Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: Blood on the Tracks.
Goblin Squad Member
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I think alignment, like bounties, may just be in the "not yet ready for discussion" basket.
The types of flags that can be placed on a player character was interesting -
Attacker: A player that attacks another player character that is not fair game gains the Attacker flag.
(no comment)
Criminal: This flag is given to players that break a law established by the settlement that controls the hex they're in.
(this gives settlement owners considerable power)
Thief: Looting an unlocked husk that you did not originally have looting rights to will mark you as a Thief.
(does anything else attract this marker?)
Traitor/Betrayer: Leaving a player or NPC group after betraying them may result in a flag: Traitor for PC groups and Betrayer for NPC alliances.
(no comment)
Heinous: Certain incredibly evil actions (like raising undead or using slaves in a construction project) may briefly flag a character with the Heinous flag.
(acquiring this tag may become a goal for some players)
Trespasser: Entering a settlement city that has forbidden you entry (due to too low reputation or other mechanics) applies the Trespasser flag, which persists while you're in the area and briefly after leaving.
(no comment)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?
Whilst it may be LAWFUL to raise undead in such a settlement it is still EVIL.
Take care not to confuse EVIL and UNLAWFUL/CHAOTIC. They are quite distinct.
Aside from which surely an Evil player in an Evil company would be pleased to see this flag. It is like a medal of honor for an evil player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?
I don't see why you wouldn't. The benefit of your hex/settlement being Evil is that you're much less likely to be confronted by someone who wants to actually do something about you having the Heinous flag :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was nothing in the blog suggesting anything like alignment shift. Perhaps alignment is immutable, even for murderous, perhaps insane 'fallen' paladins?
That seems like quite a leap of logic. Just because they didn't mention alignment shifts shouldn't be taken as evidence that they've abandoned the concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think alignment, like bounties, may just be in the "not yet ready for discussion" basket.
The types of flags that can be placed on a player character was interesting -
Attacker: A player that attacks another player character that is not fair game gains the Attacker flag.
(no comment)
Criminal: This flag is given to players that break a law established by the settlement that controls the hex they're in.
(this gives settlement owners considerable power)
Thief: Looting an unlocked husk that you did not originally have looting rights to will mark you as a Thief.
(does anything else attract this marker?)
Traitor/Betrayer: Leaving a player or NPC group after betraying them may result in a flag: Traitor for PC groups and Betrayer for NPC alliances.
(no comment)
Heinous: Certain incredibly evil actions (like raising undead or using slaves in a construction project) may briefly flag a character with the Heinous flag.
(acquiring this tag may become a goal for some players)
Trespasser: Entering a settlement city that has forbidden you entry (due to too low reputation or other mechanics) applies the Trespasser flag, which persists while you're in the area and briefly after leaving.
(no comment)
All of which should make you fair game to anyone playing a Paladin or who just want to maintain a Lawful / Good alignment. It actually looks like NOT attacking someone with a Heinous flag could cause a Paladin to become fallen.
Great update.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When bandits attack a caravan and steal the goods, will a portion of those goods be destroyed? Or will the bandits be able to transport the entire load to town?
If the latter, then it seems like there wouldn't be enough demand for those resources to justify a merchant taking the risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When bandits attack a caravan and steal the goods, will a portion of those goods be destroyed? Or will the bandits be able to transport the entire load to town?
If the latter, then it seems like there wouldn't be enough demand for those resources to justify a merchant taking the risk.
Or even better, if the Merchant has the ability to surrender, will they have the ability to hide a portion of the valuables so they can hang on to some of their haul while paying off the bandits. I am reminded of a great scene in The Name of the Wind where Chronicler is caught by bandits on the road but had a civil discussion with them, gave them enough loot to satisfy them, but had more hidden on his person and was able to continue on relatively unharmed after paying his "toll".
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Ah ha! Found it!)
I imagine that bandits would be able to take as much as can be carried, minus threaded items. They can probably take the wagons and pack animals too, to carry off more loot.
