|
A seasoned veteran player asked me why would anyone take combat reflexes, unless it gives you all the attacks up to your dex bonus?
I said, you only get up to that number if there are that many provocations.
He asked, why doesn't it just say that in the rules?
QUESTION: You only get up to the number of AOOs up to your dex IF there happen to be that many aoos that round. In other words he doesn't get to wail on someone 4 times, does he?
THNX
It can also be used on more than one opponent per round. This is the most common case that I see. One might run through your threatened square and then attempt a Combat Maneuver that provokes, then you run up to a mage attack him, then he tries to cast a spell. You just got 3 AoOs in one round.
It can also be used on more than one opponent per round. This is the most common case that I see. One might run through your threatened square and then attempt a Combat Maneuver that provokes, then you run up to a mage attack him, then he tries to cast a spell. You just got 3 AoOs in one round.
To be fair this senario is only if you are fighting very stupid people :D. Lets take a couple of examples that may actually come up in play and serve as better illistrations as to why take Combat Reflexes.
You and an ally both have the Outflank teamwork feat. If your ally crits multiple times during an attack you can only take one attack of opportunity where as if you had Combat Reflexes you can take several.You have the Step Up and Strike feat chain and are attacking either an archer or a caster. They take a 5 foot step thinking to do the 'shuffle' and attack that is very common. You use step-up and strike as one of your attack of opportunities. Now with combat reflexes you can take more AoOs if they fire the bow or try to cast a spell (non-defensively) since you still threaten them where as you'd be done if you did not take combat reflexes. This can be important. Lets say you really hate casters and also take the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats, you need an AoO 'ready' for these feats to function.
One more example. You have Combat Reflexes, Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte feats and Greater Trip Feats. On your turn you trip them and when you do you get an AoO. On there turn they stand up, provoking another AoO. They are upset that you tripped them and attack you. You deflect the attack with Crane Wing and by doing so get another AoO with Crane Riposte. Without Combat Reflexes you would have missed out on two attacks. This all happens without having a single person walk out of your threatened area.
This is the advantage. Multiple people running and doing stupid stuff isn't likely and if your only taking Combat Reflexes for those cases then the feat won't be used to it's fullest potential. However if a build supports taking and using AoOs in some fashion it is very useful and in some cases really shine.
The other advantage is to be able to take AoOs even when flat-footed.
QUESTION: You only get up to the number of AOOs up to your dex IF there happen to be that many aoos that round. In other words he doesn't get to wail on someone 4 times, does he?
THNX
just as a side note, in PF, its 1+DexMod AoOs possible now
so an 18 Dex would have 5 possible AoOs
But as the others have said, each action can only provoke once, but a target could provoke multiple different actions in a given round
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Combat Reflexes can be powerful, but it is not that good on its own. You need to build/optimize around it. Even something as simple as wielding a reach weapon makes it see at least 4x as much use as not using a reach weapon. Then if you look for other things to combo with it, it gets better. Reach weapon + CR + Dazing Assault feat? That's just beautiful. CR + barbarian's Come and Get Me? You're now a murder machine.
So for certain builds / fighting styles, CR is a great feat. For others, it could definitely seem like it sucks. It's not a feat every melee character should take.
I've got a polearm master with Combat Reflexes in my group. My wizard casting Enlarge Person on him means he gets to make a ridiculous numer of AoOs on everything that happens anywhere around the battlefield.
Combat Reflexes should not be under-estimated. It is a very powerful feat when done correctly, and is also a pre-requisite for other (equally important) feats, most of which also need multiple attacks of opportunity to function properly.
Bodyguard, Step Up and Strike, Crane Riposte, Panther Style; there are so many other feats that allow characters to utilize Attacks of Opportunities, and their viability (as well as ability to use them all at the same time) would otherwise not be possible if not for Combat Reflexes.
And those are just the feats. The situations which you can work your Attacks of Opportunity on combined with said feats are what makes the Combat Reflexes feat the foundation that it is.
|
Also it is at full BAB. If you have greater trip you can do a trip attempt with your iterative attack (with all the extra bonuses to trip making up for the lower bab in iterative) and follow up with an AoO. Another AoO with vicious stomp, amd a third if they get up from prone.
My Jade Regent DM is a bit frustrated by my Vanaran monk ;)
|
Sorry for the thread necro, but this thread showed up when simply googling "pathfinder attacks of opportunity" and there was one scenario I didn't see mentioned that is very common but often forgotten about:
When someone makes a ranged touch attack in a square you threaten. That action alone provokes 2 attacks of opportunity. One for the casting of a spell, the other for making a ranged attack in melee. The first wouldn't happen if you managed to cast the spell defensively, but the second would still occur.
|
|
That still only provokes one attack; they don't accumulate in the way that you're talking about.
