Fiendish Tyrannasaurus

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Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Quandary wrote:

Heinous Flag is not dependent on the mores of the owners of a hex.

The owners of a hex can make illegal/legal whatever behavior they want... thru LAWS. Heinous is beyond that.
Slavery would continue to be a Heinous-triggering act regardless of if where you do it it is legal or not.
Remember, Heinous is 'Super Evil', and Good/Evil are not subjective cultural preferences in Pathfinder, but Cosmological Forces that one can't evade or alter. In PFO, Slavery and Undead-Creation ARE Evil and Heinous, whatever one thinks about them (i.e. even if they are 'perfectly acceptable behavior' legally and within the norms of a settlement, they still are Heinous, and that settlement itself will be strongly pushed towards Heinous because of it's sponsorship of Slavery).

The question remains whether there is any indicator/discriminator so that settlements can treat Slavery-Heinous differently from Necromancy-Heinous, or whether a settlement that wants Slavery-Heinous to be A-OK (people with this flag are still under protection of the law vs. being attacked unprovoked by others) must necessarily also treat Necromancy-Heinous the same, because there is no mechanical means to discriminate between those.

There are places in Golarion where both are not Heinous so when they introduce those areas into the game what then?

There are places in Golarion where being a Cleric, Paladin or follower of particular gods is considered Heinous what do you do when they are introduced into the game.

Followers of Asmodeus would not consider Slavery to be a Heinous act should they be able to get the benefits of murdering people who have the Heinous flag for being Slavers?

The Heinous flag is an extremely subjective thing at the current time its just the developers inflicting thier morality or more likely worry about being condemned by groups who would find the behavior offensive.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:
Decorus wrote:
Valandur wrote:

So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Its a haven for Slavers.
As in its a Town where slavery should not earn a heinous flag at all, because they don't give a crap about the River Kingdoms dislike of slavery.
Necromancy is not the same as slavery.
It is how ever a town where bandits should earn the heinous flag and be killed on sight given the large contingent of Hell Knights who like to execute people for such crimes.
I could well be wrong, but I think that even if Ft. Inevitable condones slavery and has it written into its laws, holders of slaves would still get the heinous flag, they just wouldn't be attacked simply for having it. Hence my comment about Necromancers being able to do business within the fort. They just couldn't bring their undead minions along with them.

Why would they get the Heinous Flag the people who live in the Fortress consider slavery to be perfectly acceptable behavior. They have an issue with kidnapping people and turning them into slaves, not with owning or using slaves. People outside may or may not like it, but inside that fortress town its socially acceptable behavior thus negating and eliminating the Heinous flag.

How ever banditry is socially unacceptable behavior and as such should earn a heinous flag while performed in that area.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Valandur wrote:

So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Its a haven for Slavers.
As in its a Town where slavery should not earn a heinous flag at all, because they don't give a crap about the River Kingdoms dislike of slavery.
Necromancy is not the same as slavery.
It is how ever a town where bandits should earn the heinous flag and be killed on sight given the large contingent of Hell Knights who like to execute people for such crimes.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Then why is Aroden dead?
He wasn't supposed to die.
She knew he was going to die.
She let him die.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

I'm the god of death my whole job is to make sure that when people die they go where they are supposed to be. Its my entire being.

Does it make sense at all that people who die come back to life, because I wake up one morning and go nope I'm not doing it anymore. I'm just going to let people go back to living despite having been killed. I completely and totally hate immortality and strongly believe when people die thats it the end no second chances.

Its pretty game breaking in the setting.

Pharasma is all for everything dies. Pharasma isn't good its her job to make sure everything that dies goes where its supposed.
She's all for Groetus destroying reality, because as the God of Death its what she is.

Her not doing what gives her existence would be like gravity suddenly deciding it hates being down all the time and deciding everything now goes up.

Her church would split up. Entire groups of them would go mad and start doing everything possible to make damn sure these people who don't stay dead do stay dead. Dogs and cats sleeping together end of the world type stuff would begin happening.

Then some dude would step in and Kill Pharasma and replace her with someone that would actually do the job before the entire universe came to an end.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

In the RPG while its possible to play a glass canon its not the best or most effective use of a Wizard.

Wizards are all about the buffing and the debuffing rather then damage. Mathmatically Damage in Pathfinder makes it so its just plain ineffective to be a glass canon you are far better off being a two handed fighter, a paladin or a Bow specialist ranger/fighter. That being said its just as difficult to play a mage as a defensive caster as it is to play a glass canon. It just doesn't work as the math refuses to make it work. As levels go up AC means less and less as the bonuses to hit grow higher and higher. Wizards work far better as jack of all trades.

