Goblinworks Blog: Blood on the Tracks


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Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Aven Galan wrote:
I still hope I can have a CG paladin, I think its kind of stupid that they limit it to just LG

I really hope that we get some way to learn most of the abilities usually associated with paladins without having to be LG.

I'm sure you can. I just dont expect to see aura of good, divine health, lay on hands, or smite evil among them. Some kind of Fighter/cleric combo can do a better job of all of those things than a paladin anyway with spells.

Fram a mechanics perspictive, there isn't a strong argument for why Paladins cant be of a different alingment as long as they follow thier code. From a flavor perspective in terms of the pathfinder world, there is a very strong reason why paladins need to be LG.

Well regarding the name “Paladin”, I don't have a problem with the fact,that this would only apply to LG paladins (I tend to associate it with the Hellsing anime anyways).

But I have to argue about aura of good and smite evil. Every good cleric gets aura of good, so it's not even that rare, nor is the ability even useful, it might even be a disadvantage. Smite evil is even more common, every celestial animal has access to it.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
LordDaeron wrote:
How about a friend who "loots" you just to prevent you from being looted by enemies? And return your stuff for you, will he be flagged?

Yes, and a lot of your stuff will get destroyed too.

Friends don't loot their friends' corpses. They stand guard over them until their friends can return and loot the husk themselves.

Yup, though it would be nice to see something like a DRAG mechanic (with permissions of course) to get fallen (or even stunned/immobilized) comrades out of harms way. You could balance it by requiring 1 hand free and significant movement penalties on the dragger.

That would be something that even newbie characters could be usefull for in combat...doesn't take any skill to drag...just guts.

Might even be wildlife predators who drag their kill to a more suitable place to eat ;)


One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.

Example small group of guards around a freighter in high sec. Pirate fleet appears if you attack first you are flagged and concord gets you, if you don't attack first they get in position and alpha strike on the freighter. So you lose either way.

Still early days yet so hopefully we can steer them to avoid such annoyances

Pagan
Pax Aeturnum

Goblin Squad Member

I like the idea of dragging the corpse to safety. Seen that in a couple of MMOs. The main thing that comes to mind is the "Tractor" spell from FFXI. Though that was a spell, but it would bring the target dead body to your position. This was used to pull dead bodies out of aggro range so that wouldnt insta-die upon res.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
LordDaeron wrote:
How about a friend who "loots" you just to prevent you from being looted by enemies? And return your stuff for you, will he be flagged?

Yes, and a lot of your stuff will get destroyed too.

Friends don't loot their friends' corpses. They stand guard over them until their friends can return and loot the husk themselves.

Yup, though it would be nice to see something like a DRAG mechanic (with permissions of course) to get fallen (or even stunned/immobilized) comrades out of harms way. You could balance it by requiring 1 hand free and significant movement penalties on the dragger.

That would be something that even newbie characters could be usefull for in combat...doesn't take any skill to drag...just guts.

+1 This was very effective in Dragonrealms and help immeasurably geting newbs to participate in a meaningful way when the enemy was simply too powerful for them otherwise.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Well regarding the name “Paladin”, I don't have a problem with the fact,that this would only apply to LG paladins (I tend to associate it with the Hellsing anime anyways).
But I have to argue about aura of good and smite evil. Every good cleric gets aura of good, so it's not even that rare, nor is the ability even useful, it might even be a disadvantage.

The aura thing is more pronounced on a paladin than it is on a cleric, but that is a fair point.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Smite evil is even more common, every celestial animal has access to it.

The Smite Evil isn't a valid argument. Celestial Animale come from another plane of reality. If you have some type of celetial blood through the half-celistial template, being an Aasimar, or a Celestial bloodline sorc, then it may be common... but not for any of the Core races or classes that are available to PC's. For regular mortals, being able to use Smite Evil is not a common ability.

Smite Chaos is actually much more common in Golarion due to the Hellknights, and they dont need you to be good.

Goblin Squad Member

ZenPagan wrote:
One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.

