can imprint it, you may erase a previous imprint to imprint another. Summoned shadows are no larger than 100 square feet and do not necessarily have to be on flat or logical places.
Death Throes (Sp) At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter you gain a use of Death Throes that may be used once per day. If you are at 0 or negative HP you may roll a will save against a DC 20, if you make the save you regain consciousness at 10% of your max health and may act immediately.
Death Seeker (Sp) Death Seeker may be used once a day at 6th and an additional time per day every 6 levels thereafter. Death Seeker restores 50% of you max hit points after killing any enemy.
Purge (Sp) At 7th level you gain Purge, 1/day you may remove all non permanent debuffs and buffs currently effecting the Dark Knight. At 14th level you may use this ability twice per day.
Shadow Door (Sp) At 8th level you may open a door between two Summoned Shadows once per day, that anyone or anything can pass through, the door lasts for 5 min/lv. The door's maximum size if 100 square feet or the size of the summoned shadows. At 16th level you may use this ability twice per day.
Blood Confirmation (Sp) At 8th level gain the use of Blood Confirmation once per day. After rolling a critical hit you may sacrifice 10% of your total health to automatically confirm the critical. This sacrifice must happen before you roll to confirm. Doing so you may choose to maximize all of your normal weapon damage, not including life steal die. At 16th level you gain an additional use of the ability per day.
Deep Siphon (Sp) At 9th level you gain Deep Siphon. Using this ability after a successful hit maximizes your life steal die/life syphon die this turn At 18th level you may use this ability twice per day.
Borrowed Life (Sp) At 10th level you gain Borrowed Life, any Aura or HP costs you incur this turn are negated but must be payed + 10% the turn afterwards. At 20th level you may use this ability twice per day.
Intensity (Sp) At 11th level you gain Intensity which doubles the HP costs of your Auras but also doubles their power (or applies their effect twice) and range. At 17th level you may use this ability twice per day.
Twin Blades (Sp) At 13th level you may create an exact copy of your Dark shard and may make a second attack at your full base attack bonus this round. This ability overrides the Precision Extraordinary ability. At 19th level you may use this ability twice per day.
The party will consist of Venda (two-weapon warrior 19 or 20), Selan (cleric 19 or 20), Mayless (paladin 19 or 20), and Lufia (witch 19 or 20). The level depends on if they do all encounters along the way or not. The battle has to be fought twice because Lucius's amulet of life immediately returns him to full health after being defeated the first time. It's basically the third from last boss of the campaign and possibly the hardest. FYI, Vital Strike feats can't be used with his particular weapon (for obvious balancing reasons).
The possible scene (it's not definitely going to happen, I just want to be prepared for if it does) would take place after the second battle. His auras won't be usable at that time, though, since he won't have any HP left to spend on them.
The reason Venda wants to try and redeem him is because Lucius is one of the few family members he has left. Lucius and Bargle murdered their mother, Venda's father, most of their friends, and sacked the town Venda's mother was in charge of (destroyed it completely and turned everyone into undead). This is the culmination of months of gaming, with Bargle having been defeated the stage before (the stage we're playing now actually), and Venda wants to save Lucius. It's a bit complex hehehe.
With this added information, are the suggestions the same, or...?
sadly, Coup de Graces are nearly impossible to set up. As the PC is not helpless or unconcious or anything else... he will still get the option of 'turning with the blow'.
The Player may be HOPING that his brother turns from evil... but REALISTICALLY, it's tough to say 'he never saw the blow coming'... especially if he's been BBEG all along.
The game kind of shy's away from the 'Oh your dead now' attacks like what your seeing in your head. and for good reason. For a PC that scenario could REALLY suck...
What I would suggest, would be Suprise round... vs. Flat footed... MAYBE. I think RAW the battles still going on, so I'm not sure he'd still be flat footed...
Regardless i'd go with that, and give BBEG initative... Maybe Flavor text the HECK out of it...
Though I WILL say.. there were plenty of clues that Darth Vadar couldn't be redeemed either. He blew up a freaking planet just to show he COULD...