Dresdan is a straight up thug he is an excellent fighter and can take quite a bit of a beating and keep on going in the pulp noir kind of way.

Divination in Pathfinder online is actually an area where not being the pen and paper game can be useful.

1. Using it to find things.

Lets say you need a particular component for crafting your uber blade of death. So you use divination which tells you what can give you the item and where the closest one is currently located at.

2.Scrying is your friend.

Want to know whats in a dungeon well the arcane eye that acts like a remote camera can take you on a guided tour. Also handy for mapping areas without ever leaving your settlement.

3. Looting.

Divination would be awesome for finding out what chance an item has for dropping or even entire loot tables for monsters and chests. Possibly even allowing you to pick what drops or increasing the chance that something will drop.

4. Finding the Path...

Hate having to spend hours hunting for the way to get to that single spot on the map? What if you could use magic to pick a location and then voila a magic compass shows you the way...

5. Hate boss fights?
How much more fun would it be if you could know exactly where and when to stand in the proper spot?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:

This was inspired by the "If I Had a Hammer" thread, but I think this could be a topic of its own.

Some have concerns about game mechanics producing unrealistic situations, but I think realism is relative to the setting. Magic in general is unrealistic, but in fantasy you can still aim for internal consistency or verisimilitude. GW seems to be building the fiction in such a way that necessary MMO mechanics are explained by something in the setting.

I guess the biggest example is character death. An MMO that includes PvP and permanent character death is probably unmarketable. Most of a decade before LotRO came out, Sierra had the license to produce Middle Earth Online and were going to try permadeath. That linked story does indicate that there were management problems which ended up killing the game, but the permadeath aspect is also called out as being "crazy". GW has worked repeated player resurrection into their fiction by saying that PCs are marked by the goddess Pharasma.

It seems that what looks like breaks in the story for game mechanic needs may actually have an in-story cause. They don't completely collapse the fourth wall, but there's much less need to overlook things that would breach it in a regular PFRPG game.

Maybe the souls chosen for repeated resurrection by Pharasma also have abilities granted by other deities, like seeing an item's properties just by examining it.

Maybe we're all being trained to fight in a coming apocalypse whenever Groetus decides to make its move? Our little corner of the RK could be a sort of Highlander-meets-Valhalla training ground preparing an army to defend our material plane reality from Entropy itself.

Pharasma letting any soul come back after dying pretty much breaks the setting.

Her Job and Existence are solely designed around not allowing this to happen. She does not like Immortality for this very reason. She would not just allow people to come back from the dead as it violates her reason for being.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Decorus wrote:

Where are you safe?

Answer Nowhere.

Wrong.

You are safe in necromancy-friendly settlements, which can mark killing someone with the Heinous flag as a crime. You are also safe alone (as safe as you can be when alone, of course), and at war (again, as safe as you'd be at war regardless of necromancy). People who grief you in the settlement get killed by the Enforcers. People who kill you when you're at war are either enemies (common hazard for anybody), profiteers (another hazard for anybody), or teammates. In the latter case, they get kicked out and possibly killed by the rest of the alliance.

So I'm safe getting killed?

How is that safe?

So essentially by your own admission Heinous flag = Free pass on griefing...

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Actually I prefer Cruoromancers.
Honestly Prestige classes are better off being replaced with Archtypes these days which is a better system.

Bloatmages how ever need to be in the game...
They remind me of the Harkonins of Dune.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Imbicatus wrote:
Proxima Sin wrote:


That last part has me slightly hopeful and half depressed at the same time because while there's not an overabundance of bare skin in their art, they still seem to sex up the females most of the time which is the thing I want to avoid as a prerequisite for going into battle. Seriously what about sexually boring that's just an interesting design?
Seelah, Kyra, and Lini aren't very sexual at all. Almost no skin showing, and nothing is form-fitting in any of them. The option should be there if you just want to be functional and not sexy.

Umm you need to pay more attention...

All three of them have obvious breasts.
Lini has lines designed specificly to draw your eyes to them.
She's also incredibly perky in that particular area and her armor especially the breastplate is form fitting...

Seelah isn't quite so endowed, but man are they big also the bronze wings with silver etching does an excellent job of making them stand out...

