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So does Fishpork the marsh giant get a gaff as well as the rocks? The AP specifically mentions that rocks have been provided, but only the Bestiary statblock mentions the gaff as his likely weapon of choice.

About to jump in as GM for book 3, and wondering if I need to force the players to do some more sandboxing to get WBL up.

There's more loot to distribute, but at the end of book 2, my character was at about 5k gold wealth, and another character was at under 6k gold, but yeah, we had some expensive items to sell off still, farglass the biggie (what was the Captain's Locker mentioned above? don't recall seeing that...) Going by our loot tracking so far, it looks like total value of everything before selling for half is about 14k gold each, so actually not bad... but still about 10k under WBL for 7th level at the start of book 3. And then, a huge chunk of that is the spyglass, which not many players would consider a valuable use of 30k gold...

Don't get me wrong, we've been having a blast being 15 point builds working with 1/3 of WBL... I'm just wondering if anybody who's played book 3 thinks we need to get WBL up for survivability, or for fun. Some of the book 2 combats were brutal, to be honest, and though we came through, we didn't exactly look like heroes, more like survivors... Very close to TPK a couple times. Don't want to wipe the party because they're down on loot...

And, I notice it says the party should have 10 plunder in the hold minimum... pretty sure we've sold most of it and now only have whatever we got from the last part of book 2, which is what, maybe 4? And they need 4 for the bribe in the beginning of book 3, so...

Any opinions on whether I should force the players to do some more sandboxing before getting started?

Some are clear and called out, like Calm Emotions.

What about Command or Charm Person (note in the text of Charm Person it specifically says "does not enable you to control...) I guess my question is what does "results in peaceful acts" mean? Simply not violent? Then Command should work. Charm Person says you can't ask them to do something obviously harmful, so I'm not sure... What about Bane?

I guess I'm thinking the list of Charm or Compulsion spells that wouldn't be affected is rather short, including anything that could possibly result in violent acts, like MC and Dominate Person.

Anybody know where this has been spelled out, if there's a clear list by RAW of what the Mediator trait works with? Or at least, any ideas what it shouldn't work with?


Bringing out the dead, but was just prepping this and had a question about the chains ability. As a (Su) that works as animate rope, I'm thinking, touch attack as normal, so +3 at tier 1-2 and +5 at tier 4-5, then Ref save using 1/2 HD/level plus Con bonus, not sure if that's right, though, but Con bonus seems appropriate as he gets the +4 Con... so DC 14 Ref for tier 1-2 and DC 16 for tier 4-5. Then again, pendulums get +6 touch attack at tier 4-5... and then DC 20 escape artist... or? hardness 10 and 10hp or DC 28 burst? something like that?

Shield Snag... and re-reading the feat, same wording as Shield Slam. But I was hoping if I had a snarling shield the extra +2 bonus to disarm at least would apply (certainly not Improved Disarm...)

Yeah, just can't resist, started out as a Sword-and-Board, but recently decided to swap the longsword for a heavy steel shield for +1 AC and to take advantage of the weapon group and shield slam, and soon the Gloves of Dueling. Just added Shield Snag as my 7th level feat. Free Bull Rush is great the way it works with Shield Slam, but disarm can be great, too!

So I've got a fighter with the feat that lets you get a free disarm attempt when you bash with a shield, and I was wondering if a snarling shield works with this to give a +2 bonus to the attack roll that's used as your CMB roll when you hit... I'd think so, but actually when I add snarling to my shield in Herolab, I no longer even see it on the Weapons tab, so I was wondering what was up with that...

And on that subject, one more question.. I understand that with the feat that gives you a free Bull Rush when you hit with a shield bash, having IBR doesn't add anything... but would Improved Disarm add to the free Disarm attempt? Just thought I'd ask.

Yeah, I know, wish I could have let it RIP, but evidently not, as the thought of a PFS GM disallowing something like this irks me so much... that I just had to raise the dead.

But no need to comment just to say wow dead thread...

Guess I'll just point the guy to the relevant section of the Help/FAQ, where there clearly is no FAQ saying you can't use these together...

Believe it or not, playing at a con this weekend, ran into a player who refused to use Manyshot and Rapid Shot together, and when I asked him why not, he said it was illegal as they both "modify" a full attack action... I told him he was crazy, but he said that as a GM he doesn't let his players use it, and he's a PFS GM... and he said he thought he saw something in a FAQ.

Please, since there's still a bit of confusion around, can we take a moment to add it to the FAQ that yes indeed, they both work just fine together?

thanks for catching that!

Running this tonight...

4 player high tier adjustment, since APL will be right in the middle. Encounter B2, it says "remove the Blackwinged Pegasus." Remove one Blackwinged Pegasus makes more sense. Though, using the singular when there are 3 in the encounter is very confusing... Am I right? Or should I remove all 3?

Here's my 8th level Archer support cleric, PFS. Been very happy with him, though I understand some of my choices might not work for you. Sacred Summons for example. Also, gained a feat and +2 dex from scenarios played, and effectively +2 con from another scenario.

Disease variant channeling has been very helpful. Erastil gives longbow, and I do serious support damage when appropriate. High level cleric immediate action liberating command is great. And this new aura of menace. A pair of dispel magics memorized is really all the arcane any group needs. If you like this notion/if it goes with the group, play it. You can never have too many divines in a party.

I generally shield other a squishy frontliner, and plan on mass resist energy at some point. And I do like my standard action hound archons.

Oh, and several 1st level pearls of power so you only have to memorize each of your 1st level utility spells once. And Bracers of Falcon's Aim when they're legal again...

Tergan Deepfallow
Male Human (Varisian) Cleric 8
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +16
Aura aura of menace
AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 59 (8d8+16)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +11
Speed 30 ft.
Melee quarterstaff +9/+4 (1d6+3/×2)
Ranged +2 darkwood composite longbow +10/+10/+5 (1d8+8/×3)
Special Attacks channel energy, holy lance
Spell-Like Abilities
. . 6/day—touch of good, touch of law
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +11):
4th (2/day)—holy smite (DC 17), freedom of movement, summon monster iv
3rd (4/day)—dispel magic (x2), magic circle against evil, prayer, communal resist energy
2nd (4/day)—align weapon, shield other, silence (DC 15), grace, pilfering hand
1st (5/day)—remove sickness (DC 14), liberating command, shield of faith, divine favor, bless, remove fear
0 (at will)—detect magic, mending, guidance, light
Str 14, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Deadly Aim, Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Sacred Summons
Traits observant, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +6, Diplomacy +12, Heal +11 (+14 to treat poison, +14 to treat common animals, but +1 to treat other creatures), Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Linguistics +5, Perception +16, Sense Motive +8, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +7, Swim +5
Languages Common, Osiriani, Ancient, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ aura, domains (archon [law], good), spontaneous casting, variant channeling (disease variant channeling [±2 sacred])

Special Abilities

Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Aura of Menace (8 rounds/day) (Su) 30'r aura inflicts -2 AC and -2 to all saves.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 4d6 (3/day) (DC 14) (Su)
[b]Deadly Aim -2/+4
Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Disease Variant Channeling (±2 Sacred) Heal ability damage/Sicken
Holy Lance for 4 rounds (1/day) (Su) A melee weapon you are holding becomes holy
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Pendant of the blood scarab (1/day) Automatically confirm a critical threat, but take 1d6 damage.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Sacred Summons Summon monsters whose alignment subtype matches yours as a standard action
Touch of Good (6/day) (Sp) Grant +4 to skill checks, ability checks and saving throws for 1r.
Touch of Law (6/day) (Sp) A d20 roll becomes 11.