As for supply and demand...I don't really know enough to comment on that. However, I imagine there will be insurance companies and banks and loan sharks springing up to make such risks more acceptable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?I don't see why you wouldn't. The benefit of your hex/settlement being Evil is that you're much less likely to be confronted by someone who wants to actually do something about you having the Heinous flag :)
Just seems a little lopsided to an Evil character. Good characters don't get flagged for doing good things. While I understand the other flags are to control pvp, raising undead and slavery just makes it so you can kill an evil character in an area that says raising undead and slavery are okay without repercussions. So you can RPK evil characters in evil areas without having to worry about being flagged yourself.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wonder if a Bandit's Guild could be implemented as a sort of "rent-seeking"/racketeering activity?! Just came across that definition recently, is an interesting economic term.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just seems a little lopsided to an Evil character. Good characters don't get flagged for doing good things. While I understand the other flags are to control pvp, raising undead and slavery just makes it so you can kill an evil character in an area that says raising undead and slavery are okay without repercussions. So you can RPK evil characters in evil areas without having to worry about being flagged yourself.If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?I don't see why you wouldn't. The benefit of your hex/settlement being Evil is that you're much less likely to be confronted by someone who wants to actually do something about you having the Heinous flag :)
You don't have to worry about being flagged as anything in good or neutral areas. If you are in an evil hex and the hex leadership says killing someone who has a heinous flag is against the law, then you still have the criminal flag in that settlement. At the very least, if a dogooder were to go into the evil settlement to even see the heinous flag, then they would likely be gaining the trespasser flag before the fight even begun.
And if the necromancer or slaver can't deal with the forces of good trying to kill them in their own homes and in the midst of like minded individuals, then that's just a risk of the profession.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
Do you actually plan on playing an evil character or only good? I'm looking at this holistically and the system is very biased towards good players.
I have no issues with the flags that control pvp, only the heinous flag since it is unrelated to pvp other than it makes it okay for someone to pk you without retaliation.
If someone raises undead or takes slaves in a good zone then I have no qualms about being flagged since this would go against the ethical code of the area. You shouldn't be flagged in an area where the ethics encourage or are indifferent to that type of behavior.
This is excellent! I am very new here, and found PFO just after the Kickstarter ended. Grats on that by the way, after what I have seen here that is very good news to me!
From the blog post, I really love this part: "In Pathfinder Online, Player vs. Player combat is meant to be the major source of conflict: Defending your resources from enemy players will be a bigger challenge than defending them against AI creatures."
I am a huge fan of meaningful PvP, as I started with UO (pre-Trammel), and went to Daoc and even Shadowbane. Seriously, some of the highest highs and lowest lows in any MMO for me has been the exhilaration of PvP combat. Shadowbane was a tremendous sand-box (in theory, if not in technology) that I was sad to leave behind. And Daoc had incredible atmosphere - everything is better when death hangs over your head...
My question is this: will Player characters be able to assist in the security and well being of certain NPC settlements. For example, will an elf PC be able to patrol the borders of Kyonin (or some similar settlement that will be in the game at some point) without being flagged? How do NPC settlements interact with Players; will there be some kind of faction gain or citizenship preference?
From a roleplay perspective, it would be great if a player who claimed to be born in a certain area or who had a certain heritage could act on that. Hopefully this made sense!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just seems a little lopsided to an Evil character. Good characters don't get flagged for doing good things. While I understand the other flags are to control pvp, raising undead and slavery just makes it so you can kill an evil character in an area that says raising undead and slavery are okay without repercussions. So you can RPK evil characters in evil areas without having to worry about being flagged yourself.If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?I don't see why you wouldn't. The benefit of your hex/settlement being Evil is that you're much less likely to be confronted by someone who wants to actually do something about you having the Heinous flag :)
You don't have to worry about being flagged as anything in good or neutral areas. If you are in an evil hex and the hex leadership says killing someone who has a heinous flag is against the law, then you still have the criminal flag in that settlement. At the very least, if a dogooder were to go into the evil settlement to even see the heinous flag, then they would likely be gaining the trespasser flag before the fight even begun.