This is very much the kind of problem I have been trying to solve when I suggest a Challenge mechanic that forces another character to either move away from you or open themselves up to attack without consequences. Obviously, there's a lot that needs to be worked out to make something like that work.


Good to hear there are suggestions as it is one of the most annoying mechanics

Pagan
Pax Aeturnum

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
ZenPagan wrote:
One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.
This is very much the kind of problem I have been trying to solve when I suggest a Challenge mechanic that forces another character to either move away from you or open themselves up to attack without consequences. Obviously, there's a lot that needs to be worked out to make something like that work.

With the details adjusted right I like the idea; provided the bandits can't challenge guards off their camp or caravan etc. or the guards get flagged and bandits don't when they attack.

Goblin Squad Member

ZenPagan wrote:

One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.

Example small group of guards around a freighter in high sec. Pirate fleet appears if you attack first you are flagged and concord gets you, if you don't attack first they get in position and alpha strike on the freighter. So you lose either way.

Still early days yet so hopefully we can steer them to avoid such annoyances

Pagan
Pax Aeturnum

Well the key to that scenario is that the mechanics of that game allow an alpha strike to take out the prime target and essentialy end the combat before it begins. I'm hoping the combat dynamics in PFO are a little bit more interesting and firing first doesn't present that huge an advantage. I'm hoping that the combat system puts some sensible limitations on focused fire.

What I'd like to see happen with an analgous situation in PFO...

"A bunch of rough looking characters come walking out of the woods along a caravan route. The guards who are guarding the merchant caravan form a tight cordon around the merchant and the teamster leading the cart (not an offensive action - no flagging). The guards bring thier shields up defensively (not an offensive action - no flagging). The bandits now have no ability to attack the soft targets of the merchant and teamster as they have no line of effect to them..the guards are blocking it. The bandits CAN attack the guards but don't have any particular combat advantage in doing so because the guards are prepaired for it. The bandits can TRY to manuver to gang up on one guard, but the guards can equally manuver to physicaly interpose thier bodies from allowing that (e.g. collision detection). Even if the bandits somehow manage to kill the merchant or teamster, as long as the guards win the encounter the caravan can continue as the merchant and teamster can simply make it back to the combat scene and recover thier unmolested corpse."

The particular combat dynamics of EvE (which PFO hopefully won't emulate) are what make the situation that you described so problematic.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Well regarding the name “Paladin”, I don't have a problem with the fact,that this would only apply to LG paladins (I tend to associate it with the Hellsing anime anyways).
But I have to argue about aura of good and smite evil. Every good cleric gets aura of good, so it's not even that rare, nor is the ability even useful, it might even be a disadvantage.

The aura thing is more pronounced on a paladin than it is on a cleric, but that is a fair point.

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Smite evil is even more common, every celestial animal has access to it.

The Smite Evil isn't a valid argument. Celestial Animale come from another plane of reality. If you have some type of celetial blood through the half-celistial template, being an Aasimar, or a Celestial bloodline sorc, then it may be common... but not for any of the Core races or classes that are available to PC's. For regular mortals, being able to use Smite Evil is not a common ability.

Smite Chaos is actually much more common in Golarion due to the Hellknights, and they dont need you to be good.

Fair enough, I think if CG or NG warrior of the light is not available, my character might end up like an inquisitor.

Goblin Squad Member

Greedalox wrote:
I like the idea of dragging the corpse to safety. Seen that in a couple of MMOs. The main thing that comes to mind is the "Tractor" spell from FFXI. Though that was a spell, but it would bring the target dead body to your position. This was used to pull dead bodies out of aggro range so that wouldnt insta-die upon res.

I like this idea too.

Goblin Squad Member

ZenPagan wrote:

One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.

Example small group of guards around a freighter in high sec. Pirate fleet appears if you attack first you are flagged and concord gets you, if you don't attack first they get in position and alpha strike on the freighter. So you lose either way.