Kyra you can see them, but they aren't as accentuated the way the other two are. Of course given how she is from a middle eastern culture the amount of shown skin would be scandalous....

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

The problem is the Neutral PvP flag
stacking buff for increased encumberance and movement speed.
Say hello to my lil friend the classic DAOC Bard Gank squad of Albion...

Essentially Albion who originally was at a horrible disadvantage against the other factions discovered:
1. Speed rules
2. Speed rules
3. See rules 1 and 2

Basically the concept was small groups of Albion players would grab a bard he'd play his high speed group buff and they would run right into the middle of groups all attack the same poor bastard and run away at high speed. Then rinse and repeat. Sometimes there would be two or three groups of people doing this one after the other coming from different directions. It was fun then we improved on the concept with gank squads of 1 bard and everyone else a caster so we'd run in hit the entire group with fireball equivalent at point blank and then run away.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Two words
Bloat mage

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Lee Hammock wrote:
Sorry, haven't read the whole topic, but overall we are shooting for more realistic armor with actual coverage for both sexes. We're sticking with the overall aesthetic of Wayne Reynolds' art, so lots of coverage, pouches, layers, etc. We are not fans of stripper armor. More concept art and basic models and such will be coming out in the next few weeks.
Awesome! So cloth wearers like Seoni or Sajan have the ability to show some skin at the cost of no protection, but armor wearers will actually be covered, with some minor overlap for light armor wearer like Amiri. Exactly what I was looking for.

Umm if by covered you mean boob windows armor that draws your eyes to boobs and extremely sexy outfits then yes.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Ludy, can you stop acting like necromancers are going to be constantly crippled? It just isn't true. They are endangered for the duration of their undead's existence. I have played many necromancers who never animated so much as a dead housefly.

If you want to animate undead, do it where you're safe. But you otherwise have nothing to worry about.

Where are you safe?

Answer Nowhere.

I play Star Wars Old Republic.
I have seen jerks on both sides deliberately walk into the aoe of people fighting to flag people so they can gank them while they are minding thier own buisness trying to pve. I have seen them heal the mobs you are fighting that are faction based so they can deliberately kill you while you aren't flagged. I have seen people also act with respect and leave them alone. In most pvp games I've played in I have seen people devolve to the lowest common jerk because they think its cool.

Also you might want to read the post.

Heinous
The character has committed an act that is universally viewed as evil, such as raising and controlling undead, using slaves to build structures or gather resources, etc.

The Heinous flag lasts one minute beyond the duration of the deed unless the character does something to get it again before the duration runs out. Characters using undead for example will have the Heinous flag the entire time they are using undead.

You summon or control undead you have the heinous flag for as long as you have them.

Now as for your comment we aren't playing in the Kingdom of Man.
So you are absolutely convinced the game will never expand beyond the River Kingdoms?

The flag should not exist.
Its bad for the game.
Its a come kill me for fluff text open permission to gank people, punishment for people doing things the game's developers don't like.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:

Really cannot see the issue.

You are heinous for 1 minute after creating undead or stealing slaves from the local settlement? So what ?

No you are heinous for as long as you have slaves.

You are heinous for as long as you are controlling undead.

Basically I'm wondering around in a dungeon find a room of skeletons use control undead voila as long as I control those undead I have the Heinous Flag. Which means anyone in the party with me can now kill me without losing rep.

I leave the dungeon for as long as I was controlling the Undead I have the Heinous flag anyone who sees me can run up to me and kill me without losing rep.

Now your settlement uses slave labor well guess what the person who controls those buildings using the Slave Labor has the heinous flag until they finish what ever they are producing. He will then continue to have the Heinous flag for a period of time equal to the time his slave production was working.

Kobold so your okay with Cheliax giving any priest of a chaotic diety Villain for as long as they are in there territory?

You good with the Kingdom of Man giving all Priests, Oracles, Paladins and worshipers of Dieties the Villain Flag for as long as your in thier territory?

You don't mind that the end result of having the flag in the game will be the long term application of Villain just for entering a Countries Territory?

Thats what I object to.

The flag shouldn't exist and in the long term will destroy the game.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Commoner might be Strength/Dex based skills.
Expert will probably be intelligence based.
Aristocrat will likely be Charisma based.

