Goblin Squad Member
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Am I the only one who sees the Thief flag as a way to avoid the repercussions of unprovoked pvp?
Just imagine this, I kill some NPC -without causing myself to become flagged in the process- and then ignore the body, and hide nearby. After the husk of the NPC becomes unlocked, some unsuspecting player, possibly a new player, walks by and loots the NPC husk, gaining the Thief flag in the process. I then am able to kill the "Thief" without accruing any flags, just because they fell for my trap, I may then leave the Thief's husk lying there waiting for someone else to loot it and repeat the process, all without ever being flagged myself.
SO effectively, I could rack up a whole heap of dead player husks through this method without ever gaining a flag myself.
While I agree with using bait to ambush someone you could run into other issues with this tactic. Killing a PC means that they will be running back to their corpse to get the stuff off their corpse before the timer is up. If you continue to kill them after they have spawned it could be considered corpse camping which is likely to be considered a type of griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Am I the only one who sees the Thief flag as a way to avoid the repercussions of unprovoked pvp?
Just imagine this, I kill some NPC -without causing myself to become flagged in the process- and then ignore the body, and hide nearby. After the husk of the NPC becomes unlocked, some unsuspecting player, possibly a new player, walks by and loots the NPC husk, gaining the Thief flag in the process. I then am able to kill the "Thief" without accruing any flags, just because they fell for my trap, I may then leave the Thief's husk lying there waiting for someone else to loot it and repeat the process, all without ever being flagged myself.
SO effectively, I could rack up a whole heap of dead player husks through this method without ever gaining a flag myself.
And people will quickly learn not to take stuff from random corpses lying on the ground. It's self-correcting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's worth reminding everyone again that Ryan has made it clear you will never get a Flag accidentally. There will be some way that you will acknowledge to the system that you're doing this act knowingly, fully aware that you're going to get Flagged for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just imagine this, I kill some NPC -without causing myself to become flagged in the process- and then ignore the body, and hide nearby. After the husk of the NPC becomes unlocked, some unsuspecting player, possibly a new player, walks by and loots the NPC husk, gaining the Thief flag in the process. I then am able to kill the "Thief" without accruing any flags, just because they fell for my trap, I may then leave the Thief's husk lying there waiting for someone else to loot it and repeat the process, all without ever being flagged myself.
That's entrapment!
I saw a TV show where the police would do exactly that with unlocked cars. Well, except for killing the guy who eventually stole it, of course.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a typographical error in the Thief: Flag bullet point, that I believe needs to be cleared up.
"Looting rights unlock after about 5 minutes so that anyone can loot a corpse. Looting an unlocked husk that you did not originally have looting rights to will mark you as a Thief."
I believe it was meant to say... "Looting a locked husk.... will mark you as a Thief."
That being said, the flagging system does not seem to be one that will be applied often.
Just be mindful, what the flag does allow someone else to do, before you commit an act that could trigger it.
Simple rules to live by in an Open PVP World:
1. You are never safe
2. Never carry what you are not prepared to lose
3. It is all about gold, or it is only gold!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a typographical error in the Thief: Flag bullet point, that I believe needs to be cleared up.
"Looting rights unlock after about 5 minutes so that anyone can loot a corpse. Looting an unlocked husk that you did not originally have looting rights to will mark you as a Thief."
I believe it was meant to say... "Looting a locked husk.... will mark you as a Thief."
I took it to mean that only those with looting rights are allowed access to the husk until they unlock. Once unlocked, anyone can loot, but they will get flagged if they didn't have looting rights before the unlock.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am not sure.
It could well mean exactly what it says. Looting a husk without "kill" rights makes you a thief. The loot is still the property of the dead PC.
Otherwise if the rightful owner of the husk arrives back on the scene to collect his stuff he is unable to attack whoever looted his husk.
Example if original wording is correct:
Paladin kills a PC with criminal or attacker tag. Paladin has looting rights but decides not to (because he is a self-righteous boy-scout goodie goodie etc) and walks off. For the first 5 minutes no one else can loot but once 5 minutes is up looting can occur. Roaming bandit sees husk loots stuff (destroying eveything else player owns as a result) and gets a criminal tag. 1 minute later "true" owner of husk turns upand is able to attack the culprit who looted his body as culprit is now a criminal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ahh wait, I think I get it...