Okay, that's the best use of fate's favored! Might have to GM credit that to 3rd and start playing it!

Well, at 3rd level my barbarian has +7 UMD, so he's got a 40% chance of success, and can use the wand on average 8 times per day before it jams. And he starts tapping himself with it at the first sign of danger, or has the party wait before going though the door we know trouble is lurking behind until I get my wand to work. Or I just let the party divine tap me with it. In the scenarios I've played, it's been active in about 80% of the encounters before fighting starts.

Yeah, it costs me 1/25 of a prestige point each time I use it, while the bard has a renewable resource, but I can handle that. I use it about 4 times a scenario, so that's only about 8% of the prestige I earn per scenario (generously assuming an average of 2.)

I'm not saying the barbarian with UMD is better than the archaeologist, but I'd probably also say the barbarian is no worse of a use of fate's favored than the bard. And I'd say the Inquisitor is the best use. But as I said, I really like the constant extra +1 to saves above what the half-orc gets with sacred tattoo.

Problem with the archaeologist is he has to turn the bonus on. He doesn't get it flat footed, when a trap goes off, for prolonged exposure effects, etc.

I like the half-orc version for this reason. I went with a UMD using barbarian spamming wand of divine favor. Saves are always +2, and attacks are +2 when I need them, usually. I also plan on the Jingasa for +2 AC. Can't say fate's favored was the core of this build, but it's certainly very nice to have, makes UMD much more valuable to me. Had to give up Orc Ferocity for the Sacred Tattoo, but I figured in the long run +2 to all saves is much better than Orc Ferocity.

Half-orc inquisitor that casts his own divine favor would be nice, too, especially at 6th/9th levels, etc., when you'll be +3 and +4 to attack and damage. And even better once you're able to Quicken the divine favor and use it immediately.

Don't know the archaeologist archetype that well, so can't say if it's fun to play, or will really make much use out of an extra +1 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks when he's performing for himself. Guess I don't really think of bards as primary damage dealers. And a constant +2 to saves is just better than +2 to all that only when you're performing, I think.

Best use of Fate's Favored? Take your pick/choose your flavor I guess.

Ah, thanks, I knew this had to be a build already, so thought I'd ask before I tried sifting through the details myself.

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Well, you have to be an 11th level Fighter for pin down... but maybe you're already close to that.

I suggest dipping Cleric. Hopefully as a fighter you have at least 12 wisdom. Some of the 1st level domain powers are helpful. Growth for swift action to enlarge, for example. But mainly for variant channeling Earth. You have to be non-Good to choose the channel to harm. But then with a standard action, you can turn all squares in a 30' radius into difficult terrain for 1 minute, so no 5' steps. Now as you probably don't have charisma, you may also need a feat to make this worth it, Extra Channel.

And you get +2 will save as a cleric, though you lose 1 BAB. But you can now use cleric spell trigger items, and memorize a bless/divine favor, and an extra Enlarge Person if you take Growth domain.


Going to be playing The Confirmation with my 9th PFS character soon, and had an inspiration for a character. Don't know what the build is exactly, though.

The name was the first thing: The Inevitable. A guy who pushes through attacks, spells, etc., and slowly but surely debuffs, disables, and triumphs through force of will.

An oversimple sketch is a grappler, but that's not what I imagine. Rather, something that considers all major threats, and first maximizes defenses against them. High AC, CMD, DR, saves, rerolls for failed saves, immunities, resistances, deflecting attacks, evasion, all that kind of stuff.

And then be able to advance while shutting down the enemy. So like, resist/deflect/something the first worst attack from almost anything, then start to debuff or deny/prevent. Knowledges? Monk stuff? Any ideas for this build? High hp, certainly.

In balance I'd say, what this build gives up, is the ability to do a lot of damage fast. Rather, it focuses on certain avoidance of a few rounds of any potential enemy's attacks, then progressively debilitates its enemy, then if nobody else is there to do damage, can safely start to do enough damage itself to incapacitate the enemy.

No need to be OP, but PFS wise, should be okay though early levels (though undeveloped,) should be strong from levels 5-9, and should either stay strong or at least not peter off from 10-12.

Monk, Paladin, Inquistor, and Barbarian all thematically fit I'd say. Dwarf or some resistant race like Aasimar or Tiefling maybe, too.

Paladin at 1st just for a bonus feat? Is that worth delaying all the benefits you get with levels for the archer archetype? If you like the flavor, okay, but I'm not sure its necessary to dip Paladin here...

And isn't there a feat for using Dex for your CMB? Since using the archer's tricks is at your CMB -4 that would be helpful, right?

Adds nice flavor to an over-powered build. There will be some baddies that are basically immune to all your tricks, but you can still shoot them to death.

But is Combat Patrol really worth it? Takes a full round action to activate every round, so you're giving up your attack and just taking AoO's.

I like Dangerously Curious and even with dumping CHA you can get fairly reliable with UMD by mid-levels. Just keep your wand in hand and when you smell trouble start tapping yourself with it. In order to use the wand, it's good to have the base stat required so you don't have to also make a much more difficult UMD check vs faking the stat. So Wis 11+ for 1st level divine spells (clw, divine favor, shield of faith, prot evil, lead blades, aspect of falcon) or 11+ int for 1st level wizard (enlarge, shield, etc.)

At 3rd level my 8 Cha Barb has +7 UMD, so succeeds on divine wands 1/3 of the time, and gets on average 7 uses before he jams it for the day by rolling a 1. By 12th level he should have +24 UMD, so he can reliably fake almost anything.

Huh, a more sensible way to clear the area would be to examine it as you go, ask questions if possible at inns and pubs about what's out there, or farmsteads. Get an idea of what you might be looking for. Then scout the area, like a grid. Look for signs of bad things carefully. Yes, go stealthy, find tracks, follow tracks, and ambush the bad things on your own terms, hopefully. Also giving you the chance to summon and buff.

If your party has no tracker, hire one.

Yeah, I'd expect a party of idiots that just go stomping blindly through the wilderness would have a great chance of disappearing.