So something tells me Bards Priests Sorcs and Paladins will all be Aristocrats.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Mercy wrote:
It would be nice to game is a persistent world where not every animal you encountered in the wildness was a blood thirsty killer. High concentration of hostile mobs is great for level grinding, but for immersion purposes I would love to have the fauna be more diverse in nature and aggression. And a little breathing room when traveling cross country to not facepull a bear, boar, wolf or giant rat every 10 feet.

I'm pretty sure animal handling will be a big boon for avoiding combat with random wild animals. (Possibly even assisting with mounts).

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Why do I have the feeling that the Seventh Veil will be upkeeping 5 or 6 training halls at the same time in thier settlement?

The price for training can easily be dealt with by price fixing.
Basically the Guilds get together once a month and set the prices for members, allies and nonmembers for skills. Given how training slots will be precious commodities it would be extremely easy to fix the prices for training of skills.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
IronVanguard wrote:
It's entirely possible Golarion Online would be mildly more accurate...
Well, in the beginning, River Kingdoms Online might be more accurate. After many years, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see map areas added that aren't even on Golarion.

Except the Heinous flag would be extremely difficult to have.

Cheliax
Instant Villain for following a chaotic god.
Slavery and Necromancy are fine.

Nidal
Anyone who doesn't worship Zon Instant Heinous flag
Human Sacrifice = A okay...

Rahadom
Paladins Priests Oracles = instant permanent Villain Flag...
Get the picture?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:

Permadeath has no place in PFO. There is a lore reason for everyone to be constantly coming back from the dead. There are no levels, and skill training is based on Time and Achievements, not XP. Traditional iron-man modes as seen from Baldur's Gate or in other MMOs are irrelevant as there is no max level. If you delete and recreate a character every time you die in PFO then you will be eternally the equivalent of level one. The limited PvE that would be safe for you to fight without dieing will not be adequate to give enough power to face player who do not play by your rules and will be more powerful than you and have better gear than you. If you have an icon or gold name saying you've never died, then those players will make it a mission to kill you, reputation be dammed.

If you want to play a marketeer or crafter who never leaves the starter town you may be able to avoid dieing. But hiding in safety doesn't sound like iron-man mode to me.

Except the lore reason pretty much goes against everything Pharasma believes in, but thats besides the point.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
GrumpyMel basically summed it up. It's perfectly possible for a settlement to be pro-necromancer and anti-paladin. But the default setting has people who loath slavery and necromancy, and you have to be willing to deal with that "prejudice" whenever you leave the safety of your settlement.

Except the rules as set currently prove just the opposite.

The Heinous flag serves no function or purpose other then for the Game Designers to designate groups of people to be griefed with little or no consequences for that action.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:

@Decorus,

I'd just like to point out that the Heinous flag does not supercede the laws availble in individual PC controled hexes. It's perfectly possible for a PC settlement to impose the Criminal flag on anyone who attacks a person flagged as Heinous... which would be the same penalty applied to attacking a person without the flag.

Where it differs is in uncontrolled territory or npc controled territory...although it's also entirely possible for individual NPC settlements to have differing laws against it.

So I think you are basicaly covered in that regard.

I don't neccesarly like the way GW has used or setup the Alignment/Flag mechanics as I think they are pretty clunky and won't work very well...and mostly aren't playing the role in PFO that they really were intended for Pathfinder itself.

That aside, I don't think it's very off-base to consider anyone raising undead as pretty much a legitimate target for Paladins and Good Clerics.
The problem is that they don't have a way of really understanding context in conflicts and other alignment related activities.

For example, 1 person attacking and killing another is blanketly judged a Chaotic and Evil action (and one which causes reputation loss as well). However when you consider that there are "Good" Gods who consider the creation of undead as anathema, logicaly they aren't going to be displeased with followers of thiers who actively fight those who create undead or consider those followers Chaotic and Evil for doing so.

Also consider that there are individuals who follow a Lawfull Evil alignment where the sanctity of life is not of any great concern to them. If the followers of Asmodeus encountered the followers of Rovagug (a natural enemy) skulking about the edges of thier territory it would be a rather natural reaction for the followers of Asmodeus to attack and slay the followers of Rovagug. However the game would rule this not just an Evil action but a Chaotic one that costs reputation....even though logicaly one wouldn't expect...

Your outside of a settlement adventuring.

No laws protecting you.
Instant Gankfest.

Your in a war.
Your own allies can kill you if they want.
Instant Gankfest.

Chaotic Evil settlement
No laws
Anyone walking down the street can gank you with zero reputation loss.

So essentially your point is a waste of time.