When they say "unlocked" they don't mean it figuratively, they mean it literally.
It is locked for five minutes, which means it can not be looted at all, by a passerby. Only by the killer or the owner. After 5 minutes it is unlocked, anyone can loot it, but they will get the Thief flag if they are not the original killer or the owner of the body.
If that is the case, then it is a form of baiting, very easy to exploit..
I won't share that exploit now, but I will bring it up if a Dev pops in on this discussion.
Goblinworks Founder
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If that is the case, then it is a form of baiting, very easy to exploit..
I won't share that exploit now, but I will bring it up if a Dev pops in on this discussion.
are you thinking of a situation that Nihimon covered few posts above:
"It's worth reminding everyone again that Ryan has made it clear you will never get a Flag accidentally. There will be some way that you will acknowledge to the system that you're doing this act knowingly, fully aware that you're going to get Flagged for it."
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Goblin Squad Member
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The types of flags that can be placed on a player character was interesting -Attacker: A player that attacks another player character that is not fair game gains the Attacker flag.
(no comment)
Criminal: This flag is given to players that break a law established by the settlement that controls the hex they're in.
(this gives settlement owners considerable power)
Thief: Looting an unlocked husk that you did not originally have looting rights to will mark you as a Thief.
(does anything else attract this marker?)
Traitor/Betrayer: Leaving a player or NPC group after betraying them may result in a flag: Traitor for PC groups and Betrayer for NPC alliances.
(no comment)
Heinous: Certain incredibly evil actions (like raising undead or using slaves in a construction project) may briefly flag a character with the Heinous flag.
(acquiring this tag may become a goal for some players)
Trespasser: Entering a settlement city that has forbidden you entry (due to too low reputation or other mechanics) applies the Trespasser flag, which persists while you're in the area and briefly after leaving.
(no comment)
I have a suggestion for a flag, for the Devs to consider. As the devs have written, you won't automatically get flagged, there will be some "look" at your activities before you actually get flagged.
This same "look" can be made when someone reports a suspected "Bot". The GM / Dev looks at the actions of the reported "Bot" and if they determine it is a Bot, they flag it with a "Bot Flag"...
This "Bot Flag" would be permanent, open to consequence free PVP and looting, and remains even after respawn.
This would force the people using bots to make a new one, almost every few hours, if not more often.
Then if PFO has a new character creation cool down like EVE has, you could take a gold farmer or bot user off line for at least a day.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a suggestion for a flag, for the Devs to consider. As the devs have written, you won't automatically get flagged, there will be some "look" at your activities before you actually get flagged.
This same "look" can be made when someone reports a suspected "Bot". The GM / Dev looks at the actions of the reported "Bot" and if they determine it is a Bot, they flag it with a "Bot Flag"...
This "Bot Flag" would be permanent, open to consequence free PVP and looting, and remains even after respawn.
This would force the people using bots to make a new one, almost every few hours, if not more often.
Then if PFO has a new character creation cool down like EVE has, you could take a gold farmer or bot user off line for at least a day.
I suggest GW's make this not just a flag but associate it with an extremely limiting debuff.
<< edit: I would call that curse something like "the souless curse" just for sake of game immersion keeping>>>>
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suggest GW's make this not just a flag but associate it with an extremely limiting debuff.
I have a suggestion for a flag, for the Devs to consider. As the devs have written, you won't automatically get flagged, there will be some "look" at your activities before you actually get flagged.
This same "look" can be made when someone reports a suspected "Bot". The GM / Dev looks at the actions of the reported "Bot" and if they determine it is a Bot, they flag it with a "Bot Flag"...
This "Bot Flag" would be permanent, open to consequence free PVP and looting, and remains even after respawn.
This would force the people using bots to make a new one, almost every few hours, if not more often.
Then if PFO has a new character creation cool down like EVE has, you could take a gold farmer or bot user off line for at least a day.