Sorry, Avatar-1, but that would provoke, potentially, twice,
Once for casting a spell non-defensively in a threatened square; another for the ranged attack made from a threatened square.
Cast a spell (1 standard action casting time) Yes
Attack (ranged) Yes
This falls under the same ruling as to whether an archer provokes once for each attack with his bow, or just once for attacking with a bow.
And, yes, it is possible to get multiple different provocations in short order from a single event:
The Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp combo mentioned gets the tripper or adjacent ally multiple AoOs for the event of tripping a target.
Trip, with Greater Trip provokes an AoO, then the taregt winds up prome, provoking the AoO form Vicious Stomp.
Cast spell: provokes AoO
Uses ranged attack spell gave him: provokes AoO
Question: Does Scorching Ray provoke once, as all rays are simultaneous, or would it provoke once for each ray?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just in case you want an official answer on this Avatar, here's the FAQ saying so.
EDIT: Kinevon, answered before fully reading your post. the FAQ I linked above states that for scorching ray and other spells with multiple shots, it only provokes once, since all the attacks are being shot at the same time.
|
Combat reflexes is defensive too. 2 bandits wielding shortswords charging at you and you're caught flatfooted cos you rolled low for init? Worry no more! With a swish of your longspear, you trip the two bandits, preventing them from hitting your flatfooted ac!
If they use their standard action to stand up, you get aoos, and they have no actions to hit you with. Assuming they do not use their standard action to stand up...
When your turn starts, you have 2 bandits prone in your longspear threatened range. Its bandit skewering time! What's there not to like?
|
|
Combat reflexes is defensive too. 2 bandits wielding shortswords charging at you and you're caught flatfooted cos you rolled low for init? Worry no more! With a swish of your longspear, you trip the two bandits, preventing them from hitting your flatfooted ac!
If they use their standard action to stand up, you get aoos, and they have no actions to hit you with. Assuming they do not use their standard action to stand up...
When your turn starts, you have 2 bandits prone in your longspear threatened range. Its bandit skewering time! What's there not to like?
@Strife2002: No problem, I vaguely remembered that, just couldn't remember where I had seen it. Thanks for the link to the FAQ.
@Just a Mort: Add in Greater Trip, and disarm to the tactics, and your bandits move from unhappy to very unhappy.
Trip them on the charge, disarm them with the AoO from Greater Trip, then either:
bash them when they stand up, and trip them when they try to pick up their weapon, or:
bash them when they grab their weapon while prone, and disarm them when they stand up.
Be careful on the second turn, if they live that long, as they can stand up, eating another AoO, 5' step adjacent to you, and attack you. Also, for most reach weapons, once they move adjacent, they can freely pick up the weapon in the square they left, since you don't threaten their square.
And, yes, it is possible to get multiple different provocations in short order from a single event:
The Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp combo mentioned gets the tripper or adjacent ally multiple AoOs for the event of tripping a target.
Trip, with Greater Trip provokes an AoO, then the taregt winds up prome, provoking the AoO form Vicious Stomp.
Boldness mine, but it's even better than that, as both AoOs are firing when the target is prone. Goodness all around for everyone...except the target. :)
I have a reach bard build with Combat Reflexes. He has the Halfling race trait 'Helpful' and next level he picks up Bodyguard so that he can keep his allies a bit safer.
Be careful on the second turn, if they live that long, as they can stand up, eating another AoO, 5' step adjacent to you, and attack you. Also, for most reach weapons, once they move adjacent, they can freely pick up the weapon in the square they left, since you don't threaten their square.
Ring of Rat Fangs, Dwarven Boulder Helmet,... There are ways to threaten near and far.
|
|
And, yes, it is possible to get multiple different provocations in short order from a single event:
The Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp combo mentioned gets the tripper or adjacent ally multiple AoOs for the event of tripping a target.
Trip, with Greater Trip provokes an AoO, then the taregt winds up prome, provoking the AoO form Vicious Stomp.Boldness mine, but it's even better than that, as both AoOs are firing when the target is prone. Goodness all around for everyone...except the target. :)
I have a reach bard build with Combat Reflexes. He has the Halfling race trait 'Helpful' and next level he picks up Bodyguard so that he can keep his allies a bit safer.
As the very, very, very long thread points out, expect table variation on this one.
At my table, expect the Greater Trip AoO to happen while the target is still standing, so no additional -4 to their AC. But that is because of how I read the feat.
Note that this is how I also usually run my PCs who use this tactic, as well, not just when I am GMing. I only do the prone bonus to the AoO when the GM tells me to, as he is the GM.