So Kobold when every Priest and Paladin gets the villain flag permanently for walking into the wrong place in Golarian you will be okay with that?

I mean its just flavor, because Priests Oracles and Paladins are executed on sight in this particular country...

Wanna play a priest of CC oh wait your group wants to go to Cheliax for some adventuring oops instant villain flag for you since its "flavor"...

How do all these people know what your doing?
Is there some magic that instantly informs people your doing bad things?
Do the gods strike you down with lightning?

Some one is running a slavery operation.
He has no slaves with him.
Its been going on for days.
He is miles away eating breakfast in a tavern.
But voila he's permanently flagged villain.
So Paladin can walk right up to him and murder him in cold blood with zero proof that he is doing anything remotely wrong..

I have a problem with this.
Honestly I have a problem with flavor mandated flags.
Because if the game expands it will introduce entire areas where players will be flagged heinous merely for walking into the area having done nothing wrong.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Quandary wrote:

I think aside from truly Alignment/Class-specific things (LG:Pally,C:Barb,E:Necro), the main point of Chaotic detriments re: training structures was that they have a higher maintenance cost like all settlement maintenance does for Chaotic settlements (due to poorer oversight or governance, i.e. Chaoticness). Whether they do so at a higher cost in their own settlement, or pay others at a higher cost to use their training structures really results in the same thing: higher costs, albeit one is going to another group (maybe their ally) and one is just going back to the server. The whole point of Chaotic alignment is that you did some things that Lawful types would not have done... presumably at least some of things resulted in $$$ that the Lawful type would not have gained, so at least potentially it all equals out. (EDIT: I believe the Chaotic-only Bandit PVP flag lets you loot more stuff than normal, and that still applies in 'Wars' as well as with the 'Stand and Deliver' mechanic)

@Tigari: The game seems structured around training to advance 'class abilities', not just new things you can magically do after killing so many monsters/people. If you or your group don't own your own training centers, then yes, you will have to arrange with the people who do run training centers on how to use them. Perhaps paying them (they do have a cost to maintain, so this is reasonable), perhaps arranging other deals.
From the blog, it seems certain that GW is forseeing settlements to 'sell' their training capabilities, and in fact forsees settlements to enter alliances with each other, to be able to take care of training resources that they do not all have themselves (which makes sense, instead of all replicated the same skill training, several small settlements can specialize and access the entire pool of training resources between all their allies).

Sigh Necromancers are not evil.

They can be any alignment even lawful good.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I disagree. If we disregard all aspects of the River Kingdoms, why even bother playing in Golarion? The setting is always going to be a part of the game, player-driven or not.

So the game is never going to expand beyond the River Kingdoms?

The players will not have any meaningful interaction with the setting.

The problem with this is the River Kingdoms is this:
My hex, My People, My rules.
My entire settlement is from Osirion or Cheliax which have entirely different rules beliefs. No people from the so called River Kingdoms live in my Settlement.

We expand the game oh no its Heinous in Osirion to use Necromancy now?

In Golarion slavery, Necromancy, demon summoning are all valid options in other parts of the world.

The Heinous flag prevents those areas from ever being effectively entered into the game.

I mean how would you feel if you got the Heinous flag for worshipping any diety at all?

Congratulations all Paladins, Clerics and Oracles are now Heinous Flagged good luck god speed your permanently villains and anyone can kill you with zero rep loss.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

How many champions do you know who walk up to people and murder them without provocation for actions they can't see?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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1. Being a Necromancer does not equal evil
Its entirely possible to command undead without being evil or commiting a villainous action.
2. This is supposed to be a Sandbox game meaning Player > River Kingdoms
3. No group deserves to have a flag which makes them free kills for anyone.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

The problem with the Heinous flag is anyone can kill you without penalty as long as you have the flag. In other words you could be walking around town and anyone who sees you gets a free pass to murder you in the street.

Instant griefing of a permanent nature as long as you have the flag with the game designer's blessing.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:
Decorus wrote:

Actually heinous flag gives everyone who sees you carte blanche to kill you with zero repercussions good, evil, lawful, chaotic or neutral. So essentially its a hey come grief me flag.

Now to dispel some myths.
1. Necromancers can control undead as a class ability like Priests.
2. Necromancers can summon undead using monster summoning spells.
3. Necromancers can control undead using spells as well.

There is absolutely no reason any of the above should give you the heinous flag.