Still early days yet so hopefully we can steer them to avoid such annoyances

Pagan
Pax Aeturnum

I would like to see some sort of protection zones around the gathering and shipping operations that would help with this sort of situation. Group A has set up a lumber operation in the mountains and Group B has come up on them. Group B is issued a warning at a certain distance from Group A's operation that they are entering another groups temporarily restricted area. If group B continues on towards group A and hits another distance barrier (say just outside of the longer range attacks) group B will be bandit flagged for group A and group A may engage group B without consequence.

Something of that nature would make it possible for defenders to keep their operation safer, otherwise group B could walk up, have all of their characters get into whatever strike positions they wanted and slaughter everyone while group A is stuck waiting because they don't want their alignment to shift or anything.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
ZenPagan wrote:
One problem I find in Eve and hope they will have a solution for is that you can come across someone who you know is going to attack but you still have to wait for them to make the first move otherwise you get flagged.
This is very much the kind of problem I have been trying to solve when I suggest a Challenge mechanic that forces another character to either move away from you or open themselves up to attack without consequences. Obviously, there's a lot that needs to be worked out to make something like that work.

This is really an issue I would like to see a solution comming up in PFO. To be the first to attack can be (and most of the time is) an advantage. If we need to wait being attacked to react later, just to not be flagged, as in most MMOs, that would be a hell of a disadvantage.

Maybe the solution can be something like: just spoting someone that have you on target for a certain time lenght would let you to be able to attack without flagging. What do you all think?

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
I'm hoping that the combat system puts some sensible limitations on focused fire.

I can't imagine any "sensible" limitation that would stop 10 Wizards from all coordinating to cast Cone of Cold at the same time at the same targets, to devastating effect.

Frankly, I think that the bandits' ability to use their Hideout to stop a Caravan using Fast Travel should automatically apply a Flag of some sort.

Goblin Squad Member

Civildude892 wrote:
I would like to see some sort of protection zones around the gathering and shipping operations...

Trespasser Flag, maybe?

For those who are interested: Challenge Mechanic - To drive off other characters

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:
I'm hoping that the combat system puts some sensible limitations on focused fire.

I can't imagine any "sensible" limitation that would stop 10 Wizards from all coordinating to cast Cone of Cold at the same time at the same targets, to devastating effect.

I imagine the first time there enough wizards able to mass cast 5th level spells, thier target is going to have a bad time. But hopefully by that time there will be characters with Evasion, Improved Evasion, or possible Spell Resistance items. There will also be a sudden rise in demand for Protection from Energy spells before leaving on a caravan, along with cubes of frost resistance.

Goblin Squad Member

Greedalox wrote:
I like the idea of dragging the corpse to safety. Seen that in a couple of MMOs. The main thing that comes to mind is the "Tractor" spell from FFXI. Though that was a spell, but it would bring the target dead body to your position. This was used to pull dead bodies out of aggro range so that wouldnt insta-die upon res.

Also TP Friend from CoX! But anyway, it would be awesome to see them incoporate the dying/stabilizing mechanic from the PnP game. Your teammate gets downed and starts bleeding out, but if someone gan get to them in time you can stabilize them and help them up and get them out of combat by lending a shoulder, or simply drag their unconscious body to safety.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:
I'm hoping that the combat system puts some sensible limitations on focused fire.

I can't imagine any "sensible" limitation that would stop 10 Wizards from all coordinating to cast Cone of Cold at the same time at the same targets, to devastating effect.

Frankly, I think that the bandits' ability to use their Hideout to stop a Caravan using Fast Travel should automatically apply a Flag of some sort.

Well, I'm not even sure PFO will have a "Cone of Cold" spell... but line of effects are one thing the Pathfinder PnP ruleset didn't impliment in logical/"realistic" manner...although what they did probably made sense in terms of the booking for implimenting a PnP system.

You can't direct fire a weapon THROUGH a person/object standing in front of you to strike an object on the other side. You can't direct fire a weapon through a target in the first rank to strike a target which is behind it in the second rank.

Any projectile or projectile type weapon will be stopped by the first object it encounters along it's path of flight and unless that object is fully penetrated (meaning pretty much instantly killed for humans) it will provide hard cover and shield any targets behind it from said effect.