And if the necromancer or slaver can't deal with the forces of good trying to kill them in their own homes and in the midst of like minded individuals, then that's just a risk of the profession.
Then you don't even need the heinous flag, only the criminal flag which would cover the use of raising the undead, slaves, or other heinous crimes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your hex is evil run by an evil settlement will you still receive the heinous flag for raising the undead or using slaves?Aside from which surely an Evil player in an Evil company would be pleased to see this flag. It is like a medal of honor for an evil player.
I don't see it that way, I wouldn't want that flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
I'd actually disagree you can be civilized and have slave labor and use undead. Evil does not make you uncivilized just well evil.
In neutral or evil territories its entirely possible that such actions would be considered acceptable.
I did notice its creating not summoning or controlling undead which is considered heinous. So as long as you don't actively create the undead and instead simply control or summon it you won't get tagged.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
I'd actually disagree you can be civilized and have slave labor and use undead. Evil does not make you uncivilized just well evil.
In neutral or evil territories its entirely possible that such actions would be considered acceptable.
I did notice its creating not summoning or controlling undead which is considered heinous. So as long as you don't actively create the undead and instead simply control or summon it you won't get tagged.
The River Kingdoms have a different position on the matter than the rest of the world.
Casting detect evil in an evil hex should give a good character a heinous flag. In a neutral hex there should be no heinous flagging.
I like this. Are there plans to have hexes with alignments, and how will that work? I can see how both NPC and Player settlements can be aligned. Does that mean a hex is evil because of the rules/laws of the ruling settlement, or is it just declared evil-ground?
By this token, you should not be able to summon "good" aligned beings without receiving a flag, in an "evil" hex.
The alignment issue is complicated...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
I'd actually disagree you can be civilized and have slave labor and use undead. Evil does not make you uncivilized just well evil.
In neutral or evil territories its entirely possible that such actions would be considered acceptable.
I did notice its creating not summoning or controlling undead which is considered heinous. So as long as you don't actively create the undead and instead simply control or summon it you won't get tagged.
The River Kingdoms have a different position on the matter than the rest of the world.
According to that site, failure to complete a contract "Oath Breaking" would be considered a heinous crime and you would be killed on site.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally dislike the fact that i will be forced to participate in PVP. At this time it looks like i will use my 4 free months and than leave the game. The designers insist on forcing pvp on people that dislike it, Guess they just want to please the fps players that only want pvp. any game without areas that are none pvp will not be a game i enjoy playing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Areas that say raising undead and slavery are okay have declared themselves opposed to the entire civilized River Kingdoms. You can RPK evil characters who reside there because you are at war with them, because everyone is at war with them.
It's the evil characters who want to ply their undead-raising and slave-holding ways where they are prohibited that are affected.
I'd actually disagree you can be civilized and have slave labor and use undead. Evil does not make you uncivilized just well evil.
In neutral or evil territories its entirely possible that such actions would be considered acceptable.
I did notice its creating not summoning or controlling undead which is considered heinous. So as long as you don't actively create the undead and instead simply control or summon it you won't get tagged.
The River Kingdoms have a different position on the matter than the rest of the world.
Abomination and uncivilized are two entirely different things.
How the River Kingdoms feel and how a player settlement feels are two entirely different things.If you are creating a truely sand box game players need to be able to decide for themselves what they consider heinous inside thier own settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Abomination and uncivilized are two entirely different things.
How the River Kingdoms feel and how a player settlement feels are two entirely different things.If you are creating a truely sand box game players need to be able to decide for themselves what they consider heinous inside thier own settlements.
Exactly. Otherwise, the laws of the land have already been dictated and is pointless for anyone to create an evil settlement. Creating an environment where people will not want to play evil reduces the amount of opposition in the game. If everyone was on the same team the game would be very boring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup an evil settlement should be able to say
Raising undead, thats ok here.
pillaging and murder, thats ok here.
For those people that want to play evil, if they can take over an hex and turn it evil...well thats on them. If the forces of good want to push back the threat of evil they can, slowly, one hex at a time.