If the PC is REALLY trying to save a family memeber... I'd be hesistant to set in stone 'It can't be done... and Here's a coup de grace on the way out...'
He blew up a freaking planet just to show he COULD...
...That wasn't Darth Vader. That'd be Moff Tarkin. Vader had nothing to do with that little shenanigan, although he did plenty else.
I agree that having things totally set in stone is rough on the PC, but why not? If heroes can be wholeheartedly devoted to good, and be paragons of justice, then they need paragons of evil who would never be "corrupted" by the goodie-goodies.
And yeah, I'd say it'd be a surprise attack, maybe an auto-crit, but without the extra damage, and just with something like Impaling Critical's effects. You can get creative with it after all, GM Fiat is not just a tool for evil.
Con Bleed sounds like it could be rather fitting for a stab wound. Not instantly fatal, but quite possibly so if something isn't done fast.
You might also want something like a Bluff vs Sense Motive to give the PC a chance to not get skewered (though I see your boss doesn't have much in the way of Bluff).
The best you might be able to hand wave is maybe an automatic critical hit.
Perhaps, do it as a surprise attack vs flat footed PC, and if the pc fails a check (sense motive/perception/whathaveyou), then make it an automatic critical. Beyond that, you're asking for trouble.
That's all I was trying to say. As a GM, it's not PFS, your job is to facilitate a good story. Rules are guidelines. You get to decide when to break them. Player's won't cry foul if you don't permanently kill them/destroy their stuff. Just make it a compelling scene for everybody, and a stab that does only 1/4 max hp damage isn't as exciting as it you GM it to be
"as you approach, your brother gets a sad look in his eyes, full of doubt and regret. You hastily take him in your arms to pour the potion of CMW down his throat and stabilize him. All of a sudden, the look in your brother's eyes changes to sadistic satisfaction, as you are now within his reach. The stiletto you failed to notice in his left hand is now, surprisingly, piercing your chest, and you fall back, stunned, and dying."
go ahead and rolls some dice behind a GM screen, but it doesn't matter what the results are, something like this is what should happen to the character who refuses to accept that his brother is beyond redemption. Following this, the character should become bitter and angry and perhaps even self destructive. Have fun with the storyline!
Okay, in the game I'm currently GM of, there is a scene coming up. The boss of the stage after this one, the Dark Knight, is actually the protagonist's brother.
Now there are a lot of clues that the brother, Lucius, simply will not change and can't be turned away from evil. That's not stopping the player from considering trying to make a plea.
Now my thought is, after the boss battle, if Venda (the protagonist) tries to get in close and have a tender moment with Lucius despite all warnings, Lucius is going to impale him on his sword. Now realistically this would likely be a killshot or nearly so. I'm not so sure how the game rules it, though. Mind you, there are plenty of clues that tell this player not to get close or try to turn Lucius away from evil and that he will use any opportunity to kill him.
So how do I handle this if it happens? Automatic coup de grace sounds most realistic, but it's not by the rules at all and might be unfair. Still, there are all those clues, and ignoring them should come at a cost I would think. So would it be coup de grace even if Venda isn't helpless? Would it be an automatic critical hit (which might still be deadly depending on post-fight conditions)? Just an automatic hit? Is a hit roll even needed in this kind of situation? I'm just not sure how to roll with it. Advice?
It isn't a coup de grace, and ramming the sword up is going to be obvious. Being stabbed up close also isn't insta-death, not in this system. You would probably also be surprised how long humans take to die from certain types of impalement.
I'd do it like this, sense motive opposed by bluff, then surprise attack. If you wanted to fudge it as a dm, make it a crit.