Indirect Fire weapons (say a flask of burning oil) on long overhead arching trajectories usualy have sufficient delay that the target has some opportunity to move out of the way if they are aware they are incoming.

Now in terms of something like your 10 high level wizards vs a few grunt guards. Any side which enjoys overwhelming firepower/odds is likely to win an encounter REGARDLESS of whether it fires first or second.

Now if ANY of the guards were sufficiently strong to absorb a single cone of cold...then all each one would have to do is physicaly interpose themselves in front of each wizard so that they blocked the cone at it's source. Furthermore, if you actualy had a DELAY on the casting and release of powerfull spells, as many systems do....the Wizards would be flagged on the start of thier casts allowing the guards the opportunity to attack and disrupt the casting of each spell without penalty.

Alpha strike issues really only become a problem when the combat system is primarly focused on simple DPS and the attackers are fully free to choose whatever target they want without consequences to themselves. As long as you allow the defender some ability (positionaly or otherwise) some ability to limit the target selection of a given attacker...then it becomes far less of a problem.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:
I'm hoping that the combat system puts some sensible limitations on focused fire.

I can't imagine any "sensible" limitation that would stop 10 Wizards from all coordinating to cast Cone of Cold at the same time at the same targets, to devastating effect.

I imagine the first time there enough wizards able to mass cast 5th level spells, thier target is going to have a bad time. But hopefully by that time there will be characters with Evasion, Improved Evasion, or possible Spell Resistance items. There will also be a sudden rise in demand for Protection from Energy spells before leaving on a caravan, along with cubes of frost resistance.

And again that all presumes a duplication of spells and combat mechanics from the PnP ruleset which we already know will NOT be the case in PFO. I would be surprised if very many high level spells made it into PFO without DRASTIC alterations of thier effect and function.

Frankly most high level magic in Pathfinder just isn't conduscive to good quality MMO PvP combat. It's conduscive to PvE where it's perfectly acceptable even desirable for a higher level caster to knock out 100 orcs/goblins, etc with a single snap of the fingers. Because the high level caster IS "The Hero" of the scene.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Applying real-world physics to magical effect in a fantasy game is just asking for headaches, but if it make you feel better, Cone of Cold is not a projectile. Its a burst. It fills the entire area with its effect and is only deflected by total cover (ie walls).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell


Sunwader wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:


Yup, though it would be nice to see something like a DRAG mechanic (with permissions of course) to get fallen (or even stunned/immobilized) comrades out of harms way. You could balance it by requiring 1 hand free and significant movement penalties on the dragger.

That would be something that even newbie characters could be usefull for in combat...doesn't take any skill to drag...just guts.

Might even be wildlife predators who drag their kill to a more suitable place to eat ;)

Yes to both of these! Lots of potential for fun if certain mobs carried husks back to their lair. The game would have to determine whether the deceased was solo, or in a group. If solo maybe only 1 or 2 mobs would be at the lair, if grouped, there could be more, but the chance of better loot could be a lot higher in the lair :D

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
Now in terms of something like your 10 high level wizards vs a few grunt guards. Any side which enjoys overwhelming firepower/odds is likely to win an encounter REGARDLESS of whether it fires first or second.

My example didn't specify "a few grunt guards". Does your analysis change if the Wizards are all casting Magic Missile instead? After all, it "strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment". Obviously, GW is not obligated to implement it the same way. But still...

I guess the part I'm having trouble accepting is the contention that an Alpha Strike is inherently a symptom of bad design.

In the real world, being "surrounded" usually means there's nothing you can do. In PFO, if my only choice to avoid getting surrounded is to run away, and hope I can run faster than those attempting to surround me, then that's a pretty sad choice. I should be able to try to rush them and fight my way out before they've fully set their trap.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:

Applying real-world physics to magical effect in a fantasy game is just asking for headaches, but if it make you feel better, Cone of Cold is not a projectile. Its a burst. It fills the entire area with its effect and is only deflected by total cover (ie walls).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Aiming-a-Spell

Yes but again, that's going verbatim from PnP ruleset which wasn't developed with either PvP or MMO combat in mind.