At the same time in an evil hex, if a bunch of do gooders come in and start attacking evil folks, well they shouldnt get any flags just like the evil people (provided the people in charge say all out pvp is ok).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Utterly fantastic!
It's also very nice to have confirmation that raising undead is still an "incredibly evil" act :)
If you are neutral and raise undead, it should not be considered an evil act. Disturbing a grave is not inherently evil, especially if your religion does not consider it to be so. Undead can be used for lots of good reasons, and while the undead themselves should share your alignment they should not be considered innately evil.
I would love to have a skeletal mining crew for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Utterly fantastic!
It's also very nice to have confirmation that raising undead is still an "incredibly evil" act :)
If you are neutral and raise undead, it should not be considered an evil act. Disturbing a grave is not inherently evil, especially if your religion does not consider it to be so. Undead can be used for lots of good reasons, and while the undead themselves should share your alignment they should not be considered innately evil.
I would love to have a skeletal mining crew for example.
Raising Undead is evil in Pathfinder it goes back and forth in D&D over evilness of the act. I think in 3.0 it was Neutral and there were undead of all alignments especially in Forgotten Realms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For once, I agree with Richter Bones. I really don't want to see a system biased towards one side of the alignment scale. This IS coming from someone who role played a Lawful Evil character for a very long time, but I planned to most likely play LN in PFO. I still want to see equal treatment on both sides.
For once, I agree with Richter Bones. I really don't want to see a system biased towards one side of the alignment scale. This IS coming from someone who role played a Lawful Evil character for a very long time, but I planned to most likely play LN in PFO. I still want to see equal treatment on both sides.
Hopefully evil settlements will be able to set their own laws, like outlawing any tresspass by "good" characters, because it does seem pretty slanted against evil alignments at the moment. I'm planning on playing a N character, the game however, needs a mix of alignments to really be fun.
I don't get why they used slavery as an example of a heinous act. It's not like you can take slaves in the game, so it seems odd to use it as an example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally dislike the fact that i will be forced to participate in PVP. At this time it looks like i will use my 4 free months and than leave the game. The designers insist on forcing pvp on people that dislike it, Guess they just want to please the fps players that only want pvp. any game without areas that are none pvp will not be a game i enjoy playing.
Hopefully you can use that four months with at least an open mind. We are each of us human, and thus can err. It is within the realm of the possible that PvP can be done in a way you will find palatable. You might even find a way to enjoy it.
So much of any game experience is conditioned by those you play with, yet the environment the developer provides is the context of that enjoyment.
Bowling is player versus player when you think about it. So is baseball. If PvP is done right it might be that you discover it isn't in itself bad. What is bad are some of the people who have some weird need to evoke the worst in everyone else.
That kind of game-ruining is anathema to the design. They intend it shall have as little impact as possible.
Just liberate yourself from your prejudgements and try the game willing to be convinced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't get why they used slavery as an example of a heinous act. It's not like you can take slaves in the game, so it seems odd to use it as an example.
I think it will be an NPC thing. For example, as a settlement leader, you have the option to build new buildings. You can probably do that at a significant discount if you take slaves from surrounding areas. This will probably set off a lack of productivity in neighboring hexes as the slaves you take used to be free workers in those settlements. There will then be complaints from the locals in those settlements, leading to war parties by players who live in those settlements to try to get them back to get their own productions schedules back to normal. And you know, slavery is an abomination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I personally dislike the fact that i will be forced to participate in PVP.
I believe they can make some professions into fun and meaningful mini-games. Imagine something like farmville in PFO.
Another radical change would be to not have an auction house in PFO. Player merchants or shop owners would be able to barter, sell and trade locally in their town to increase player to player interaction. There will be plenty to do without participating in pvp.Staying in a high security town should prevent you encountering any pvp.
Catering to different play styles, and making things fun will only help the game.
I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LG
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
My open mind ended when i read the developers are in favor of allowing other players to steal items i have gathered. i do not have alot of time to play games, so when i do get to relax a bit i do not want to waste my time doing things in a game just to have someone else steal it.