Well, number 1 and 3 are in the core rulebook, but I didn't find number 2 in there. Where is it from?

Skeleton Summoner feat. (Ultimate Magic)

Adds Skeletons to your Summon Monster spells and 1/day you can summon a skeletal version of a monster on the list.

Shadow Dancers can also summon Shadows as a class ability which is a form of undead.

Also the Undead Lord has a Skeleton Companion, basically a permanent Skeleton pet which would permanently make them Villains and thus largely unplayable.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Actually heinous flag gives everyone who sees you carte blanche to kill you with zero repercussions good, evil, lawful, chaotic or neutral. So essentially its a hey come grief me flag.

Now to dispel some myths.
1. Necromancers can control undead as a class ability like Priests.
2. Necromancers can summon undead using monster summoning spells.
3. Necromancers can control undead using spells as well.

There is absolutely no reason any of the above should give you the heinous flag.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Basically as it stands Heinous/Villain flag = Game Designers thumbs up on griefing people for playing in a way they don't like.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Dragon Steaks in Black Pepper Sauce.
Chilled Monkey Goblin Brains.
Stuffed Python
Roast Boar
Dinosaur Stew

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Landon Winkler wrote:
Richter Bones wrote:

I think of this game as a really cool psychosocial experiment. My hypothesis is that if you give positive punishment (flagging) to someone who uses undead and offer no types of reinforcements, then all players will gravitate towards more rewarding types of game play.

Which brings me to: if no players use undead then player created undead cease to exist and it is illogical to have player created undead.

There may not be player created undead, depending on the Crowdforging, so Goblinworks may be way ahead of us :)

But my hypothesis is that people who are flagging already will use undead if they're available. If you're already an Assassin or an Outlaw, it doesn't matter at all that you roll up with some zombies in tow.

And if you're at war? Unless there are a bunch of unaligned spectators, everybody there is either your ally or getting ready to kill you anyway. Might as well bring a ghoul along, they'll have plenty to eat when you're done.

Furthermore, I'd be shocked if there weren't people specifically trying to stay flagged villain at all times. Because what better way is there to prove you're a badass than strolling into a good settlement with your villain flag flying proudly and seeing if they have any crusaders worthy of the name?

Cheers!
Landon

What happens if your just a dude with the traveler flag who isn't evil and uses found undead as a source of cheap labor and to prevent your friends and comrades from being killed in war?

Why should you get the heinous flag?

Pharasma hates undead, because its a violation of her ethos.
To her its just as much an abomination as being immortal.
Her job is to bring the dead to the afterlife they deserve.
Honestly every character in the MMO would be on her naughty list, because they won't stay dead.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Enlight_Bystand wrote:


Except that from we've seen if you've got the heinous tag, anyone will be able to attack, not just the good people. So you'd have one player raising the dead in the middle of Urgathoaville, and the guy next door who is holding a grudge decides to take him on, and the scenario is technically 'how dare you raise the dead - prepare to die under the claws of my zombie minions...
It will be possible to make illegal the killing of Heinous characters in your settlement, just FYI.

As much as I would love to do that if the things that flag you as Heinous have no harmful effects on other players how would I justify that as a NG town in terms of RP? Plus I want a paladin to be able to kill a necromancer who's raising undead in our territory right in front of them. I just don't want them to be able to kill someone because they raised 100 undead in their own hex this morning.

Now if raising those undead caused their neighbors to have to fight off an undead infestation, and all their slaves were stolen from other player's commoner pools... now I want them flagged in my hex. As makes sense for a neutral-good town.

I fully intend to have a necromancer who crafts and uses undead labor to do so and to defend his settlement in times of war. I have zero intentions of creating undead. I just plan on taking control of undead I find in my settlements area and putting them to a postive work where they do not harm living people. (unless some idiot wanders into my no tresspassing harvesting and production camps)

How ever if I gain the heinous flag while actively defending my settlement by using undead and am now open to attack from any idiot its pretty unfair to me. If some lawful stupid, chaotic stupid or neutral stupid attacks me while I'm actively unleashing my undead horde on the evil bastards who went to war with my settlement.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Murael wrote:

"Anyone may kill a Heinous character without fearing >>REPUTATION<< or alignment loss."

Wat.

So I'm basically treated the same a a griefer just for using the undead. Necromancy better be GROSSLY OP if this is going to make it into live... -_-

I can understand not suffering alignment loss (toward evil) for killing a necromancer. But not suffering reputation loss? As someone else said, sounds like this unfairly and unnecessarily targets one playstyle.