Making them open PVP flagged is an extremely limiting debuff and it rewards those of us that don't use bots.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Making them open PVP flagged is an extremely limiting debuff and it rewards those of us that don't use bots.
I agree, I just would like to see those bots also with reduced combat capabilities being unable to deffend themselves. So they would be flagged and incapacitated making them like a "sitting duck" in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree, I just would like to see those bots also with reduced combat capabilities being unable to deffend themselves. So they would be flagged and incapacitated making them like a "sitting duck" in combat.
Making them open PVP flagged is an extremely limiting debuff and it rewards those of us that don't use bots.
Make it so we can loot all the stuff they have been gathering too :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also consider a chartered company or settlement that has a member found to be using bots, those organisations might also suffer penalties? I think in some form/sense this would put the onus on CC's/Settlements to scrutinize their members a bit more for joining and/or report the bot-user's a/c as well sooner than later?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make it so we can loot all the stuff they have been gathering too :DI agree, I just would like to see those bots also with reduced combat capabilities being unable to deffend themselves. So they would be flagged and incapacitated making them like a "sitting duck" in combat.
Making them open PVP flagged is an extremely limiting debuff and it rewards those of us that don't use bots.
That could be the debuff that LordDaeron was talking about, but then, what gear do bots actually use? Bots are typically new characters as well, not very skilled, with maybe the most entry level harvesting skills.
Bots generally don't need to be made "sitting ducks", because they won't respond to your attacks even after you begin, or at least not beyond the most basic "response" to mobs that they might be set up for.
But I think a permanent "Bot Flag" is discouraging enough. How many player companies would want a member running around with both that flag and their company flag over their head?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If that is the case, then it is a form of baiting, very easy to exploit..I won't share that exploit now, but I will bring it up if a Dev pops in on this discussion.
Anyone who has a passing familiarity with EVE Online is aware of how can-flipping, and wreck aggro works. It's not a very big secret.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyone who has a passing familiarity with EVE Online is aware of how can-flipping, and wreck aggro works. It's not a very big secret.
If that is the case, then it is a form of baiting, very easy to exploit..I won't share that exploit now, but I will bring it up if a Dev pops in on this discussion.
Well it is slightly different then can flipping or ninja looting wrecks. It involves alt killing, then leaving husk as bait, for a passerby.
With can flipping, we used to put some of our own ore into a miners can. Than when his hauler came to pick up the can, he would take our ore as well, flagging him for the gank squad. Now larger ore holds have made jet caning rare, and Crimewatch has made miners skiddish over doing anything about ninja looting.
I see the same thing happening here. People will bait using husks, bandits will expect that. Bandits will send in a lone member to loot the husk, and pounce on any ambusher. Eventually nearly everyone will just ignore the husks, and PFO will be littered with corpses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well it is slightly different then can flipping or ninja looting wrecks. It involves alt killing, then leaving husk as bait, for a passerby.
As baiting goes, this one is pretty easy to avoid. Everyone knows that looting a body you didn't kill gives you the thief flag. So, if you find a body in the woods, don't loot it!
Kinda like if you didn't put a soda in the office fridge, then it's highly unlikely that any of the sodas in the fridge are yours.
Oh, wait... maybe the bait does work... :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't clear whether the act of opening a husk triggers the theft flag, or if it is just actually taking something from the corpse.
If it were the latter and you 'gave' the corpse something, no theft flag.
Problem with doing it that way is that people would look to see if what they could get is worth getting the flag or not.
Seems it would be better if there was a chance they could get nothing of real value and still get the flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't clear whether the act of opening a husk triggers the theft flag, or if it is just actually taking something from the corpse.
If it were the latter and you 'gave' the corpse something, no theft flag.
Problem with doing it that way is that people would look to see if what they could get is worth getting the flag or not.
Seems it would be better if there was a chance they could get nothing of real value and still get the flag.
This is exactly how it works in EVE now. You look first, and if there is something worthwhile, you grab it and wait to see what happens.