I don't know the AP, don't know if your GM could get that much flexibility out of it... how much work it would be to rewrite allowing for smarter strategies and possibly increasing CR's of encounters to compensate for the PC's ambushing the baddies a lot, etc. I kind of figure you guys would already be trying to turn it around on the baddies by gathering intel, tracking, etc, so I'm guessing your GM just prefers to ambush you. Maybe have a talk with him about this, how it could still be challenging and even more fun if he tried to let you guys be smart.

I'll chime in again for the party composition vote.

Summoning has been great on occasion for my lvl 9 PFS conjurer, and for my lvl 8 PFS cleric. But before memorizing spells for the day, I check to see what the party looks like. All archers and squishies? Yup, memorizing at least 3 or 4 SM III, IV, V. As well as a II and I for scouting and setting off traps, etc, as needed. All tough frontline guys? Well, maybe still a SM IV for 1d3 Lantern Archons in that situation, or for a Hound Archon in case we run into something evil that wants to dominate the frontline fighter. But really not nearly as many SM's memorized in this second case, which is the case you find yourself in.

But as a wizard, you get to decide what role to play more than almost any other class, by deciding what spells to memorize that day. Look at your party, take yourself out of it, figure out where they'll die without you, and then fill that role.

If you can first round go first, knowledge, discover something nasty that'll nullify the fighter/paladin frontline combo (DR, attacking with weapons can break their weapons, flying SLA's, etc.,) let them know and summon something that'll at least delay the BBEG while everybody comes up with a solution. In a balanced campaign, straight ahead melee parties should run into some situations they can't handle without spellcasting help. If everything dies quickly with straight ahead melee, then your character is unnecessary in that campaign, as it is being run, at least.

Not saying you should try to make summoning work given your current party composition, but there may be something the GM can do differently that would make your character more essential to the party if you're feeling ineffective, since it sounds like that might also be at play here.

I'm a sword and board fighter that uses improved shield bash, improved twf, bashing shield, etc. And I'm going for high AC.

+1 Deflection is nice, and frees up a ring slot, but I was likely going to get a +2 ring eventually... well, probably not in my PFS career. but I also wasn't likely to want 3 different rings and so need to free up a slot... but worth 2000gp anyways.

anything else I'd take for wrist slot that might make me regret getting the duelist's vambraces?

1/r reduce penalty for attacking with off hand by 2, especially nice with shield slam - this seems really powerful to me... and I assume the reduced penalty is also factored into the CMB for the free bull rush. Is this worth another 6000gp for my build? If it works like I think it does, I'd say yes. If I don't get to factor the reduced penalty to attack into the CMB of the free shield bash, then probably not quite...

So the vembraces only help if using a double weapon or two weapons. I'm a sword and board fighter with Two-Weapon fighting. Not sure if I'd get the +1 deflection bonus? Pretty sure I'd get to 1/r reduce the penalty for attacking with my shield by 2 (whenever I get a full attack...)

Basically, is a shield a weapon? If conditional, when is it a weapon?

Zaister wrote:
Bellona wrote:
... (even though I always think of Za'ha'dum when I read it).


I always keep hearing someone warning "If you go to Rahadoum, you will die."

Prophesy fulfilled

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okay, took a minute to do this, hope it's useful...

Accept Affliction - can't find this spell?
Archon's Trumpet - can't find this one either
Light of Iomedae - can't find it

probably not for scrolls or wands, maybe potions/oils or as prereqs for magic items as appropriate
Align Weapon good - Cleric 2 - like SM?
Corruption Resistance - gains [good] on casting, like SM and Align Weapon, Paladin, Inq 2
Divine Vessel - Oracle 8, but only [good] for divine aspect, as SM
Follow Aura - Inq 2, but only [good] to follow evil, as SM

by level of Cleric, Sorc/Wiz list, or if not on their lists, then by lowest level of whatever other list it's on:

25gp scrolls, 50gp potions, 750 gp wands (less discount)
Bless Water - Cleric , Paladin 1
Karmic Blessing - Samsarans only, but okay as a scroll maybe to treat skill as class skill, so +3 if trained and it's not already a class skill, for 1 round, 25gp scroll must UMD if not samsaran, Cleric, Witch 1
Protection From Evil - Cleric, Paladin, Sorc/Wiz 1
Rally Point - Paladin 1 - okay as a UMD wand
Sanctify Corpse - Cleric, Inq, Paladin, Witch 1
Veil of Heaven - Aasimar only, Paladin 1 - great for UMD, 10 minutes of +2 sacred to AC and saves vs evil outsiders
Veil of Positive Energy - Paladin 1 - also great UMD, as Veil of Heaven but vs Undead

150gp scrolls, 300gp potions, 4500gp wands
Angelic Aspect, Lesser - Cleric, Paladin, Sorc/Wiz 2
Burst of Radiance - Cleric, Druid, Sorc/Wiz 2
Blinding Ray - only for Dhampirs? Cleric, Paladin 2 and Inquisitor 3
Consecrate - Cleric 2 - good to have as scroll, not memorized
Divine Arrow - Paladin 2*
Light Lance - Paladin 2*
Litany of Righteousness - Inq 3, Paladin 2*
Martyr's Bargain - Cleric, Paladin 2
Protection From Evil, Communal - Cleric, Inq, Paladin, Sorc/Wiz, Summoner 2
Sacred Space - Aasimar only, Cleric, Paladin 2
Spear of Purity - Cleric 2
Touch of Mercy - Bard, Cleric, Sorc/Wiz 2
Wake of Light - Paladin 2*

* note Paladin only 2nd level scrolls are 200gp, potions if possible 400gp, wands 6000gp

375gp scrolls, 750gp potions, 11250gp wands
Archon's Aura - Cleric, Oracle, Paladin 3
Blade of Bright Victory - Paladin 3
Holy Whisper - Paladin 3*
Magic Circle Against Evil - Cleric, Paladin, Sorc/Wiz 3
Sanctify Armor - Inq 4, Paladin 3*

* note Paladin only 3rd level scrolls are 525gp, potions if possible 1050gp, wands 15750gp

700gp scrolls, 21000gp wands
Angelic Aspect - Cleric, Sorc/wiz 4, Paladin 3
Blaze of Glory - Paladin 4*
Crusader's Edge - Cleric, Inq, Paladin 4
Holy Smite - Cleric 4
Holy Sword - Paladin 4*, maybe good for UMD types as a scroll at high levels
Shield of the Dawnflower - must be follower of Sarenrae? Bard, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger 4

* note Paladin only 4th level scrolls are 1000gp, wands 30000gp

1125gp scrolls, 33750gp wands
Dispel Evil - Cleric 5 or Paladin 4 - not bad as a scroll, 9 rounds of +4 Deflection vs evil and one auto dispel evil enchantment for 1125gp less discount
Hallow - Cleric, Druid 5
Holy Ice - Cleric 5
Hymn of Mercy - Bard, Cleric 5