I'm more upset about the summoning and controlling part.

I'm totally down with Creating undead being heinous.
If I take control of that evil Necromancer's undead army attacking my settlement I damn well better not get the heinous flag for killing him with his own undead.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Durgadin wrote:

As a paladin or other good aligned character, I would like to see a mechanic that would allow you to bring evil doers to justice by non lethal means. There should be a way to subdue (bring to zero hit points) without killing your opponent. When an opponent reaches zero hit points you could get an option to subdue or deliver a coup de grace. By this means good aligned characters may be able to collect bounties by "arresting" the subdued opponent. How this mechanic would exactly work within the scope of an MMO I don't know, but it's something to think about.

You should get bonus points for this kind of stuff.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

IronVanguard wrote:
The way he said it, I assume certain types of training are actually chaos based, and thus the highest level trainers can only exist in Chaotic settlements, rather than Lawful settlements (where higher training for those few skills would be impossible).

Lawful settlements will probably be the only place to gain city management and formation combat skills both of which will be required to actually have a functioning settlement.

Good Settlements will probably the only place to find healing skill trainers.

Notice a problem yet?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Rafkin wrote:


So a LE settlement will have a low GOOD rating and therefor make them less effective than a LG settlement.
It will (potentially) have less valuable buildings than a Lawful Good Settlement - less valuable to a degree not yet determined. It will not have buildings as crappy as Chaotic Evil.

So basically your punishing people for playing chaotic evil.

Or any other alignment besides Lawful Good.
Which is unfair and damages the game.

So far from what I've seen is people in order to achieve the alignment they want will have to game the system.

This is not a good start.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Lifedragn wrote:


Do we have to be a neutral or evil guild in order to effectively fight evil? That sounds a bit crazy.

"Fighting Evil" is absolutely in the balliwick of Lawful Good Settlements. That is what War is for.

Individual acts of random justice meted out between individuals with no social connection? That's an evil act, regardless of the alignment of the victim. That still doesn't mean that you can't do it if you're Lawful Good, just that you'll shift your alignment (slightly) every time you do it, and you'll have to decide if that shift is worthwhile. In other words, a meaningful choice.

RyanD

So Paladins are evil imperialists conquering kingdoms that violate thier sense of morality?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Dakcenturi wrote:
Point 2 If you are LG and kill someone who is CE you are only going to take a small evil hit because killing someone, unprovoked is evil )ie not in response to them attacking you or having already done something evil.

That's true in this particular context, but it's not generally true.

I'm a High Reputation, Lawful Good character. There's a Low Reputation, Chaotic Evil character who's been following me around for the last three hours making "yo mama so fat" jokes about my mother. I finally decide I've had enough of it and dispatch him. This gives me the Attacker Flag.

At that point, a Paladin can come by and kill me and take my stuff without any Flags or Alignment/Reputation hits. Because I was Flagged.

Thats the problem with the flagging system as a whole for both sides.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Dario wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker)...

Dario, I'm talking about the occasions where the Bounty Hunter does get the Attacker Flag. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's what I meant about having to be more selective. If they're not flagged, then effectively your paladin is murdering someone because someone told you they did something bad. You're operating within a lawful contract, so being insulated from chaotic alignment shift makes sense. But you're still murdering someone on a third party's say so. There's no guarantee the bounty target is evil, or chaotic.
We are talking paladins. They have an iconic ability they can use to determine if someone is evil that doesn't rely on hearsay in the slightest.

You see some random dude walking down the street.

You detect Evil.
You smite the unarmed man.
Congratulations you sir are a murderer.

Just because he's evil does not mean smite first ask questions later.
Thats not lawful good.

Now if you happen to walk around the corner and you find some evil dude torturing puppies you have a reason to deal with the situation most likely without the whole killing them part.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Richter Bones wrote:

internet + anonymity = total jerkwad

Ryan did just state that LE settlements will be both awesome and powerful.

I'll believe it when I see some mechanics tied to it.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Dear Doctor Feelgood,

People and animals have begun to mysteriously disappear around my tower. Now the local villagers are claiming my pet Snugglepumpkin a half Tyrannasaurous Rex and Half Primal Umbral Dragon is responsible for these incidents. I'm convinced its the Local Sheriff who is obviously jealous of my cute and entirely tame pet. How do I prove my dear Snugglepumpkin is innocent and prove the Paladin is the real threat to the village?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

The problem with animated dead is that the soul and perceptions of the deceased are forced back into their husk, but not their will. The deceased are left seeing and feeling the actions taken by their former body but are helpless to do anything about it. "intelligent" undead don't subvert this; the intelligence is newly created by magic, and the victim is stuck with the thoughts of the malevolent intelligence, again with no way to actively interact.