Unless they change it they have lost my support for this game. Well at least i'll get the print copy.
Personnally i cannot beleive the developers wish to alienate any paying customers but apparantly they do. So therefore i will take the ks donation as i just bought the books and minis and go elsewhere taking my friends with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Being,
My open mind ended when i read the developers are in favor of allowing other players to steal items i have gathered. i do not have alot of time to play games, so when i do get to relax a bit i do not want to waste my time doing things in a game just to have someone else steal it.
Unless they change it they have lost my support for this game. Well at least i'll get the print copy.
Personnally i cannot beleive the developers wish to alienate any paying customers but apparantly they do. So therefore i will take the ks donation as i just bought the books and minis and go elsewhere taking my friends with me.
This isn't something they just announced today. We've known it would be this way for months.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Utterly fantastic!
It's also very nice to have confirmation that raising undead is still an "incredibly evil" act :)
If you are neutral and raise undead, it should not be considered an evil act. Disturbing a grave is not inherently evil, especially if your religion does not consider it to be so. Undead can be used for lots of good reasons, and while the undead themselves should share your alignment they should not be considered innately evil.
I would love to have a skeletal mining crew for example.
Animate Dead and its ilk all carry the Evil descriptor. That means they are defined as evil, and do effect people's alignment. That is how the Pantheon of Golarion feels about it, and mortals disagreeing doesn't change that fact.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LGThere are evil variants of Paladins.
But all Paladins are lawful. It makes no sense at all in terms of the fluff to have a chaotic Paladin.
Er, depends on what you mean by Paladins.
3.5 had variants for CG, LE, and CE.I believe there was a variant or prestige class that allowed for grey area into LN or NG, though I may be misremembering.
Pathfinder's Anti-Paladin is Chaotic Evil, not lawful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LGThere are evil variants of Paladins.
But all Paladins are lawful. It makes no sense at all in terms of the fluff to have a chaotic Paladin.
Er, depends on what you mean by Paladins.
3.5 had variants for CG, LE, and CE.
I believe there was a variant or prestige class that allowed for grey area into LN or NG, though I may be misremembering.Pathfinder's Anti-Paladin is Chaotic Evil, not lawful.
Then there was the 4e avenger that was mostly just a chaotic paladin IIRC. I don't remember most 4e though, that game group fell apart around the time the essentials came out.
I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LGThere are evil variants of Paladins.
But all Paladins are lawful. It makes no sense at all in terms of the fluff to have a chaotic Paladin.
Yea, I guess you have a point. Cavaliers can be CG right? Just want to know because I want to have a knight type character that is CG. Also, regarding the blog post I have a question: From what they said, it sounds like the only people who will be flagged are "evil" people. If I am (lets say) a paladin and I see a necromancer who is minding his own business walking down a road and I jump out and attack him (because he is evil and I am a freakin paladin) I would then get flagged as an attacker (right?) then once he is dead I would be flagged as a criminal? Or am I just missing the obvious which is "good guys would not attack people randomly, even if they are evil"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yea, I guess you have a point. Cavaliers can be CG right? Just want to know because I want to have a knight type character that is CG. Also, regarding the blog post I have a question: From what they said, it sounds like the only people who will be flagged are "evil" people. If I am (lets say) a paladin and I see a necromancer who is minding his own business walking down a road and I jump out and attack him (because he is evil and I am a freakin paladin) I would then get flagged as an attacker (right?) then once he is dead I would be flagged as a criminal? Or am I just missing the obvious which is "good guys would not attack people randomly, even if they are evil"?I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LGThere are evil variants of Paladins.
But all Paladins are lawful. It makes no sense at all in terms of the fluff to have a chaotic Paladin.
Pathfinder also has Lawful Paladins called Hell knights.
They get nice smite chaos and Detect Chaos abilities..It also has Chaotic Evil Antipaladins.
The closest it has to Chaotic Good Paladins is a Prestige class for followers of the Drunken God. Also Holy Avengers...