1650gp scrolls
Chains of Light - Cleric, Sorc/Wiz 6, Inq 5, Paladin 4
Eagle Aerie - Druid, Summoner 6
Eaglesoul - Cleric 6, Paladin 4, Summoner 5

Bestow Grace of the Champion - Cleric 7, Paladin 4
Holy Word - Cleric 7
Hymn of Peace - Bard 6, Cleric 7
Anelic Aspect, Greater - Cleric, Sorc/Wiz 8, Paladin 4

Holy Aura - Cleric 8

Magic items that qualify for the discount

**** - worth considering for anybody
Holy weapon enhancement - +2 equivalent, so at least +1 Holy so +3, so 18000gp, 32k, 50k, 72k, etc as more enhancements are added

Abjurant Salt - for 600gp, this is a great higher level situational single use item. full round action to get 5' diameter or 15' line that evil summoned or called creatures cannot pass. period. that's powerful, and cheap. yeah, I'll take that AoO while I encircle you, now you're screwed.

Shining Wayfinder - only useful to good pathfinders, but awesome - 2000gp for at will detect evil, which is OP, plus 1/day cl3 Prot evil, what's not to love?

*** - great for some
Horseshoes of Sacred Silver - these are freaking awesome, and I'm going to assume they're available for all mounts, not just horses. if you have a mount that attacks and overruns, or tramples, or bull rushes, you want these. 20k is reasonable, even better with a discount

Strand of Prayer Beads, Standard - 46k for 3 1/day uses. just the +4 to caster level for 10 minutes use is worth it for some builds, plus some healing options, and a holy smite, too. damn, +4 to caster level... as in not just spell effects, but penetrating SR

** - maybe somebody will pick one up
Archon's Torch - 750gp for single use cl5 archon's aura DC 14 will... if you're LG - not bad, and cheap

Ring of Curing - 10k for increase the maximums of the healing spells by 2, so clw cast by you can heal up to 1d8+7 if you're 7th level plus, cmw to 2d8+12, heal to 170, etc. - maybe if you're looking for something at high level and have the gp, or can find some synergies...

Zenj Spirit Fetish - 4500gp for single use of dispel evil cl 9th - maybe nice for the fighter/rogue if all the casters get heavily enchanted and you need a way to dispel it

Nine-Fold Spirit Sword - 29k for an interesting sword, +1 ghost touch longsword (worth 8k), and 9 charges to use, recharge 1 use per day, 1 use for undead bane for 1 min (so basically a +3, 18k sword vs undead), or 2 charges for a chance to expel an undead possessing somebody you hit DC 17 will, or 3 charges for a chance to destroy an undead you hit, DC 17 will negates

Holy Avenger - 121k for a +5 holy cold iron longsword is a bargain for a high level paladin, especially with 5% or 10% off, and it comes with SR 5 + paladin level and at will greater dispel magic vs areas

Halo of Inner Calm - 16k, and worth it for a high level good tiefling character for +4 resistance vs spells with the [emotion] descriptor and SR 13 vs spells with the [evil] descriptor and another +2 sacred bonus on all saving throws (this is for all saves, not just vs spells with the [evil] descriptor, unless I'm reading it wrong.)

Bloodbrew Elixir - 1000gp, an oddity that might be worth it for fun at higher levels in the right situation. releases a spawn vampire from its master's control, and causes addiction that prevents a vampire from healing.

* - no way anybody will use these
Orb of Golden Heaven - 22k, continual flame constant, melee touch as holy water, and for good wielders, 1/day cl10 consecrate and searing light
Scepter of Heaven - 74k makes a great weapon
Crown of Heaven - 150k awesome, and makes the Scepter and Orb way better, too, for just 246k gp total. okay so not for PFS except maybe level 14+ seekers... still would be awesome to see somebody put all these together

Everflowing Aspergillum - 7805gp, crappy base weapon and weak ability to full round range touch 10' max holy water at will

Symbol of Sanguine Protection - 17.5k for holy water and in case somebody tries to suck your blood... no thanks

Devil's Key - 67k for a +2 longsword that lets you planeshift 1/day to permanently slay an evil outsider you're fighting...

Grave Salt - 1100gp for some consecrate... why not just a scroll?

Lord's Banner, Crusades - 100k for a portable Hallow... maybe if you can attach a spell to it that lasts for a year, like freedom of movement or dimensional anchor...

Valor's Minion - 41k for a 32k weapon with a perk for classes with challenge and smite evil features... well, if you were a paladin or cavalier already planning on a +2 holy bastard sword, maybe

Holy Staff - who uses staves? this is a nice one, but still

Rythius, The Kyton Scourge - 53k for +1 shock whip, and 3/day free dimensional anchor effect on tripping an opponent (cl 12th), and for good wielders, kyton bane... weak

Staff of the Avenger - 37k, don't think of this as a staff, it's a lance. a +5 holy lance that emits a magic circle of prot vs evil, to be exact. If you use a lance, you MUST get this. Tough part is, you need to be able to recharge it. So unless your party includes a 13th level Cleric or Paladin, or you can afford to buy 7th level scrolls to recharge it with UMD, it's just a +2 lance with some benes. So, must have for Seeker Paladins that like lances... even brokenly cheap for them, but worthless for anybody else.

Horn of Goodness/Evil - 6.5k for 1/day magic circle vs evil for 1 hour... just let somebody memorize and cast it, one of the best 3rd level cleric spells already - and you have to be good for it to work, nah

Wayfinder of the Planes - terribly overpriced magic circle vs alignment 1/day for an hour at 18,000gp

Knight's Pennon, Honor - 2,200gp for 1/day 6 minute prot evil... yeah right

Necklace of Fangs - 1800gp to add 2 to the DC vs vampires of brandishing a holy symbol, etc, to keep them at bay... wow, like that ever happens anyway

Ghost Mirror Armor - 23k for +4 equivalent armor with a couple perks, situational at best

Gravewatch Pendant - 8k for better AC vs undead, again situational at best

Mind Sentinel Medallion - 3.5k for +2 resist vs mind-affecting spells, SLA's, and su's, and 1 time forced reroll of failed save vs domination or confusion then it's consumed... meh neck slot item

Stake of the Righteous - can't find

Sword of Vengeance - not for PFS, so doesn't apply to this thread

Strand of Prayer Beads, Greater - not actually on the list, only the Smite bead requires a [good] spell, so only Standard gets discount

Hmmm. You don't have Align Weapon on your list... I thought since it has a [see text] descriptor, that it must have an alignment, and so would make the list, at least for items which require align weapon [good] version, if not for scroll/oil (can you get a scroll of only the good? Oil I can see, scroll/wand probably not.)