All this talk of pulling people back from the afterlife for the purpose of enslaving them is disturbing; spreading misinformation about the effects of becoming undead is downright malicious.

Thats why I use speak with the dead to get thier permission first...

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Dear Doctor Feel Good,

I want to crossbreed dragons and T-Rexs to create an apex predator what would be the best way to convince others that this would be a good idea?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Dear Doctor Feel Good,

What is your stance on using magical or alchemical means to Feel Good?
Or should I combine them together to create the ultimate feeling?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:
The volume of animations required would be the biggest problem. I think they could create a decent unarmed combat style without holds or pins fairly easily. From my layman's perspective, creating the animation for holds and pins both for the attacker and their opponent which would only be used for that one combat style, would take up a lot of time and resources. It would be a lot easier (I figure) for the Devs to create a series of unarmed strikes and kicks, along with some flying kicks :D. Flying kicks would be great!

Its one of those projects that is semi expensive, but worth it since most mmos do not have grappling and throws involved in them.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

The biggest issue with it is the idiots who think its funny to stand in the middle of doorways and block people from entering and exiting the building. There has to be a way of moving without umm hurting them or instigating combat.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I love the idea, but it stretches my optimism to think that it could be implemented well on a reasonable budget. How can grappling be made relevant in PvP combat without becoming dominant; grappling-focused monks beat spell casters, but what category of character counters that monk?

Metal Armor + Heat metal + Fire resistance...

The classic dwarven priest troll grappler:)

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

In general, we're pretty sure that MMOs are a race to the bottom, Lord of the Flies style, if you don't put in mechanics to try to incentivize better behavior. Keep in mind that we're quite likely to have a large contingent of players that wound up Evil not due to a principled roleplaying decision, but because they like killing dudes and think evil has the best clothes.

So at this point we're putting in an array of systems to provide mechanical advantage to staying at the Lawful, Good, and high Reputation ends of the spectrums. We suspect that these will be necessary to keep some kind of balance in the alignments, given the overall tendency of most player bases. If it turns out that we were overly cynical about human behavior, and it does indeed result in a chilling effect on players willing to play down at the other end of the spectrums, we'll happily relax or remove some of these rules. But it seems like it'd be more agreeable to start strict and ease off than to try to patch in a bunch of new penalties later.

Heinous itself was added to the design recently in response to players a month or so ago specifically worried that the general alignment systems meant their paladins would have to stand by and watch evil characters do horrible things that they couldn't stop without major penalties. Making it a general system seems better, as that means we're not putting in something that only paladins get to use, but as the discussion above has noted we may eventually want to make it more directed if it does result in weird evil-on-evil dynamics.

It is likely that we'd let your LE settlement make it a crime to attack a character just for being Heinous, and this would be true in Fort Inevitable. Choosing whether to break a law that protects evil is just the kind of moral quandary a paladin in Fort Inevitable or similar environs should have to face. And the oncoming Criminal flag might cut down on the number of your evil peers that are interested in jumping you just because they can.

Paladin sees a person with a heinous tag walks up kills them.

Congratulations alignment violation.
Murder is still murder its not a lawful or good act.

I still don't see how the heinous tag is anything more then a tool for so called "good" player to grief evil players with little to no penalty for thier behavior.

The concept behind the tag itself creates an environment where griefing is not only encouraged its rewarded.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
Nonexistent wrote:
Well what if the heinous flag only removed the consequences when the algnment differs between the flagged and the potential crusader. Maybe go so far as to make it so only those with a good algnment get the "free kill". That would help keep the lawful evil communities from falling apart.

I agree.

Though if a Lawful Evil community is played correctly it should be fine. Unfortunately many players tend to confuse chaotic with evil and play all evil as chaotic evil regardless.

I've also seen people confuse lawful good with lawful evil before.

Lawful Evil communities should be the safest in the game even more so then Lawful Good, but people don't usually do well with alignments in mmos. Its more the Chaotic Evil and Neutral evil where you will have issues trying to survive for any extended period of time especially for new players without really big friends.

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