For all we know...there will be no such thing as a "burst" type effect in PFO.

In terms of real world physics....modern MMO engines can handle them. I'm not sure exactly what GW will do in terms of combat mechanics but it certainly IS possible to address the issue of Alpha strikes...as they make for pretty bland and uninteresting combat.

All you have to do is put some controls around how damage stacks vs a prepaired defence and the freedom of the attacker to select any target they want without limitation and you've made alpha strikes much less of an issue.

You can use real world physics and line of effects. You can use cover and protect commands. You can use engage/interdict commands. You can make it so that magic damage doesn't stack with magic damage of a similar or opposed type. You can make delays between casting and release which are subject to interruption and disruption.

There are a TON of different mechanisms that can be employed to deal with such issue. Neither EvE nor the PnP RuleSet really seek to address such issues...probably by design.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Par of this is while there is a different game system in place, GW is trying to be very failthful to the feel of the world and these types of spells are a core of the world. It's way to early to discuss specifics of combat in the game terminology that will be used by PfO, so it makes sence to talk about tactics in terms of d20 bucause that is the feel they are trying to emulate.

Will there be a Cone of Cold spell or a Magic Missle? I don't know. But the discussion is more about what could be possible to set up an alpha strike, and what possible counters might be applied. If we use d20 terms to discuss it, then that is valid at this time because GW is trying to match the feel of these rules and we don't have enough information to theroycraft anything in the rules of PFO.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

The idea to drag the body of a dead ally if you lack the resources the revive him, is very nice. A dead body doesn't bother all that much, when in a bag of holding.

Goblin Squad Member

I recall reading somewhere that one can setup looting right beforehand in a way that your group can get your stuff for you before the enemy loots it.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:
Now in terms of something like your 10 high level wizards vs a few grunt guards. Any side which enjoys overwhelming firepower/odds is likely to win an encounter REGARDLESS of whether it fires first or second.

My example didn't specify "a few grunt guards". Does your analysis change if the Wizards are all casting Magic Missile instead? After all, it "strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat, so long as it has less than total cover or total concealment". Obviously, GW is not obligated to implement it the same way. But still...

I guess the part I'm having trouble accepting is the contention that an Alpha Strike is inherently a symptom of bad design.

In the real world, being "surrounded" usually means there's nothing you can do. In PFO, if my only choice to avoid getting surrounded is to run away, and hope I can run faster than those attempting to surround me, then that's a pretty sad choice. I should be able to try to rush them and fight my way out before they've fully set their trap.

My contention is that by design or ommision they chose to create combat mechanics that didn't deal with the issue. It's not neccesarly "bad" design because the PnP ruleset is NOT intended to deal with PvP and is NOT intended to function in the medium of an MMO. It would be like saying that TURN based combat is bad design.....it's perfectly great for the PnP ruleset...untennable for an MMO.

In the real world, if you are surrounded Form an Infantry Square (or a circle) or fortify your position or put some article of terrain near you that limits the attackers approach.

Heck "shooting first" usualy wasn't even all that important in old Western Shootouts (where a single bullet can kill)...it was more important to shoot accurately.

The "I need to attack first - Alpha Strike" only is important in combat systems that are designed to make that aspect of combat important.

Note also that "Flagging" only penalizes attacking....it has absolutely no effect on the defender moving/manuvering or prepairing a defence.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Being wrote:
I hope to gain a reputation for maintaining comprehensive knowledge of what threats are in the wild and where, for as large an area as I can manage.
Any chance you'd be interested in documenting what you find - in character or out - and sharing that with the rest of the community? This is exactly the kind of thing The Seventh Veil is interested in putting in our libraries.

A worthy goal, I suspect the Keepers may be interested in exchanging knowledge when the time comes, though I am not in a position to make such an offer.

Do be aware that some such knowledge, depending on context, may constitute "spoilers" and will need to be suitable handled.