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yeah, there's a lot more stuff with "creator must be good"... wouldn't mind hearing that the boon's been amended... because there really aren't many [Good] spells, and so not many magic items which qualify for the discount.

and though some of those items looked great for particular builds, not sure anybody who wasn't already going to get them will now get them because they now have a 5% or 10% discount.

Silver Smite Bracelet for all Paladins, just saying


Ah, using Herolab as my search engine has limitations. Adding weapon powers doesn't show you spell prereqs...

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% off items with a spell prereq with the [Good] descriptor...

So, anybody use this yet? What for? I've got 5% off with the character that played at GenCon (a conjurer), and 10% off with the character that got GM credit for running at a con recently (a sword-and-board fighter.) GM credit gets the 10%, right? Event also scored an Outstanding Victory if that makes a difference.

wand of prot evil (if you don't want to just spend the 2pp, or if you have them from a chronicle sheet with reduced charges.) or scroll/potion

hmm... how about a list of spells with the [Good] descriptor for wands, potions/oils, and scrolls

Bless Water
Prot Evil
Align Weapon good
Prot Evil Communal
Sacred Space
Spear of Purity
Archon's Aura
Magic Circle Against Evil
Holy Smite
Dispel Evil
Holy Ice
Holy Word
Holy Aura

Holy Sword

missing anything? that's not much of a list...

Rod of Alertness
Scepter of Heaven
Holy Staff
Discerning Goggles
Horseshoes of Glory
Horseshoes of Sacred Silver
Crown of Heaven
Halo of Inner Calm
Phylactery of Faithfulness
Gravewatch Pendant
Mind Sentinel Medallion
Necklace of Fangs
Symbol of Sanguine Perfection
Silver Smite Bracelet
Abjurant Salt
Bloodbrew Elixer
Candle of Abaddon (oddly...)
Horn of Goodness
Knight's Pennon of Honor
Orb of Golden Heaven
Prayer Wheel of Ethical Strength (good)
Strand of Prayer Beads
Wayfinder, Shining
Zenj Spirit Fetish
Staff of the Avenger
Halo of Inner Calm - awesome for good tieflings
Archon's Torch
Lord's Banner of Crusades

that's all I got, I'm sure there are more. Some interesting ones in there. Likely more spells with the [good] descriptor, I just looked through Cleric spells, and stumbled up Holy Sword. Then searched my Herolab Magic Items for evil, then holy, since so many [good] spells are either holy or vs evil.

ah, forgot weapons and armor:
Devil's Key
Valor's Minion
Demonsorrow Curve Blade - somebody please save 90,469 (-10% for some) for this for season 5 play. If you build a character up to 11th just through GM credit, this is the weapon you want.
Everflowing Aspergillium
Holy Avenger
Stake of the righteous
Ghost Mirror Armor

Oh yeah, that went without saying wand of clw, and I can use it a little bit... with guidance from jade wayfinder, first time I'm playing this guy this week at level 2, out of combat I can +9 UMD, so 50% success, 5% crit fail, so on average 10 uses per day... maybe I should get 2 of each wand I want so if one jams I still have the other to try.

Raging vitality does look great, works well with Controlled Rage, too. But there's nothing I want to give up for it... Combat Reflexes at 9th level maybe, since I'll have to be enlarged to use it (not going reach weapons with Crowd Control, and Daredevil Boots/Acrobatics.)

On weapons, the best is keen (19-20, x3) or keen x4, which are mathematically equal, then keen (18-20, x2), which is about 12% behind on damage. Straight keen x2 is another 12% behind that, so a x2 weapon does about 3/4 damage of a x4 or (19-20, x3). Greatsword is only 6% above that, and 6% behind (18-20, x2). The extra 1.5 it does over the nodachi together with +12 damage starting for both means 19 vs 17.5 average, so the nodachi does about 8% less before considering criticals, so greatsword is better. For nodachi to be better, your extra damage has to be enough that 1.5 is less than 6% difference, or 25 average greatsword, or another +6, so when you're adding +18 damage per hit or more, which is a +4 belt (that I'm not planning to get...), +2 enhancement to weapon, divine favor for +2, or +2 belt, enhancement, divine favor, and 2 points into strength or enlarged... also power attack level 4 pretty much gets you there... so yeah, nodachi after 4th level will be as good or better, but only ever slightly (never more than 6%, and practically not more than 3%.)

Also on weapons, looking at my budget, is Adamantine something I need for 3000gp? Obviously goes well with 3rd level Improved Sunder feat so I have a chance to break non-wooden hafted weapons and armor with a single sunder attempt. Hmm, hardness 10 for steel/non-wooden hafted weapons, 15 for mithral, +2 hardness per enhancement bonus, so adamantine would bypass up to +4 steel or +2 mithral. My average damage by level 3 won't have gone up much, still 19 (21 with divine favor,) so good chance to give broken condition to anything with 40hp or less after bypassing hardness, which includes weapons to +3 (one-handed metal hafted only +2), armor to a bonus of 8 without enhancements, or 6 and +1 enhancement, or 4 and +2... so armor still not great. But this is 3rd level, so not bad. Broken weapons are -2 to attack and damage, and are reduced to just a x2 crit on a 20. Broken armor halves armor bonus, rounded down and double armor check penalties. And broken weapons will be destroyed the 2nd round, if not the 1st. Now the bad guy gets to provoke AoO's when he's reduced to just unarmed strikes for offence.

Without adamantine, I'd only be able to break wooden-hafted or un-enhanced weapons in 1 round. Which sucks.

Edit: hmmm... think I've just discovered an argument for the nodachi. It will do a little less damage on a hit, say 18, which only breaks up to hp 36, which takes one off the AC that I can break with a single hit and gives me more of a chance to not break weapons... except I crit more, especially keen, which gives me a much better chance of crit sundering, which is awesome, guaranteed to break in one round, and will have a decent chance of destroying most weapons with a single hit, too, and is capable of sundering much better armor. Although this line of thinking is risky, relying on the 30% crit chance over the keen greatsword's 20% chance, it does seem to go with the sunder focus, and the Destroyer probably likes criticals a lot... Yeah, alright, you sold me. Nodachi it is.

Another nice thing about the nodachi is that when enlarged/using lead blades, the 1d10 goes to 2d8 then 3d8, while a greatsword goes from 2d6 to 3d6 to 4d6. So a nodachi enlarges much better, keeping the 1.5 less damage with one enlargement, while base dice increase average damage by 3.5 for both, so once crits are factored in, nodachi is easier to get above the greatsword (need another +6 damage above, enlarged you need only +4 or so.) And when double enlarged, the nodachi is only 1/2 point behind the greatsword! Which makes it a flat out better weapon when considering criticals. Which also makes it more likely that I'll try to pursue a triple-buff strategy when possible, divine favor, enlarge, and lead blades (all wisdom) with UMD, at high levels anyway.