But, in EVE there are several things you have going for you, as a ninja looter:
1. If there is no one in local chat, you are in the system alone.
2. Before you snatch the item, you align to a station.
3. As soon as you snatch the item,if anyone is around, it will take them a few seconds to even lock onto you.
4. While they are getting a lock, you are already going to warp speed.
5. You are already docked before they figured out which direction you warped in.
6. Wait 15 minutes, for suspect flag to fade, rinse and repeat.
Thing is 99 out of 100 times, they never bother to try to lock you as a target. Because if they do, and you don't run.. Then What?
Are they going to risk a 5,000,000 ship because you stole a 5,000 item that someone else left behind?
Answer: No!!! Maybe even a "Hell No".
Another thing to remember: There are NO Lawful Good people in EVE! Not a One.
Make it so we can loot all the stuff they have been gathering too :DI agree, I just would like to see those bots also with reduced combat capabilities being unable to deffend themselves. So they would be flagged and incapacitated making them like a "sitting duck" in combat.
Making them open PVP flagged is an extremely limiting debuff and it rewards those of us that don't use bots.
That could be the debuff that LordDaeron was talking about, but then, what gear do bots actually use? Bots are typically new characters as well, not very skilled, with maybe the most entry level harvesting skills.
Bots generally don't need to be made "sitting ducks", because they won't respond to your attacks even after you begin, or at least not beyond the most basic "response" to mobs that they might be set up for.
But I think a permanent "Bot Flag" is discouraging enough. How many player companies would want a member running around with both that flag and their company flag over their head?
What if "bot flags" made the player become trade immune? Cannot sell, trade, mail or drop items for other characters, but can sell to NPC merchants and move items to personal banks and that is all. Since a lot of botting is directed at farming materials for sale or trade, this should be crippling. But, also, if someone is accused wrongfully, they can keep playing in other facets while they appeal the flag without being completely hosed by being ganked every five steps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if "bot flags" made the player become trade immune? Cannot sell, trade, mail or drop items for other characters, but can sell to NPC merchants and move items to personal banks and that is all. Since a lot of botting is directed at farming materials for sale or trade, this should be crippling. But, also, if someone is accused wrongfully, they can keep playing in other facets while they appeal the flag without being completely hosed by being ganked every five steps.
No one gets flagged without a GM having looked at it, so very little chance of being falsely flagged. If they are ganked every five steps, they won't get to market.
Bottom line, we don't want bots playing... period! We also want to kill them, repeatedly... period!!
What if "bot flags" made the player become trade immune? Cannot sell, trade, mail or drop items for other characters, but can sell to NPC merchants and move items to personal banks and that is all. Since a lot of botting is directed at farming materials for sale or trade, this should be crippling. But, also, if someone is accused wrongfully, they can keep playing in other facets while they appeal the flag without being completely hosed by being ganked every five steps.
No one gets flagged without a GM having looked at it, so very little chance of being falsely flagged. If they are ganked every five steps, they won't get to market.
Bottom line, we don't want bots playing... period! We also want to kill them, repeatedly... period!!
Why in the world would you want to waste your time? You know they don't care; they're bots. So, just leave them unable to do anything useful and they'll probably be more annoyed by the time wasted on product they can't move (ever again!) than the inconvenience of possibly having to run from a few players, depending on when and where they farm. I'd rather punish them with a method that ensures their punishment, whether I am there to dole it out or not.
In other words: it's not much of a punishment if they can just operate when no one's around and keep doing what they're doing and getting ever-better at it (skilling up). It's much more effective when you've now made their character forever useless and if they want to continue, they have to start a new character from scratch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yet where a settlement can set their own laws there can be no absolute laws, can there?
The Law is either set by Lawful deities, or it is set by the player community. I fail to see how it can be both unless players are able to dictate to gods what shall and shall not be.
Which is it?
I think Lawful dieties have as a primary concern that there be order and predictability in the universe. A prerequisite for that is that individuals must honor the oaths, obligations, duties and rules that they are placed under. Without that order can't very well exist. They may be rather agnostic as to what most of those specific obligations and rules entail as long as the rules themselves are not inherently chaotic in nature.
example: A Lawful diety may not care that a particular settlement has a law that everyone must wear pink on tuesdays as there is nothing inherently chaotic about the color pink. However they will care if individuals within said community choose to flount said law..as flounting laws and disregard for authority are inherently chaotic actions.