Goblin Squad Member

Papaver wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that one can setup looting right beforehand in a way that your group can get your stuff for you before the enemy loots it.

A really nice possibility I would say. That would even be a way to encourage people to go out in the wilderness and take risks.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:

Par of this is while there is a different game system in place, GW is trying to be very failthful to the feel of the world and these types of spells are a core of the world. It's way to early to discuss specifics of combat in the game terminology that will be used by PfO, so it makes sence to talk about tactics in terms of d20 bucause that is the feel they are trying to emulate.

Will there be a Cone of Cold spell or a Magic Missle? I don't know. But the discussion is more about what could be possible to set up an alpha strike, and what possible counters might be applied. If we use d20 terms to discuss it, then that is valid at this time because GW is trying to match the feel of these rules and we don't have enough information to theroycraft anything in the rules of PFO.

Right but you guys are assuming that the only methodology you have to deal with it is to launch a pre-emptive attack. Your kinda ingnoring the fact that the way many game systems deal with such things (and frankly is often the case in real life too) is by prepairing a DEFENSE.

Defensive actions likely wouldn't trigger any flag....so that would actualy remove that particular issue....and have the added benefit that combat doesn't simply devolve down to who clicks a button first.

Goblin Squad Member

Attacking first and ambushing are usually not a huge advantage in PnP combat as at best you get a surprise round and many characters have feats like improved initiative or can act in the surprise round.

Your party getting smacked by a high level cleric out of the blue with something like Dictum or Holy Word before combat starts kinda sux but yeah you get that.

Its a little different online as its not turn based.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel, good observation there! It has got me thinking - as a Wizard, I will likely have a number of non-damaging spells available to me, like sleep or web. I wonder how the flag mechanism would handle that? It's a defensive move, as I am doing no damage - heck, it could give me time to flee if I wanted to, so would it be seen as an attack, thus giving the attacker flag, or would that only occur if I damage another PC?

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:


Defensive actions likely wouldn't trigger any flag....so that would actualy remove that particular issue....and have the added benefit that combat doesn't simply devolve down to who clicks a button first.

And I totally agree with you on this point. Thats why i broght up procetion spells vs cone of cold.

One of the great things about the PnP rules that I would love to see transfer is the option to ready an action. If you guards are armed with crossbows, it would be entirely possible for them to take aim and ready an attack vs spell casting or advancing. If you can see a group of likely bandits approaching, then you should be able to ready vs attacker flag to allow your action to happen as soon as they turn hostile. That way you can defend yourself without gaining the attacker flag.

Goblin Squad Member

Gloreindl wrote:

GrumpyMel, good observation there! It has got me thinking - as a Wizard, I will likely have a number of non-damaging spells available to me, like sleep or web. I wonder how the flag mechanism would handle that? It's a defensive move, as I am doing no damage - heck, it could give me time to flee if I wanted to, so would it be seen as an attack, thus giving the attacker flag, or would that only occur if I damage another PC?

Even if you don't do dommage, You should have an attacker flag. (I think.) You have use a done something against an another player.

The grey about that is this situation: You use not web to attack the player but for giving you cover. The web don't touch the other player.

If the other player or anybody else who come by touch (don't attack it ) it, does the player who had cast the spell will have the attacker flag?

The other player could have just touch it because he want the first player having the flag and not him.

The same question goes in reverse. Do you have a flag if you attack the web that bloking you?

Goblin Squad Member

If I remember right PF has a few spells that let a person teleport back to a safe area as an act of will. Hopefully they have that in PFO and it will be one of the things I aim for. Hard to loot me when I disappear before you can kill me. ;)

Really unless they do away with a number of spells and magical items, only the unprepared or low level will be an easy mark. Those PVPers and bandits will have to spend a good deal of time and effort into building their characters to truely be successful at killing people. Even then they will only get what you are willing to lose sense its non threaded gear. So really I am not going to hold it against a PC that can one shot me or finds a way to overcome my defenses. Mostly because it shows they put thought and work into their PC, just as much as me and my group. Travel in groups, pack light, and thread what you cant be without.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
GrumpyMel wrote:


Defensive actions likely wouldn't trigger any flag....so that would actualy remove that particular issue....and have the added benefit that combat doesn't simply devolve down to who clicks a button first.