Major Edit: Destroyer's Blessing is not PFS legal, dammit... well, Raging Vitality at 7th then and Combat Reflexes at 9th.

not totally committed on the enlarge approach. I'll probably carry a few potions for when I have time to buff, but I'm thinking with Fate's Favored I'll try to UMD Divine Favor every chance I get as my primary buff.

Though I plan on carrying, in addition to my primary weapon (probably still greatsword, rp wise I like how generic/iconic it is, though a large bastard sword has also crossed my mind,) amentum for my javelins, guisarme for reach trip, Lucerne Hammer for bludgeoning/piercing and brace and sunder armor (which I'll never do probably,) pilum for my opening volley vs shielded bosses, ranseur for reach disarm, and scorpion whip for 15' disarm or trip with less damage.

And again, yeah, duh, furious as 2nd weapon enhancement, that's the kind of advice I need, thanks.

Edit: finally, more rp, picturing roman style equipment in egypt as the Osirion way to go, so greatsword, pilum, javelin, etc. think Gladiator.

Curious, what Staff would let me use Divine Favor/Might at high caster levels? For PFS?

I did a quick search for more stuff that would work with Fate's Favored, and all I came up with was wand of divine favor, Jingasa of the fortunate warrior, and dragonbone divination sticks. Now with Kiinyan's comment, yeah, avoiding mooks and iteratives at least would be nice, so +2 luck to AC from the Jingasa is probably a must.

Anything else work with luck?

Edit: and yeah, +1, furious, keen, +2... but courageous... after I add that, is my enhancement bonus +5? So courageous adds +2 to anything that's getting a more bonus, like strength and con while ragin, and will save. Or just +1, since it's a +2 weapon with special abilities? and what about adamantine? +3000gp worth it to ignore harness and kill golems?

And there's a fair bit of roleplay in this guy. Golarion specific, Osirion specific. Nodachi just feels too Tien, though I appreciate the 18-20 and keen approach. But I'm also not going for improved crit feats.

Knowledge local and Diplomacy are also not common barb tricks. Though I'll only be +5 and +6, that's still enough to be occasionally useful, and make my own rolls.

This guy's not just into sundering/destoying (hmmm... he really should be chaotic neutral I guess...), he's also appreciative of magic (though he doesn't really know much about it book-wise.)

Also, with some final tweaking, by level 12 skills are up to +18 perception (+23 if I eventually get eyes of the eagle), +19 UMD at level 11 so I never fail divine wands of 2nd level max spells, and +25 acrobatics to avoid AoO's so I hopefully have a good chance of not getting swatted as I move up to the 15' reach high-tier baddies, or when I position myself to take advantage of crowd control.

That's what I usually go for, the standard or "ideal" build, then make it a little worse to make it my character. Half orc is supposed to be worse. stats are a little well-rounded to be ideal, as many would dump int and cha both to 7 and have 16 con and 13 wis to begin with. sunder obsession is probably not normal, either.

Was looking for tweaks like Driver325 provided, now my 8th level rage power will be Unexpected Strike.

I'm probably more acrobatics focused than most barbarians, and am completely neglecting my AC and hoping DR and hp will suffice, and that battle will be over quickly. Not sure if that describes all barbarians, or if some do things differently.

Daredevil boots for +5 comp to Acro to avoid AoO's for 1400gp a must, plus if you move through an enemy's square untyped +1 to attack that enemy.

And I'm liking the half-orc's sacred tattoo/fate's favored resonance for +2 luck to all saves for the half orc, and double effectiveness of wand of divine favor... though destroyer's blessing, obviously the backbone to the build, may be unnecessary, since it only gives you rounds of rage back, and in PFS, you're not running out of rounds of rage after 1st level, unless you have a rage power that spends several rounds of rage per use...

But thanks for chiming in. Unexpected strike and Ghost rager I'll look at.

Edit: hmmm. ghost rager looks useful situationally, when I need touch AC or am fighting incorporeals... Unexpected strike is awesome, that's definitely replacing one of the increased DR's.

Yeah, I didn't see anything that screamed "surprise!" when I ran it, so I just rolled for initiative and went from there.

Seriously guys, nobody has any comment?

Feedback from folks who've played similar barbarian builds would be especially appreciated.

Ryan Costello wrote:
maybe alternating between different effects that call for a mix of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.

Ah, if the scenario ever gets an edit, I'd say yes, call for one save every two hours and then have a list of like 8 things that happen in order. "Push through a dense thicket of thornbushes, turn out to be poisoned, Fort save", "walk through a charred section of forest and find out why, trees above have exploding fire sacs they drop when they sense vibration, hoping to feed on your decaying corpse, Ref save vs 12d6 fireball", "walk through a placid glade, will save vs disorientation, slow, sleep, etc. as you inhale hallucinogenic pollen", "wade through a bog, fort save vs disease or sickened as fetid water soaks into the numerous scratches you have accumulated."

On to my 8th PFS character, and it's time for a melee type, 1st character archery ranger (now 10), 2nd conjurer (9), 3rd archery cleric (8), 4th witch (5), 5th sword and board fighter (5.2), 6th saurian druid (3), 7th funny touch cleric/sorcerer dip (3)

So, barbarian, since I've never made anything that smashes


A child of the harsh deserts of Osirion...

Moved to Sothis young, a bit of an outcast by birth as a half-orc in a city of humans, he found answers in the underground cult of Norborger initially. There was something he liked about it. Liberating items and lives from their rightful owners. But then he was reminded of Rovagug from a Belkzen assasin (Rovagug is quite popular in the desert), and found his true calling. Everything is wrong, and must be destroyed. Eventually anyway. It's going to happen. And he'll help it along as he can.

Dangerously Curious? Yes.

PFS is rationalized by the theory that accumulation of power is dangerous, and the more powerful the Pathfinder Society gets, the greater the chance of it exploding or being subverted or misused. Idealists are the most dangerous people in the world, anyway.

build summary: religion/Rovagug is a big part of this guy. destruction=sunder so he's going for Spell Sunder (and CAGM when he reaches Seeker levels.)