Maybe have him stumble across his other brother who happened to have been forgotten about up till now. As Baddy falls the first time, goody starts to approach to redeem his brother, Bob the brother NPC rushes over first. Goody get's a perception check (DC 35) to notice baddy has shifted his body slightly and is concealing his right hand, Sense Motive check v. baddy bluff or slight of hand. If Goody makes the check, he see's baddy clutching the blade and starting to move it to Bob the brother NPC, Goody get's to act in the surprise round before baddy (at this point, he can try to move brother NPC out of the way, risking taking the blow himself, or he could try to hit baddy and ruin his attack). If Goody fails, you describe how baddy skewered brother NPC, make it very dramatic but quick. So he rolls and fails the sense motive check, as soon as you hear it's not enough... "Shwing, you see baddy stab his blade through brother NPC, who arches on the blade, a soft gasp escape his lips as the life slips from his body, Baddy tilts him off his sword and as he crumples to the floor, baddy unleashes a reign of blows on the corpse, eviscerating him in a cloud of red mist. Baddy smiles up at Goody over the body and utters an ominous threat. Round 2, FIGHT!
For added fun and shenanigans, the bloody pool in front of baddy is difficult terrain, muhahahahahaha!
That's all I was trying to say. As a GM, it's not PFS, your job is to facilitate a good story. Rules are guidelines. You get to decide when to break them. Player's won't cry foul if you don't permanently kill them/destroy their stuff. Just make it a compelling scene for everybody, and a stab that does only 1/4 max hp damage isn't as exciting as it you GM it to be
"as you approach, your brother gets a sad look in his eyes, full of doubt and regret. You hastily take him in your arms to pour the potion of CMW down his throat and stabilize him. All of a sudden, the look in your brother's eyes changes to sadistic satisfaction, as you are now within his reach. The stiletto you failed to notice in his left hand is now, surprisingly, piercing your chest, and you fall back, stunned, and dying."
go ahead and rolls some dice behind a GM screen, but it doesn't matter what the results are, something like this is what should happen to the character who refuses to accept that his brother is beyond redemption. Following this, the character should become bitter and angry and perhaps even self destructive. Have fun with the storyline!
That is certainly a good idea I hadn't thought of for whatever reason! That's definitely a great way to have it go down!
Proley wrote:
Maybe have him stumble across his other brother who happened to have been forgotten about up till now. As Baddy falls the first time, goody starts to approach to redeem his brother, Bob the brother NPC rushes over first. Goody get's a perception check (DC 35) to notice baddy has shifted his body slightly and is concealing his right hand, Sense Motive check v. baddy bluff or slight of hand. If Goody makes the check, he see's baddy clutching the blade and starting to move it to Bob the brother NPC, Goody get's to act in the surprise round before baddy (at this point, he can try to move brother NPC out of the way, risking taking the blow himself, or he could try to hit baddy and ruin his attack). If Goody fails, you describe how baddy skewered brother NPC, make it very dramatic but quick. So he rolls and fails the sense motive check, as soon as you hear it's not enough... "Shwing, you see baddy stab his blade through brother NPC, who arches on the blade, a soft gasp escape his lips as the life slips from his body, Baddy tilts him off his sword and as he crumples to the floor, baddy unleashes a reign of blows on the corpse, eviscerating him in a cloud of red mist. Baddy smiles up at Goody over the body and utters an ominous threat. Round 2, FIGHT!
For added fun and shenanigans, the bloody pool in front of baddy is difficult terrain, muhahahahahaha!
This is a great idea as well, since there are two other siblings that just weren't supposed to be there. Nothing saying one or both of them can't show up.
Thanks for the ideas, all! This has been a great discussion!
That's all I was trying to say. As a GM, it's not PFS, your job is to facilitate a good story. Rules are guidelines. You get to decide when to break them. Player's won't cry foul if you don't permanently kill them/destroy their stuff. Just make it a compelling scene for everybody, and a stab that does only 1/4 max hp damage isn't as exciting as it you GM it to be
"as you approach, your brother gets a sad look in his eyes, full of doubt and regret. You hastily take him in your arms to pour the potion of CMW down his throat and stabilize him. All of a sudden, the look in your brother's eyes changes to sadistic satisfaction, as you are now within his reach. The stiletto you failed to notice in his left hand is now, surprisingly, piercing your chest, and you fall back, stunned, and dying."
go ahead and rolls some dice behind a GM screen, but it doesn't matter what the results are, something like this is what should happen to the character who refuses to accept that his brother is beyond redemption. Following this, the character should become bitter and angry and perhaps even self destructive. Have fun with the storyline!