And I totally agree with you on this point. Thats why i broght up procetion spells vs cone of cold.

One of the great things about the PnP rules that I would love to see transfer is the option to ready an action. If you guards are armed with crossbows, it would be entirely possible for them to take aim and ready an attack vs spell casting or advancing. If you can see a group of likely bandits approaching, then you should be able to ready vs attacker flag to allow your action to happen as soon as they turn hostile. That way you can defend yourself without gaining the attacker flag.

Could be challenging to implement and even more challenging to actually use in combat.

In ideal circumstances, the bandits should already have a flag like criminal, but if this is not the case well let's hope they can find a way to solve this drama.

Defensive actions without a flag might not be the option, after all they could wait until you are all buffed (spending resources) retreat until the effects have ended, and try again.

Goblin Squad Member

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:


Defensive actions without a flag might not be the option, after all they could wait until you are all buffed (spending resources) retreat until the effects have ended, and try again.

Bearing in mind buffs from a high level caster can last a very long time. You could potentially make it to a safe hex before they wore off.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

OmniChaos wrote:

If I remember right PF has a few spells that let a person teleport back to a safe area as an act of will. Hopefully they have that in PFO and it will be one of the things I aim for. Hard to loot me when I disappear before you can kill me. ;)

Really unless they do away with a number of spells and magical items, only the unprepared or low level will be an easy mark. Those PVPers and bandits will have to spend a good deal of time and effort into building their characters to truely be successful at killing people. Even then they will only get what you are willing to lose sense its non threaded gear. So really I am not going to hold it against a PC that can one shot me or finds a way to overcome my defenses. Mostly because it shows they put thought and work into their PC, just as much as me and my group. Travel in groups, pack light, and thread what you cant be without.

I expect them to limit the usefulness of spells like teleport. After all, with bags of holding and other items you can transport quite a lot of material.

I do hope, that shrink item will be included.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

With the leveling time suggested by the dev blogs and posts, I wouldn't expect to see anyone being advanced enough to cast teleport for at least a year after EE begins.

Goblin Squad Member

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
OmniChaos wrote:

If I remember right PF has a few spells that let a person teleport back to a safe area as an act of will. Hopefully they have that in PFO and it will be one of the things I aim for. Hard to loot me when I disappear before you can kill me. ;)

Really unless they do away with a number of spells and magical items, only the unprepared or low level will be an easy mark. Those PVPers and bandits will have to spend a good deal of time and effort into building their characters to truely be successful at killing people. Even then they will only get what you are willing to lose sense its non threaded gear. So really I am not going to hold it against a PC that can one shot me or finds a way to overcome my defenses. Mostly because it shows they put thought and work into their PC, just as much as me and my group. Travel in groups, pack light, and thread what you cant be without.

I expect them to limit the usefulness of spells like teleport. After all, with bags of holding and other items you can transport quite a lot of material.

I do hope, that shrink item will be included.

Maybe just limiting the amount of cargo by weight and/or number of itens (including the ones in magical bags and simmilar stuff) that you can transport in a teleport could sufice as a restriction.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

LordDaeron wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
OmniChaos wrote:

If I remember right PF has a few spells that let a person teleport back to a safe area as an act of will. Hopefully they have that in PFO and it will be one of the things I aim for. Hard to loot me when I disappear before you can kill me. ;)

Really unless they do away with a number of spells and magical items, only the unprepared or low level will be an easy mark. Those PVPers and bandits will have to spend a good deal of time and effort into building their characters to truely be successful at killing people. Even then they will only get what you are willing to lose sense its non threaded gear. So really I am not going to hold it against a PC that can one shot me or finds a way to overcome my defenses. Mostly because it shows they put thought and work into their PC, just as much as me and my group. Travel in groups, pack light, and thread what you cant be without.

I expect them to limit the usefulness of spells like teleport. After all, with bags of holding and other items you can transport quite a lot of material.