Half Orc (true neutral):
City Raised - no weapon familiarity, prof in whip, +2 to know (local)
Rock Climber (or building climber...) - +1 to acro and climb, lose intimidate
Sacred Tattoo - +1 LUCK bonus on saves, lose orc ferocity

Invulnerable Rager - gain DR (1/2 level)/-, and resist fire or cold (1/3 level, I'll take fire from the desert) - lose uncanny dodge, imp uncanny dodge, and trap sense
Urban Barbarian - Crowd control for +1 dodge and +1 to attack when adjacent to 2 or more enemies, and Controlled Rage option, lose fast movement

Dangerously Curious - +1 to UMD and class skill
Fate's Favored - double all luck bonuses - this means +2 luck to all saves with Sacred Tattoo

Starting stats:
STR 18 (+2 racial)
DEX 14
CON 15 (+1 at 4)
WIS 12

early purchases with prestige points:
wand of divine favor (+1 luck to att and dam, with Fate's Favored that's +2)

Levels all Barbarian
1 - +1hp, Perception +5, UMD +5, Acro +6, Power Attack, mkw greatsword, mwk chain shirt, 2pp on wand of clw, 2pp on wand of divine favor, misc other weapons, potions (enlarge person, bless weapon, magic weapon, clw,) ioun stone for +1 UMD
2 - +1 skill, Perc +6, UMD +6, Know (local) +5, Swim +7, Reckless Abandon
3 - +1 skill, Perc +7, UMD +7, Acro +7, Climb +8, Combat Reflexes, Adamantine Greatsword
4 - +1 skill, Perc +8, UMD +8, Acro +9, Superstitious, +1 Con, +1 to Greatsword, belt of Str +2
5 - +1 skill, Perc +9, UMD +9, Ride +5, Diplo +3, Extra Rage Power (Witch Hunter), +1 cloak of resist, +2 to greatsword
6 - +1 skill, Perc +10, UMD +10, Acro +11, Spell Sunder
7 - +1 hp, Perc +11, UMD +11, Acro +12, Destroyer's Blessing, +4 belt of str or +2 belt of perfection?
8 - +1 hp, Perc +12, UMD +12, Acro +13, Increased DR, +1 STR
9 - +1 hp, Perc +13, UMD +13, Acro +14, Improved Sunder
10 - +1 hp, Perc +14, UMD +14, Acro +15, Increased DR (now 7/-)
11 - +1 hp, Perc +15, UMD +15, Acro +16, Dazing Assault
12 - +1 hp, Perc +16, UMD +16, Acro +17, Come and Get Me, +1 STR

Through level 7's either belt of +4 str or +2 physical perfection, I've accounted for my entire WBL. Past that I'm not sure what I'll get, and perhaps it's better to put off some of these purchases for other items earlier. Circlet of Persuasion, 4500gp for +3 to Cha skills for UMD (and diplo). Jingasa of the Fortunate Warrior for +2 luck to AC (with Fate's Favored) and 1/d negate crit or sneak. Dragonbone divination sticks for 6400gp to get randomly +3 luck to one save for the whole day (+6 with Fate's Favored, which is +4 more than I already have...)

Armor? haven't planned on upgrading it, figure I'm going to get hit every time and hope I have enough hp and DR to survive longer than they do.

UMD with spring loaded wrist sheathes, Divine Favor and possibly lead blades/enlarge at higher level. May be other uses for UMD?

Finally, little cheesy I know, but is it PFS legal to have masterwork tools for ANY skill? That's how the rules seem to read. If so, yeah, +2 to perception, acrobatics, and UMD from masterwork tools. Hmm.. I'm guessing you have to "ready" a tool, so it would be move action that provokes AoO's, but that's just a guess, how I'd rule as GM. But what's the rule? Should mwk tools fill a slot? Eyes or head for perception, feet for acrobatics (I got Air Jordans!), gloves for UMD?

Edit: mwk tools can only give a limited +2 circ bonus to a skill. Limited either by uses (10 with a healer's kit, eg) or in the ways you can use it (need to open the Pathfinder's Chronicle and read it to get the +2). Since this would be adjudicated per GM, I'm guessing this is not PFS legal? Or could I just say, Acro to avoid AoO's but not to keep balance, UMD to activate a wand only, and Perception to act in a surprise round but not to search?

Also, thinking of swapping to Combat Reflexes at 9th and Improved Sunder at 3rd, and belt of physical perfection at 7th. I'll be getting the Adamantine weapon during 3rd level, and will then love to sunder weapons. And spell sunder at 6th, would be nice to already have improved sunder and not wait til 9th. Combat reflexes is great, but enlarged the feat only gets me one extra AoO/r with 14 dex reduced to 12 (though Controlled rage could help me to be flexible with that), and when I get the belt of physical perfection during 7th level Combat reflexes will become more valuable, since it would then give me at least 2 extra AoO's while enlarged.

thanks! that's what I was missing, haven't played a straight fighter yet and forgot about armor training.

Ran this at a con over the weekend, and had a player break it worse than a druid.

Now, I've GM'd for this player's character before, and I'm sorry to say, this character is frequently useless, and only sometimes good to have along. So when she totally broke the scenario, she was giddy with satisfaction at having her character finally be the Hero.

Bones Oracle. Once they'd survived the Titan 'Pede, now the party had a colossal 12HD 30' reach pet immune to poison and disease with 60' move and an ungodly bite attack and AC. How do you think the rest of the scenario went? Forced them to make some ride checks here and there, but otherwise... arrived at the Hezrou in about 5 hours.

Helped we had a Cleric of Desna that had Aura of Freedom and cast some sort of mass water walking for the bog.

In my case, looking at fighter with +4 dex. Right now he's sporting a +2 agile breastplate at 5th level, for +9 armor and +4 dex for 4550gp. But he wants better than this, eventually.

Looking down the list, perhaps mithral hellknight plate is best, at +2, it increases my armor by 3 to +12, and keeps the +4 dex. But dayum the cost, 15000gp. For 12000 I can just bring my breastplate up to +4 and only be 1 less, and keep the agile part (both armors get -2 armor check penalty.) Then again, at higher levels I could drop another 12000 on the hellknight plate and get it up to +4, but I don't really have that option for the breastplate, I could only spend another 9000gp on it to get +5.

Am I missing something?

And in general, what are the best armor choices for AC focused builds given dex bonus desired? I'm TWF (sword and board) so 16 dex base and +2 belt.

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OMG Neutral doesn't mean Druid Neutral.

That's another aspect of alignment I see regularly assumed and disagree with, that if you're an alignment, you must be a zealous proselytizer of that alignment. You must go out of your way to prove other alignments wrong, you wake up every morning dedicated to advancing the ideals of your alignment. Rubbish. Whatever your alignment is, there's a third axis of Apathy/Zealotry. AD, you're talking Zealous neutral, why can't the rogue be Apathetic neutral? IE, not Neutral to promote a balance between good and evil in the world, but neutral in that he's not always good and not always evil in his actions but a little of both?

I wonder if it would be better to say Animate Dead etc is not Evil but prohibited to Good, that would make more sense and still have the same gameplay mechanic. (Assuming we don't currently have GM's that force alignment shifts from Neutral to Evil because of summoning Fiendish monsters...)

Same thing for [good] descriptor spells. You have to be able to identify with others in order to summon the belief necessary behind casting it, and Evils just can't do it. Neutrals yes, though sometimes without 100% conviction, depending on who the spell's being cast on.