By contrast, if said community had a law that everyone must act randomly on tuesdays, a Lawful diety would probably have issues with that law..as the law itself fosters the spread of chaos.
YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Law is really only significant if it can be Enforced.
There's nothing metaphysically stopping two conflicting Laws from existing in the same place at the same time. In practice, one will probably not be enforced, but that's not even necessary. It's easy to imagine a City Council which makes it illegal to render aid to an accident victim if you're not trained in CPR, and a State that makes it illegal to fail to render aid when someone's life is in danger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Law is really only significant if it can be Enforced.
There's nothing metaphysically stopping two conflicting Laws from existing in the same place at the same time. In practice, one will probably not be enforced, but that's not even necessary. It's easy to imagine a City Council which makes it illegal to render aid to an accident victim if you're not trained in CPR, and a State that makes it illegal to fail to render aid when someone's life is in danger.
Conflicts over jurisdiction are a major problem in real world courts. Furthermore, in the real world, your own country/states laws can apply to you as a citizen even when you are outside that country.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one gets flagged without a GM having looked at it, so very little chance of being falsely flagged. If they are ganked every five steps, they won't get to market.
Bottom line, we don't want bots playing... period! We also want to kill them, repeatedly... period!!
There is a non-zero number of disabled people who play with software that can appear to be botting software, even if it's exceedingly rare id rather see players just completely blocked from all commerce then killed while they appeal and prove their situation.
Also I'd hated to see the resources from a bot to hit the market in another manner, even if the bot owner doesn't profit themselves it still does ancillary damage to the real harvesters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a non-zero number of disabled people who play with software that can appear to be botting software, even if it's exceedingly rare id rather see players just completely blocked from all commerce then killed while they appeal and prove their situation.
Also I'd hated to see the resources from a bot to hit the market in another manner, even if the bot owner doesn't profit themselves it still does ancillary damage to the real harvesters.
If there are programs people need to play the game now is a good time to let the dev team know about what is needed and then it is possible it could be integrated or at least have 3rd party software allowed. For this it is better to ask for permission than for forgiveness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a non-zero number of disabled people who play with software that can appear to be botting software, even if it's exceedingly rare id rather see players just completely blocked from all commerce then killed while they appeal and prove their situation.
Also I'd hated to see the resources from a bot to hit the market in another manner, even if the bot owner doesn't profit themselves it still does ancillary damage to the real harvesters.
If there are programs people need to play the game now is a good time to let the dev team know about what is needed and then it is possible it could be integrated or at least have 3rd party software allowed. For this it is better to ask for permission than for forgiveness.
DEVs could allow them to tell they're using this sort of program in the registration and the GMs would be aware of it avoiding missuderstandings. They still need to be tracked though, to not let some people abuse this system and use it for botting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a non-zero number of disabled people who play with software that can appear to be botting software, even if it's exceedingly rare id rather see players just completely blocked from all commerce then killed while they appeal and prove their situation.
Also I'd hated to see the resources from a bot to hit the market in another manner, even if the bot owner doesn't profit themselves it still does ancillary damage to the real harvesters.
If there are programs people need to play the game now is a good time to let the dev team know about what is needed and then it is possible it could be integrated or at least have 3rd party software allowed. For this it is better to ask for permission than for forgiveness.
Certainly but it's always going to be a moving target as the technology and options change, particularly if there is a form of auto-scripting detection included within the game. The above was a response to the handling a "bot" flag (if even such a thing is a consideration) and an argument for locking someone out of commerce instead of being able to blanket kill them repeatedly, a much less annoying way for an actual player who may have set off a false positive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Certainly but it's always going to be a moving target as the technology and options change, particularly if there is a form of auto-scripting detection included within the game. The above was a response to the handling a "bot" flag (if even such a thing is a consideration) and an argument for locking someone out of commerce instead of being able to blanket kill them repeatedly, a much less annoying way for an actual player who may have set off a false positive.There is a non-zero number of disabled people who play with software that can appear to be botting software, even if it's exceedingly rare id rather see players just completely blocked from all commerce then killed while they appeal and prove their situation.