The AoO from standing up clearly has the -4 for prone because they provoke before finishing standing up. For the greater trip and vicious stomp AoOs I'm not sure.
The AoO from standing up clearly has the -4 for prone because they provoke before finishing standing up. For the greater trip and vicious stomp AoOs I'm not sure.
Greater trip plays out in my mind as as either a very hard hitting trip that does damage as well. Therefore, should not have the -4.
Vicious stomp as the name suggest, should have the -4 from the prone.
All strictly speculation on my part :)
You can't trip a target that is prone. Hence, you can't use the trip maneuver during an AoO when someone is standing up.
To avoid hijacking this thread, I'd recommend someone post a new thread if they really wish to discuss the whole Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp/Prone issue. Before they do, however, I'd suggest reading 3 things.
#1 The description of the Trip Combat Maneuver. Pay particular attention to the section that talks about what happens when you fail in your attempt by 10 or more and who is/isn't rolling what.
#2 The Trip weapon property. Note the 2nd sentence in that description and compare it to what you just read concerning failing the combat maneuver by 10+. See if anything mentally clicks into place.
#3 The Trip creature ability. Again note the 2nd sentence in particular and how it compares with the weapon property. Notice how the rules here and in the previous 2 things just read are interchanging phrases like "knocked prone instead" and "avoid being tripped" and even "not tripped in return"...as if 'being knocked prone' and 'being tripped' are synonymous terms...
But seriously, this really is a topic for a different thread.
To avoid hijacking this thread, I'd recommend someone post a new thread if they really wish to discuss the whole Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp/Prone issue. Before they do, however, I'd suggest reading 3 things.
#1 The description of the Trip Combat Maneuver. Pay particular attention to the section that talks about what happens when you fail in your attempt by 10 or more and who is/isn't rolling what.
#2 The Trip weapon property. Note the 2nd sentence in that description and compare it to what you just read concerning failing the combat maneuver by 10+. See if anything mentally clicks into place.
#3 The Trip creature ability. Again note the 2nd sentence in particular and how it compares with the weapon property. Notice how the rules here and in the previous 2 things just read are interchanging phrases like "knocked prone instead" and "avoid being tripped" and even "not tripped in return"...as if 'being knocked prone' and 'being tripped' are synonymous terms...But seriously, this really is a topic for a different thread.
Or just read the thread where you, me, and I think it was fretgod already hashed this all out. No reason to start an entirely new thread on it to come to the same conclusion that the rules aren't sufficiently clear to prove either side correct.
Or just read the thread where you, me, and I think it was fretgod already hashed this all out. No reason to start an entirely new thread on it to come to the same conclusion that the rules aren't sufficiently clear to prove either side correct.To avoid hijacking this thread, I'd recommend someone post a new thread if they really wish to discuss the whole Greater Trip/Vicious Stomp/Prone issue. Before they do, however, I'd suggest reading 3 things.
#1 The description of the Trip Combat Maneuver. Pay particular attention to the section that talks about what happens when you fail in your attempt by 10 or more and who is/isn't rolling what.
#2 The Trip weapon property. Note the 2nd sentence in that description and compare it to what you just read concerning failing the combat maneuver by 10+. See if anything mentally clicks into place.
#3 The Trip creature ability. Again note the 2nd sentence in particular and how it compares with the weapon property. Notice how the rules here and in the previous 2 things just read are interchanging phrases like "knocked prone instead" and "avoid being tripped" and even "not tripped in return"...as if 'being knocked prone' and 'being tripped' are synonymous terms...But seriously, this really is a topic for a different thread.
For people who hate themselves and want to punish their very existence, the long thread is here. The FAQ thread is here. For the truly miserable souls out there who long for eternal suffering at their own hands, here is another contemporaneous thread - it is the proverbial head vampire of the three. Can't be slain, though. We've tried. Oh, how we've tried.
Also, for extended light reading, see [ur.=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qs4m?The-Greater-Trip-feat-and-Attacks-of#1]here[/url] and here.
Have fun, kids!
Yes, that would be the one thing on this topic that we could agree on. Because this topic pops up from time to time and of all the frequently asked questions out there, this one would seem to be at or near the top of that list. Why the Devs have not addressed this in all this time, I'm not sure. But one can always hope. :)
Edit: Many times new folks may comb through old threads to get information. But sometimes they might find it necessary to post a new thread in order to hash out questions they might have or offer new insight into the topic. For those older folks tired of such topics, it's always an option to not read them. :p
Damn. Wish I had previewed my post and caught that formatting error.
Smurf it! Smurf it all to hell!