But yeah, I know in PF Evil is a power, a force, as well as an alignment. Protection from Evil, Detect Evil. Which is the main argument against my interpretation of alignment. I say there is no Evil, just lack of Good, basically, but rules clearly say there is Evil as well as Good. Which leads to some good rules for gameplay perhaps (I like the idea of Prot Evil) but also to arguments about what's an evil act.

Instead of one definition for good/evil, we have two, one for good, and one for evil, and these definitions may conflict. My interpretation eliminates the potential for confusion. But it also might not work with the rules as written.

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One more time...

There are no evil acts. Evil is nothing more than a total lack of compassion/empathy/ability to identify (with your captives, for example.)

Good can ALWAYS identify with EVERYBODY, and so are unable to do harm unless doing nothing will lead to greater harm. And then they do harm with great sadness, because they feel the harm they're doing.

Evil NEVER identifies with ANYBODY, and so is able to do harm without hesitation, because they feel nothing in the act.

Neutral is in the middle. Or they go back and forth a little bit, as described above (I thought I'd be okay with using some fire to intimidate the captive into talking, but actually once I saw him burning I felt bad and put him out quickly.) Main point with Neutral is that they don't always identify with everybody. This will come into play most often when facing enemies (clear cut, people trying to kill you.) Neutral will like not identify with members of enemy groups, and will not feel bad about torturing or killing them. Think of Native Americans when they fought neighboring tribes for an example. You're not saying Native Americans were all evil because they scalped each other, are you?

My point again, it's not about the act. It's about how you see other people (all friends, some friends, no friends.) You want to make sure you're on a Neutral's friends list. Goods you don't have to worry about. Evils you know where they stand, too.


A couple related points. There are no innocents, and when people talk about innocents, they mean people you can identify with/feel empathy for. In the case of Evil, this is nobody, so nobody is innocent. Good=everybody innocent. Neutral, innocent really doesn't work.

Gods may be the ultimate source of authority and power, but they don't define what is good/evil/lawful/chaotic. Their alignments are determined by how they fit into the pre-existing framework. So no need to talk about gods here, just the framework.

Snowleopard wrote:
But speaking as a player: I would not want to adventure with someone who murders our defeated enemies and then lies about it.

This is what's most important in this debate. If the GM and other players don't generally have a problem with the player in question, then don't worry about it. If this thread has demonstrated one thing, it's that unless you want to spend a whole game session just debating alignment with your players, there's probably going to be confusion at the table as to what alignment means. So taking alignment too seriously is probably not going to make playing at the table more enjoyable for anybody (unless you all just want to sit around and debate each other...)

If the rest of you do have a problem with this player, let him know and if he can't adjust then boot him from your table. Nothing wrong with that. I tried playing at an evil table once, just couldn't do it. Not every table is for every player.

But I do enjoy a good debate myself from time to time, so...

There seems to be a lot of understanding of alignment in terms of one end of an axis (good or lawful) having a value of +1, and the other end (evil or chaotic) having a value of -1, and neutral being a 0. In the sense that Neutral is floating around in the middle not really caring, and the extremes are actively moving towards diametrically opposed goals. Good wants to do good. Evil wants to do evil. There are good acts and evil acts.

I see it in terms of Lawful and Good both being +1, Chaotic and Evil being 0, and Neutral in the middle somewhere. Neutral isn't disinterested, it's a partial measurement. Neutral has some Order to it, on the Lawful/Chaotic scale, Chaotic has no order, Lawful has total order (ideally.) Pure Good is always good to everybody. Pure evil is never helpful to anybody (when it doesn't serve their interests first.) Neutral on this axis is good only to a certain extent (limited to those they consider members of their group/community.)

Basically good to me means seeing others as yourself. Treating others how you would like to be treated, behaving how you hope others would behave. A Neutral American might not care if a million Chinese people have to die so he can have cheap clothing, but would care if a million Americans have to die for the same thing, because he sees himself in other Americans, but doesn't identify with Chinese people. A Good American would care about both the Chinese and American. An Evil American wouldn't care about either, so long as it's not him doing the dying.

I know people like to think that Evil means something like a character wants to go out of their way to hurt, defile, spread suffering. To me that's nonsense. An Evil character doesn't go out of their way for ANYTHING, that's what evil is, it doesn't care. If it serves their purpose (spread fear to gain control over a population so you can sit high and mighty over them, gaining their service to better meet your needs, for example) then sure, they kill, maim, rape, whatever, they don't care, as long as it's serving their purpose.

The Neutral person will do the same, but only up to a point. The Neutral soldier will rape and pillage when invading an enemy country, but will be a perfect gentleman when back home in his village. The good soldier will be good everywhere, the evil soldier probably doesn't have a village to go back to in the same sense as the neutral character might.

So, as you can't get it until level 6-7, a free like 10% chance of Command 3x per day, not great but not bad, if you can use the +5 Sense Motive.

Not saying it's a good value just yet, filling your belt slot and spending 4120gp, but it's usually expensive if you can get it at all to get +5 to a skill. Worth it for snake style?

It's a PFS item off a chronicle sheet. Won't say from which scenario to not spoil, but from tier 6-7, you get access to it for 4120 gp.

It gives you a +5 competence bonus to Sense Motive, and allows you to draw it deliver a single word command, as per the spell [CL 1st]. Treat as an improvised club when used in combat. Belt slot, so no belt of Dex or Str or Con.

Wasn't impressed when I got access to it for my character, but just now as I'm going over chronicles I had the thought that this might be good for something, to the right character. And then I thought Monk. There's some cool stuff monks can do with Sense Motive, right? And, some monks at least don't need Dex or Str that badly, so wouldn't miss the belt slot THAT much, if Sense Motive really gave them something. And, if unarmed, the monk could draw the sword to issue the Command as part of a move action and then free action drop it to continue on unarmed, perhaps attacking somebody who's now prone. What would be the DC of the Will save?

Any thoughts?

Put this in advice because it's a hypothetical build question more that a PFS question. Who could best utilize a given item. Though this may be general discussion, I don't know.

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If he's Chaotic, and had personal reasons for wanting them dead that other party members might not understand/agree with, then he'd finish them off just as he did. Neutral means as has been described above, a good person to your friends, but not necessarily to strangers.

It's almost like you're asking if he was wrong to kill helpless people, and the answer would be yes if he was Good, not necessarily if he's Neutral. Evil means you're not a good person even to your "friends".

It also sounds like you're saying you as GM have a problem with your player's behavior and you're asking us what to do about it in terms of some sort of rules judgement you can tell your player about, but the real solution is probably out of play. Talk to your player and let him know your concerns, see what he has to say. It's possible he's as suspected above, a CN only because he doesn't want the stigma/rules consequences of CE. If he wants to play a character that isn't campaign appropriate, you need to get him to be honest about it, and let him know that it's not okay, find another concept to play, or another table to play at. But it's also possible that he's really CN, and you two just need to talk about it a bit so you better understand where he's coming from.

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