Also I'd hated to see the resources from a bot to hit the market in another manner, even if the bot owner doesn't profit themselves it still does ancillary damage to the real harvesters.
If there are programs people need to play the game now is a good time to let the dev team know about what is needed and then it is possible it could be integrated or at least have 3rd party software allowed. For this it is better to ask for permission than for forgiveness.
I would like to see any type of third party software get the ban hammer unless it has had prior approval. Letting us kill "botters" repeatedly is vengeful but fun. Just the thought of it brings a smile to my face.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elaborate please...
A classic example is a Wizard scribing scrolls. I can't imagine there's a DM in the world who will force the player to be at the table with the DM while he works through some elaborate process to make each scroll. Rather, the DM is likely to say "Okay, you've had three days of downtime since our last session, which scrolls would you like to have scribed?"
I'd like to see something like that in the MMO. For example, by allowing my Wizard to specify what he's doing in his "downtime" when I log him off.
I briefly touched on this subject in item #2 from Keep characters in-world at all times, even when players are logged off?
[Edit] This kind of mechanic also helps to level the playing field (somewhat) between folks who can only spend an hour or so a week and those who can seemingly play 16 hours a day all week long.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elaborate please...A classic example is a Wizard scribing scrolls. I can't imagine there's a DM in the world who will force the player to be at the table with the DM while he works through some elaborate process to make each scroll. Rather, the DM is likely to say "Okay, you've had three days of downtime since our last session, which scrolls would you like to have scribed?"
I'd like to see something like that in the MMO. For example, by allowing my Wizard to specify what he's doing in his "downtime" when I log him off.
I briefly touched on this subject in item #2 from Keep characters in-world at all times, even when players are logged off?
[Edit] This kind of mechanic also helps to level the playing field (somewhat) between folks who can only spend an hour or so a week and those who can seemingly play 16 hours a day all week long.
I totally agree with this idea. Some sort of "control panel" we could access without need to login in the game and manage crafting, skill training etc. That would also contribute to a better server performance, I believe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I missed the post in that other thread Nihimon, but I love this idea! If Alchemists and.or Witches get implemented at some point (APG), this could also be used for potions and mutagens (also could be used for anyone having Brew Potion or other magical crafting skills, since feats seem to not be something in PFO unless they are merit badge level things). Where do you get such wonderful ideas? GW should hire you as Manager of Conceptual Design and Content ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elaborate please...A classic example is a Wizard scribing scrolls. I can't imagine there's a DM in the world who will force the player to be at the table with the DM while he works through some elaborate process to make each scroll. Rather, the DM is likely to say "Okay, you've had three days of downtime since our last session, which scrolls would you like to have scribed?"
Absolutely. In fact the crafting/researching system in EVE wouldn't be a bad start either. There could even be benefits to crafting in a non-safe place (maybe crafted items would be finished faster out in an insecure settlement then in a relatively safe npc city, or they could have a higher or random bonus quality, or anything really).
Also if fishing/foraging is included I wouldn't have a big problem if that was included in a very small way, maybe just the very basic fish/food could be gotten in that manner, and if you were doing any other automated task you wouldn't be able to choose fishing/foraging. Manually participating would give a chance for greater rewards, but generally speaking I haven't seen a game make fishing or foraging really interesting to participate in while playing. Anything to discourage casual botting is a good thing in my book.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm pleasantly surprised to see this idea being positively received; that wasn't the case originally - although that may have been due to it being so inextricably linked to the other part about characters staying in the game world even when the players were logged off.
Nihimon,
That was my sticking point with your earlier proposal. I have no problem with characters being able to accomplish tedious tasks without forcing the player to be at the keyboard doing so. In fact, I think that's an excellent idea and a very solid game design principle. I merely had a problem with the characters being physicaly rendered in the game world without some responsive human being behind the keyboard capable of interaction.