I do hope, that shrink item will be included.
Maybe just limiting the amount of cargo by weight and/or number of itens (including the ones in magical bags and simmilar stuff) that you can transport in a teleport could sufice as a restriction.

There are a number of factors in play here:

GW want there to be a risk at transporting goods from the extraction site, to the place of consumption. So bandits and guards have something to do.
The other factor is how much players are willing to invest in the ability to teleport once or twice per day, or in other words, what are you willing to give up. I doubt that this will be a big factor, since people could potentially use a thunder twin character for that.
Lastly, what are you willing to pay? How expensive has the cost to be, so a wagon of coal, or iron ore is no longer worth the cost?

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Could be challenging to implement and even more challenging to actually use in combat.

Actually, with the 6 second combat "round" system, it could actually be fairly easy. You could "pre-load" what skills etc you will use in that first 6 second round of combat, so that they start to trigger as combat begins.

That seems like a simple and logical way to handle it. The coding might be finicky, however.

Goblin Squad Member

I must say i liked the info in this blog.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Perhaps a solution to the edge case being discussed is even simpler: Let the accosted party call for the marshals preemptively.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Ehh, all these flags sound overly punative to evil players. I saw nothing particulary bad for good players.

The heinous flag for example, so you do some despicable act and your flagged as a free kill to everyone in the game? Not even safe in your own settlement? If you have that flag it doesn't matter if your are in an evil settlement someone will attack you just becasue they can because they can get your stuff and not suffer any negative flags themselves. Even if the heinous act was actively promoting the goals of the settlement you serve.

Your not going to have any evil players with this system. I should say evil players that want to put any real effort into playing meaningful evil characters, not just random gankers.

Goblin Squad Member

Remembering the tech demo, have any of you thought about catapults and other siege engines for massed or indirect fire?


Harad Navar wrote:
Remembering the tech demo, have any of you thought about catapults and other siege engines for massed or indirect fire?

Yep, I'm ready to charge just as soon as you fire the catapult! <wg>

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:

All you have to do is put some controls around how damage stacks vs a prepaired defence and the freedom of the attacker to select any target they want without limitation and you've made alpha strikes much less of an issue.

You can use real world physics and line of effects. You can use cover and protect commands. You can use engage/interdict commands. You can make it so that magic damage doesn't stack with magic damage of a similar or opposed type. You can make delays between casting and release which are subject to interruption and disruption.

I find this pretty compelling, and I definitely see where you're coming from. It's an alien thought to me, so I'm having a little difficulty really grabbing on to it, but it's not as straight-forward as I originally though.

Neadenil Edam wrote:
Do be aware that some such knowledge, depending on context, may constitute "spoilers" and will need to be suitable handled.

We expect most of our articles to be in the form of player-written first-person exploration journals. They may very well reveal some hidden secrets of an area, but you make a good suggestion, so we'll encourage the writers to try to make it clear that such information is forthcoming.

Imbicatus wrote:
If you guards are armed with crossbows, it would be entirely possible for them to take aim and ready an attack...

That's a fantastic idea, and really makes the whole thing a lot easier for me to accept.

Fiendish wrote:
Ehh, all these flags sound overly punative to evil players. I saw nothing particulary bad for good players.

Evil is already at an advantage in that they're more than happy to kill a Good guy and just take his stuff. Good doesn't do that. They need the Flag in order to justify their action.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Fiendish wrote:
Ehh, all these flags sound overly punative to evil players.

Excepting the whole part about getting a nice pile of cash, items, and materials that they didn't have to mine for or earn. Banditry is likely to be a decent money making venture. Smart bandits won't even need to attack, they just need to claim an area and charge a toll.

Lets say there is a bandit group with 10 members. A caravan traveling through their controlled area (hideout to ambush fast travelers) would want at least 10 guards to combat that threat, probably more to ensure their survival. Lets say that a guard costs 20 gp an hour. That is a minimum of 200 gp. What if the bandits charged 150 gp and ensured their safety? Money, for not attacking someone.

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